Alicia: Hey, just a heads up.

The episode you're about to listen
to is about perfect blue directed by

Satoshi Kon and written by Sadayuki
Murai, Based on the novel by Yoshikazu

Takeuchi and translated by Rika Takahashi.

Some relevant trigger warnings for
this movie include depictions of rape.

Stalking violence and mental illness.

And our hosts have ranked this movie
as existentially disconcerting.

If you'd like to learn more
about the movie, discuss this

evening, please visit our website.

Progressively horrified.transistor.fm.

For show notes and transcripts.

After the spooky music, we'll
talk about the movie and full.

So be forewarned, there will be spoilers.

Jeremy: Good evening.

And welcome to progressively
horrified the podcast where we won

horror to progressive standards.

It never agreed to tonight.

We're talking about a movie I think we've
literally been referencing since the

first episode and I didn't even see it
until now, satoshi Kon's Perfect Blue.

I am your host, Jeremy Whitley
and with me tonight, I have a

panel of cenophiles and cenobites.

First, they're here to invade your
house and find queer content in

all of your favorite movies, my
co-host and comic writer, ben Kahn.

Ben, how are you tonight?

Ben: I will admit my analysis of
this movie might be impacted in that

this is such a goddamn mind fuck.

I don't necessarily know what
happened or what is real or

what isn't real, or if I'm real.

Emily: Success.

Jeremy: Assuming that
uh, we are in fact real.

We also picked her up at the
spooky crossroads of anime

and sexy monster media.

It's cohost and comics,
artists, Emily Martin.

How are you tonight, Emily?

Emily: Uh,

I will quote this film by saying,
why do all psycho thrillers made

in Japan turn out this way?

Jeremy: well, Before we jump into it
too much we're gonna do a quick recap.

Now, Emily has drawn the short
straw tonight to try and make this

movie make sense to everybody.

So, Emily, take it away.

Emily: Well, to start, we're gonna
talk about some of the stats.

This is by Satoshi Kon.

Now we may know and love Satoshi
Kon for his psychological

thrillers and Tokyo godfathers.

But I have discovered tonight that
his animation debut, both directorial

animation and writing debut was in
fact three episodes of the 1993.

JoJo's bizarre venture.

There's a free one.

Ben, that one's

Ben: for you.

Get the fuck out.

Which part?

Wait he was, oh my God.

Was he on like the, like the ova?

I didn't look up what it had.

Look, it was either that or the Phantom
blood movie that has never been released.

Emily: It's never,

It was three episodes.

And apparently he also did storyboards
for another one that was about Iggy.

The fool.

Yeah.

They're part

Jeremy: of D's world apparently.

Emily: Oh yes.

The more, the most important world.

Ben: Oh yeah, shit.

Those OVAs are fucking epic
if you haven't seen them.

Emily: Yes.

Jo's bizarre adventure does
what it says on the tin.

you know, it's basically called
here's a fucked up story.

And not so much a psychological
thriller in the way that Perfect Blue

is, but still arguably psychological.

Ben: Yeah.

To.

Recommend another podcast.

I appeared on an episode of
comics, inebriated hosted by a

friend of the show Leona Kaus.

And I got mad drunk on tequila
and spent about an hour talking

nonstop about Joe Joe's.

So check out that episode
of comics inebriated.

If you want to hear me have
a lot of thoughts about Jojo.

Emily: Oh my God.

I do.

The only thing that would keep me from
listening to that is the fact that I can't

interact with you while listening to it.

But other fun fact about Toshi con
is he's the understudy of a qui or

Tomo who some of us know from aura.

Apparently Jeremy has never seen Aira.

Jeremy: I'm aware of Akira.

I've just never watched

Emily: it.

You're academically familiar with IRA.

Jeremy: There's a guy, a bicycle.

I mean a motorcycle motor I'm

Ben: clamping down, but that's
one of those movies where my

reaction is to go like gasp.

You've never seen blank.

Like the obnoxious film bro douche.

I am, I slap, could slap somebody.

My

Jeremy: excuse is very concrete on this
one, which is by the time I was of an

age that it was appropriate for me to
watch Akira everybody that I would've

watched it with had already seen it
because they all watched it before.

They probably should watch that movie.

Emily: Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, for sure.

For sure.

I'm with you there.

I sh I watched this movie Perfect
Blue before I should have,

because I watched it in 1998.

And I was 16 years of age.

But anyway, so, so the movie is
based on a book By uh, Yohi Kazu

Tachi translated by AKA Takahashi.

And it's called perfect du brew.

KA HEI.

Don't be alarmed by the name
because that translates to Perfect

Blue, complete metamorphosis.

And now we are going to find out why.

Oh, also it starts Jim ho well, if,

Ben: if that is the case, I've either been
reading anime porn or Kafka very wrong.

Emily: I don't think you've, I don't think
that there's a disparity as much of a

disparity as you think that there might be

Ben: Alexa, Google Kafka, hand,

Emily: Mr.

Sansa fucks, and we all know that, right.

Okay.

I will take your silence as a yes.

Okay.

So let's get into this movie.

I'm gonna explain what happens.

So perfect.

Blue is about.

Mima Keita Goway and she's a
perfectly normal not blue yet.

Young woman singing for a small
time pop trio called Cham.

She has a decent following and
incredibly enthusiastic and

charming fans that's sarcasm.

But she dreams of more or does she, we
don't know, actually we do, but Mima wants

to become an actress and as she's being
encouraged to do so by her agent, Coto her

manager, Rumi, former puff star herself
is intent that MENA should still sing.

Meanwhile, Mima is faxed cyber threats
after she has announced her final

performance with Cham She lands a
one line cameo in a popular SVU like

crime series called double bind.

Her one line is who are you, which
is very important to this film.

And she also learns about the
internet from Rumi because she has

weird fan mail about how they're
always watching her room BMI's room.

While Rumi is talking about this
at the TV set, uhto suffers a minor,

but upsetting injury from a letter
Bob that's been addressed to Mima.

So already off to a great start.

So apparently someone has made a Mima fan
page along with a blog that follows Mima's

daily routine down her right down to her
grocery list written in first person.

How cute it's the future,
by the way, this is 1997.

And Mima is using Netscape navigator on
a freshly unpacked Macintosh performer.

Yes, this is yet another gruesome
crime thriller sponsored by apple

while Mima is being cyber bullied
turns out the remaining do of

Cham has finally hit the charts.

Reality begins to break down.

As fans begin to complain about
Mima's minimal acting career, all

walls buying her merch classic fans.

We see stalker Mr.

Me-Mania.

That is his name in the film
lurking in a totally cool and

by no means unsettling way.

Todd Coto has been harassing in a
less unsettling way, but marginally

still unsettling the producer and
brighter of double bind to give

Mima a bigger part, which eventually
she does get a bigger part.

It's a rape scene.

So sorry everybody.

Rumi.

And tototo argue over this Mima
agrees to do the scene as the

role may be a career breakthrough.

Her reflection, however, has doubts.

The rape scene is horrific
for everyone, including you.

Rumi leaves in tears.

Reality breaks, Mima dissociates.

Her trauma response kicks in
as she finally comes home.

She hallucinates at our fish are
dead and her idol, self and ethereal

glowing version of her perpetually
dressed in CUTI idle costume comes

alive and harasses HERPA before
skipping away on street lights.

Then the screenwriter is murdered
brutally by a boombox in a parking garage.

As far as we know,

Ben: man, did I relate to
the writer getting murdered?

Probably shouldn't like
too deep into that.

Emily: Well, I mean, I would hope not
for the same reasons, but , I don't

think you write that kind of stuff.

No, I don't.

Yes.

After the murder Toyota co literally
tells Mima to smile more, and then

she sees her idol self in a nearby
car, shaming, her, she leaves the

car and causes a traffic incident.

But so far physically unscathed her
career is taking off now though.

And she agrees to several interviews,
which she says in her interviews,

conflicts with her blog, however,
and her blog is established to

be suspiciously connected to Mr.

Me-Mania Mima then agrees to photo to a
photo shoot with a notorious photographer

known for exploiting his models.

She too is exploited it.

Also horrifying.

Her nude photos are published.

Me-Mania tries to buy them all
and steal them, just basically

taking them out of circulation.

And we get that bathtub scene that
was referred to in requi for dream.

Reality unravels for Mima as
does the film's linear narrative.

At this point, we go
full meta as double bind.

Now has its own movie where in
Mima is a killer with dissociative

identity disorder and is treated.

Or we are treated to a montage of
repeating events where she is filming

certain scenes complete with characters
of double bind describing what Mima very

well could be experiencing in real life.

In the midst of this, the photographer
is murdered by Mima question mark.

We'll talk about that later who is full
method and, or experiencing multiple

psychotic breaks, confusing her identity
with that of the character that she's

playing and the ghostly idolema from her.

The final scene of double bind
raps and the real actual movie

that we were watching for this
podcast that is Perfect Blue sorta

kind of resumes as somewhat linear
structure, as Mima is attacked by Mr.

Me-Mania.

Who's personally contacted by the
the website Mima, who we don't

know who that is maybe, and who
is asking him to kill actual MEA.

That website MEA says is an imposter.

Are you confused?

That means it's working after
being assaulted and battered by Mr.

Me-Mania at the actual TV studio and,
and meaningless clothing is ripped and

it's also very upsetting Mima offends off
Me-Mania by killing him with a hammer.

She is then rescued by Rumi
and me's body just disappears.

Like it does Mima wakes up in her
room, but realizes it's not actually

her room, but a different apartment.

That is an exact copy of her room.

Perfectly normal Mimi's idol self appears
in a new outfit and it is actually

Rumi who exposes herself as the killer
turns out, Rumi killed everybody,

including TA Coto and probably the
photographer, but maybe not me, man.

We're not sure me, man and Tato
Tito's bodies are stashed together.

It's unclear.

Rooftop chasing and Sue's Rumi who
appears as Mima in her idol, self

form, pursues Mima, the real Mima with
intent to stab her to death Rumi is

then defeated when Mima steals her wig.

That is to say the Mima
wig on Rumi's head.

And Rumi accidentally guts herself
on some broken glass bleeding, Ruby

wanders into the street and is almost
run over by a truck whose lights,

she mistakes for stage lights.

As she embraces the hallucinatory,
cheers, Mima knocks her out

of the way, saving her life.

And in our Dan mall, Rumi
is institutionalized.

Still convinced that she is Mima, the
pop idol, however, arm MEA is fine

and she knows who she is for sure.

This isn't sarcastic
or is it any questions?

Jeremy: All of them.

Okay.

Yeah.

I, I feel like I was watching this and
I feel like there's a section at the

beginning where, you know, what's going
on and a section at the end where you're

like, okay, I think I know what happened.

And then there's a good chunk
in the middle of it where you're

like, I think people are dying.

My

Ben: notes entirely short are just
constantly being like, oh, okay.

So the theme is this.

Oh, wait.

No, it's this other thing.

So I guess it's this wait note
and it's not that thing at all.

Wait, hold on.

Is it the thing I
originally thought it was?

Nope.

It's none of the things,

Emily: I'm curious as to what
any of those things were.

Ben: Well, just being like
the sense of like, oh, okay.

It's like, it's the stalk
it's what's his face?

Edit, edit out the dead air.

Me-Mania me Me-Mania is killing people.

Okay.

So I get this theme, but is
that conflicting with what's?

It's weird that like, I guess him
and Mima might agree with like the

exploitation that she's going through.

Oh, wait.

No, she's killing them.

So really it's like a righteous
retribution of, oh wait.

No, she's not killing them.

It's wait.

Oh, it's Rumi.

I.

Don't know what this means anymore.

Jeremy: yeah, I think it's, it was
interesting to me that I feel like for so

much of it, I was like, oh my God, this
is a pretty by the book stalker thing.

Where, you know, he's, he just
keeps showing up places and he

keeps the there's the letter bomb
and this and that and the other.

And you're like, oh well, you know, he,
he thinks she's talking to him through the

computer to the point that like, where he
actually dies and, you know, fighting her.

And he is telling her that,
Mima, the real Mima is telling

him these things over email.

You're like, oh, it's a, it's a delusion.

This man is insane.

And thinks this, this person who
he has a, a, an obsession with is

actually contacting him, like, and then
it's like, no, actually he was being

manipulated by somebody into thinking
that he was doing, that he was saving

this other Mima from this, imposter.

Ben: I mean, it's like any.

There's an, I guess there's an element
of like the, who done it when you go back

and you realize like, oh, that throwaway
scene of like Rumi teaching Mima, how

to like how to set up the computer.

That's the movie, like, that's the plot?

Like, that's the twist right there.

Like that's the foreshadowing
is like, look, it's Rumi.

Who knows how computers work.

Yeah.

She's the one who knows
what email is like.

And I know this is just because it's
1997, but it always makes me laugh.

It laughs.

When I watch like Seinfeld episodes
and they talk about the internet,

it makes me laugh here when Mima's
reaction to the internet is oh yeah.

That thing that's popular these days.

I've heard

Jeremy: of that.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I, I appreciate also that, like
I love it when things in shows are

named things that mean something that
like, when you think about it, you're

like, oh, that's a, that makes sense.

Cuz that like double bind.

Is an expression that means, you
know, and a person is confronted by

two irreconcilable demands or has
like two, two choices that they, they

don't want to choose either of them.

Ben: So with double bind, I do wanna
just briefly, because there's not

much talk about, and it's weird that
the movie brings up at first how does

this movie deal with trans issues?

There is a throwaway line and
double bind where they're just like

probably a murderous trans person.

That's what I think.

And I don't know if this is supposed to
be like a Japanese adaptation of Silence

of the Lambs or what, but it's kind
of unnecessary to just be like, yep.

Murderous, trans people stereotypes.

Okay.

Just background.

Emily: Well, I think that's a very
valid criticism because of the

influence of Silence of the Lambs
and how, you know, and also like the

story of GUI and stuff like that.

Where you have these sensationalized
stories about killers who

remove the skin in order to
create to become something else.

And in this case these stories that
we hear are all these guys took off

women's skin and became women with them.

And it's not about that at all.

It's not about gender at all or identity
. And Silence of the Lambs is like, this

is what this guy's doing, but it's not
that, but we're still gonna talk about it.

Like he's, we're still gonna show
him sexualizing himself as a woman,

even though Hannibal electors, like
he's not transsexual by the way, TM,

Ben: copyright, I constantly waiver
back and forth on how much credit

I give Silence of the Lambs for
its ass covering asterisk on that.

Emily: Yeah.

I mean, I've read the book and
it's it's similarly like too

subtle, but you know, I think that.

If you're gonna choose a situation,
maybe they were going for it.

And of course, in 1997, we don't have
the same amount of respect in media

that we see in media of trans issues.

That's

Ben: not an excuse.

Yeah.

Cuz Silence of the Lambs would've
come out within like five years

of this movie's production.

Yeah.

And like it was definitely in the air.

Jeremy: Yeah.

We're gonna talk about like, I mean,
stuff that was somewhat contemporary,

a Ventura came out in 1994 and that has
possibly the worst handling of a, of trans

Ben: characters.

It does.

I just, I love the idea that
Satoshi Kon was specifically

influenced by Ace Ventura pet

Emily: detective

I mean, I don't love that idea, but
Satoshi Kon is interesting too because

Satoshi Kon does tackle trans issues a lot
with Tokyo God FA godfathers in a big way.

And not in terribly a delicate or
super well thought out way, but you

know, for the time, not absolutely.

It's not Ventura

Ben: look, this isn't like heart of
the plot, which almost makes it weird.

It just I'm like it just like a
little casual drive by transphobia.

Emily: Yeah.

Definitely more drive by than
the fat phobia that we get.

And the, the sort of weird
representation like this movie critiques

expectation, like image expectation
for women in media, but then also

uses it to dehumanize characters.

Ben: So this movie could
not lean harder into ugly.

People are evil.

Emily: Yeah.

And that's the thing too, that I, I
wrote some notes down about that because

when you have a film that is animated,
there is a conscious decision to design

these characters and make them uncanny.

And the depiction of Rumi and
Me-Mania is pretty problematic.

When you think about that Jeremy,
you were gonna say something about,

Jeremy: Well, I mean, I was gonna
say, I think with Rumi, I feel like

the depiction is generally fine until
it gets to the part where she is,

dressing as this other character.

But yes, I would say like fat phobia
and Satoshi Kon are no strangers.

I mean, I I've seen Paka and like, they
make a point of, again, coming back

around in that movie and saying, No, this
fat guy, he's a person with feelings,

but they spend most of the movie going.

Logan is fat pig.

Just eaten all the time.

He's so eaten.

Look at him, eating in
this scene in this scene.

Emily: Yeah.

It's definitely not sensitive, but there's
not a lot of consideration when trying to

make these characters seem, monstrous.

Jeremy: It has

a real, like eighties, these
disgusting people are people too.

I mean, they're disgusting, but
they are people you should realize

Ben: that.

Yeah.

Like there's, I mean, in paprika.

Yeah.

There's this, every look, the contrast
between, Rumi as Mima being this like

very ethereal, bouncy gravity list
being, and then you see real Rumi being

like this panting, sweating, gasping.

Like figure that like, like it's
very effective from a cinematography

standpoint, but you know, it's also
uh, like we said uh, not, not going,

very effective cinematography wise,
not very effective if we are trying

to not demonize overweight people.

Emily: I think that the most
offensive part of that is when

Rumi reveals herself in the outfit.

Because there is this, they make a point
of making a huge contrast between how

she looks in real life and the ideal
that she is supposed to be representing.

Yeah.

Which anima sees.

Ben: That is full on.

Our reaction is supposed to be,
oh my God, look at this giant

person wearing this outfit.

She has no business wearing that is
like big person in skimpy outfit.

This is shocking and horrifying
on an inherent level.

And it's like movie.

Yeah.

Also because Rumi's kind of
rocking it and like it's like buff

girl, like going on, like, yeah.

I mean, it's not, I mean, aside from
the murdery insane part, but yeah, no.

Yeah.

When have you ever, you know, we've all
had to brush that to the side, some point

in order to feel good about ourselves.

our,

Emily: our insane murder
aspect of ourselves.

Mm-hmm

Ben: man.

Look, we are, we are recording
this episode after a week.

Emily: Yeah.

That's Ugh.

Yeah, let's talk about women's issues.

Oh my

Jeremy: God.

Which could be any week
at this point, honestly.

Yeah.

Emily: It's bad.

It's bad out there folks.

Which is why, you know, with a
movie like this it's a little bit

difficult to not come in real hard
on it, especially it being, it

involves like explicit rape scenes.

But I will say that the, once you get
past some of these initial presentation,

like you said, cinematography
in this movie is really good.

And also everything that is supposed
to be horrifying is horrifying.

The problem is, I think with depiction
is when you have someone drawing

it and you have something that is
representative and of an ideal.

Like Mima who is very idealized
in the way she looks especially

compared to all the other characters,
because Rumi still has, even though,

like she's normally pretty cool.

She does have a little bit of
uncanny ballet going on in her face.

Ben: The movie really likes to like,
use a, like fish lens angles on

Rumi and like really try to like,
emphasize, like, to me, I thought

they really tried to overemphasize
like how far apart her eyes were.

Yeah.

Like, and stuff like that.

Like they, they definitely
choose unflattering angles.

Emily: Well, and they do that with
a lot of other characters too,

but Eddie is the um, actress that
Mima is uh, working with who plays

the lead detective in double bind.

And of course Mima's partners in sham.

All of them have this sort of same.

Anime girl, anime woman kind
of, physicality, physicality.

Yeah, physicality.

I've just completely
lost the word right now.

Proportion.

That was the word I was looking
for, although it's interesting

because there was a scene where
they have these characters next

to an actual anime drawing.

When we have some characters at a
comic book shop to really enforce

the disparity between draw an ideal
and like the real life of this

Ben: film I did enjoy that.

They had to stop and think like,
how do we show that something is

an anime in a world that is anime.

Yeah.

I mean, and not just like live
action anime, but like anime,

anime, anime squared multiple
fictional levels of anime.

Emily: Yeah.

And and watching that in 1998, Was
eyeopening for me, cuz I was like,

okay, so this is something like
someone gets this at least because

of a lot of things that have to do
with depiction of characters in, in

uh, comics and anime, but that's this

Ben: movie delivered some of the biggest
anime mind fucks since I was like 10 years

old and like two thirds of the way through
the series, they're like, oh yeah, the

kids from Digi mind all live in Japan.

And my American, I was
like, I'm sorry, what?

, we're 30 episodes into this show.

You never thought to mention
that everybody's Japanese.

I didn't know that I'm 10 dragon
balls still a year and a half away.

Emily: They're all eating these
really weird donuts, but they look

like they're they're kick ass.

Like look at those they're jelly donuts.

I don't know.

It's mochi Or pork bao.

The depiction of these characters also
can in certain cases seem to represent

characters of, color because you have
different like shades of skin tone.

And this is a lot more effort than
some movies do to make characters

very, especially in Japan, where
you have a lot of characters where

it's just hair colored and you have,
everybody's wearing a, a uniform.

Jeremy: I feel like this rape scene,
the rape scene that is in the movie that

they're making in the movie has so many
levels of like shade towards shows like

this, because like, that's where they
bring in all of the, you know, darker

male actors are in this scene where
they're in a strip club and she's, this

character's attacked and being raped.

And it's also

Ben: like, I really like the moment
where the actor apologizes to her.

Yeah.

But like, and I don't know, to me,
this movie also felt very damning

of the entertainment industry.

Yeah.

Like this isn't like this isn't
supposed to be entirely metaphorical.

This is supposed to be,
this is a real thing.

The entertainment industry does
the people, this is fucked up.

Yes.

As crazy a mind fuck as this
movie is, there's also elements

of subtext is for cowards.

Jeremy: Yeah.

As difficult as the rape scene is to
watch it is really artfully done in

that, like they have this moment of like,
yes, this is a scene where the character

that she is playing is being raped.

She is not being raped is the thing
she's agreed to do for this movie.

But she has agreed to do it
under pressure and it has.

It is so traumatizing in the way that
not only like, that it's it's filmed,

but in the way that like she is forced
to go through this same experience over

and over and over that, there's this
moment where the two, characters sort of

blur and swap to some extent, which is,
I feel like the movie kind of goes very

off the rails in a very intentional way.

Ben: I feel like

this is a cinematic experience that
will be replicated if they ever one

day make a Sophie Turner biopic.

And they're just covering
the game of Thrones filming.

Emily: Oh God.

Yeah.

Ben: Cause again, like the way this
movie is so all about blending, like

the fictional, the real like doesn't
matter, which is which like, it's just

so again, not subtle, like just hammering
home, like even having to act out a

fictional rape scene can be degrading,
dramatic, exploitative, abusive.

Like even if everyone's saying it's okay,
it is still some real fucked up shit.

You are making people act out.

Emily: Yeah.

And she is assaulted.

She is battered in that scene.

You know, We see her clothes
being torn and things like that,

which actually, you know, happens.

And, you know, you think about scenes
like that in these films and in real

films where you have a very upsetting
sequence of events, how does an

actor separate themselves from that?

In the case of this particular
movie, I thought it was effectively

surreal because you had.

The shot, like what was happening
during the actual scene, and then you

had them in between takes, so it was
this really like, this whiplash of

here's a traumatic thing happening.

Oh, we have to cut right now because the
guy can't get his fly open, or whatever.

Ben: Yeah.

Like, and this is maybe why, like,
I need to see the movie at least two

more times in order to fully parse it.

But like, I felt like who, how I'm
supposed to be feeling or agreeing with

I felt like there was some conflict, or
I don't know, or maybe even that's the

point, but like from Rumi from Me-Mania,
there's all these elements and themes

of fan ownership, the Madonna/whore
um, complex, this very Purin culture

and that it's just a very inherently
like kind of sex, negative denying Mima

ownership over her body and her lifestyle.

But then at the same time, she is
legitimately being sexually exploited

by so many people in her life.

Like, what the fuck?

How am I supposed to feel about
like what they're arguing versus

what Mima's putting herself through.

Jeremy: There's some minds delivered in
these scenes where one of the characters

say something and just me watching it
at home will go, fuck, that's grim.

Like there's the scene where
they're filming the rape scene and

the director's like, yeah, I know it
wasn't really what we wanted to do.

Like, we would've liked to film this in a
real club, but you know, it's so hard to

like get the permits and stuff to do that.

And it's like what?

Ben: okay.

That's hoing because I can see
a thousand television directors

having that thought process.

Emily: The meta of this movie is
so good because it does have that

razor edge critique of the industry.

This also addresses the pressure of
Mima to, because she wants to become

an actress, but, you know, it's just
like, These breakout roles where

there's this whole idea and this
culture of young women having to agree

to being exploited, if they wanna
make it in this, in the industry.

Ben: I will say that's one
hell of a behind the scenes

though, like promotion role.

It's like, Hey, we cast you for
one line and we decided to make

you the main villain of the show.

That's like, damn you
like, you fucking go.

I mean, again, all the scenes bad, but
it reminds me of like GU freeing how

it's like, oh, we came and you came on
to be an actual chicken restaurant guy.

And then we made you the main villain.

Emily: Well, there's a lot of it's not
nepotism, but there's like a lot of like

work politics going on because Mima's
manager is, is continuing to like stress

and essentially harass the writer.

And the producer of the show in
order to get Mima a bigger role.

And so, and she goes through this
moment of like, everyone is pissed off

because she doesn't have a big enough
role, but then everybody's also pissed

off that she's no longer in Cham.

And then Cham is now hitting the
charts and she's not in Cham anymore.

And that moment of uncertainty is what
contributes to her, agreeing to something

that she's not really prepared for.

Ben: What this movie does.

So, so well is capturing Mima's
intense sense of being so overwhelmed

of her breakdown of her lose of
her losing her stability and of her

just feeling like no matter what she
does, she's doing it something wrong.

yeah.

Emily: And that delayed
reaction to trauma.

That was something that I felt incredibly
relatable because when you go through

something and you're kind of keeping
up your Vista, and then she goes home

and she starts to kind of lose her

Jeremy: that scene where she goes home
and the fish are all dead and she just

loses her shit and starts screaming

Ben: into bed.

Now, how did the fish die?

Was that so real Ruy?

did Ruy kill the fish as

Emily: well?

The fish did not die.

The fish were not dead.

Jeremy: Yeah.

After she stops screaming and she looks
up and they're alive after all and.

Ben: The fuck is up with those fish?

Fish.

Get your shit together.

I'm just saying if my cat was like, eh, I
did, and then he turned out not be dead.

I'd be like, I, you
gave me a heart attack.

Kad.

What?

The, all the, what?

The fucks.

Emily: It was a hallucination.

She's hallucinating.

Cuz she also then started talking
to herself and then herself came

out of the computer and was like-.

Ben: Are you telling me
that's more likely than that?

This is an elaborate fish prank?

Emily: Yes.

Okay.

Jeremy: Speaking of Darren Aronofsky
there's a couple of shots from this that

are definitely lifted into uh, black

Ben: Swan.

I'm sorry.

It could not be more clear
that that man owes his entire

fucking career to this film.

I always knew he took influence from it.

I did not realize watching, just
be like, oh, here's just all

of Darren Aronofsky's career.

Here's everything he has ever done in
this one movie that he did not make

.
Jeremy: Yeah.

Like the scene where she is writing on the
train and her own reflection turns, and

she doesn't is like, it's in Black Swan.

Yeah.

And the scene where all of
the posters start of her start

talking like that's in Black Swan.

Ben: I mean, there's
so many iconic moments.

Like the bathtub Rumi Mima, like
with the blood downer face in the

beginning with Me-Mania, like holding
like his hand and like holding her,

like she's like a ballet figurine.

Yeah.

This is a supremely directed
and cinematographied movie, a

word that is definitely real.

Emily: I believe you.

Also the parallel between.

The mother and daughter in Black
Swan and Rumi and Mima in this

movie where the mother in Black
Swan was a former ballerina.

And she's trying to live vicariously
this life again through her daughter.

And, and Rumi is also
doing that through Mima.

Ben: Aronofsky, you fuck.

Jeremy: Yeah.

And Rumi is clearly the closest
thing that Mima has to a, a mother.

I guess we don't know
anything about her family.

She's just lived in an
apartment by herself.

Emily: She talks to her mother
at the beginning of the film, but

Ben, you wanted to say something?

Ben: Well, I really wanna talk about
what to me was the biggest, I'm

sorry, what the fuck of the whole
film which was Me-Mania's voice.

Was anyone else extremely not expecting
that voice from that character?

Emily: Did you wa did
she watch it in Japanese?

Yes.

Okay.

His voice in English is way crazier.

He's like Mima.

When I first watched it, I
watched the shit out of this

movie when it first came out.

However, it was a, an edited blockbuster
version, so, oh well, oh boy.

Yeah.

So it did not have as
much of the rape scene.

Ben: It did not have.

So were you just like, why
did that perfectly nice

photographer man get murdered?

They didn't show that didn't
do anything exploitative.

Emily: They had very meaningful
cuts and they also didn't show her

like stabbing the shit out of him.

So how much

Ben: of this movie can you cut is like 75

Emily: minutes long.

Yeah, it was a short version,
but I was still super into it.

So I saw it a lot, so I could kind
of get the, plot is now I've had

time to sort of figure out the plot.

Ben: I definitely had like a voice in
my head that I was imagining and it

was not Mickey mouse level squeaky.

Emily: yeah.

He had a very, very mundane voice, which
I think is the best thing they could have

done because he looks very not normal.

And, yeah.

And there's a lot, like when we talk
about progressive politics in terms of

like disability and things like that, I,
I don't know if that what specifically.

His features cross over into, but he's
definitely supposed to be monstrous

looking and dehumanized in this movie.

And yeah, he is a monster.

Ben: But yeah, there is a
straight up obsessive nerd

equals hideous gargoyle monster.

Jeremy: He has some features that would
be consistent with having downs, but

like not enough that you're like, oh,
this character has downs syndrome.

Like, yeah, it's enough.

You're

Ben: like, I'm also glad that this
movie isn't trying to connect that

character does something specific
like that, because if so, if it had

been, it would've been a real yikes.

Yeah.

It really heavy.

Yikes.

What was that techno music during the
fight between me Me-Mania and Mima.

It was who was like, yep.

Hit that tech.

No, we've had no other techno
in the movie, but we're playing

it real hard in the climax.

Emily: It's, you

Jeremy: know, I don't know if they use
it before, but I would assume it has

something to do with the fact that fight
takes place on the strip club stage.

He is trying to take advantage of her and,
and kill her on the same, like place on

the stage where her character is raped and

Ben: no that rape scene, the second rape
scene, or the almost rape scene that

kind of bothered me on a thematic level,
because the first one you have both

really harsh critique of the entertainment
industry, as well as a big advancement of.

Like this trauma and fiction reality
blurring the lines between what's real.

What's not real.

And if any of it matters.

This second rape just feels like sh
like trying to do a shocking brutality.

And also from a character standpoint of
Me-Mania, I don't understand how this fits

his characterization of trying to preserve
Mima or trying to like, bring her back

to like pure like innocence or purity,
or even just get rid of this imposter.

Emily: It's not elegant, but I do
think it does say something, about the

hypocrisy of these kinds of like crazy
stalker fans when they're trying to

preserve an ideal, but also, you know, is
trying to have the cake and eat it too.

You know what I mean, where they're like,
I wanna preserve this ideal and this

purity, but I also, cause I want her

Jeremy: to be mine.

Ben: Maybe this is just because I've
watched too many fucking cop shows and

I'm looking at that being like this
doesn't fit the serial killers profile.

Well, and also you have, he's changed.

He's changed the ceremony,

Emily: The Madonna/Whore thing where he
doesn't, he believes this is not Mima.

This is an imposter Mima that is trying to

Jeremy: ruin Mima's reputation.

Emily: Yeah.

And, like sully her.

So, he's sullying her back, I guess.

Ben: This is one where like, again,
with the first rape scene - ugh!

First rape scene, not terrible phrase,
terrible phrase to come outta my mouth.

But again, like it advanced the
theme and characters and plot.

This one, like what does him
trying to rape her there, add to

the plot or intensity or emotion
that isn't already achieved by

him trying to brutally murder her.

Like it's enough that he's just
trying to stab her a bunch of times.

I, I don't think it needs this
extra level of just sexual violence.

Like that felt unnecessary to me.

Emily: I agree.

I agree that it was not necessary.

I mean, the, Fandom hypocrisy
thing is like the only reason that

I can see that it would fit, but
it's still, you don't need it.

I

Jeremy: think.

And I mean, this is not unlike
stuff we discussed with Dr.

Strange, although thankfully not
a bunch of rape scenes in Dr.

Strange.

It feels like a case where the creator
wanted something to happen that reinforced

a theme and an idea in the movie, which
is like it's not a coincidence that

they're in this same space but she
is in this case, reclaiming her agency

by, you know, fighting off this fan
by killing this fan when previously

she has been you know, even from the
first scene, people are throwing things

at her and she's like, come on guys.

Let's all just be nice
and have a good time.

Ben: Okay.

I get what you're saying there,
like it brings full circle.

It's an imagery of it's a full circle.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

I

Jeremy: also think it's interesting
cause they, they do a, thing that I

think goes along with that with her
and Rumi where when Mima looks into

a mirror, she sees the fake her, she
sees the idol, her, and when Rumi looks

into a mirror, she sees the real Rumi.

And whereas, you know, she's imagining
this, Mima version of her that she is,

cosplaying as basically and that ends up
being part of what throws her off as she's

chasing her, as she sees the reflection
and sees the real hair in the mirror.

And it, it has this, it has a, a real
interesting something to say about where

both of those characters are mentally.

Emily: Well, there's a bit right at
the end of that battle between Rumi

and Mima, where Mima is looking in the
mirror and she sees herself as she is.

And then she also sees Rumi as
she is and that sort of helps her.

Remove the illusion.

And then that's when she removes the
wig from Rumi's head and then Rumi's

sort of lost her illusion now for
herself and scrambles to regain it.

Ben: But was anyone else surprised
that Rumi lived me lived?

Emily: A little bit when I first saw it.

Yeah.

I was not expecting Rumi to live.

I did like that

Ben: Rumi lived.

Yes.

Again, like that's a bit of compassion
towards her and showing like humanity

that I wasn't expecting like that
they actually, that the movie kind

of ends with, like, this is a victim
of mental illness that you should

sympathize with, which I will commend
the movie instead of being like,

look at this fat, crazy monster.

Like aren't we glad that
she's like dead forever.

Yeah.

I definitely.

Appreciate that the movie found that
humanity and compassion for Rumi.

Well, I think it

Jeremy: says a lot about sort of our,
our main character as a person that

Mima goes and puts herself at risk to
save Rumi at the end, because there'

definitely like, as I was watching it,
I was like, you don't know her shit.

She to jump into a truck for her.

Ben: Like, there was definitely
a moment where I was like, oh

fuck, is this movie so dark?

It's gonna end with like, Mima, just
getting wrecked by this like truck.

And now like delusional,
Rumi is the only Mima left.

And that's how the movie ends.

I'm like that's too dark.

No, it wouldn't do that.

Would it?

Emily: Yeah.

So, Another thing I wanted to talk about
with the film in terms of identity is

I thought that it was a very, almost
frighteningly accurate prediction

of the identity crisis of having an
online persona or a media persona.

Ben: And this movie feels
way ahead of its time.

Yeah.

Incredibly precient like online personas
online harassment, toxic fandoms fandom

ownership, like online abuse, like, wow.

Is this movie crazy ahead of its time?

Like for a movie that like where the
MaineCare supposedly doesn't know anything

about the internet, this movie more than
almost any other nineties movie correctly

predicted where the internet would go.

Yeah.

And horrific, unfortunately
she doesn't get

Jeremy: in any hacker typing
battles with, this other.

Me Mima on the internet.

Ben: Oh no.

Like to me, one of the most haunting
images and just like what I thought was

like, wow, like such a great, like rock
bottom of just how absolutely Mimas like

has no grasp on reality that she can rely
on is like, when she's reading the blog of

her stalker to know what she did that day.

Jeremy: Yeah.

That, That whole segment where like
something horrible happens and then

she's filming and then like the director
yells cut and she is suddenly in her

bed waking up on like another take.

And it's like, wait, where, what happened?

Where is she?

Like, what did we miss?

Ben: This movie is such
an effective mind fuck.

Emily: Yes.

And also really.

Accurate at portraying, not just like
I was talking about the trauma delay,

but also like when you're in the
midst of working on something really,

really intense, or you're in the midst
of like, you haven't slept a lot.

And you've been running around all
day, you know, I can imagine that

it feels like this sometimes where
you're like, what day is it today?

Yeah.

The only thing that I can use to tell
how much time has passed is Twitter.

Sound design in this movie is rad.

That weird tech, no of the Mr.

Me-Mania chase is a little bit odd,
but we're in this age between 1989 and

1999, where we have Japanese feature
films that have these very cacophonous

soundtracks that add to a surreality
or like ethereal atmospheric quality.

Like the Akira soundtrack
was weird and cool.

And these ghosts in the shell
soundtrack was weird and cool.

And there were a lot of people
screaming and then this one, there's

some weird screaming and moaning.

but it starts out with this like
cutey little pop song playing as

sort of a theme through the movie.

At one point it heralds the
death of the screenwriter as

he opens the elevator door.

And it's just this boombox very
beautifully shot sequence too.

Ben: I appreciated how bad the
sound quality from that boombox was.

And I'm like, ah, yeah.

That's why we don't do CDs no more.

Emily: In the, the very beginning,
this movie starts out with like a

Sunday afternoon sent show with Cham,
like playing after that, and there

was this like really weird sound
that was going on in the back of it.

And it was like this kind of constant
like a moaning sound and Brett was

watching the movie with me and he's
like, wow, this is really interesting.

Like, this is, you have this
cute, like daytime pop show with

these characters and cute outfits,
but it still feels very strange.

And like unsettling.

Turns out our dishwasher was
running um, but the rest of the

movie, there are points where it does
sound like your dishwashers running.

So it was a bit of a
serendipitous situation.

Jeremy: There is it that scene at the
beginning, there's some weird like pans

across the audience that would like
make sense if it was live action, but

in animation just seems so weird that
like, it's just like, it's like somebody

put a camera in the middle of the park
and just slowly split across the crowd.

But they animated those people.

They weren't just there, like they,
they had to choose these like shots

and these, these people walking through
is, and I was just like, this is such

a weird sequence, whether just like
we're overhearing bits of conversation

about Cham and about the girls.

And it's like, what is he doing?

It's so strange.

Emily: It's an interesting
thing with Satoshi Kon.

And it's, to also name drop Evangelian
again, like KKI does this too.

And Evangelian where you have an
animated movie or show that is

directed like a live action show.

And in this case, you know, it's to
the creator's credit because especially

with TV shows, you have this kind of
rule of thirds or like very deliberate

placement of characters where you
don't have a lot of animation, but it

still really gets the point across.

Ben: Um, I Think in this case, the rule
of thirds is that I only understand

what's happening at third of the time.

I

Emily: mean, that is also BA

Ben: BA BA.

Emily: But yeah, so, This movie
does a really good job of developing

a, just a scary ass atmosphere and
disorienting to the movie's credit.

Like this isn't one of those films
where you're like, okay, whatever David

Lynch, although I love, David Lynch,
but in this case there was really solid

decision making in making the narrative
start to break down as the reality.

So we and Mima together are struggling.

Jeremy: Yeah.

we're really in this with her.

Ben: how about though?

When they are talk, when the other
members of Cham are talking about

how much better they are as a duo,
knowing full well that Mima is

fucking like six feet away and right.

Just in the other room.

Oh yeah.

Jeremy: Well then I won't say it.

It's their, Agent that says it and They
seem very unbothered by all of this.

In fact, they seem excited to see
Mima when she comes to visit them at

the radio station, despite the fact
that she runs away screaming because

she she sees herself already there.

Hey Mima.

She's like, oh my God.

Runs away.

Ben: They have no reaction.

They're just like, Okay.

That was always an option bye!

Emily: Well, they also, there's
a point where they slut shame her

for accepting the photography deal

Ben: that she is precious.

Oh yeah, that's right.

Yeah.

That was that's like they, again,
like between celebrating, being

the duo and God that and okay.

That's real.

Just the sense of like, oh, she's
going to this photographer that

exploits people, therefore it's
her fault if she gets exploited.

Yeah.

Fuck.

Ugh.

This movie.

Yeah.

Again like it's.

It's take down of the entertainment
industry and the way it treats

people is just so fucking on point.

Jeremy: Yeah.

It, feels like the things that we
watched in Scream 3, that we were like,

did they know they were doing this
everything in this movie is like, oh

shit they knew they were doing this.

Ben: Like, this movie is Scream 3, but it
remembered to actually be a horror film.

Jeremy: Scream 3 wishes it was this movie.

Yeah.

Ben: This would be Scream 3 if
Mima spent like three quarters of

the movie not being in the movie.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Speaking of things that aren't in
the movie anything else to say about

queer representation in this movie?

Emily: No.

I

Ben: made enough.

No, we don't even get yeah.

Emily: About Rumi being like
obsessed with Mima, but it's not

really that either, like the it's

Jeremy: the one thing has on this

Ben: movie is like, I wish I could spring
like a two girl friendship into between

like a Mima and E, but there is not
enough screen and time between them, for

me to even like, grasp for that straw.

Yeah.

And I, I wish there was, I wish it was
a straw I could grasp, but I can't.

Yeah.

Disappointed

Emily: as you are, if we're
gonna grasp straws, we might

as well just be like, yeah.

The last, the other two members of jam
are, are deeply in love and together.

That's why they're so
happy about being a duo.

Ben: Yeah.

Okay.

That's

Jeremy: can, yeah.

Mima was the only thing, keeping
them from making out all the time.

So as far as class, it's interesting
because I don't feel they go outta

their way to say a lot about it.

But I do think Emily noted here
the apartment that Mima lives in is

like very small, very uh, run down.

It's like, she's really, this is clearly
like 20 something's first apartment.

Yeah.

There

Ben: is, there's really some contrast
to be said by just like shoebox,

like a tiny, like a, a super,
super narrow studio apartment.

And it's such a effective contrast
between this work she does, which

puts her so in the spotlight and
requires her to project this.

Image of like glamor and utter
and totally keeping it together.

Mm-hmm And, you know, prosperity.

And then really what she's actually paid
to project that image is barely enough for

like a crowded mess of a barely a closet.

Jeremy: I think it's so interesting
the way they project Cham as a musical

entity that like, usually in these
things, bands are either failing or

they're wildly successful and Cham
is like, they're doing okay, they're

paying the bill was like, they've
never charted, but you know, they have

consistent, opportunities to do concerts.

They have enough fans to
fill up those opportunities.

Uh, And that seems to be about it.

Cuz like in those, first couple scenes,
you don't really have the indication that

they're like, not all that successful,
but then as it goes on, you're like, oh.

I guess they're just doing fine.

Like, this is

Ben: one area where, you know, I
really don't know what the idol scene

in Japan is like or the economics
of it, especially what it was

like in the early, late nineties.

So like, they struck me as someone
who's like, oh, you're on tour.

But like at just a lot of
like clubs, nowhere big.

But really like, I don't know,
like it, it's just a musical

culture that I just so ignorant of.

I almost don't even wanna conjecture.

Emily: From what I do know, which is
limited the presence of that super

sentai show is indicative of the
kind of shows that Cham is playing.

Ben: Like they're playing like mall shows.

Emily: Yeah, they

Ben: were doing mall shows like
mall, like shopping mall concerts.

Yeah.

Um, Like it seems like
they were at that level.

Jeremy: Yeah.

The other thing that I didn't feel like,
I don't feel like there's a lot to say

about is the racial and social justice
in this movie, Emily, you pointed out

that some of the characters are drawn
a little darker, and then there's some

stuff going on with facial features,
which like, it feels like reading an

HP Lovecraft novel where he's like, and
their eyes were further apart and a little

sunken and slanted, and you're like, this
is code for some kind of racism and I'm

not sure what it is like reading this.

I'm very clear that this is racism, but
like, I'm not sure what kind of racism

Emily: is.

In the case of this movie, you know, I
think a lot of it is, has to do with less

to do with race and more to do with like,
just what, who characters are and how

much we're supposed to identify with them.

Ben: Yeah, I think it's also supposed
to like feed into the mindset of like

people's outsides match their insides.

Emily: Yeah.

It's and it's also, I think it is a
reaction to the like super idealized

anime culture where everybody's like big
eye or either like we talk, go ahead,

Ben: Ben.

Again, just if for some reason you think
those movies, like, is that how it works?

It's not pretty people
can be very very mean.

And sometimes total egos are
wonderful, wonderful, gentle souls.

Emily: Yeah.

That's.

Unfortunate cartoony part of

Jeremy: this movie, it feels almost
like they're starting to play with that

with Me-Mania at the beginning, because
like he is, he does stand up for jam.

He, you know, stands up against the guys
who are throwing shit at them and being

obnoxious and gets his as kicked for it.

But also it does turn out that he is a
horrible crazed stalker person who is

also being manipulated by another person.

But yeah, it is.

I, I feel like strong indication
that something about the way he

looks is supposed to be indicative
of the sort of person he is.

Yeah.

He's, he's got real frog face.

Like, yeah,

Emily: He looks like.

Like a mythical creature he looks, he
does not, he has not a very human face.

And it, when I was first watching
this, when I was a teenager, I actually

thought it was a really cool style.

Like I was starting to, I was trying
to emulate it, but I wasn't quite

aware of what that can fall into in
terms of indicating the like his, his

bodily condition or race or whatever.

they make a point of making his
teeth like kind of jagged and making

that a part of his monstrousness,
which is not great at all.

when you're muted.

Ben: Something I wanna touch on just in
terms of mental illness is the one area.

I definitely feel like this movie
may be trying to have its cake and

eat it too, is how it deals with
dissociative identity disorder.

Yes.

In that it, you get like the meta in
universe being of like, look at this

ridiculous, like overuse story device of
like, she experienced sexual violence.

And now she has a secret
murder personality while at

the same time being like, okay.

But actually the real villain does
have a secret murder personality.

Emily: Yeah.

Ben: And it's like, that's one area
where it's like, that felt a little

bit like a cabin in the woods where
it's like, okay, you're calling it

out, but you're still just doing it.

Jeremy: Yeah.

The, and the understanding of, of D
I D dissociative dis center the 30th

dissociative identity disorder in this
is very much a like nineties, early two

thousands, John QSAC and identity like
real, I mean, John, QK an identity.

Let's not get it twisted is a
few years ahead of this and a

worse understanding of D I D.

But like, this is the same sort of
thing you would've seen in, our version

of double bind, which is fucking law
and order like on a weekly basis,

if you turn that on, like, yeah.

Like

Ben: this is disassociative identity
disorder used in the exact same

way it's used in Dexter season six.

Emily: Yeah.

And she literally the detective in
the, in double bind literally calls it.

She's like, it's basically
multiple personality disorder.

Ben: It's I will say the scene though,
where it gets super mind fucky and

there's the implication that Mima the
actress is herself like an alternate

personality of somebody else.

Like what a infe, what a super effectively
like disturbing and unmooring scene.

Like God, this movie excels so
hard at just being a dark mind.

Fuck.

Emily: I want your opinion for him.

Do we think that Mima
killed the photographer?

Jeremy: No, I think Mimi
killed the photographer.

Yes.

Emily: Yes.

To Mima or yes to Rumi.

I,

I

Ben: think it was Rumi.

Emily: Okay.

Do we think that Mima killed Mr.

Me-Mania?

Ben: Okay, well that I'm not sure
about because it seemed like Maman

had like his eye stabbed out.

Whereas we saw Mima, hit him in
the side of the head with a hammer.

So I wondered if he was just wounded
and then Rumi, like finished him off

once she didn't have use for him.

Emily: Yeah.

I don't remember seeing, like,

Jeremy: she gets him in
the head with the hammer.

He lies on the stage.

She goes to get Rumi.

And by the time she's brought
Rumi back, he's missing.

And like his body pops
up in the cab later.

I think that's a moment where like
the plotting doesn't super work.

The pacing, like there's, it's a real

Ben: cause then did who killed Tara Coro?

Was it MI Rumi.

It was Rumi.

Okay.

So that's the thing, like I, if Rumi
killed him, then I think, and again,

I'm just basing that either moved the
body or depending on if he had different

wounds than we saw Mima filled and
she might have like finished the job.

But again, I'm not sure, I'm not sure
how it works, where Rumi had time to move

the body before Miba went and got her.

Jeremy: Yeah.

I mean, I, I think from a, from what we
were talking about before, about the way

it deals with mental health, but also
sort of having it taken, eating it too,

I think it would work better for me if
Rumi was somebody that was like vengeful

in some way that was trying to like, you
know, you don't understand what you have.

I wish that I, had your, your looks,
your fame, your popularity or whatever,

I'm going to show you or I'm going.

Do this to correct you or
to mess you up or whatever.

And it wasn't just that well, she's the
one who was actually insane, whereas like,

cause I think it really does thoughtfully
deal with our main characters break or

Ben: tic break.

We don't need Rumi to also have.

D I D like the movie has already
set up her being tech savvy.

It's already set up her intense opposition
to people that sexually exploit Mima.

It's already established her
past as a formerly employed idol.

Like all of the foreshadowing
and character building has been

done for Rumi to be the villain
and have this be the work of her.

Again, probably still very mentally
unstable mind, but something based

into her personality that does not
require this D I D di diagnosis to

justify like the movie already justified
her character, taking these actions.

I, I

Jeremy: think it makes much more sense,
even either she is, is taking these these

actions that the main character is taking.

If she's seeing them as.

Undermining her, if she is saying
like, oh, I've spent all of this

time and effort, making this thing
for you and you're throwing it away.

Or if, she's saying I, I could have,
and should have had this at some point.

And like, I didn't have a
me there to do this for you.

So I'm gonna set you on the right path.

Ben: Yeah.

Yeah.

Like even just like, hell, you can still
do like body dysphoria and seeing and

Rumi, still seeing yourself as Mima
without again, the lines of the end being

like, oh, the Rumi personality is gone.

That was a separate personality.

And it's gone.

There was the person who cared about you
and the person who did all the killing.

And those are two totally
separate personalities.

I'm like I don't think that
was the best call again.

Like, again, this movie's fantastic.

This movie is.

An incredibly animated, psychologically
disturbing what the fuck?

Absolutely recommend people see it, if you
can deal with some very intense imagery.

But again, look, this movie gives you
a lot to chew on a lot to discuss.

And sometimes that means, you know,
you got quibbles with how they

execute it, especially when they're
trying to execute teams this complex.

Yeah, for sure.

This is my preamble of being
like, I like the movie.

I am not shitting on Perfect
Blue, just because I had issues

with specific storytelling

Jeremy: decisions.

Yeah.

I think the biggest problem
with the Perfect Blue is that

it was made in the nineties.

And if like it was made with a slightly
more 2010s understanding of psychology

and a little bit of storytelling
shift that's happened since then.

I, I think like I would have
very little to complain about.

But I think, looking at it, even
as a Relic of its time, it's

like, well, there's some stuff
that is uncomfortable about

Emily: this.

Yeah, for sure.

I agree.

I agree.

It does suffer from being
a product of its time.

And again, the whole trying to have
the cake eat too, especially with a

lot of conceptual stuff, when it gets
conceptual there the cake and eating

it question becomes a little too there

,
Jeremy: it's having its
cake and eating it too.

And also asking if cake even exists.

Yeah.

It's

Emily: like, what is cake?

Jeremy: I guess we're sort of
warming up to this question anyway,

but do you guys think this is worth
seeing, should people check it out

Emily: Minus content?

Yes.

Ben: I mean, look, absolutely.

If you are put off by the content,
like again, you know, the trigger

warnings, you know that there,
there are intense rape scenes, you

know, that there is fat phobia.

There is again, just very
intense mental disturb, you

know, psychologically disturbing.

But otherwise you're talking about one of
the absolute masters of 20 of animation

in the 20th of like anime in the 20th
century, you're seeing one of like,

most influential anime films ever made.

If that feels fair to say it is
incredible cinematography and.

It is very, very prescient about
where the internet and online

fandoms and abuse would go.

And this is a movie that look, I think,
is gonna stick with you for a real long

time and give you a lot to chew on.

So I definitely recommend it.

Jeremy: Yeah.

I mean, this is, this is something,
this is my first time watching it.

And it's honestly, before we started
doing this movie or before we started

doing this podcast movie, I didn't
really know anything about it's great.

It's definitely worth watching.

There is there is some
rough stuff to watch.

It is you will feel at some
point in the movie, like you

have no idea what's happening.

Yeah.

And that's fine.

It'll come back around.

Ben: Yeah, if you need to know what's
going on, don't watch this movie.

If you're okay.

Being, I have no control over
my life or what I watched then.

Yeah, fucking you'll you'll be okay.

Going along for the ride.

Emily: If you can watch Jojo's
bizarre adventure, you can watch this.

Jeremy: I mean, I it's.

It's funny, cuz I was going to
compare it to requi for a dream, which

borrows some stuff from it as well.

Requi for dream, it was
much harder to watch

Ben: oh yeah.

Look, if you had to choose between requi
for a dream and Perfect Blue watch.

Perfect foil.

Jeremy: Absolutely.

I mean, I, I think I it's been
a while since I've seen it.

I think Rick William dream goes
in that column of, of movies that

like, oh yes, very well made.

I liked it.

Do not ever wanna see it again.

absolutely.

Yeah.

Left me sort of, huddled in a mass in
the corner after I finished watching it.

But

Emily: I mean there are life
experiences that change us.

It doesn't necessarily mean that we're
gonna wanna do it over and over again.

Right?

Jeremy: Yeah.

It's right there.

Right there with hereditary for
me on a movie that after it, I

was like, all right, that was.

An excellently made film.

I will not be watching it again.

yeah, unless it's for this
podcast in either of those cases.

So, with all that in mind what do we
recommend people check out if they

want more movies like this, or what do
we want them to check out regardless?

Ben: What you know, for another kind of,
I guess, psychological horror I think

I've recommended this already in the past.

But I'm gonna, but something that
kind of hate how so had that sense

of like main characters kind of
losing their grip on reality.

And it's sometimes being meta in
disco interns, or the medium of film.

I'm gonna recommend archive 81.

It again, has a very frustrating cliff
hanger and it was canceled after one

season because that how Netflix do baby.

But that one season is really, really good
and really tense and dark and gripping.

Jeremy: And this is also a podcast.

I don't actually know
if the podcast finished.

So if you might find out more about what's
supposed to happen in the show before they

canceled it, if you listen to the podcast.

But but as a podcast I started listening
to before it was ever a show what I

would recommend is another film by
Stoy Cohen, which I've watched recently

because I've started doing this now.

I've seen most of them now.

But with some of the same issues,
which I've mentioned in this, I

would definitely recommend to Paka.

It is a really imaginative and
well thought out movie It is.

I had not seen it until very recently, but
somebody made the comparison between this

and inception, the Christopher Nolan movie
as stories about people going into dreams.

And this is kind of what I like.

It was what I was hoping inception was
going to be, because inception is so

boring and super beige in its presentation
of like what people's dreams are like

that I just know, like Christopher Nolan's
movies are as weird and creative as he

gets like, this is what he dreams like,
apparently it's all in very, like, be.

Chicago blue tones.

And it's like, not, not
particularly interesting.

I wanted something wild
and crazy from that movie.

What I got, something pretty
much more wild from was Paka,

which has some uh, some really
interesting fun stuff going on.

And it, some of the same like stuff
that we were kind of hedging on in

this one, which is like, oh, this is
a, this guy is a fat guy that eats all

the time and he's extremely fat, like
comically fat, but also he is a person

and you should treat him like one anyway.

But yeah, Def PCA's worth checking
out along with, you know, millennium

actress, which is another sort
of, of these more, more serious,

but also sort of weird and scary.

Sometimes Satoshi Kon movies,

Emily: On that I, I do wanna ref
refer to paranoia agent, which is his

series, which is somewhere between
like Perfect Blue and paprika.

Cuz you have some pretty intense horror.

You have a psychological
thriller, you have some kind

of psychedelic shit going on.

But paranoid agent, I don't know if you
can find it, but it used to be on TV.

And it actually has visually diverse
characters that aren't being like, oh,

this guy's fat or you know, this guy,
like there are humanized characters.

There are characters that are.

But if a paranoid agent had any issue, I
would say is that it tries to do too much.

Jeremy: It's currently on
ation streaming right now.

Okay.

So yeah.

Ben: Check that out.

I remember when it was on adult swim.

Emily: Yeah.

I watched it on adult
swim back in the booth

Ben: man, fucking adult
school, adult swim.

That was where I was

Emily: at hell.

Yeah.

And just like watching paranoia
agent right next to IHA is, is a

Ben: oh yeah.

And then they, and then they put
on cowboy be up and Wolf's reign.

Jeremy: Yeah.

I would say this for that though
watching real cowboy be bop and realizing

how much more cursing and suggestive
languages in cowboy be bop and what's

in the adult swim version was wild.

Oh

Emily: yeah.

I also, I know I'm, I'm breaking
rules here, but I also just wanna

shout out to, if you can find it,
this is another one it's harder

to find than, than paranoid agent.

There is an anthology film called
memories and Toshi K did a kind

of weird space, like literal space
opera sequence in that he wrote it.

It's called magnetic rose.

If you can find it, it's called
magnetic rose again, it is incredible.

So, and I think a Kato TMO
is, does shit for that too.

But yeah I don't know where you
can get it, but it's out there.

Memories is the name of the movie,
this, the Satoshi Kon sequence that

I am specifically recommending.

Again, it is called magnetic rose.

It is literal space opera,
and you will find out why

Jeremy: right.

All right.

Well I think that does
it for us for tonight.

As for us, you can find Emily on, on,

Emily: I have a really big
social media presence on the

Ben: yeah.

Jeremy: Yes, as for the rest of us,
you could find Emily mega moth on

Twitter and mega underscore moth
on Instagram and@megamoth.net.

Ben is on Twitter at Ben, the con and
on their website@benconcomics.com.

We can pick up all of their books.

And finally for me, you can find
me on Twitter and Instagram at

J Rome five eight, and on my
website at Jeremy Whitley dot.

We gonna check out
everything that I write.

And of course the podcast is on Patreon.

It progressively horrified on our
website@progressivelyhorrifieddottransistor.fm

and on Twitter at prog horror pod, we
would love to hear from you, come share

all your thoughts on Perfect Blue with us.

We're still trying to figure out what
it's even about and what just happened.

Speaking of loving to hear from you,
we would love if you would rate,

interview the podcast, wherever you're
listening to this five stars from

you, helps us find new listeners.

Thank you again for joining us and
thank you as always to Emily and Ben

for joining me guys, it's been a ball.

This was this was a good one.

This was no old.

Ben: good.

No, this was a nice break from
something as terrible as old God.

Jeremy: Absolutely.

Well, we will see you all again next time.

And until then stay horrified.

Alicia: Progressively horrified
as created by Jeremy Whitley and

produced by me, Alicia Whitley.

This episode featured the horror
squad, Jeremy Ben and Emily.

All opinions expressed by the
commentators are solely their own

and do not represent the intent or
opinion of the filmmakers nor do they

represent the employers, institutions,
or publishers of the commentators.

Our theme music is epic
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Oh, six.

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We can't wait to hear from you.

Thanks for listening.

Bye.