Alicia: Hey, just a heads up: the
episode you're about to listen to

you is about the brood directed
and written by David Cronenberg.

Some relevant trigger warnings for this
movie include body horror, gaslighting.

Body horror.

Misogyny.

Body horror.

Child abuse and more body horror.

If you'd like to learn more about
the movie, discussed this evening.

Please visit our website,
progressivelyhorrified.Transistor.fm

for show notes and a transcript.

And after the spooky music, we'll
talk about the movie in full.

So be forewarned there will be spoilers.

Jeremy: Good evening and welcome to
Progressively Horrified, the podcast

where we held horror to progressive
standards it never agreed to.

Tonight we're talking about our
last Cronenberg movie of Cro-vember

The Truly Wild, The Brood.

I am your host, Jeremy Whitley
and with me tonight, I have panel

of Cinephiles and Cenobites.

First, they're here to challenge
the sexy werewolf, sexy vampire

binary, my co-host Ben Kahn.

Ben, how are you tonight?

Ben: Look, not to victim shame the
people in this movie, but I'm reasonably

confident that I could do a way better
job just fighting off tiny children.

Jeremy: Tiny, newborns at that.

Emily: Even tiny yeah.

Than ones-.

Ben: Nobody fights back in this movie.

They just writhe and scream
while getting lightly hit with

hammers and it's really silly.

Emily: Those kids could shoot
a paper weight through a wall

like it was fired out of a gun.

Ben: I saw that wall.

It was fucking two centimeters thick.

That was some shoddy-ass craftmanship.

Jeremy: Yeah.

For all the home improvement
shows that are hosted in Canada.

I mean, really That all
didn't seem that tough.

Emily: That's why they need improving.

Jeremy: Right.

I imagine that's the property
brothers hadn't, hadn't

been born yet at this point.

And the cinnamon roll of Cenobites,
our co-host, Emily Martin.

Emily, how are you tonight?

Emily: I'm doing all right.

I I have an announcement to make a
public service announcement, if you will.

If you have had any really bad gaslighting
experiences with doctors in the seventies

where you've grown gremlins out your back
and they kill without remorse, or thought

you may be entitled to compensation.

Ben: Is that the advertisement for
the lawyer that Art Hindel goes.

And I love that he calls him a mensch.

We get legit Jewish
representation in this movie!

There is a very Jewish lawyer and that
one police psychologist, Epic Jewfro!

In addition to, you know, the
inherent Jewish representation

of just being a Cronenberg movie.

Emily: Yes.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Uh, So as you said, this one is
written by David Cronenberg and is

directed by David Croton, Cronenberg.

It stars Oliver Reed, Samantha Eggar
giving just an amazing performance.

Emily: Hell yeah.

Jeremy: Emily says I have to read the
IMDB recap to you before I start the

full recap, because this one's nuts.

A man tries to uncover an unconventional
psychologist's therapy techniques

on his institutionalized wife
amidst a series of brutal murders.

Emily: And on Amazon, or no, I
think it was HBO Max that I was

watching it, it was just basically
divorce proceedings gone wrong.

Ben: We talked about, you know,
how Videodrome inspired Akira and

Crimes of the Future is almost uh,
Cronenberg doing his old victory

lap around all of like his imitators
and all the people he's influenced.

But I have to ask, did The
Brood inspire Kramer vs.

Kramer

?
Emily: No, because it was- Well, the
David Cronenberg said in an interview...

Ben: This movie came first.

Emily: It did?

Ben: This one came first.

Yes.

Emily: Shit, I thought he
said it was his own Kramer vs.

Kramer.

Ben: Well, I'm sure he said that later
on, but yeah 1979, the Brood in 19- oh.

1979.

Okay.

Same year.

Nevermind.

Emily: Okay.

Yeah, so he said it was his version of it.

I don't know.

Jeremy: It's definitely the Armageddon
slash deep impact of 1979 of, you

know, Kramer versus Kramer and The
Brood practically the same movie.

Ben: So, for what it's worth I am correct.

The Brood came out in June.

Kramer vs.

Kramer came out in December.

Kramer vs.

Kramer was a Christmas movie?!

What the fuck?

Emily: Sometimes it
gotta get real, you know?

Ben: Gave it a December 19th release slot.

What the fuck?

Yeah.

I mean, I imagine taking that
to your, your kid to Kramer vs.

Kramer on Christmas Eve not
knowing any fucking idea cuz

the internet doesn't exist.

Emily: Listen, at least that kid
isn't on the set of The Brood because

talk about a movie about therapy.

This is a movie that's going to
fund therapy, these poor kids.

Ben: Okay, So Jeremy, you asked was David
Cronenberg okay when he made this film?

And the answer to that is an emphatic no!

Emily: Absolutely not.

Ben: He has in interviews and in books
directly stated that the characters

of Frank and the daughter are based
off of him and his own daughter.

Nola is his ex-wife and the final scene
where the husband strangles her to death

was, and a direct quote, very satisfying.

Emily: Jesus!

Ben: So right out the gate,
is this movie feminist?

No!

Emily: Absolutely not.

Jeremy: There's, there's some wild stuff
going on in here, not just from a, like

divorce and feminism standpoint, but also
from a feelings about therapy standpoint.

Ben: The climax of this movie is a man
heroically choking his wife to death.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Emily: I don't know that heroically
is the word I would use, but he

does save the daughter by doing it.

But then, but yeah.

Well, we'll get there.

Let's go, let's go.

Jeremy.

Let's recap so we-

Jeremy: Alright!

Emily: Have some context.

Jeremy: Here's the recap.

We start with a demonstration
of psycho plasmic by Dr.

Raglan who is role playing the father
of another man who is self-harming

and he's helping him try and,
you know, talk through this stuff

by pretending to be his father.

People are watching this.

Part one of the people watching this
role play is Frank Carvath uh, Who is

our main character, who's here to pick
up his daughter, Candice or Candy, as

they will frequently call her throughout,
who's been spending the weekend with

her mother, who was at this institution
break, takes Candy home and finds

scratches and bruises all over her.

Frank wants to get full custody of
the kid and is willing to threaten Dr.

Raglan himself to do it.

Dr.

Raglan is not gonna do that and
says, you know, he's gonna cause his

daughter and his wife a lot of harm.

Then, as Frank goes to the lawyer we
talked about, there's a lot of real

MRA speaking points here of like, Oh,
you know, the government really, really

wants to keep kids with their moms.

They don't care about dads,
you know, they, they won't ever

give dad's custody of anything.

uh, Which like at some level is
true, but this kid also has lots

of visible wounds from her mother.

So that would be, I think,
a different situation.

Yeah.

Ben: For the record though,
we are not experts on Canadian

divorce law in the 1970s.

Emily: Also, Dr.

Raglan is a fucking demon.

Like, he is some kind of super villain

Jeremy: Thought you were
gonna say "smokeshow".

Ben: Oliver Reed is subsisting on a diet
entirely made of scenery in this movie,

.
Emily: And a yolk sac.

Don't worry - Don't
forget about the yolk sac.

It's important.

Ben: Oh, I, trust me, I
am actively repressing it.

Like as hard as I can.

Jeremy: So, uh, Frank takes Candy to
go stay with Nola's mom while uh, Dr.

Raglan puts Nola through a special session
where she's working through her rage

issues with her mother, who was abusive.

Raglan tells her to push through the
pain and come out the other side.

Meanwhile, something shows up at
the grandma's house and murders her.

Poor Candy finds uh, her dead grandma
and finds whatever killed her, which

at this point all we can tell about
it is that it's about two feet tall

and dressed like a Canadian child
cause it's wearing a puffy jacket.

And then uh, the when the police do
arrive and find her, because they're

investigating a broken window, she's
in deep sleep on her bed, won't tell

anybody what happened, just like
she won't tell them about any of

the stuff with the scratches before.

Nola's dad who is estranged after her
parents were divorced, comes into town

for the funeral of her now dead mother.

Just as we learned that Nola also resents
him for not stopping her mother's abuse.

Dad tries to go talk to
Nola about her mom's death.

And Raglan won't let him do it
because he's says that he's afraid

that you know, it won't be good
for her cause it's too traumatic.

Frank in the meantime is going
to visit a madman who is talking

to him about psychoplasmics
and is telling him about house.

Emily: He's not mad!

Jeremy: He's quite mad.

He's rolling, literally rolling around
on the floor and doing weird cardio while

Frank is talking to him in this section.

But-.

Ben: Look.

Jeremy: He does have point.

Ben: The man is mad.

But not because of the rolling, but
because of that fucking combover.

Emily: He's angry is what he is.

Jeremy: Well, he, he thinks that uh,
Raglan has given him lymphatic cancer

through the process of uh, psychoplasmics.

That's never really answered, but
it seems from, you know, other stuff

going on in the movie that maybe?

Grandpa wants to go back and fight the
psychologist and just invited Frank

to come over, help him but decides
to go hang out in the old house

and get drunk while he is waiting.

uh, Where he is then murdered by a
tiny gremlin using glass paper weights.

Frank shows up and finds the dead
grandpa and almost gets murdered

by this tiny gremlin as well.

Before the gremlin just runs out of power
and dies like a Duracell bunny, or I guess

it's an ener, like an energizer bunny.

Emily: Nothing could stop
the Energizer, Jeremy.

Jeremy: Yeah, so this,
he's a Duracell Bunny.

He does stop.

Yes.

Whew.

Right.

This is the point where things started
to get real weird and we go from like

having a commentary on things to uh,
really going into a long discussion

about what's up with this tiny child.

Cuz the autopsy doctor makes a real meal
out of talking about how messed up this

little kid gremlin is, has a feed sac in
its back that keeps it going, which is

apparently what ran out so that it died.

Has no genitals, no teeth,
and dun, dun, dun, no naval.

So it was never truly born.

It's destined to kill Macbeth
as far as I'm concerned.

Meanwhile Nola decides to call the house,
which seems like it shouldn't be okay.

And, uh, uh gets the teacher who is
staying there babysitting uh, the daughter

while the dad is out running these
various errands various murder errands.

Nola decides that's not okay, that the
teacher is there, calls her a bitch, and

says that she's trying to ruin her family.

The teacher for her credit.

When the dad comes back, when
Frank comes back, she's like,

I'm gonna ollie out of this.

I have no interest in
being part of this drama.

Do not call me.

I will see you a parent teacher night.

Ben: The teacher sees the red flags
and actually nopes the fuck out.

Emily: Yeah, I mean, bless her heart.

Jeremy: Frank tells Candy, It's gonna be
all better now cause the creature is dead.

The doctor sends all of his patients
away because he's going to do something

to focus on Nola, which also seems
to involve a gun at this point.

He's loading his gun and
bringing that around places.

The Gremlin shows up at Candy School,
beats her teacher to death with wooden

hammers, and then kidnap her and
in - this is probably the scariest

scene of this movie- The Small Children
walk down the side of a busy Canadian

highway through the ice and snow.

Frank finds out that the Doctor's Big
Breakthrough Experiment is with Nola,

but involves disturbed kids from the
work shed that she's taking care of.

Frank goes to Raglan to investigate.

Raglan tells Frank about the kids
and how The Brood are children of

her rage and react only to her rage.

Raglan tells Frank that
he's gonna go save Candy.

But in order for him to do that, he needs
Frank to keep Nola calm, because if she

gets mad the kids are gonna get real kill.

So Frank goes in and starts talking
to Nola, but cannot hold it together.

When Nola opens her hospital gown to
reveal her extra nipples and her uh,

external rage uterus, which she rips open
the amniotic stack of with her teeth, and

then licks the baby clean in front of him.

Frank can't handle this and
it's very visibly grossed out.

Men.

Am I right?

Ben: Okay.

I also could not handle this.

Her biting into it, I legit gagged.

I

Emily: mean, yeah, her biting into it.

Jeremy: The goo that
comes out of it is just-.

Ben: It is the world's
biggest and grossest gusher.

Emily: It was-.

Jeremy: Meat flavored gushers.

Ben: I hope whatever that liquid was
was like strawberry flavored something

cuz she had to lick so much of it.

Emily: This tomato sauce.

Jeremy: And this is the scene
where she is really killing it.

Like this actress is ripping
up the scenery, devouring

it, like she's doing so much.

Ben: She is giving it 110% in every scene.

Emily: She really is, She's
really carrying this movie.

That's the only feminist thing about
this movie is that she is the star.

Jeremy: Yeah.

She's barely in it and
she's easily the star of it.

Ben: By far the most
memorable part of the movie.

Jeremy: Oh yeah.

So Frank's obvious disgust
gets Raglan killed and-.

Emily: Good.

Jeremy: He gets-.

Ben: I'm still not sure how.

Like, I still don't understand what those
children do that causes Raglan to be dead.

They don't have teeth.

They didn't bite him.

They just like climb on him and
then blood appears and he dies.

Jeremy: They do apparently have weird
beaks inside their mouths though.

One of the things the mortician says he
says, It'll really hurt you if they bite

you, though they don't have any teeth.

So at this point after Raglan is
killed Nola says that she'd rather

kill Candice before, let Frank take her
away from her, at which point the rage

gremlins all get up together and turn
on Candice and start attacking her.

Candice to her credit unlike
anybody else in this movie,

knows how a door and a lock work.

And hides from them.

They're beating on the
door trying to kill her.

And the only solution is for
Frank to choke his wife to death

so that his daughter can survive.

You know, he kills her and then runs
up and finds the daughter huddled

in a corner takes her out in the
car and they, they drive away.

And the last sort of thing that
we see is that there are, you

know, new outgrowths on Candice.

And it looks like maybe she is
developing some sort of external

rage uterus thing as well.

The end.

Emily: Whew!

Okay.

Ben: Rage uterus.

That's the t-shirt.

Jeremy: Rage, uterus.

Emily: Rage uterus, I mean, Correct.

Just any rage, uterus
against the machine for real.

Ben: Primal rage, uterus.

Emily: You know, if, this movie is not
empowering I feel like somebody could,

isolate just the idea of a rage uterus
to create minions to go and kill the

people that fucked with you as like
something that might be empowering.

Sure.

Jeremy: Is that where
the minions come from?

Ben: This movie has no interest
in empowering Nola, though.

Like if anything that is the opposite
of the movie's goal, like I feel like

nine out 10 movies with that setup and
even that finale would've had Nola be

like, Oh, the screaming of my child.

I am full of regret and do a redemptive
jesusy self-sacrifice to save my child.

This movie does not even give
her like humanity in death.

It is just straight up like, well, I
guess I have perfectly arranged just the

situation where it is morally acceptable
for me to choke my wife to death.

Emily: Yeah.

And the other thing about this is that
it, it, this story is really focused on

the relationship of Nola and Frank, but
the real monster is Raglan, who is a

fucked up, self-involved piece of shit,
psychiatrist or psychologist, who is

completely, basically like a cult leader.

Ben: Oh, without a doubt.

And yet the movie is still way more
sympathetic towards him, than it is Nola.

Emily: Yeah, well, I mean, if you look at
it with the knowledge of the ramifications

of his practice, without the whole idea
of psycho plasmic, without the body

horror element at all, this movie is
terrifying just because of the abuse of

power that this man is, is utilizing.

And that's the only way that I can really
get into the movie being sympathetic

to Nola because she is being gaslit so
hard that she forms a bunch of gremlins

that kill without remorse or thought.

They, she basically animates her
rage into these, rage babies.

Ben: I think it says so much about, again,
what Cronenb erg's goal was, where his

head was at, that like, we don't see
the deterioration of this relationship.

We don't see when things were good.

We only get introduced to the story
when Frank has utterly written

off Nola, like left for dead, like
Full on wants to take the kid.

They are already so far into the
divorce, you can't see where the

love ever was in the first place.

Emily: Well, and also-

Ben: is not interested in just
giving any fucking humanity.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Mom and dad aren't giving
back together in this movie.

Emily: But also mom is
basically like a Kool-Aid slave.

To Raglan.

Yes.

You know, who is taking
advantage of the situation.

Like the whole thing with the public
therapy session with the role play,

even without getting like weird rage
rashes, that is fundamentally perverse.

Ben: There's definitely like an A24
version of this movie that either

doesn't have the body horror or
saves the body all the body horror

for like the last five minutes.

And it's just about this guy losing
his wife into like this mysterious

psychoanalyst cult that the further
he tries to get to his wife, the more

he loses his own sense of sanity.

That's definitely the A24 version.

Yeah.

But that requires, that requires Frank and
Nola to have, like Frank to have anything

but utter disgust and contempt for Nola.

Emily: And it's a little upsetting
with this kind of, I I don't know

if it's tone deafness or, just
neglects of those plot elements.

I mean, this movie is iconic in
its way, but I don't know if it's

Criterion Collection Iconic and that
is how it was presented on HBO Max.

So, I mean-.

Ben: No, that is David.

Emily: David Cronobo is good at stuff and
I like it, but this is not his best work.

This is like, I was
like, Scanners up there.

Not, not this.

Ben: This does not feel like, Ooh,
a new auteur has hit the film scene.

This feels like a strongly messaged
like, Canadian broadcast TV movie.

This does not feel like something that
should have gotten a theatrical release.

Jeremy: This is still
really early in his career.

Yeah.

You know, this is pre-Videodrome.

It's pre Scanners.

Um, You know, at this point he'd
made like rabid and peep show and

shivers and that was really about it.

Emily: Yeah.

Rabbit's supposed to be Criterion.

Ben: Halloween, October original movie.

Jeremy: Yeah.

This movie.

I feel like if you don't know
anything about it going in, it's

a really fascinating movie-.

Ben: Which I didn't.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Cuz throughout it I think you're like,
What are these creatures, What's going on?

Like, what is happening in this movie?

And-.

Ben: Accurate.

Jeremy: You could not have guessed.

Ben: No, I did not!

Jeremy: You could not, you could not have
said, I think I know what's going on here.

Even though like watching it back now for
the second time, I was like, Huh, okay.

They're kind of putting this all together.

I remember watching this the first time
and getting to like her little amniotic

sac in her lap and her ripping that open.

Me being like, What the fuck is happening?

Yeah.

Like this, this bizarre.

They just went real ham in like
the last 10 minutes of this movie.

Ben: Right.

The last 10 minutes?

Right from the beginning, that
opening scene, which is so fucked up.

The entire Michael character.

Holy shit.

But like that opening scene of just
like misogyny, gender masculinity,

I don't know, Just awful.

And then like, Oh, it's a play.

Okay, but it's just doing a play.

Oh no!

It's public therapy!

Emily: Public humiliation therapy!

Ben: At no point during, at any moment
of this movie's run time did I feel

like I had a firm grasp on what was
happening and where this was going.

Jeremy: Well, I feel like
throughout it, you're like, Okay,

Raglan is definitely the bad guy.

Like Raglan is making this happen somehow.

He's the one behind all
of these murders, clearly.

And then like you get to the end and
you're like, Oh, actually he's just

psychologist Frankenstein, and he's
made a monster out of this woman.

Like he has turned her into something
that produces evil gremlins and

he can't control it anymore.

Ben: Yeah.

How about Nola's bedroom where she
has pictures of famous psychologists

including Raglan, like on her wall,
Like they are like movie stars.

Emily: I mean, there's a lot.

That cabin also was not insulated.

talk about buildings with
two centimeter thick walls.

No wonder everyone's
wearing their parkas inside.

Jeremy: I mean the movie-
this movie looks fucking cold.

This looks cold all day long.

Yeah.

Ben: Oh yeah.

Like I feel like a lot of movies
like aren't really good at making

me feel like, Oh, these people
are cold and uncomfortable.

Every outdoors thing in this
movie, I'm like, Oh, it's

definitely like January in Toronto.

Mm-hmm.

. This sucks for everyone involved.

Emily: Bold earth tones, a lot of
gray and brown and some burgandy-ish.

Ben: There's just slush-.

Emily: Yeah.

Ben: In this movie and it works.

It's not a bad part, but it's
definitely like not intentional.

It's not like they're like, Ooh, we have
the budget to clear it out or create.

It's just, Well, this
is Toronto in January.

This is what it looks like.

Emily: Extra nihilism.

Ben: Oh man.

Emily: Just the bleakness.

Ben: Because everything must connect
to Crimes of the Future, which again,

as we've been watching all these other
movies, I am increasingly realizing is

just him fucking flexing so hard after
40 years of like increased filmmaking

where we talked about like, Oh, that
had a really weird striking opening and

that got me into the level of vibes I
needed to properly enjoy this movie.

This movie doesn't where the first
scene is very striking and confusing and

unnerving, but it doesn't vibe me in.

It's just really weird and uncomfortable.

Emily: It is incredibly uncomfortable,
and I think that is an attempt to make

Raglan like the fucking awful monster
demon that he is to present him that way.

The depiction of Raglan is
surprisingly neutral when we, when

it comes to just the focus on him.

You know, he is an asshole
and he is deplorable.

But in the film's conflict,
we don't know what he wants.

We don't know his motivation.

He's just doing some shit that is
questionable and gives no reason for it.

We don't get what his goal is in
his psychoplasmics or whatever.

We don't even get an explanation
of what psychoplasmics are.

Just context clues that, that are
something about a manifestation of

anger in your body and like, you know,
basically like being angry causes cancer.

Problematic.

Um.

Ben: That was such a weird scene
where he is talking about the lawsuit.

Yeah.

I still don't know what that
was about with that added.

Emily: I feel like that added, it
did add something because it did

show other victims of his therapy.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Get his role play talk therapy.

Ben: No, I mean, No, I totally understand.

It's not like, is that,
like that character?

Jeremy: It's like, and then he
hooks her up to a machine and

that's when things get weird.

It's just like-.

Ben: I understand having the scene of
that character, I just mean it's like,

and then we're gonna get real into
what this guy's legal pr strategy is.

Emily: I mean, I thought that that was,

Ben: Just, you know, he's very,
he's an eccentric, eccentric person.

Emily: Well, I also, I felt like it
was more like he is trying to fight

against this, like it's establishing
that Raglan is a rich asshole that

has a lot of people on his side.

But also that his, his therapy is so
weird and esoteric it's like anybody

who files for suits against these like
mi Miracle cures and stuff they get

their suits dismissed because people,
judges specifically and juries can't

identify why somebody would fall for
that shit when people do every day.

And I feel like that, I mean, that's
more of a compelling story to me

than, than like, the story of the
monster mom that became a monster.

That monstered all over her child.

Ben: Again, the cult stuff, like
the way he like isolates people from

their family, the way he like clearly
fosters and fuels delusions and

insert themselves into his patient's
lives in wildly inappropriate ways.

That is totally like true hot
crime podcast material into that.

But if I'm called into jury duty and
this man with a towel wrapped around

his neck comes and says like, that
psychologist is so good at therapy,

he made me give myself cancer.

Emily: I mean, you would have to,
change how you phrase it, but yeah.

I mean, and if I was him, I
wouldn't go into that, into

the courtroom with the towel.

I'd be like, Here it is.

Ben: You make the jury
look at that nonstop.

Emily: Yeah.

Hey, hey, jury before therapy with
him, I didn't have this goiter.

After that, I did.

You know, and that is honestly
like an, I mean, he is right about

that, just being the bad publicity.

Ben: I think if he wins that
lawsuit, fuck you can sue.

That sets a horrible legal precedent.

Emily: I think that's why
he felt like he couldn't.

Ben: You could sue you.

That would open you to be able to sue your
therapist for any illness you get during

your time as a patient for mental health.

That is a horrible precedent.

Yes.

Canadian mental health systems will
be devastated within five years.

Emily: Yeah.

Well, I mean, mental health already
sucks, but like, and you know, in Canada

too, like, don't get me wrong, yes, the
healthcare system is, is better than ours.

But-.

Ben: I'm a terrible movie critic.

I went into the fly being
like, your scientific practices

are sketchy, Goldbloom.

And now I'm debating like legal
strategy, legal precedent, Canadian

legal precedent in The Brood.

Emily: But this is something
that was considered.

I actually was pretty compelled.

I think his name was like Harlan or Haron.

The, I have it in my
notes, but I can't Hartog.

Yeah.

I was actually pretty compelled by that
character because it also gave us a

little bit of context of what was going
on and the effects of that treatment.

And also a discussion of these kind
of crazy like snake oil treatments

that people peddle that are happening
right now in this age of anti-vaxxing.

You know what I mean?

That said, this movie is
about the relationship.

It's not about this fucking cult leader.

And the cult leader gets got
certainly, but he does get

got trying to redeem himself.

He knows he like needs to be redeemed, but
it's like a too little too late situation.

Like that whole movie
happened on the side.

The one thing I can say about this
movie in terms of like feminism and

sympathy and stuff like that, is
that it is very obvious from the

get go that Candice is the biggest
victim of this whole situation.

Ben: Oh yeah.

Candice isn't much of a character.

She is a very, just like child actor.

Yeah.

But oh yeah, no, like, I mean,
that is what sets off the plot.

That is what makes Frank the protagonist,
is just he sees that harm has been done

to his child and everything else in the
plot is kicked off by him working to

make sure no harm comes to his child.

Even, or especially if he is gotta
choke his wife to death to do it.

Emily: Yeah.

No, he sucks.

Nobody understands children in this movie
and Candice is like regularly ignored.

Ben: Okay.

My favorite scene in the movie is after
The Brood kill the teacher, which by the

way, if those hammers are tough enough to
kill a teacher, I don't think they should

be in the classroom in the first place.

Emily: I mean-.

Ben: They should be very light plastic.

But again nobody except for
Hartog and Raglan even attempts

to fight back against The Brood.

They're just like, Well, I guess
I'm being murdered by a child.

But then after that, Frank rushes in, sees
the dead body, puts a drawing, we plan

both seeds drawing over the body, and then
we immediately cut to him rushing out.

Presumably having left a group
of children in a room with the

dead body of their own teacher.

Emily: Yeah.

Who's one of the most
decent people on this film?

Jeremy: Yeah.

I, I love the little kid who- who runs out
to tell Frank and is like, The bad kids

killed our teacher and then they left.

And it was like, What?

Emily: Yeah.

Jeremy: Frank's like that,
That doesn't seem right.

Emily: You know, I'm sure a lot of things
were done to make sure that the kids were

comfortable, but it doesn't change the
fact that they still were like watching

this dead body of this woman, you know?

Or the seeing like the body of
the woman on the ground with

the blood and seeing her attack.

Ben: No, he, the pumpkin
sea drawing over the body.

Emily: It's, they were watching Oh my God.

Yeah.

And then like, the woman who played
Candice is actually in a lot of movies.

I think she's fine.

I haven't done a huge amount of
research, but I did look her up.

People like, Is she okay?

Cause you know.

Jeremy: She was a kid in a lot more
movies after this and it's still been

in, you know, movies after that as well.

Emily: Yeah.

She was also in the Dead Zone,
I think, or or one of those.

Or Scanners.

Scanners or, Yeah, she was in a
couple other Cronenberg movies,

which I'm like, Jesus Christ.

Jeremy: I was reading up on this
movie, and I think this might

have broken Poor Oliver Reed a bit
because apparently he was arrested

during the making of this movie.

Because he made a bet that he could walk
from one bar to another without freezing,

completely stripped down and nude.

So.

Ben: Oh no, don't do that In Toronto.

I guess there's a lot
London, but not Toronto.

Jeremy: Yeah.

There's not a ton of fun
stuff to do in Canada.

I guess.

Emily: I mean, if-.

Ben: Oliver Reed has the
greatest first line of a

Wikipedia article I've ever read.

Robert Oliver Reed was an English
actor known for his well to do, macho

image, and hellraiser lifestyle.

Fucking what a boss.

Emily: He has such sights to show us.

Apparently.

Apparently he had some such sites
to show people in uh, Toronto.

Ben: Um, Oh, like a g.

Emily: How bad is healthcare?

Or I should say, how bad
is mental healthcare?

In Toronto that David Cronenberg
has to make movies instead of go to

therapy and all these people like
have to freeze themself in the snow

dealing with David Cronenberg's movies?

Ben: I, I don't think this is, I
don't think this is an access issue.

I think it's a men would rather launch
a film career than go to therapy.

Jeremy: Canada.

They really support the arts a lot.

So, you know, it might be cheaper to
just make a movie than go to therapy.

Emily: You know?

That's fucking real.

That's fucking real.

Wow.

A lot of people talk about moving
to Canada, but I've never really

con considered it until now.

This very moment.

Ben: Just make sure not to get the
package where it's like public theater.

That's the weirdest thing.

The public therapy.

They never explain or you go like,
Hey, that's not a thing that's

supposed to be open to the public.

Yeah.

What's up with that?

Emily: I feel like it's something that
he's trying to prove, like there's

this, this kind of through line that
he's trying to prove that it works.

Jeremy: He is, He's doing a surgery
theater there too, like Yeah.

It's not like they're
in a black box theater.

It's like, you know, I mean, people
looking down on them from all directions.

Ben: I don't know.

Is, is it better that they did not
pay tickets to see this grown man

transphobically bully, Another grown man?

Emily: Yeah.

I would hope that it is just one
of those things where it's like,

this works and this is why I, you
know, I'm transphobic as this guy.

Jeremy: This could have
been done in a PowerPoint.

Emily: Yeah.

Yeah.

Ben: That would've been weird enough.

But then they just had
to bring Michael back.

Emily: I mean, I'm glad that Michael,
we see Michael after that because we

know that whatever happened didn't work.

That we know that Raglan's full of
shit and he's giving people cancer with

his, I don't know, role play therapy.

That's the thing that-.

Jeremy: Raglan's just too good of an actor
that his acting, gives people cancer.

Emily: Yeah, I guess like he,
he makes people manifest their

rage as like physical ailments.

Jeremy: Small angry children.

Ben: He doesn't do voices or
costumes, which would've been great.

And yet he is got like Michael
and Nola, and presumably all these

other people where he just like on
a dime is like, I'm these people.

I'm your husband, I'm your
father, I'm your daughter.

Like I'm you.

Emily: Yeah.

Ben: And they just, especially Nola,
who is just like, again, given it

all an 11 totally like buy into it.

It seems to be like this.

Role play therapy thing, but also
Michael is now addicted to it and just

wants everyone he meets to be his daddy.

And it's, I don't, I don't know what's
going on, but it's it's a choice.

I'll tell you that.

Emily: I mean, it, it seems like Raglan
is making people dependent on him,

and he's got people like basically
brainwashed to be dependent on him.

Ben: After the biting into the
womb and all that shit, like the

thing that most creeped me out in
this movie was definitely like a

very bearded man like, like a child
begging people to be his daddy.

Jeremy: And you live in New York, that's,
I think that would be a daily thing.

Emily: Not like that though.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There has to be some prece-, there's some

Jeremy: Beggning people to be
their daddy in a non-sexual way.

Ben: Yeah.

Yeah.

Specifically in a non-sexual way.

Bearded dude.

Asking people to be his daddy in a
sexual way is a Okay, that's fine.

I'm into that.

Emily: Yeah.

Set the parameters.

Ben: Should have rephrased that
better, but we're powering through.

Emily: That's all good.

Ben: That's not this.

This is a five year old wanting-
This is a more childish than Candice.

Yes.

Like approach to it.

And it is just like, I am a 32 year
old, like a grown non-binary person.

And seeing Michael made me
go like, Oh, I need an adult.

Emily: Mm.

Yeah.

It did remind me of there
are certain cults like cult

practices that are, you know,
self-improvement programs or whatever.

That have this whole thing.

Ben: You can say, NXIVM,
they can't sue us anymore.

Emily: Well, it's not just NXIVM but
like there's all sorts of shit where

they do the whole thing of like breaking
you down to build you back up, which is

called programming is what that's called.

Um,

Ben: Also called us military training.

Emily: Yes.

I mean, like it's incredibly predatory.

Now the-

Ben: Probably shouldn't uh, pull
the thread on that sweater though.

Jeremy: Come at us NXIVM and
also the US military, I guess.

Alright.

Emily: All I have to say to the
US military is, I'm a fan of each

Ichigo Kurosaki and I will talk to
you all, all day about the Bankai.

Every dude I've ever known who's in
the military has loved bleach and that,

Ben: I feel like that context
would've been helpful earlier.

Emily: That's not how I
roll Ben you know, that.

Much like David Cronenberg you
gotta like come into the scene

Completely raw , but I do explain it.

This movie is-.

Ben: General Mattis if you could.

Do you like Kenpachi more?

Emily: Of course!

Anyway, so.

Jeremy: Terrible!

Ben: Terrible Manga.

I'm sorry.

It's not good.

If you like bleach, cool.

If you stopped reading after
Soul Society arc, Good job.

Emily: It looks good.

Ben: Oh, when the artist tries.

Yeah.

He is one of the best there's ever been.

Uhhuh . But after a certain point,
he very much decided not to try.

Um, Or was too under too much crunch.

Emily: Oh yeah.

Tite Kubo finish zombie powder, please.

There's some ableism guys.

Jeremy: I was gonna jump in there.

Let's start with the, let's start with
the easily answered question, which is it

is really not real big with queer issues.

Yes.

Like,

Emily: Oh yeah.

That whole transphobic completely
like, Oh my god, gender a

bullshit thing in the beginning.

Jeremy: The fact that it's him
supposed to be role playing.

This guy's dad, I don't know, like
whether it's meant to be transphobic

or just the character of his dad
is meant to be, you know, horrible

toxically masculine character.

What-.

Ben: Oh, in another pantheon of
uh, great and super empowered uh,

women characters in this movie.

We've got grandma who spends
half of her dialogue reminding

people that she likes alcohol.

Jeremy: Yes.

So does grandpa.

Ben: It's a big drinking family.

Also, did mom have a British accent.

Where did Nola's British accent come from?

Because the dad definitely
didn't have a British accent.

Emily: It was part of her programming.

Ben: I believe that Nola
is so fucking dramatic.

She just gave herself a British accent.

Yeah.

Jeremy: She's from the same
place as Madonna, you know?

Emily: Yeah.

She just met Björk and she's like, Oh yes.

That.

Jeremy: Aside from like the different
class in which, you know, this doctor

is likely from, I don't think there's
too much in the way of, of class

discussion in this movie, do you?

Ben: No, I don't.

So think we get a scene of Frank,
like his job, but like he runs a

construction company, so that's a white
collar job and a blue collar industry.

Yeah.

I can tell you owners of
construction companies are

not usually men of the people.

Yeah.

He's gonna be reflection on Frank or
anything, the movie saying, just saying

that is not a class thing going on.

Yeah.

Jeremy: Yeah.

They do very, like, they have him stroll
through one construction site at one point

in the story and then it is never really
relevant at all that he does construction.

Barely mentioned again.

Ben: Also, I feel like this movie
does show a good job about the

importance of grammar in journalism
because there's just a big headline

that says Police seek dwarf killers.

And I'm like, mm-hmm.

are those killers who are little people or
people who exclusively kill little people?

That's, it is not clear from the headline.

Emily: That's a good point.

Ben: It's not, I just appreciate that
they made up a fake newspaper prop.

Emily: Yeah.

I mean that's always-.

Jeremy: I cannot off the top of
my head, think of any non-white

people that are in this movie.

Am I forgetting somebody major?

Ben: It definitely gets a points
off for not having Brolley.

Emily: We miss Brolley.

Jeremy: Right.

Ben: Hashtag-.

Emily: Any form.

Ben: Hashtag justice for Brolley.

Emily: For real.

Where's Brolley?

Jeremy: Yeah.

Ben: Again, we do get some
uh, fun Jewish representation.

That whole spiel about the lymphatic
system, it's like, God damn Cronenberg.

That whole organ fetish
just keeps cropping up.

You, you couldn't you like, I feel
like he had tried to clamp it down

and then it just kept seeping through
the cracks in that man's comb over.

Which again, what was that hair
? What was makeup and wardrobe?

I guess that was the point cuz like
cancer, it was also just like the

wildest comb over I've ever seen.

Jeremy: I think he came in like that
and wardrobe was like, you know what?

Emily: Just keep it.

Jeremy: Perfect.

Emily: I mean he, he did do a-.

Ben: It was style Toronto at the time.

Everyone in Canada was
rocking this style in 1971.

Emily: Do you think that Raglan had also
some crazy growths and maybe his like

growths were giving other people growths?

Cuz he certainly wore the
hardest-corest turtleneck.

He might as well have been
wearing a towel around his neck.

Ben: I do.

If only because if he had gotten more
focused then eventually it would've

just been inevitable cuz he, at
that point, he would've just been a

straight up Cronenberg protagonist.

And that's just a requisite like, Yeah.

I guess after this movie, I guess
this is the one Cronenberg movie we've

seen where the body transformation
is not the inherent theme of it.

It is merely like this thing
he's clearly interested in.

Yeah.

But is just like the means
by which the plot happens.

It feels like it's the one movie where,
and we know why he has some very personal

things to be working through with this
movie, but that is the driving force

and then the body horror is incidental.

And then it seems like right after
this movie, the body horror becomes

the focus and the theme unto itself.

Emily: Well the, the body horror theme
here leans a bit simple, like in terms

of like, Family abuse and that being
carried through the generations because

the, growths that are appearing on
Candice at the very end of the movie show

that, you know, the cycle is continuing.

Ben: Yeah, there's definitely
no, I think you're totally right.

I think there is a sense that like
the physical transformations need

to have a correspond to something
thematic happening in the movie.

And then by the time you get to fly,
he's just like, Man, wouldn't it be cool

if Jeff Goldblum spat goo on things?

Jeremy: Yeah.

I mean, Fly is also, you know, a remake.

It's one of his few.

It's not just him working
from whatever's in his head.

Fly is like, Ah, yeah,
this, I remember this movie.

Let's make it more fucked up.

Ben: And he succeeded.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I, This movie does not, does not
have a great handle on mental health.

Clearly.

Cronenberg is not a fan of
psychology or psychologists.

Ben: I mean, I can only assume that
there's some basis of truth in Dr.

Raglan, or at least in Cronenberg's
perspective of, I mean, just

because the movie is just so fucking
allegorical to his real life.

I can't imagine that a mental health
professional he did not, like, didn't not

play a role of some sort in his divorce.

But uh, I mean, it, it is just so weird.

I mean, look, this isn't the first movie
that we've watched where it's clearly

the director working some shit out.

But is it the first where the director's
flat out come out and told us, this

is the exact stuff I was working out.

Emily: I mean, In terms of, of David
Cronenberg himself, the individual,

ah, this is a little bit more
direct than crimes of the future.

Jeremy: I was working out
how I want somebody to cut

into me and take stuff out.

Yeah.

How that would be sexy.

Emily: I'm really in a knife play.

Yeah, I- let's roll.

Ben: Knowing Cronenberg in
the future, like what lies

in store in his filmography.

I have to look at him in this point in
his life and I'm like, to what degree

is this a self-serving interpretation?

To what degree was the knife play
desire already there and you're not

fucking mentioning it in this movie
with your good guy Dad, Frank??

Jeremy: Yeah.

I mean, I, mentioned during the recap,
there's definitely this point where he's

talking to the lawyer where is really
verging on some MRA talking points.

If you don't know men's rights activists.

Oh, yeah.

There's A lot of like, Oh, well,
you know, they tend to favor

the mother over the father.

And it's like, yes, that's true,
but if you have like clear visual

evidence that the mother is abusing the
child, that's a different situation.

Like, yeah.

That's not-.

Ben: We assume, again, not experts
in 1970s Canadian divorce law.

Emily: Yeah.

And, and the Raglan situation also tweaks
it a bit like we are not sure how much

influence Raglan has over the system.

You know?

I mean, he's obviously a rich asshole, so
like you could probably pull some strings.

Also there's not a lot of effort
made to get Nola out of that

situation just to like keep her-.

Ben: Because he doesn't give a shit
about, he has already written her off

by the time the movie even starts.

Yeah.

Again, this movie has no sympathy
or interest for in Nola and it is on

this strength of Samantha Eggar alone
that she, that the character shines.

Jeremy: Well, Like I do think that
there is some sympathy in there.

I do not think it is
regarding the frank situation.

When they're going through her
issues with her mom and her issues

with her dad, I do think that
the movie does feel bad for her.

It does, you know, say that, oh yeah, her
parents were wrong and they were fucked up

and it was fucked up what happened to her.

And there is I think the implication
that that's why she's so fucked up now.

Ben: So our argument is that Cronenberg
is sympathetic to his ex-wife when it

lets him shit on his in-laws instead

.
Emily: I mean, the, there's the narrative.

We just can't ignore the narrative of
being manipulated by the therapist.

David Cronenberg talks a lot about
the therapist manipulating people

and sometimes plays a therapist
doing that specific thing.

Mm-hmm.

Ben: Sometimes he's on, does that in
Star Trek and he talks to Michelle Yeoh.

Emily: Yeah.

And makes her disassociate so
hard that she loses her bodies.

Oh, spoilers.

Sorry.

Ben: That did happen and I was sad
when she left, but then everything

everywhere all at once came out
and I'm like, that was a good call.

Yeah.

That was worth it.

Michelle Yeoh, I am much, I would
much rather you make that movie than

continue being an underused supporting
character in Star Trek Discovery.

Emily: And she did facilitate the
appearance of basically a time

Lord in Star Trek, which was, which
ended up being the the Guardian

of Forever, which was dope.

Ben: And it was like the best
episode in the series because it

was just like all Michelle Yeoh.

Yeah.

Jeremy: And they were also like,
What if we make an entire episode

that's a callback to the best
episode of original Star Trek?

Like.

Emily: I mean, that was what
Discovery started trying to do.

And it took it a while, but it was
like, took a very meandering path.

But finally when it decided that it
was not going to adhere to like the

original Star Trek timeline anymore.

Mm-hmm.

, which is the best thing they
could have done with that show.

And then they finally did it.

Like they, they, you
know, it was like therapy.

Like they finally just
reduced their baggage.

Jeremy: They let it go like Elsa.

Ben: Yeah, they keep trying to do, not
to get further off topic of Star Trek,

but they keep trying to just come up
like different premises for stuff.

And I'm like, just do
next, Next Generation.

Just be like, it's a new enterprise.

It's a different century.

We're a few centuries forward, new
crew and they're still just doing

enterprise stuff, but we've moving
the timeline along so everything

can be new and fresh in Discovery.

E

Emily: I mean, the, the fucking fucking
Mushroom drive to me is so whack.

It's so like-.

Ben: I like the Mushroom Drive.

I'm a fan of the Mushroom Drive.

Emily: No, I'm also a fan of it.

It's just so like, it's so
Brian Fuller of being like, Hey

you guys, you know, it's cool.

Jeremy: Mushroom.

Emily: Mushrooms.

Did you know that Mycelia can
feel you walking wherever you are.

And there's a network of mycelia that
it breaches across all of Mycelia

and apparently it's on the quantum
level, everywhere in the universe.

Ben: I just imagine like
it being an actor, like.

Who plays one of the bridge crew, like
being the pilot and being like, Oh boy,

see I've been on this show for five years.

Are we gonna get into
my character this year?

And the showrunner is just looking
at her in the face and going, No!

Emily: And Brian Fuller was Audi.

Anyway.

Ben: Oh yeah, Yeah.

One day they'll reveal it.

Anyway, this can all be, we can cut off.

Anyway, this is diggressively horrified.

This is, this is just us shooting
the shit about Star Trek.

Emily: We needed a little bit of a of
a, we need a bit of a break from The

Brood, a brood break, if you will.

Ben: Okay.

Yeah, I can't get over that nobody
fights back against it like that.

Grandma is just like, and I know she's
a grandma and I know she's like a

few drinks in which she really just
like rolls around on the floor and

screams until she gets like bloody
enough for it to count as dead body.

Emily: I think that these
kids are supposed to be super

strong and that brings up.

To me the real dodgy ass
representation of these kids as

quote-unquote "deformed" children.

Where someone says, I can't
remember who says it in the movie.

It might have been Frank, who says
they're just freaks, not great.

The doctor that-.

Jeremy: Pretty 1979.

Emily: Yeah.

It's, it's very dismissive of any
sort of condition the children

have to deal with in real life.

Like the cleft palette thing.

The fact that the autopsy doctor is
like quizzing them of like, what else

do you think is wrong with this child?

Let's play operation.

Ben: There's four things
wrong with this dead body.

Can you find them all?

Yeah.

What's wrong?

Jeremy: When you know the answer.

Ben: Yeah.

I loved when the grandpa goes back to
the house, which is still an active crime

scene, but has been completely cleaned up
except for the tape outline of the body.

Jeremy: I mean, these wanders
around the house drinking,

Emily: Are you sure that was a tape
outline or it was just Keith Harring

was there cuz it was a very, very modern

Yeah.

I, Keith Haring, you miss you.

I'm

Jeremy: fascinated, I think by the
central concept of this story, which

we don't know is a central concept
until the very end that this woman

who has been like tormented her whole
life has such like unmitigated rage in

her that she cannot continue to like,
that she cannot live a happy life.

The only way she can be calm is to
expel it into these evil children.

And, you know, they become sort of these
you know, foot soldiers that go out and

do the things that she's not brave or
strong and or whatever enough to do.

Emily: Well, that she's
not empowered to do.

Yeah, for sure.

Ben: I have more background
info about this movie and it's

relationship to Kramer vs Kramer.

Oh boy.

All right.

So while this movie while The Brood
came out first part of the impetus

for making it was Cronenberg did find
out about the production of Kramer vs.

Kramer and was apparently so unhappy
that was, or disillusioned that it

showed a family finding a way to still
have some sort of stable coexistence

after divorce that he decided he was
gonna show what divorce was really like.

Emily: Rage Uteri!

Ben: And so he made The Brood.

Emily: Listen.

Sometimes people, I will say
sometimes people are toxic, that

you really just need them out.

I mean, if, if someone is abusing your
child that said, Frank sucks, Nola

sucks that kid is still shit canned.

Jeremy: I don't know that Frank sucks.

He's just nothing you know,

Emily: Inaction is just as bad.

Jeremy: But he is a, he's a single
dad at this point and who's trying to

like, find a way to investigate all
this stuff that's going on, figure

out what's going on with his wife.

Ben: And gets his house built on time
so the family can move in in June.

Jeremy: Yeah.

And, and do his real job.

He has to hand off the kid a little
bit just to try and keep like the

drunk grandfather from killing
himself by driving off a bridge.

Like Sure.

I mean, he's trying.

Emily: That's, that was probably
one of the more like, engaging with

the teacher was one of the more
responsible things that he did.

And it was mentioned in the beginning
of the series or the beginning

of the show that he was missing
the PTA meetings for a while.

And that might have been because like,
no, I don't know if Nola was there at the

meetings either or whatever, but like,

Ben: no, that never comes up again.

We never get a, we never get
any resolution to the, Why is

Frank missing PTA meetings?

Mystery.

Emily: Well, because he sucks.

That's pretty much it, I think
is just, cuz he's like, he

doesn't, I mean, it's hard.

I know, but the one person that, that
Candice smiles around is the teacher.

Ben: Why did he give the teacher
a copy of Raglan's book when

he left a check on the grandpa?

Emily: Probably cuz he had this,
the only book that he owns.

He hadn't explained any of this
shit to her and was like, I'm

gonna explain this shit to you.

When I get back from saving
my father-in-law, from

driving off a cliff drunk.

Ben: I was hoping he would come back and
he would just be like, Hey, I've read this

book and since you provided no context,
I just absorbed it and I'm interested.

I'm gonna go also go check it out.

Jeremy: I thought for sure it was
gonna be a situation where she was

like, I read his book and I can help
you solve the mystery by knowing that

this thing, this thing and this thing.

But no.

Emily: He probably didn't read
the book and was hoping that she

would like tell him what's in it.

Ben: It didn't have any pictures.

Yeah.

.
Emily: And then, I mean, that would've
been cool, but like she probably would've

explained to him the book if Nola
hadn't called and jumped to conclusions,

which like she's already unstable.

Yeah.

She shouldn't be allowed to call.

Ben: It was headed in that direction.

Like Frank was definitely gonna sleep
with that teacher if given the chance.

And she seems to also think it was
heading that direction cuz she's

like, There's too much going on for
me to be in your life right now.

Yeah.

Like she was looking for some dad.

And apparently Frank is the cream of
the crop of single dads in Toronto.

Jeremy: God, I mean, I can
believe that, honestly.

Yeah, I mean, I, I think Frank is mostly
just a, a big pile of nothing because he's

really just there to be David Cronenberg
and you know, David Cronenberg is trying

to get those people moved into that movie.

I do wonder also if The Brood is, is
David Cronenberg's evil rage baby?

Ben: Oh man.

But no, I believe, I believe about him
being a bit of a, nothing of a character.

What does a lot of heavy lifting for
his character is just how simple yet

understandable his motivation is.

Like his daughter's being hurt,
he wants to get to the bottom and

stop his daughter from being hurt.

Yeah, like it is a simple, easy to follow.

Compelling motivation that makes up
for, there is really nothing else

compelling about this character.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Which I think like that leads very much
into our last question here about whether

this movie is worth seeing, because
the only thing I would really recommend

this movie for is those last 10 minutes.

Like Samantha Eggar's performance
in this section is outstanding.

Like the movie has to go an hour and
10 minutes to, for you to get to this

hard left turn it takes at the end.

But like her villainous monologue here,
her like ripping open that thing with

her teeth and like licking the baby clean.

Ben: That shit was wild.

Wild.

It's so,

Jeremy: she's so good and she's like
straight up fandom of the opera levels of,

of, you know, singing it to the rafters.

So I'd almost say just like skip
the first hour of the movie.

Emily: I will watch it just to,
because the buildup is not gonna be-.

Ben: That's fair.

I mean, the buildup is
honestly pretty weak.

Like it's a confusing kind
of silly horror movie.

Like honestly surprisingly,
traditional horror movie from

Cronenberg that isn't very good.

It's like, it's not compelling
kills, It's not a scary monster.

The scenes aren't particularly tense.

And you're right, it's only once we
start getting like, you know, the real

cronenberg shit with like external wombs
and all that, and like licking babies

clean, that starts getting like, you know,
actually like unique and interesting.

Emily: There's some imagery stuff
there that I think and some horror

elements that are worth exploring.

They're so muddled in this movie with
the whole commentary on psychology.

Like There is something there, there
is some, you know, just with the

imagery and the image of the mother
licking her, like murder, baby clean.

Like there's, that's cool.

The whole-.

Ben: That was all, everything
with the womb was gross.

And then the second grossest thing in
the movie is the spelled orange juice

and milks that like, mix it together.

That's pretty gross.

You mix milk and orange juice.

I think that's, that is just
like a crime against nature.

Mixing milk and orange juice.

Emily: There was some weird shit
there where I, I thought like, it

was supposed to be like a, a red
herring where it was the milk man

trying to like, cause the milk came
through that panel and I'm like-.

Ben: I don't know where
that milk was being kept.

Like did The Brood crawl through the wall,
but specifically where the fridge was.

So they had to also
dig through the fridge.

That seems way more inefficient
than going through a window.

Yeah.

Emily: Which they eventually.

Ben: Her orange juice
and milk by the window.

Emily: Maybe she was just keeping
it outside because it's cold.

You see it

Ben: is Toronto.

Yeah.

And I, I think the, Yeah,
they had fridges in shit.

They definitely had fridges in 1970.

Emily: Yeah.

I think that the um, the movie is
incredibly dated when it comes to how

they define the deformed children.

Uh, you know, in terms of representing
disability and things like that you

know, having these kids have the cleft
lip and being like toothless and...

David Cronenberg could have made
some terrifying, weird shit that was

not referential to like conditions
that people have to deal with.

Jeremy: Yeah, I think, I feel right.

There was an intention there with some of
the ways in which the child is deformed.

I think the, You're right was like a, I
think it was like a design choice in they

hadn't fully formed, they weren't children
who had had formed in, you know, a normal

way, I think is what he was going for.

Yes.

But I think combining that with also
they don't have genitalia is like, is

weird in a way that doesn't need to be,

Ben: Yeah.

But I will say overall though,
the design isn't that memorable

or compelling or creative Yeah.

You know, from Cronenberg whose designs
an imagination are usually, you know,

like on a whole other level, these
are just some like weird looking

kids and some weird looking masks
for all like intents and purposes.

And look, maybe part of that is like
child labor laws and like you're

only allowed to put so much shit on
like a child actor in terms of makeup

and prosthetics, but it's just not a
very good look for your main monster.

Emily: Yeah.

You know, if they were like faceless-.

Ben: The winter coats-.

Emily: Or something-.

Ben: It was like people were
being attacked by off-brand

South Park action figures.

Emily: I thought that was good.

I like that because, you know,
you couldn't tell from the back.

Like they just were kids from the back.

But then you look at their
faces and it's like a weak mask.

If they had like shit coming off of
their, like they had trunks or something.

I don't know.

Like

Ben: I, I do love when the two just
fucking stroll up to the classroom.

Like not being horror monsters, just being
fucking like gangster assassin, just like

hammering nola, hammering the teacher
and be like, Nola says hello, walk out.

Emily: In Toronto.

Kenny kills you.

Jeremy: I think we came
down on the not necessarily

recommended side of this, right?

Like,

Ben: I mean, look, if you're a
Cronenberg fan, absolutely need to

watch a Made for Canadian TV horror
film, Fucking Blood and Donuts.

Emily: Yes.

And David Cronenberg is there.

Ben: Yeah, it's it's still
a Cronenberg movie even!

Jeremy: Technically.

Yeah.

There's no psychic
Vampire Sex in The Brood.

Emily: Right?

And that psychic vampire
sex was consensual.

Jeremy: Maybe.

Well, what do we have to
recommend for people this week?

Ben: Marriage Story.

Emily: Gremlins.

Ben: No further, no further explanation.

Emily: Kramer versus Kramer.

Ben: Just the Kramer episodes of Seinfeld.

No.

Yeah.

Don't focus on Michael Richardson.

I do like how time is exposed that I.

Jason Alexander and Julie Lewis
Refu were definitely the most

talented comedians of the bunch.

Oh yeah.

Jeremy: And the best people I think, too.

Yeah.

I mean, not that like Jerry
is abysmal as a person, but he

Ben: made B movie.

Jeremy: Sure.

He sure did.

And

Ben: Ray was the bad guy who,
because he ran a honey company.

Jeremy: Okay.

So are we, are we really, We're
recommending Gremlins and-.

Ben: I'm recommending B movie starring
Jerry Seinfeld and Ray as himself.

I don't know why Raya didn't
play a honey executive.

Why it had to be Ray Liotta as
himself as an evil honey executive.

Emily: If you wanna watch something
that's about psychiatrists or,

and or psychologists, I get
them mixed up all the time.

Psychologists, I think is actually,
if you wanna watch something about

psychologists being crazy weird, just
watch anything with Hannibal in it.

Manhunt even.

Jeremy: And a psychiatrist
can give you drugs.

Psychologists are about like
the star formations and stuff.

Ben: I have a legitimate recommendation.

Emily: That's astrologer.

Jeremy, let's

Jeremy: Sure.

Sure.

Ben: A legitimate recommendation.

Check out the podcast the Shrink
Next Door, which is a whole podcast

about an abusive psychologist who
really did abuse and manipulate and

control his patients for his own gain.

Emily: I'm actually, my recommendation is
inclusive therapists.com because they have

a lot of really actually good therapists
on there, and we don't have to perpetuate.

The narrative of therapists
that are completely predatory.

I know a lot of people, a lot of queer
people who've gotten good therapists

that they love on that website.

So, you know, this is what David
Cronenbreg should have had.

But, you know, do love Videodrome.

I'm glad he did make the movies.

Jeremy: He couldn't have an
inclusive therapist via vhs.

I don't think that
would've worked as well.

Yeah.

Uh, What I wanna recommend this
week is a uh, movie that just

came out on shutter this week.

It is called Resurrection.

It stars Rebecca Hall and Tim Roth.

It is about a uh, woman and
her daughter who uh, you know,

she's a very protective mother.

We don't know why immediately at
first until uh, she starts seeing a

man that freaks her out to sea around
the place and then approaches him

and we find out that he is her ex.

Something he was manipulating her as
a teenager and uh, did a whole bunch

of like heavy duty cult stuff, a lot
of which is extremely troubling in the

movie, but, you know, conditioned her to
want to please him to do these kindnesses

for him, which were increasingly
horrible things that he would have her

do tests of endurance and things like
that to to help, you know, be his muse.

It's a rough watch in places,
but it was extremely good.

And Rebecca Hall in particular gives just
a phenomenal performance in this movie.

So like it's definitely worth watching.

It's one of the, the top rated
horror movies to come out in 2022.

It's mostly a big suspense
thing, but oh boy.

It is, it was a hard watch and one
that I would definitely recommend

people check out if that description
does not freak you out already.

noted.

Yes.

Heavy, heavy, heavy duty gas lighting.

Yeah.

On a whole different level.

Alright, I think that does
it for us for this week.

You can find Emily at Mega Moth
on Twitter and at mega underscore

on Instagram and at megamoth.net.

Ben is on Twitter at ben the kahn
on their website benkahncomics.com.

And as for me.

You can find me on Twitter and
Instagram at Jrome58 and on my

website at jeremywhitley.com.

And of course, the podcast is on
Patriotic, progressively horrified on our

website@progressivelyhorrifiedtransistor.fm
and at Prog Horror Pod on Twitter where

you can hit us up and tell us all about,
you know, what you liked, what you didn't

like about the movies, about the podcast.

We would love to hear from you.

You know, come, come chat us up.

And speaking of Loving to hear from you,
we would love it if you'd reviewed this

podcast wherever you're listening to.

It goes five stars so that more
folks can find us and we can get

out there to a larger audience.

Well we didn't have a guest this week,
but thank you as always to Emily and Ben

and thank you to all of you for listening.

Emily: Well, it's always a pleasure
to be here and you know what?

Very merry Cro-vember to you.

You're done.

We can watch other things now.

Ben: Hooray.

Done with the works of David Cronenberg.

Just kidding.

Tune in next week for
A history of Violence.

Jeremy: Oh, God.

Ben: No, we're not doing that.

Jeremy: And I'm like-.

Ben: We're not doing that.

Jeremy: I'm surprisingly just glad to be
done with David Cronenberg at this point.

Like I, I like David Cronenberg.

Four movies of his Back to Back is a lot.

Ben: It's a real deepdive
into the mind of the man.

Emily: Yeah.

Like body horror is something
that really shouldn't be binged.

Ben: And, and yet, binge it we did.

Jeremy: Yes.

On the other hand, for December, we're
gonna start talking about some Draculas.

So.

Ben: Yeah!

Emily: Dracula December Baby!

Ben: Y'all, did you know there's a Gerard
Butler movie where he plays Dracula?

Jeremy: Oh yeah.

I knew this.

Emily: I think so, Yes.

Ben: Christopher Plumer plays Van Helsing.

Emily: Do they kiss?

Ben: I don't believe so.

Jeremy: I kind of wanna see the movie.

That's the black and white opera
with the Chinese man is Dracula.

I'm interested in that.

Emily: I'm, I have, I don't know what
you're talking about, so I am interested.

Ben: Yeah.

I don't know, but I'm gonna say if they
can make a movie where Tony Lang plays

of Dracula, that would be real dope.

Let Tony Lang play uh, Dracula.

Emily: Yeah.

Have we done the full outro?

Jeremy: Guy Madden movie?

Ben: Yeah.

We've done the full outro.

Okay.

Yeah.

Jeremy: Dracula Colon,
Pages of a Virgin Diary.

Emily: Hmm.

Jeremy: Wild.

Emily: Sounds about right.

Yeah.

Speaking of wild, we should talk about
Wendell and Wild before too long.

Jeremy: Oh man.

I would love to talk
about Wendell and Wild.

Yes.

Emily: Also, I, I would love to
hear y'all's thoughts on, there's

an episode of of the Cabinet of
Curiosities by Gamble del Toro that

is directed by Anna Liliana Mcco.

And it's really interesting, and I
absolutely want to talk about it with

someone, maybe on the podcast, maybe not.

That the episode is like
really dense with themes.

And I would love to hear
people's reactions to it.

It's the fourth episode of
a Cabinet of Curiosities.

Jeremy: I will have to check that out.

I want to check out.

Series.

At some point I had to promise Alicia
that would chill out on horror movies

bit after, doing 41 in October.

Yeah.

She's got another movie coming out...

.
Ben: Are we still doing, is
this still part of the episode?

Jeremy: Wait, I didn't say my thing.

Until next time.

Everybody stay horrified.

Alicia: Progressively horrified
as created by Jeremy Whitley

and produced by Alicia Whitley.

This episode featured the horror squad.

Do you hear me?

Ben and Emily.

All opinions expressed by the
commentators are solely their own

and do not represent the intent or
opinion of the filmmakers nor do they

represent the employers, institutions,
or publishers of the commentators.

Our theme music is epic darkness
by Mario Cole oh six and was

provided royalty free from Pixabay.

Thanks for listening.

Bye.

Emily: Sorry, Alicia.