Alicia: Hey, just a heads up the
episode you're about to listen to,

Freaks, directed by Tod Browning
and written by Tod Robbins includes

descriptions of ableism, gaslighting,
dismemberment, and transphobic violence

and our hosts have ranked this movie
as existentially disconcerting.

If you'd like to learn more,
please visit our website at

progressivelyhorrified.transistor.fm
for show notes, relevant links

and transcripts of each episode.

After the spooky music, we will
talk about the episode in full.

So be forewarned.

There will be spoilers.

Now let's get on with the show.

Jeremy: Good evening and welcome to
Progressively Horrified: the podcast

where we hold horror to progressive
standards it never agreed to.

Tonight, we're talking about the
1932 proto-horror classic Freaks.

I am your host, Jeremy Whitley.

And with me tonight, I have a
panel of cinephiles and Cenobites.

First they're here to invade your
house and find queer content in all

your favorite movies, my co-host
and comic book writer, Ben Kahn.

Ben, how are you tonight?

Ben: I'm always nostalgic for when
it's a real lion doing the roary thing

to let you know a movie's starting.

Jeremy: Right?

And we picked her up at the spooky
crossroads of anime and sexy

monster media it's co-host and
comic book artist Emily Martin.

How are you tonight, Emily?

Emily: I am not as nostalgic for the
sexism, but the rest of it, including

the lion's roar definitely has its charm.

Jeremy: You could be nostalgic for
the, uh, sexism, but it's hard to be

nostalgic for something that's never left.

Emily: Yeah.

Jeremy: And our special guests tonight,
it's the creative team behind the comic

book series Awake and the upcoming graphic
novel Nix, available for pre-order now,

it's Susan Beneville and Brian Hess!

Brian: Thanks for having us!

Susan: I'm very excited to be
talking about this movie because

it's one of the few horror films
I can actually sit through.

So...

Brian: Is that cause it's
only sixty minutes long?

Susan: No, it's because
it's not super scary.

Brian: Oh, okay.

Ben: For you listeners at home,
some free behind the scenes

knowledge going into this.

This is Freaks the 1932 film.

It is indeed an hour long.

The original cut was 90 minutes which was
declared to "grotesque", quote unquote,

by shitty 1930s dehumanizing standards.

So it was cut down to the 60
minute cut that exists today.

Uh, The original 90 minute cut is
now a lost film and no known version

is known to exist, unfortunately.

Jeremy: Yeah, it apparently screened
a number of times at, you know, one

or two theaters in its original form.

It had some issues with test screening
audiences and things like that.

So they pulled it and they
cut it down to the 60 minutes.

You will notice that it has been cut
because there will be several moments

where it's like, wait what just happened?

Ben: And for a 60 minute movie, there's
a lot of scenes that contribute nothing.

That have no purpose.

Brian: Yeah.

Jeremy: It's as much a series of vignettes
and character pieces as it is anything.

It is directed by Todd Browning, who
is, uh,, by trade, a horror director.

It is written by a whole slew of people,
including it is suggested by the story

"Spurs" by Clarence Aaron Robbins.

It is written by Willis
Goldbeck and Leon Gordon.

And there are also several people who
were uncredited, who did work on the

script, including Al Boasberg, Charles
MacArthur, and Edgar Allen Woolf.

And, uh, the IMDb description of this
says "a circus's beautiful trapeze

artist agrees to marry the leader
of the sideshow performers, but his

deformed friends discover she is only
marrying him for his inheritance."

Which is, within itself, an
interesting choice of words

in the description on IMDb.

Ben: It's not inaccurate, but it's
important to note that that plot

doesn't enter the story until 40
minutes into this hour long film.

Emily: Yeah.

Jeremy: I mean, it's the second
scene and then 40 minutes later.

Brian: I kind of only knew
about this movie in passing.

I have a friend who's just a huge
horror movie buff and I don't really

even consider this a horror film.

You know what I mean?

I don't know what you guys think.

It's more of like a drama, I guess?

Ben: I would agree

-if this is a horror film by the
standards of 1930s, audiences going, "Ah!

Disabled people!

Scary!"

Susan: It's interesting because it
definitely was considered a horror

film at the time, I think partly
because of Todd Browning's reputation.

But like you point out, there's
really nothing other than like

unpleasantly, emotionally horrible.

Until that very last bit,
when, they turn on them.

And that's why I refer to it as a
sort of a proto-horror because it

sort of lays the groundwork for
a lot of horror that has come.

You can see elements of it
in American Horror Story.

You can see elements of it in, the
recent Nightmare Alley, but it, in and of

itself, I don't think qualifies as horror.

Emily: Yeah.

Jeremy: Yeah.

There is, I think one scene, maybe
five minutes from the end of the movie

that has a real like horror feel to it.

But also I think by that point, you are
so much more invested in the characters

who are doing the horrible things than
the people that are having the horrible

things done to them ,that it just feels
more like a revenge thing than anything.

Emily: Yeah.

It definitely feels like justice.

And, there's a lot of horrible stuff
that people are doing, but it's more

of a drama kind of situational horror.

And again, I'm sure that
people in 1932 were shocked by

what they saw on the screen.

But it is important to mention, there's
the whole "for the time" argument,

which is, for the time" this movie
was incredibly unusual in the fact

that it was humanizing these people.

The fact that they are
depicted is different from the

way that they are depicted.

And the movie goes to great pains
to show these people's daily lives,

which I think is, part of why we have
these scenes that don't seem to have

any, like any relevance to the plot.

If we condense the events of this
movie to those that are relevant to

the plot, it'd be like five minutes.

That said there are some very,
very upsetting depictions of

people who probably do not have the
ability to consent to be on film.

But for the most part, these people
are performers that are doing

some fantastic jobs performing,
especially Hans and Frieda.

Now I don't know very much trivia about
this movie and I would love for all of

you who have actually done the research,
which I, just got to that special

message prologue, Susan that you sent us.

Do you want to talk
about that a little bit?

Susan: About the special message prologue?

I believe it was added later
after the initial reactions to it.

And what's interesting about the special
message prologue was basically a way

of saying- it was sort of priming the
pump to humanize these people, but it's

incredibly patronizing at the same time.

At the end of the- the thing, they're
basically talking about how historically,

people with disabilities- and of course
they use far more charged language in this

prologue for the film- historically how
they've been abused and turned out and

used as freaks and used as entertainments.

And they make the point that,
these are people who have, the full

range of human emotions and for
the most part human intelligence.

And so they're doing the thing where
they're humanizing them, trying to create

this historical reference, but then
at the very end, they refer to them as

blunders which I think is just great.

It's this hopeful ending to the prologue
where they basically say hopefully with,

changes in modern science, we won't have
as many of these blunders in the future.

There you go, thank you for that.

Jeremy: An interesting thing to note
about this is that Todd Browning is

somebody who worked in the carnival
and in the circus and would have

known people like this as, people
that he worked with on a daily basis.

And I think that really shows because
I think there's quite a bit of stuff in

this movie that doesn't scan probably
the way it did when it came out.

That, you know, especially if the language
is a, is a little rough, uh there's

you know, some things that are done and
said that are intentionally coarse and

horrible, but I think it is incredibly
ahead of its time in that uh, it both

treats disabled people in these, you
know, many versions that they come in in

this movie as real people, we don't see
them from the perspective of the side

show, we don't see what they're doing
when they're out there in the circus.

We see what they're
like behind the scenes.

And we see them as real people
living real and complicated lives-

Emily: You know, the only time we're on
the other side of the curtain is the sort

of framing pieces about the punishment of
the character that rejected the code of

the freaks as it is stated in the movie.

And there's something that's,
I think is very important.

There is a really big theme in this
movie about how the only reason to

feel shame is to feel shame, uh,
especially in the beginning when

they're on the, uh, the French estate.

And the young people are afraid.

The Lord of this estate comes along
and tries to shoo them off and then was

told that they were part of the circus.

So he's like, okay, you can, you can stay.

But their matron basically says,
I've told you never to be afraid

of these people, and basically
shames them for feeling afraid.

Ben: For a movie with this very loose
vignette feel if that's the way you're

going to do it, I do appreciate how
much of this movie was dedicated

to just showing these people as
performers and their unique talents.

Uh, like the scene where it's pretty much
no plot or character development happens.

It's just a showcase of Prince
Randian as The Living Torso rolling

a cigarette with his mouth and it's
just like an amazing feat of talent.

Even if it then does end with the
pretty astoundingly incredible

line delivery on the line, "I
can do anything with my mouth!"

Jeremy: That's clearly a scene that's
had some chopping done to it as well

because the cuts are very noticeable.

Let's jump into a little
bit of what happens in this.

This movie is wild in and of itself.

Because basically we get the set
piece that we enter in on of, these

people at a freak show in a circus
are being shown something terrifying.

And we're told that this used to
be this beautiful trapeze artist.

We don't see what the thing is yet, but,
you know, we get the fade into Cleopatra,

played by Olga uh, Baclanova who is this
beautiful trapeze artist, who's being

watched by these by this couple who both
have dwarfism there's Hans and Frieda

who are actually played by a real life
brother and sister Harry and Daisy Earls.

And they're watching, and Hans is
talking a lot about how beautiful

she is, watching her very closely.

Frieda is clearly jealous of this.

Knows what's going on right
away even though Hans denies it.

And, uh, Fr- Hans starts flirting
with Cleo, as soon as she, she comes

out of the tent and Cleo is not above
flirting back and immediately is just-

seems to be clocking how much she
can take advantage of Hans from the

first time they talk in the movie.

Ben: So right off the bat, my first
thought was, man, we fucked up not

pairing this with Nightmare Alley
and doing a whole ass carnival month.

We clearly should've
made this a theme thing.

Brian: Have you guys-

Ben: Oh well.

Brian: Have you all seen it?

I've seen it.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Ben: Yeah.

We did Nightmare Alley,
like a few weeks ago.

I'm just being like we should've
scheduled these together.

Aww!

What were we thinking?

Oh, well!

Brian: That was the first thing
I thought with the first scene

where they're looking down-

Susan: Exactly.

Brian: I was like, this
is Nightmare Alley.

Okay.

And it had the reveal and everything.

Susan: Yeah, I did too.

Brian: I think the biggest thing I
took from it was the little like slice

of life things that are happening
where like, the Siamese twins are,

one of them is getting engaged.

And I thought it was really interesting
how one of them, the other one reacted

when the other one was kissed and you
know, it was little stuff like that.

That was kind of surprising.

And I know this is slightly off
topic, but the cinematography was

actually really cool for the time.

And for somebody that doesn't watch movies
that- I usually watch stuff from like

the sixties on, I rarely go back unless
it's like something really big, like a

big milestone movie, but I was really
impressed with the cinematography here.

It was really great.

Ben: Yeah.

Everything with the conjoined twins and
their different fiances feels like it

could have been like a movie all its own.

Like a 1950s, Some Like
It Hot style comedy.

Brian: Yeah.

Emily: Yeah.

Some of the humor was certainly
utilizing some of these characters

abilities as butts of jokes.

There's the, the guy who, as far as I
know the performer, he just has a stutter?

Ben: He was like part of
Hercules's strong man show.

Emily: Yeah!

Susan: I could not figure that out.

Ben: Okay.

So what blew me away about the guy
with the stutter is they do the

classic, like Porky Pig style joke,
where he stumbles over a word twice.

And then the third time does it
in a completely different word.

This movie came out three years
before Porky Pig was created.

Was this style of stuttering joke,
just like already in the zeitgeist?

And now it's we just
attributed to Porky Pig.

Was this like a big thing already?

Like an easy go-to joke
that was already in the air?

Emily: That's a good question because I-

Susan: I think so.

I think so.

Emily: Yeah.

Cause it seems like something that
I would see with Three Stooges.

I mean, I, you know.

Jeremy: Let's, uh, let's go down
our list of characters we meet here.

In between these first two general
outside the circus scenes, we have

the scene that Emily was referring to,
which is where we get Madame Tetrallini

and the children from the circus sort
of running around on this estate.

And you know, there's the one guy
who's just, so he just saw these scary

things and he's called the land owner
to come kick these creatures out.

The land owner is like, "Oh,
these, these guys here?"

And Madame Tetrallini is like, "Oh no,
these are the children from the circus."

And landowner is like,
"Oh, they're children.

From a circus.

What's wrong with you.

They're fine."

And I guess, you know, he's
supposed to be our like, feel good

surrogate for the audience, right?

That we're like, yeah, they're children.

We understand that we are good people.

Emily: Although they do have
an interesting point of view

cut to characters that are
definitely not children which is

kind of weird signaling to me.

Some of the people had, I don't
know what the condition is called.

That-

Susan: The microcephalics?

Emily: Yes.

Susan: With the smaller head?

Emily: Yeah.

You know, I'm trying to avoid the
language of the time, which is slur-laden.

Jeremy: There's Schlitzie,
Elvira and Jenny Lee who all,

appear throughout the movie.

But yeah, they're, they, I think for
most strongly into that category of

probably are not able to like consult
knowingly to being in this movie.

But yeah we get to see them and
then we get back to the circus.

This is where we get sort of the wider
introduction to the circus characters.

We have the Rollo Brothers who suck.

They're just two performer brothers.

And they mostly hang around with Hercules,
who's the strong man, who really sucks.

Ben: Fuck Hercules.

Jeremy: Yeah.

He said, he's a big dude
and he's a shitty dude.

That's his whole role in this movie.

The first time we see him Venus
is- is leaving him because he's-

she doesn't really specify why,
other than that, he's awful to her.

But you can only imagine.

Emily: Yeah.

Yeah.

Jeremy: Venus does the, she is , one of
the other- they call them, tall people

or big people in this- you know, is a
performer that just has a skill that

they're doing in this and are played by
actors and actresses rather than people

who are circus performers to begin with.

And she is-

Ben: She has a whole thing with Phroso,
who I kind of love doesn't have a real

name is only known by his clown name.

He is only Phroso.

Emily: He's really dedicated to that part.

Ben: He's so dedicated, which I got to
say, seeing a character so dedicated

to an art form that's so dumb.

Man, did I relate to that
as a comic book writer!

Jeremy: Yeah, I think Venus is interesting
because she's- she's the animal trainer.

She's got her seals.

That seal really seemed
to be responding to her.

I don't know if she's actually
got animal training expertise or

somebody else that was there to
just be like, all right, seal.

Get in the pen.

Ben: I enjoyed that brief shot of a
seal, but I also felt bittersweet.

Cause I'm like, whether it's a
circus or a movie about circuses,

I know there's no way that seal
hasn't been mistreated in real life

in order to get them into that box.

Emily: Yeah.

Fortunately there are not very many
depictions of animals in the circus.

There's a cow and there's a seal.

But no Willem Dafoe.

Jeremy: I mean, I feel like Phroso is
as close as we get to Willem Dafoe.

His thing is that he's a
clown, that's his whole thing.

Um,

Emily: And he's sexist.

Jeremy: Hmm....

I feel like they're trying
to depict him positively.

He's introduced by Venus yelling
at him for being there basically.

And he's, he pulls out a,
you dames kinda bit with her.

But then she'll apologize.

And he'll be like, you don't
realize how great you are, that's

your problem, Uh, I feel like
he's supposed to be a decent guy.

And they do make reference to he says you
should have known me before my surgery.

And they do not specify
what that surgery is.

There's lots of speculation online.

Cause I went, I went and looked it up and
everybody was like, yeah, I don't know.

It's theoretically got something
to do with him, uh, you know, not

being able to have kids or whatever.

Brian: Which is so sexist.

He's like yelling at her for uh, you
know, women aren't respected until they

get older and and they don't realize how
good they have it until they're old and

nobody wants them anymore or whatever.

I think you said something like that.

Emily: Yeah, I mean he- he was
depicted as a protagonist character,

like a sympathetic character, but he,
was a very casually sexist asshole.

And-

Jeremy: I have a hard time hating Phroso
though, cause he gets a date with Venus

and forgets about it cause he's too
busy making his gag like clown bath?

Ben: It's a bathtub on wheels.

I don't know what the gag supposed
to be, but I really want to see it.

Jeremy: It's a bathtub on
wheels that goes over him.

He has like straps on it so that
he can, you know, run in on it

or sit in it, pretend to be, you
know, in a bath in the thing.

And he's gotten so into making
this thing that he is just totally

forgotten that he's supposed to
be going on a date with this girl.

Ben: He's so serious about
being a clown that it's im- it's

impossible not to be endearing.

Like he just cares about his craft.

So much.

Emily: Yeah.

And he's not like a total asshole.

Cause he's look, I do care about you.

Even though you're a woman, but.

Ben: It's the best romance
the movie gives us.

Emily: Yeah.

Susan: That's true.

But yeah, I agree with
you, like about the sexism.

At first, I was like, he's a
creeper, he's spying on her.

Then he comes in and he's silent.

As he's removing his makeup, he begins
to reveal his true self it seems.

And then he's, kind of a jerk, really
intense jerk in that first scene.

And then he becomes likable.

And at some point I was like,
trying to figure out like the

into her is he not into her?

Or is he not able to be into her?

Is he's supposed to be like, there's
like place placeholder for like, gay?

I don't know what he is.

Until then there's the
big moment between them.

And I'm like, oh, okay.

I guess he's into her.

Brian: He's just into himself, though.

I feel like he's into his clown thing.

Like he just said he didn't start talking
to her until most of his makeup was off.

You know what I mean?

And then he forgets about the date
and it's just so I don't know.

I felt like he was the most
self-absorbed character in the movie.

I don't know if you guys even- I
mean, other than- other than Cleo.

Cleo.

Emily: Yeah.

Protagonist.

Quote unquote.

Brian: Yeah.

Susan: I think there's a,
redeeming moment with the uh,

with Schlitzie uh, And the others.

Jenny Lynn.

Speaking to them as people and
he's talking to them and, engaging

with them in a different way.

Like he treats them as like
normal friends that he has.

Yeah.

Jeremy: He and Venus, both respect and
then love the other people they work with.

Even the people that like
don't look like them, that they

don't necessarily understand.

They're both very excited to go see The
Bearded Lady's baby, when The Bearded

Lady has a baby shortly after this.

But then we have the Rollo Brothers and
Hercules and Cleo who are all just shits.

They're real shits.

Emily: Yeah.

God.

Ben: Just the shittiest of shits.

Jeremy: Yeah.

They're just bad people who are bad to
all of the other people in this movie.

But yeah, I mean then you have characters
like Roscoe who are kind of in the

middle, you know, he is he has a stutter
and he's also dating Daisy, who's one of

the conjoined twins- Daisy and Violet.

Ben: I don't know if it's an explicit
theme of this movie, but I think this

movie does a very good job depicting how
all of these people are circus performers.

They are in the same circumstances, like
the same economic reality, and yet through

discrimination against the disabled, they
like, especially like Cleo and Hercules,

routinely- I guess the guy Roscoe, I
think his name is, uh, the husband-

routinely put, to a lesser degree,
putting down the disabled in order to make

themselves feel bigger and higher status.

Emily: Yeah.

Roscoe, is depicted as just
perpetually frustrated with Violet

who is conjoined, the conjoined
twin of Daisy, his, his uh, fiance.

Um...

Ben: That's what I'm saying.

It's a whole other-

Jeremy: more of a type than anything.

He's just like a Red Buttons type.

Like-

Ben: It's like a fifties comedy
where it's like, there's the strong

minded sister and then, oh, that
is the circus owner who comes in.

Like this is a whole other wacky
movie that only gets like a few

minutes to play out in this film.

Emily: Yeah.

And it's also pretty interesting
because it is definitely a B plot.

Cause we do follow Daisy and
Violet, we get to see like Violet

making out with her fiance while
Daisy's just sitting there reading.

Jeremy: Her fiance, Mister Rogers,
who will appear in one scene

and never be heard from again.

Emily: Yeah.

Just so we could see how that works.

Which I did appreciate because immediately
that's the question that, that someone's

going to ask is, how does that work?

Roscoe is like you said, he was middling
also because he's not quite he's between

the abled people, but he's not quite there
because of his stutter and everything.

So he is put down and treated like a
joke by people like Hercules, but uh,

you know, he also is kind of transferring
that to Daisy and Violet and trying

really hard to be like a man of the house.

So, and I'm sure there's a
lot of commentary about toxic

masculinity that we can come up
with there, but we'll wait for that.

Jeremy: Who have we missed so far?

We mentioned Prince Randian who
is billed as The Living Torso.

He's a man with no arms and legs who
demonstrates doing things with his mouth

several times throughout the movie.

That guy's pretty great.

Yeah he's real charismatic on
screen, except for that one line

about doing anything with his
mouth, which has a weird cut to it.

So I'm guessing uh, there
was other stuff there.

We also have Johnny Eck who is billed
as Half Boy in this, who is a man

with no legs who walks on his hands.

We have Koo Koo who is billed
as The Bird Girl in this.

Ben: Josephine Joseph, the half woman
half man who a recipient of just

some wanton, transphobic violence.

So, uh, you know, throw that
on your trigger warnings.

Emily: Yeah, definitely.

Brian: Isn't aren't they just like
hanging outside and he just comes out

and says, what are you looking at?

I can't remember exactly what he said.

What are you looking at-

Jeremy: He sees-

Brian: and punches her out?

Jeremy: Well, he sees Hercules and
Cleo kissing, or Josephine Joseph sees

Hercules and Cleo kissing and uh, Hercules
just comes out and just decks him.

And then Cleo laughs like it's
the funniest fucking thing.

Emily: There was a bit earlier when
uh, Josephine Joseph was walking by-

Susan: Hercules and Roscoe.

Emily: Yes.

And Roscoe's like, you know, she
likes you, but he doesn't and

everyone has a great big laugh.

Jeremy: Yeah, they did a bit that's almost
identical to a bit, they do about three

minutes earlier with the Rollo Brothers
when, when Josephine Joseph walks by.

It was yeah, they, I don't know.

It feels like they have one thing to say
about Josephine Joseph, and it is not a

particularly enlightened point of view.

Susan: No, but it is
the bad guys doing it.

You know, you never get
Phroso or Venus doing it.

And I think we got a lot of like
sympathetic shots and like reaction

shots from Joseph Josephine.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Susan: That, and I mean, I
think the whole time, like when

Hercules clocks them, it's yeah.

That, that sucked that I think the
film makes you think that sucks.

That was wrong.

Emily: Yeah.

Susan: You know, as opposed to, oh, that
would validate with the audience what

they're expecting the audience to feel.

Jeremy: And it definitely feels like
it's supposed to be a bad guy thing.

It's not, despite it being.

Shot in a way that feels very, I
don't know, Three Stooges in the way

that he just winds up and punches
her like it's, super, a super

twenties punch delivered there.

But yeah it's- That's maybe the roughest
part of the movie Josephine doesn't really

get a speaking part in this movie at all.

Emily: Hercules punches Joseph.

But it's still like harassing the,
what the, this film would depict as

an innocent woman, because the film
has, even though it is, incredibly

old-fashioned and xenophobic and all this
kind of stuff about, gender fluidity and

plurality and all this kind of stuff.

They do make a point to say that
Josephine Joseph is both and also,

you know, a member of the community.

Because Josephine Joseph is,
is always dressed that way.

It's not something that they-
Like, it's not a mask that they

remove, like the clown, right?

That, that, that has something
to do with their true identity,

as opposed to a stage identity.

Jeremy: We also do have a couple
of other recurring characters.

There's Frances O'Connor,
who's the armless girl.

We, we see frequently throughout the
thing doing, everyday tasks with,

uh, with her feet to sort of set in
the middle of the frame, doing stuff.

It's really all she's got.

And then Angeleno is sort of the
third character with dwarfism.

Who's really just there to
help move the plot along later.

Ben: Yeah, he's there to see things-
plot relevant things- happening.

Yeah.

And give our meme worthy, famous moment,
ooga booga ling "One of Us" like song.

Emily: Yeah.

Susan: Oh yeah.

That was interesting.

Jeremy: Yeah.

So by this point, by the time we've
introduced all these guys, we get to

Cleo already borrowing significant
amounts of money from Hans, who's

clearly a sucker for her at this point.

Venus has left Hercules and he is
immediately moved on to Cleo who

is simultaneously leading Hans
on while clearly uh, you know,

sleeping around with Hercules and
making an effort to hide Hercules.

Uh, So as to continue to
extort stuff from from Hans.

So yeah, this is where Josephine
sees Hercules kissing Cleo and, uh,

then Hercules just punches Josephine.

And then we just have like a jump in time.

Ben: Felt bad.

Jeremy: Yeah.

It felt very bad.

Ben: I'm not sure what time is
because we keep just, we're always

in the waiting area of the circus.

So it's never- Time is
difficult in this movie.

Emily: Yeah.

It's hard to follow because of the they
make references like when we get to Paris,

when the what's his name, the clown?

Ben: Phroso.

Emily: Phroso!

Oh, yeah.

When Phroso is talking to Schlitzie
and he's telling her that he's going

to get her beautiful hat with a
big feather when they get to Paris.

And then later we see her with a hat.

So we have to assume that
they've been traveling.

Ben: Cleo learns about Hans's inheritance
and comes up with the plan to marry

and to kill him for that inheritance.

The very next scene is
their wedding dinner.

Emily: Yeah.

Susan: Mm-hmm.

Ben: Like the very next scene.

There is zero time in
between these actions.

Jeremy: Moves at a clip.

Brian: Right after Hercules punches
out Josephine Joseph like, there's this

weird edit that just goes to Hans and
Frieda where Hans is kind of like looking

off, like to the left or something.

And I thought he was watching this happen.

That's what I thought, but I could be
wrong because like you guys said, there is

no time in this movie, things just happen.

So

Susan: I thought that he was not looking
at her because he was so ashamed.

You know, because he, this is when
he's, you know, breaking up with Frieda.

Ben: Meanwhile-

Susan: Just before the wedding.

Ben: Hans is spending, apparently
I guess months just giving gifts

to like lavish gifts to Cleo.

And at no point, does he break it off
with Frieda, until she like forces him to.

Emily: Yeah.

Ben: Hans.

Hans!

Come on.

Emily: And she's a champion about that,
like in terms of just her patience

and- she's putting up with too much.

IMHO.

Ben: I'm amazed that she survived this
movie and wasn't some sort of too good

for this sinful Earth, like tragic sort
of, and then Hans loses her, like, ah, if

only I'd known true love while I had it!

Aaaaaaahhhhhhh!!!

Tragedy!!!

Does it count as passing the Bechdel
Test when Venus and Frieda are

talking about Cleo stealing Hans?

I'm going to say it passes
it, but with a C minus.

Emily: Yeah, I think it's a, it's not
quite, I mean, they're still talking

about something that a dude did.

Jeremy: I would say that this
movie doesn't really pass

the reverse Bechdel Test.

There's no scene where two men are
talking and it's not about a woman.

Ben: Not true.

We have the scene of Hercules and
Roscoe discussing that Roscoe isn't

doing a good job being a Roman
lady in the strong man lion show.

Jeremy: I mean, They are
talking about a lady.

That lady just happens to also be Roscoe.

Ben: Yes!

Emily: Yeah.

I wanted to go back really quick to
the scene where uh, Venus is leaving

Hercules and she was yelling at, uh,
Phroso while he was taking off his makeup.

And she actually says all of this stuff
that basically spits back all of this kind

of sexist rhetoric into his face, where
she says oh, I guess we women are funny.

We're all tramps.

You know, which I thought was a pretty
solid move despite the fact that Phroso

is like, as sexist as it does show us
that Venus is aware of the sexism and-

Jeremy: Therefore whoever is
writing is also aware of the sexism.

Emily: Exactly.

Ben: Wasn't sure how much was like,
deep-seeded misogyny and how much it

was just like mid Atlantic fast-talk.

How you doing?

See?

Like wait, just that, that's just
how movie characters talked in

every fucking movie back then.

Why did we have an accent
that we used only for movies?

Who came up with that?

Emily: Cause it's the thirties
and everybody was like, Meh see?

Ah "dahling".

You know, Like when Frieda was doing-

Ben: 'Meh, there's always trouble
when a dame walks in the room, see?

Emily: Such a dame!

All the dames!

Ben: Clowning's a serious art form, see?

Brian: I think they're-

Jeremy: It makes Frieda
and Hans's adorably German

accent stand out even more.

Brian: Isn't there like a- there was
like an actual reason why people spoke

like that in movies though, wasn't there?

Like-

Ben: There was.

Like being from the Chesapeake
area, fucking mattered.

Emily: Cleo is full of
shit from the get-go.

Like she is there to use and ridicule
Hans as much as possible and only

keep him on that leash as long as she
can get the, uh, the benefits And he

has a speech about his condition and
how people don't take him seriously.

So he, he comes out with the defense
saying like, oh, you think I'm a, just a

baby or I'm a child when I'm a grown man.

And I have the same
feelings that men have.

Now that is super valid.

But Cleo, she's all about, I mean, like

Susan: She likes dudes she can control.

Yeah.

She also, I think pretty obviously
physically digs Hercules.

We never really, and it's a pre-code film,
but we never see her engaging in any kind

of like sexuality actually with Hans.

Like we, they may, they have like
a little wine there's like maybe

one Peck on the cheek or something.

Emily: There was the backrub.

Susan: Oh, yes.

The backrub.

Emily: Very, very
scandalous for this time.

Brian: Backrub!

Ben: I read into it wasn't just that
the movie isn't showing us being

intimate, but that she has never been
intimate with Hans and always kept him

at arms length just because, I mean,
at the wedding, when they're doing

the, like one of us, we accept you.

Like God, she can't even
pretend for any length of time.

Emily: Yeah!

At first I thought she was, she
thought that they were using this

poisoned wine that she had poisoned.

Brian: That's what I thought too.

I thought that same thing
with the way it was shot.

Susan: I'm still trying to
track that bottle of wine.

Ben: Oh, I thought it was
just pure fucking elitism.

Like how dare you.

Susan: I think you're right.

Yeah.

Jeremy: Leading up to the wedding.

I mean, we have sort of all the other
people at the circus gossiping about this.

Like everybody knows that
Cleo's not on the level.

We get Violet getting engaged to Mr.

Rogers, which is a sort of out of
left field scene that doesn't, it

doesn't go much of anywhere other than-

Ben: There is one line in the
movie where I'm like, this is

mean and cruel and discriminatory.

But it's kind of a good fucking line.

And it's when Roscoe and
Phroso see Cleo with Hans and

Roscoe goes, Cleo's on a diet.

Oh

Jeremy: yeah.

I'm

Ben: like, fuck that.

I'm like, I feel like that's yeah.

That's the kind of like those guys like
mean yet clever gossip that people would

fucking say on these kinds of things.

Emily: Yeah.

Even Phroso loses his shit.

Yeah.

Ben: The rest of the scene is just
Phroso fucking dying at that line.

That, that joke fucking kills Phroso.

Jeremy: I appreciate
things that are funny.

No matter how cruel they
are, he's just like Ha!

Comedy.

Emily: I forgot our date,
but I'm in a bathtub!

Jeremy: I'd still like to
go out on a date with you.

I forgot.

But check out this cool bathtub I made.

Ben: Humiliation is very
prevalent in this film.

Jeremy: Yeah.

I think that's actually like, that goes
pretty well with what happens next,

which is Frieda is going out of her
way to try and keep Hans from being

humiliated, even though Hans has sort
of humiliated her already at this point.

Yeah.

She is like, listen, like she's not good.

She's terrible.

She's going to, do horrible things to you.

And Hans is just like Frieda, you
don't know what you're talking about.

She loves me.

It's fine.

Brian: I thought I loved that scene.

That was probably my favorite
scene in the movie when they had

that intimate, like scene together
where it's just them talking.

It was really, I loved
the way it was shot.

There was one where he was on a
frame left and kind of shadow.

And she was in that, in the background,
I love the way, I don't know.

I love the way it was shot.

It was great.

Emily: It was a fantastic drama scene.

Absolutely.

And they were killing it, and yeah,
that's where this movie really is

a drama, it's not that I don't know
exactly how it was presented when

it was released in the thirties.

I'm sure the shock value was there.

I'm certain that it was
surprising for people because

they were expecting a horror.

Susan: Yeah, I mean,
I think it was panned.

I mean, it was, it had a
very negative reaction.

And I've always wondered if that
wasn't because it wasn't a horror

movie and people were disappointed.

I kind of wonder if this is the sort
of sarcastic cynic in me, which is a

whole bunch of people in 1932, went to
the movies and they thought this maybe

based on the poster was going to be
about a bunch of quote unquote freaks.

And they were going to all be able
to sit there and be horrified and,

grossed out and, be able to laugh at
these people and be scared by them.

And in fact, they went to this
film and they were, presented

in this really humane way.

And they were suddenly oh, wait.

The people that we were intending
to be scared by are in fact, the

people we care about in this film.

Emily: Yeah.

Susan: And that's why I wasn't successful.

Emily: It's essentially
a slice of life movie.

I wouldn't call it a
documentary by any means,

Brian: Oh, you're right.

I feel the same way.

I feel, especially, with
just, you're just looking at

relationships, that's all it is.

Emily: Yeah.

Brian: And literally slices of
relationships you know what I mean?

And the fact that you know, we've
talked about that time passing too.

That was really important, you know?

Like I wonder how many days or
weeks this went on, you know?

Like how much time between the
argument between Hans and Frieda

before the wedding, that they don't
really identify or let you know

how much time had actually passed.

Susan: Yeah.

Can we talk about the
don't take don't steal.

My man seen between Frieda and Cleo.

Jeremy: Oh yeah, because
that comes up next.

Essentially this, she doesn't even,
it doesn't even give her a don't

steal my man so much as a, like I
know you're just screwing with him.

Like I know you're going to humiliate
him and like I'm asking you not to.

I'm just asking you to be decent.

Over the course of this conversation,
she thinks that Cleo knows and

inadvertently lets slip that like
Hans, isn't just buying her nice stuff.

Hans actually inherited a fortune.

Like Hans is very rich.

Which is what convinces Cleo
too, that she should marry him.

Ben: He's- He's just doing it
for the love of the circus.

Jeremy: Yeah.

She she talks to Hercules about how she
can marry him and then get his fortune

because, quote, midgets aren't strong.

Implying that she is going to she is
going to marry him with the intention of

murdering him and stealing his fortune.

If you had any question about
what sort of a person Cleo is

by this point in the movie.

Emily: Yeah.

Ben: Cleo has no subtlety or chill.

Like, she doesn't- she hasn't
even had like, oh, interesting.

There's an inheritance.

Oh, well, you know that
I, that doesn't affect me.

She is immediately like really?

Emily: Yeah.

Her eyeballs turn into dollar signs.

Brian: Like laughing about
it to Frieda the whole time.

I think she said what Cleopatra
married to like Hans and you know

what she called herself queen of the
earth or something like that too.

Susan: She said something
like, something like that.

Yeah.

Ben: Queen of the Freaks?

Was it?

Brian: It was, it, it was something
like that, but yeah, she's laying there.

Oh, you know, yeah, like speaking with
Frieda, like she doesn't even care.

She yeah.

You guys are right.

She had no chill at all.

She just doesn't care at all.

Emily: Yeah.

Jeremy: Worst person.

Ben: I think, y-.

It's not even exactly clear
what she wants the money for.

Cause at one point she was
like, Ooh, a platinum bracelet.

I can sell this for a bunch!

To do what?

To buy different bracelets?!

Like what- are you trying
to leave the circus?

Is there more to your character?

Like what is the goal
of money for you, Cleo?

Emily: Just to have it probably,
she's gold-digging from second

one, except for when she's on that-

Jeremy: She doesn't want the gold.

She just wants to put,
the gold on a shelf.

Yeah this is like within two minutes
in the movie, she finds out that

Hans has a bunch of money decides
to marry him and then kill him

and gets Hercules in on the plot.

And then they get married.

And we jumped straight to the wedding
feast which is both the saddest scene in

the movie and I think the most well-known
scene in the movie, because this is where

we get the one of us, one of us gooble
gobble, chant that has appeared in lots

of other things in some form since then.

And I'm sure at some point
I have yelled on here.

But they're uh, passing around the,
the loving cup, everybody is supposed

to take a drink from it and then
Cleo will take a drink from it.

And that will make clear.

One of them, they'll
accept her into the family.

And at the point that this cup comes
to Cleo, she is, she has even less

chill than usual calls them like dirty,
disgusting, or filthy disgusting freaks

and throws the cup, like throws the
contents of the cup and the cup at them.

At which point, everybody else, everybody
else leaves, uh, except for Hans who-

Ben: Well list-

Jeremy: tells her that she's a disgrace.

Ben: Cleo has so no, no chill.

She's flat out making out with Hercules
in front of Hans at their wedding.

Emily: And Frieda, which is
when Frieda's calling out.

She's just like-

Ben: Yeah!

Frieda's at the wedding,
which Frieda- a saint.

Frieda is a fucking saint.

Emily: Yes.

Oh my God.

I know.

Frieda, again, too good for this
world, but she does, stick through it.

You know, and-

Brian: A lot of it though, she sat through
everything and then stormed out, right?

Emily: Yeah.

She sat through the whole wedding...

Ben: Who do you think
officiated that ceremony?

We skipped to the reception.

Who do you think did the ceremony?

Emily: The professor, right?

Jeremy: That's what Mr.

Rogers was there for.

Susan: I was about to say the
owner of the, uh, I think it's

like cap- ship's captain, right?

I pretty sure the owner of
the circus can marry anyone.

Ben: Yeah.

I feel like-

Oh nice.

I feel like an owner of a circus and a
captain of a ship have similar powers.

Susan: But you're right about that scene
where Hans then after being embarrassed

by his new wife kind of calls her on it.

And then they do that really humiliating
thing to him where they, throw him

on top of Cleo's shoulders and-

Emily: oh God.

Susan: Dance around with him.

And I mean, that was just
heartbreaking, you know, you

see him cover his face in shame.

Emily: Yeah.

Which again is the worst thing
that these that can happen.

And that's another thing about
the whole situation with Cleo is

that Hans at the start was like,
oh, you're making fun of me.

And Cleo's like, no, never.

And then this whole time,
that's all she's doing.

And then she, what she is doing is seen
by all of these people as like still

pretty sketch, but because Hans believes
in her and Hans vouches for her, they're

willing to pass her the loving cup
even though, and this is after she's

made out with Hercules at the table.

Y'know?

Cause they're drunk.

Ben: She poisons him with what I looked
it up and it was like rotten food.

Emily: Yeah.

In the Brut.

I don't know where this movie fits
in with the temperance movement.

There's a lot of like anti
alcoholism messaging in this

movie, which I think is important.

Brian: That's interesting.

I didn't think about
that, but you're right.

It's right around that time too.

Susan: So that's great depression.

So it's after it's after
prohibition started.

It's set in France, so it's
okay that they were drinking.

Ben: Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean like France is gonna France.

You can't not be- you can't not be as
wine drinking carnival worker in France.

Emily: But Phroso with this whole like
in the middle of his like misogynistic

tirade, he's like, listen, all you
Dames and those tramps and either you're

tramps or you're old, but don't drink.

Susan: Yeah.

There was that in there.

Emily: Yeah.

This weird, like don't drink kids.

Ben: Which I will grant you is good advice
on like, dealing with a breakup, like,

Hey, you're going through a breakup.

Don't just drink yourself
into oblivion over it.

It's you're absolutely right.

That would have been one of the most
mainstream political debates of the day.

You can't, have alcohol in your
film and not have it be politically

charged in some way in that era.

Emily: Yeah.

And also the fact that they keep saying
every time that Cleo and Hercules do

something absolutely deplorable and
public, they are saying, oh, we're drunk.

And that's their excuse.

You know, it has this-

Ben: Well some things are just timeless.

Emily: Well, yeah, but I mean,
like they're saying like all

these bad people are drinking.

Jeremy: Is Phroso straight-edge?

Ben: Phroso the Straight Edge Clown
sounds way too much like something

from this year and not 1932,

Emily: Some things are timeless.

Susan: They just show-

Emily: Ah!

You've turned my words back on me.

You- You UNO Reversed me.

Brian: That leads into the next scene
though, where they're back in you know

what Cleo's space and Hans is there and
Hercules, and they're basically like

gaslighting him, like, oh, this is fine.

And he's standing there like
half dead, like saying I don't

blame you or something like that.

That was the most awkward scene.

I feel watching in the movie for
me, that was the most awkward thing.

I think I've seen period in a long time.

It's- It was ridiculous.

And I forgot who was watching
them through the window?

Was it-

Susan: Angeleno I think.

Ben: Yeah it was Angeleno.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He was our helpful like
plot solving character.

Susan: Well, he was just
staring all the time.

It began to freak me
out just a little bit.

Just constantly.

Emily: He did one of those good like,
meme moments where he very slowly

like left the frame almost too slowly.

Brian: Back into the shrubs yeah?

Emily: Yeah like the Homer.

Yeah!!

Brian: Pulled a Homer Simpson there.

Susan: Yeah.

I mean, one thing we haven't talked
about is the code, and how they establish

both at the wedding party, and I think
actually before that, this code of, if

you hurt one of us, you heard us all.

And that whole idea around the
wedding party and the, one of us,

one of us chanted this whole idea
of this community and how they are,

they've built their own community.

You know, it's a found family- oh, there
we go, LGBTQ- found family and how you

are, the outsiders create their own
community and world and, in order to

survive, they have to react in a way that
if you hurt one of us, you hurt all of us.

If you love one of us, you love all of us.

And of course we come to
see how that plays out.

Emily: Yeah.

Yeah, I think that the code is referred
to at the very beginning of the film.

Jeremy: Yeah.

It's there.

And then there's a scene, where they're
sort of gossiping about them and they make

clear, like she better than have fucking
hurt him or she's going to be in for it.

Emily: It's very similar.

Well, that, that is also picked up
on in Nightmare Alley, which the new

version of Nightmare Alley, I haven't
seen the old one, but that torch is

taken up by Ron Perlman's character.

Who's like, if you hurt one
of us, you hurt all of us and-

Jeremy: Who couldn't be further
from Hercules if you tried.

Emily: Yeah.

He's definitely, he's more of the Phroso.

Ben: Wildly different ends
of the moral alignment scale.

Emily: Phroso's like, both Ron
Perlman and Willem Dafoe, but

without any of the look, which-

Jeremy: He may not have looks
but he does have a bathtub with

a hole in the bottom of it.

Ben: Again, I didn't know if this is
a does Phroso look weird or is this

just what bodies looked like in 1932?

Susan: I was literally just
thinking the same thing.

Emily: I think it's just he's a guy.

I don't think there's anything
going on with his body.

That is,

Ben: I think he's just a guy.

I don't think we're supposed to see
him as as in any way, not normal.

We're just so used to like, 'roided
out Hugh Jackman, like being on screen.

Yeah.

That we don't know what to do with just a
normal sized actor that doesn't exercise.

Jeremy: Okay, so she poises him
and he, passes out and she calls

the doctor in time to save him.

He wakes up in bed.

She's saved him, but is also slowly
poisoning him to death in his bed.

But he is wise to this as is
everybody else, Angeleno watches

it happen and reports back to them.

And then they set her up to do
it, to do it while everybody is

just hanging around in there.

And a good old Hans sits up
and is like, give me the bottle

of poison, just give it to me.

And she's like, oh, what?

And then they all start
pulling out switchblades, um.

Susan: And a Luger.

Emily: And a Luger, which I'm like-

Jeremy: Yeah and a Luger oh, you just,
you took it to another level there.

Emily: And I just want to say that
dude was walking around on his hands

and carrying a Luger in his jacket.

Susan: Quite an impressive dude.

Emily: Yeah.

These are impressive performance,
but I just want to reinforce this.

Thank you.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Also in what feels like an added on
bit at the end here, Phroso finds

out that Hercules thinks that Venus
knows too much about what's going on.

So he's going to go kill Venus
and her thing while this other

stuff is unfolding with Cleo.

And so Phroso goes to fight.

Hercules is trying to kill
Venus and they have a whole

battle in there moving caravans.

Ben: That felt like they did the
test screening and the studio

is like, we need more action.

Go back to where we got to do some more
reshoots on Freaks to get more action in.

But that's not how they
did things in the 1930s.

So I don't know what the fuck.

Susan: It rained.

We need wagons.

We need puddles.

Jeremy: Well, I think that
they needed something For the

professional actors to do.

Ben: It absolutely feels
like the most high budget-

Brian: more like-

Ben: what's in the movie.

Also, we talk about, the real
actors because this is the 1930s and

Abelism and everything's terrible.

The only freak act, quote unquote
freak actors who are allowed

in the regular studio were the
Siamese twins and Hans and Frieda.

Everyone else was only allowed to be
filmed in a special out of the way

tent that that they put them all in
so that the regular people on the

studio lot wouldn't have to see them.

Susan: This as an MGM production
and it had, actually for

the time, a decent budget.

Cause it was coming up of
Browning's success with Dracula.

Ben: Um, $310,000 budget,
according to a Wikipedia.

Emily: Which in today's
budget is a lot more.

Brian: Yes.

After

Emily: It's a lot more.

I do not know them, the maths.

Jeremy: Dollar sign, dollar
sign, dollar sign, dollar sign.

4 dollar signs.

Yeah, Hercules and Phroso roll around
in the mud, the caravan crashes.

It is unclear why.

uh, I guess maybe it's the fighting in
the caravan that's causing it to crash.

But it's one of those, like the horses
catch fire and explode kind of crashes.

Ben: I would have loved so hard if
the horses exploded in this movie.

Emily: Again, 1930s budget.

I don't know if they could have a

Ben: They would have blown up any actual
horses with real TNT and it would've

been like what fucking animal rights?

Brian: Before, too far along.

I want to point out how
he got in the carriage.

I don't know why he didn't just break the
window, but he like kicked the bottom out

of the back of, I don't even know why.

I didn't know what was happening.

Susan: There's a muscle man.

Brian: Yeah like, do
you guys remember that?

Right.

Susan: Yeah.

Why didn't he just open the door?

Ben: It was very confusing.

Venus?

Also confused about
what's going on in this.

Well,

Jeremy: so we just kicked in the bottom of
it and then jump off the caravan and then

dose back in through the broken bottom.

Susan: Yeah, that's right.

Emily: Yeah.

I mean, there's like, there's the
whole car chase situation where, you

know, th the caravans, the interiors
are definitely not related to the

exterior shots in this, more than ever.

And then of course, with exterior shots-

Jeremy: You're so cynical.

Don't think they really filmed
this in a moving caravan?

Emily: I'm sorry.

I-

Brian: It's on a rig with
some poor guy wiggling around.

Emily: Yeah.

Well, that's what I'm saying.

Like, if it was actually filmed
in a caravan, they'd only be

going like, five miles an hour or
whatever, but it would be shot.

Like they were going 50
or something like that.

Jeremy: The thing is booking, especially
every time they cut outside to the

horses, the horses look like they
are fleeing from lava or something.

They're like on that level of panicked.

Emily: Looks like they sped up the film.

Yeah, they did speed up the film cause
those horses were like jittering.

Ben: Like they're running
from whatever fucking trainers

forcing them to be in this movie.

Emily: The seal was like, "Get out!"

Jeremy: As Phroso and Hercules are
fighting, everybody else starts

to show up crawling underneath the
wagons with their various knives

and Lugers and other weapons.

And a Hercules catches
a knife to the stomach.

And that is the last we see of Hercules.

Like he, he catches a knife
and everybody closes in on him.

Apparently in the longer cut, there is
a scene where uh, Hercules is depicted

singing soprano afterwards implying
that he had a surgery of his own.

Involuntary, presumably.

But that is left out of this.

Ben: If you listen to our
episode on a hard candy.

There you go.

Jeremy: Know all about that one.

Brian: Not to mention Prince
Randian with the knife in his

mouth, crawling through the mud.

That was really creepy.

Ben: Yeah.

And this is where I, I so struggled
to call this movie a horror film

because the scene where everywhere
Cleo and Hercules go the side-show

performers are there and hiding under
things and creepily staring at them.

It's definitely the most like out
of context, horror moment, but

in context, I'm completely on the
side of the side show performers.

Oh, absolutely.

They're objectively the
protagonists in that scene.

Emily: Yeah.

These are the avenging angels here
to avenge Hans's his abuse and

Brian: The payoff though.

That's what you're waiting for.

You want something bad
to happen to this person.

And you're just watching her run
around and scream and sheer terror

of what's about to happen to her.

And then you don't see it.

Emily: Yeah.

Yeah.

But when you see the aftermath.

Brian: Oh yeah.

Susan: They've spent the entire
film, humanizing these people,

and then at the very end of
the film, they dehumanize them.

Like they are creatures
crawling through the mud.

Like even the ones who could,
stand up and walk, or not that

everybody is in the mud, on their
bellies, crawling through the mud.

And I, I just thought that was
really interesting choice to make

at that time, because it's sort of
like, it's the code and all that

stuff of the group and they're...

And yeah.

I'm rooting for him too.

And I don't think they're horrible.

And yet they're in this last
moment sort of dehumanized.

Emily: Yeah.

Well, especially with Schlitzie there.

Because she's like the
other guys all have.

Kind of This, this essence that they've
been through shit, they're hardened.

Especially dude with his little newsy
cap and his switchblade and, you

know, he might as well be like about
to take your kick your ass to music.

Uh, I guess he did, but yeah.

And then you have, Schlitzie there and
she's like crawling around in the mud,

in her dress, with the knife, which I'm
like considering what all went into that

being filmed, I'm very uncomfortable
with whatever morality surrounds putting

that actor or, you know, or I should
say that person, in that situation

crawling under a wagon with a knife.

Anyway.

Jeremy: Yeah.

And, and as Brian was saying,
that seems sort of just ends.

I don't know if we're
missing stuff there or not.

It seems like probably, but they cut
back to the bookend from the beginning.

We're seeing this horrible thing
that's resulted from this and it's,

uh they've-, it seems unlikely-
they've turned Cleo into some

sort of a chicken, a woman beast?

Um...

Emily: Not sure how that works.

Ben: The Wikipedia article says she has
been tarred and permanently feathered, but

it really looks like she has just become
sort of some sort of human chicken hybrid.

Like they put a, her, a human
head on a human size chicken body.

Brian: Yeah.

Cause I was stupidly, I was analyzing.

I'm like, how did they shoot this?

All right.

They have her body underneath
this, like head or whatever?

And I was like, okay, this is weird.

And I actually rewound it back to watch.

He's like, all right, now,
look down there, everybody.

That's where she went.

Ben: It honestly feels like
noticeably fake in this movie.

Like even for, even if we're
just being prosthetics effects.

The fact that every sideshow
performer in the movie has been an

actual, real sideshow performer.

And there's been no, like there's
been no movie magic to achieve

any of the things they're doing.

They're just actually doing it for
there, then, at the very end, to

then be any degree of movie special
effects trickery at work- it just

reads very obviously as that after an
entire hour of very obviously being

no tricker, no film trickery at work.

Emily: Yeah, I dunno if it was my-

Ben: -that makes sense.

I suppose I'm complaining
about 1932 special effects.

Yeah, take that fucking practical
effects artists from the thirties.

Hope you feel bad about
this podcast 90 years later.

Brian: It's alarming, it's like
watching a movie and there's a

completely CG character in it.

All of a sudden in you're
like, what the heck?

Like, where did this come from?

It stands out really bad.

Ben: That's exactly it.

It's like if after an entire movie full
of Jim Henson level practical effects,

there was right at the very end.

Brian: Jar-Jar.

Ben: Yeah.

Like a Phantom Menace level.

CGI character.

Yeah.

Emily: it's, I guess it's my context
of watching Nightmare Alley and then

seeing this movie through the eyes of
the performers, I think what may have

happened is that they had beat her up
and she had somehow been mangled and

then they dressed her up in this outfit.

And that was the point is that
they dress her up to humiliate her.

So it wasn't it wasn't so much like a
weird supernatural fusion of man and beast

or whatever uh, or like permanent tarred
and feathered, like in the cartoons, but

I think that there is something to be
said about the fact that this is the only

person in the movie that we see on display
as part of the show, doing they're doing

an act or, being an act because we see the
sword swallower with his rack of swords.

But we don't see him
swallow until the wedding.

Yeah.

Jeremy: Yeah.

She's also the only one that
shows a revulsion towards the

other characters in the movie.

I mean, even Hercules is-
Hercules sucks, but he's not

like calling them dirty freaks.

He's just- ha- Hercules is really dumb.

And all of his like hate all
of his hate just seems like

a very TV, jock level hate.

Emily: Yeah.

Ben: He just wants to be
shoving nerds in lockers.

He doesn't know what nerds or
arguably lockers are, but he knows

it's what he is supposed to be doing.

I don't know, when were lockers invented?

I don't know.

Emily: I think lockers were around
because they were around in world war one.

Cause you had stuff in your locker then.

Jeremy: You had to shove
something in a Footlocker.

Emily: Yeah.

There were a variety of lockers.

Ben: Is it?

Hercules is a man born to give wedgies.

Jeremy: Yeah.

And we do have to talk
about this last scene.

Past the bookends where Hans has retired
to his palatial estate in Germany,

in disgrace, after his, uh, wedding,
uh, and refuses to see anyone, but

Phroso and Venus, uh, aren't gonna
take no for an answer and shove their

way in to get Frieda to see him.

Frieda is, you know, trying
to get him to forgive himself.

And he's saying basically that he
didn't want them to hurt Venus.

He just wanted to get the poison
and everybody else felt like

they had to enforce the code.

She's, she's comforting him
and that's sort of where we

end Phroso and Venus leave.

And so do we.

Ben: It feels like the tacked on
happy ending that is supposedly in the

original Nightmare Alley and is very
much not in the modern Nightmare Alley.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Yeah.

That seemed like a studio note to me.

Ben: Yeah.

It feels like we need to
make Hans like more likable.

Like we can have our actual
main characters sanction, this

like torturing of a woman.

So have this scene where it's like,
he didn't mean for it to get out of

control and he feels bad about it.

Emily: I think it's interesting
that he retires in disgrace from

the circus to a palatial estate.

Susan: Yeah.

Ben: Again, some real
Dick Grayson energy.

Emily: Yeah, but also like, that is
suggesting that when he was not in

disgrace, he was touring the circuit.

Ben: He did it for the
thrill of performing.

Emily: Yeah.

Well, he does-

Susan: That it was a choice.

Emily: Yeah.

It was, it was, it was his
choice and it was his passion.

Jeremy: He found his family.

Emily: Yeah.

Brian: Where did you guys watch the movie?

Emily: HBO?

Maximum

Ben: HBO.

Brian: Okay.

So we all watched it on HBO then.

So I guess the biggest thing
other than it it looks, it looks

like it's physically removed.

Like they shot it later.

The lighting is terrible.

It looked blurry.

It looked blown out.

It didn't love it.

The rest of the movie looked beautiful.

Then you have this tacked on, I
don't even know how long, what is

it like a man and a half maybe.

Yeah.

Ben: I want to know how long did
Phroso and Venus travel to just like

duck in for a forty second hi and bye.

Emily: They just wanted
the Frieda and Hans to-

Jeremy: They're a Frieda delivery system.

Emily: Yeah.

Yeah.

They wanted them to make amends.

Brian: And they like drop her off
and then she kind of like nudges

and like, come on, let's go.

Let's give them a minute, you know?

And then they're hugging and yeah.

Yeah.

What did she say?

Don't cry.

I love you.

Or something like that.

And then it's over, right?

Ben: Yeah.

Again, to the very end Frieda just be in,
like, I just care about your happiness.

Fucking like such a
selfless character, like-

Susan: Or, the sneakiest Golddigger ever.

Ben: Right?

Ah.

Now that would have been a fucking twist.

So she's like, I know how to
play the fucking long game.

Brian: Look where they left it.

They were in the house alone.

Emily: Yeah.

Brian: You never know.

Ben: New head-canon accepted.

Brian: You gotta wait for the sequel.

Emily: That's the thing too, is
that , when Frieda mentioned the

inheritance, I thought she was
trying to get Cleo to show her hand.

And I thought she was trying to prove
that Cleo didn't give a shit about

Hans, but for his money, because
that's what, that was her initial.

Yeah, like that was
her initial accusation.

She came in, she was like, you don't
care about him except for his money.

And then Cleo was like, oh no, I want
to be Queen of the Earth or whatever,

you know, how do you know that?

I'm just playing with him.

And Frieda's like, he did just
get an inheritance and immediately

fucking Cleo's just like foaming
at the mouth for the sweet dollars.

But then.

Ben: I love the way Frieda revealing the
inheritance that Cleo was almost played

like a Sherlock Holmes-ian, like it's aha.

The last piece has been you've
accidentally revealed the

last piece of the puzzle.

Emily: Yeah.

Yeah.

Ben: There's a whole scene where at
one point, even Hercules is like,

where's the circus performer getting
all this money for champagne and

platinum brace- like necklaces.

Emily: I thought it was
just 'cause he was German.

Brian: That's what I thought.

Ben: Cleo was just showing
terminal, like crazy, incuriosity.

She's like what a credit card debt.

I don't know.

Credit cards are a thing in the thirties.

I assume.

Jeremy: I'm thinking as
long as it lasts, who cares?

Emily: I mean it was The Great Depression.

I don't know if they were really
into credit cards at that point.

Ben: No.

Probably not.

Emily: One thing I do want to mention now
that we're and I'm going to bring it back.

Jeremy: Hold on, hold on
The Great Depression thing.

He's German.

It's not no issue with poverty or anything
in Germany at this time between the, say a

world war one and world war II is there?.

Emily: That's okay.

That's another thing I wanted to
mention it because in the prologue

message, they talk about the great,
quote unquote, "malforms", people of

history and how they've been vilified
or that they've been these monsters.

And they're like, like Goliath,
Kaliban, and Kaiser Wilhelm.

Susan: Yeah.

I thought that was really funny too.

Ben: What a fucking dig at
Kaiser Wilhelm and Goliath.

Emily: Okay.

Yeah.

Goliath is just a big guy?

Ben: That's like calling Shaq
like disabled for just being Shaq.

He's just big.

Jeremy: A monster of a man.

Ben: And presumably he could
beat David Spade in a fight.

I assume that's what the fight
is referring to Shaquille

O'Neal versus David Spade.

Emily: I want to see that
Disney or Warner Brothers seems

to be the basketball ones of-

Ben: Whoever runs MMA.

Just put fucking Shaq versus
David Spade in the octagon.

Emily: It has to be a
basketball related fight.

Brian: David Spade would totally do that.

Emily: Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then they like have to G like
they're supposed to fight, but then

they have to join together and like
against a common enemy, which is

like The Monstars or something.

Ben: And then it becomes slam ball,
the basketball spinoff from the

two thousands on spike TV that was
basketball played on the trampolines.

Emily: That's a deep cut that I even

Jeremy: You've been digging
into the Spike TV Catalogue....

Ben: Yeah, we're in this,
I'm cutting back to spike TV.

Welcome to that sweet,
sweet 2000s nostalgia.

Jeremy: While we're on that.

Let me ask you guys is Freaks feminist?

Emily: First I want to say No.

Second, I want to say
it has some awareness.

Ben: We definitely get between Venus,
Cleopatra, and Frieda, we definitely get a

wide variety of women roles in this movie.

Emily: Yeah.

Susan: Even with the Siamese twins
as well, and they're like, They're

sticking out their own agency together.

I think there, there was that, and
then there was a Frances O'Connor.

They did at least show women having
their own agency like Frieda even though

she's tatted along, she's sort of the
person in control in that relationship.

Like she's making her choices.

And Venus to, in a way is, you know, once
she sheds herself of Hercules, like she's

sick of, carrying his lazy butt around.

So she's the one who leaves him.

And, and I think she does push back
in that conversation with Phroso,

you know, so there is a little
bit of awareness around that.

Cleo certainly is not a portrayal
of a woman that I want to say,

oh, Hey, let's look at that.

That's a really good representation of,

Jeremy: Yeah.

A remorseless villain.

Susan: yeah,

Jeremy: yeah, It's interesting.

In fact, I find this movie hard to talk
about in a lot of ways, just because for

it, having come out in the thirties, it's
remarkably progressive in some ways in,

the fact that there's been movies that
have come out, I mean, within the last 20

years where like, they've cast able-bodied
actors as, disabled people and just been

like, oh no, that's the way we do it.

It's fine.

And you know, made a display out
of the disability without ever

consulting or working with people
who actually have those disabilities.

And this movie in the 1930s, not
just casts those people but makes a

point of humanizing them and showing
them in some ways in boring ways.

You know, that they're like, they're
just people, they just do stuff.

They just do normal things.

You know, and in a way that
sort of revolutionarily boring.

Emily: It's interesting because of the
we talked about the, like the voice

acting in these kinds of movies where
you have the mid Atlantic accent that

is meant to be very dramatic and also
a very specific kind of line delivery,

which is definitely not something
that fits in with slice of life,

Ben: This is always why
bloopers for movies from these

areas are a fucking trip.

Cause they'll be doing these like crazy
mid Atlantic accents and then they'll

make a blooper and then immediately start
talking like a real fucking human being.

Emily: Yeah.

So it's weird to see something
from the thirties that is.

Very slice of life and very,
almost like a documentary.

But there's so much production and
pantomime and all these very classical

acting and sensationalizing depictions of
these stories that seeing a movie that's

just about people living their lives is
really pretty revolutionary for the time.

Brian: What's interesting about
the movie and I did read a little

bit more into it is the resurgence
that it had in the early sixties.

How it becameto have kind of a
cult following and, it started

showing what, 30 years after it was
banned, like all over the world.

And you know, in some countries
where it didn't even air- Or air.

Oh my gosh.

And didn't even show original.

And I think that's really
interesting where people started

accepting it for what it was.

And I think he died shortly before
the resurgence too, the director.

And that's sad too, because,
what did he die in 60?

I think it's what 63, 64?

Started booming.

And then he passed away.

Unfortunately when people
started appreciating it.

Now, I think it's in the
National Film Registry.

I think it's a preserved film too.

I think you're right on all accounts,
but like, it does not stand the

test of time, but it's, it's
wonderful that it's being preserved.

I don't think this is one of my favorite
films, but I can definitely appreciate

it for what it is being when it was
made the slice of life that it is.

That almost documentary feel
it has, which you're right.

I didn't even think about that.

But yeah, I think, all the points that
we're making are super interesting too.

Emily: Thank you.

Susan: And how it has
resonated through other films.

Emily: Yeah th the, what I think I was
trying to get at earlier was the fact

that this movie isn't very sensitive in
the fact that it shows puts these people

on display much more like they would be
in a carnival where part of the point of

the carnival is to stare or, fetishize
or sensationalize, the weirdness, the

strangeness, the other of the people
performing or the people involved.

But the fact that is questioned at all, I
think is really important in this movie.

And it's, it's very far from
what we would consider today

something that is a objective view.

There's so much care-taken and the,
I keep going back to the whole thing

about shame and it's not telegraphed
as much as you might think it would be

because you would see, they talk about
the code of the freaks and, you know,

you hurt one of us, you hurt all of us.

But the kind of subtle interactions
that these characters have when somebody

feels ashamed, they are immediate,
that is immediately addressed by

another character and says, Hey, don't.

And, that is of the
response is comfort, right?

Where they're like, you
don't have to be scared.

Remember don't be scared.

You are people and we're
all God's children, or, it's

very something like that.

Yeah.

Jeremy: Yeah, I think it's interesting.

I, I think this movie is more progressive,
I think in that respect than almost any

of the other respects we might talk about.

It does deal a lot with disability.

But it doesn't do
anything really with race.

We only really have one person of color in
the cast and they're not a main character.

All of the characters in this
are sort of the same class.

They don't deal really with
a class struggle other than.

Uh, other than Hans, who's
apparently super rich and just

a circus for the love of it.

And then, yeah, we've talked about
there not being real, uh, much of a

show of LGBT themes in this other than
it is in some ways shares the queer

ideology of found family and togetherness
and being part of the community.

Emily: They do make a point of
having the assholes, be the one to

make to make the, uh, the gender
fluid character, the butt of a joke.

That, that violence is unnecessary,
of course, but the messaging of this

particular movie, especially how it
depicts women they are very celebratory.

They're walking around in their
chones and everything, you know,

like it's very, very casual.

And the women are also allowed
to be a little bit more risqué.

Because Venus when we first really
see her other than, putting the seal

away, she has her clothes off of her
shoulders and she's being very fiery

and she's very much protagonist.

We're very much supposed
to sympathize with her.

But she's also not super dressed up.

The amount of shoulder in this movie
is scandalous, to be honest, if

this is going to be, of the time.

Susan: Pre-code!

That was the standard of the day
and including how they showed

women in stronger positions
and owning their own sexuality.

They actually were showing that
these women were sexual people-

that Cleo was a sexual person.

That Venus was a sexual person was,
something that then would stop happening

Emily: also the-

Susan: once the code was in the shooting.,

Emily: yeah.

And also the depiction of the conjoined
twins and having one of them enjoying the

kiss that the other one was experiencing.

That's pretty like for the time.

That's.

Whew.

Ben: I love that moment.

Emily: That's a great moment, too.

But anyway, going back to Josephine
Joseph, you know, there is this feminine,

like the sacred, feminine going on with
the ladies of this movie, unless they

go out of bounds like Cleo and Cleo has
to go way out of bounds in order for

us to be like, yeah, kill that bitch.

So this is a really, really, long-winded
say way of saying that this movie made

the transphobic violence as dishonorable
and deplorable as it should be depicted

as if it is to be depicted, in film.

Brian: Do you think for the time,
do you think this is doing it

as much justice as they could?

I guess, I don't know if that's,

Emily: I think that's, I think
that's what I'm trying to get at.

Yeah.

Jeremy: And if they're going to do
it at all, which they don't have to,

but maybe they've made that choice.

Hercules is a guy of such sterling
character that you really can't question

the fact that yeah, this is bad.

It's a bad guy and a bad thing.

Susan: Yeah.

It's interesting.

We talk about the code, but the code
among the group, they don't, they

take revenge when Hans is humiliated
and hurt, but they don't take

revenge when Joseph Josephine is.

Emily: That's true.

Susan: They don't really
have their back on that.

Emily: Yeah.

Which-

Ben: You're right.

That's a great point.

Emily: Yeah.

And I was thinking about that too,
because there's also the idea that

like he did punch the quote-unquote
Joseph side this is a whole bag of

bananas that I'm not sure if I want to
sort through at this point with this

movie, because I don't think the movie
knows what it's doing at this point.

Jeremy: Yeah.

I think the best question to ask
at this point is guys, we think we

recommend people check this movie out?

Do we think it's worth seeing?

Emily: Yeah.

I mean, mind the warnings.

Ben: Yeah.

Like definitely take into account what
it is, but I'd say, I mean, you know,

if you're a real like film fan and while
I appreciate just like the history of

the medium, this is a really unique
view into American culture in the 1930s

and specifically into pre code talkies.

Susan: And I do think that if you're a
horror fan, seeing some of those images,

like just recently a Nightmare Alley would
be something you'd appreciate that source.

Brian: You guys have made a lot of
great points, I think, and I know

I mentioned this earlier, I think
it's a beautifully shot film too.

For the most, other than the last tacked
on part, which Jeremy said, I think

the studio probably forced them to do,
but other than that, it's, gorgeous.

It's a beautiful black and white film.

Jeremy: Yeah, it definitely
it's a aesthetic.

And I think you can see.

A lot of what we'll be like,
especially Guillermo Totonno's

aesthetic can in the future.

Like you can see the influence that
this movie creates that leads to stuff

like Nightmare Alley, and you know, a
lot of other stuff in there as well.

And keeping that in mind do we
have any recommendations for uh,

stuff people should check out if
they enjoyed this or they want

something else along these lines?

Susan, did you have anything?

Susan: You know, I was
starting to think about it.

This is totally made me want to go on
like a Todd Browning hunt and go check out

some of the other films that that he did.

I'm a film noir buff, so I love all
things old movie, but this is not a

genre that I've really delved into.

So that's something I definitely
want to go do is check out

more Todd Browning movies.

Jeremy: And he directed quite a few.

He's got 62 credits.

Ben: He did, uh, the
original Dracula, didn't he?

Susan: Yeah, he did a lot
of the Lon Chaney stuff.

Jeremy: Yeah.

.
Ben: I would recommend The Greatest
Showman starring Hugh Jackman because

all circus movies are the same, right?

Brian: I watched, uh,
the live action Dumbo.

I think I made it 10 minutes
into that before I turned it off.

Ooh, I rarely- I love
Mystery Science theater.

I love bad movies and I rarely turn
movies off and I turned that off.

Yeah.

Jeremy: That was just when I saw the
trailer, I was like, nah, I'm all right.

Brian: Danny DeVito's in
it, so I gave it a minute.

And then I gave it 10 minutes.

And then I turned it off.

Emily: I forgot about Danny DeVito.

Brian: And my son even.

He even got bored after 10 minutes.

Ben: So how dare you?

Don't you ever forget Danny DeVito!

Emily: That's the power of the movie.

Apparently the mediocrity of
this film is that it is managed

to overshadow Danny DeVito.

Ben: Colin Farrell, Robin Lord
Taylor, into the Penguinverse.

Let's go.

Jeremy: Well, Brian, that's
a, that's an anti-rec.

Do you have something you do
recommend people check out?

Don't watch live-action Dumbo, but...

Brian: I'm kind of with Susan, I
don't really I don't really watch

films like this, so it was really
fun for me to, I'm not against it.

I just don't usually
watch, films like Freak.

I'm more of a nineties.

Eighties movie kind of guy.

I don't know all the episodes that
you guys have done, but I would

say Mo- I like Monster Squad.

I'd watch that.

I'll just leave that there

Jeremy: I tried to watch Monster
Squad with my kids while back.

I really loved Monster Squad growing up.

It's a little strong on the, uh, a
lot of F slurs real early in there.

Brian: It hasn't aged well, like my
memory of it is very different from

when I had showed my nine-year-old son,
the movie and I was cringing halfway.

Like we made it through it, but yeah.

I was like, oh, this
isn't how I remember it.

Jeremy: The first scene of that movie
has lots of like anti-gay slurs and

some other stuff in there that I was
just like, oh no, I made a mistake.

Brian: Yeah.

It's like, when you have music on
and you got your kids in the car and

you cough or make a loud noise over
some word or something like that.

I just stopped the movie and I had to talk
to him about what they were talking about.

So.

Susan: Suddenly, Dad has tuberculosis.

He's just coughing the entire time.

There you go.

Susan: I'd say modern, modern stuff.

I really liked Archive 81.

I thought that was very good.

Jeremy: I listened to the podcast of
it when it was originally a podcast.

Susan: Yeah, me too.

And then I watched it recently.

I thought it was really good.

It was I'd be interested to hear
when you guys all watch it and talk

about it to hear what your take is.

Emily: Okay.

For recommendations for me if you are
interested in weird outdated attempts at

feminism, or some of almost progressive
who isn't motions in that direction

there's this really fascinating film,
called Häxan and it's about witches

and witchcraft through the ages.

And then it starts out as sort of a
very badly researched depiction of

witches in quote unquote history, which,
read folklore according to two people

maybe, but then it starts talking about
Villa- vilifying women with hysteria.

And also vilifying older women
who have been through a lot and

have a disfigurement and like
attributing the xenophobia to the

fear of witches and witchcraft.

Which, at the time I was like, okay
guys, I see what you're I see what

you're trying to do, but it's also
fantastic, like crazy buck, wild romp

into a lot of amazing- it's silent.

It there's a lot of depictions
of Hieronymus Bosch-esque

hellscapes in film with a lot of
cardboard and outfits and stuff.

Which is fantastic.

It's worth the journey.

For sure.

So that's, Häxan Which means, witch,

Jeremy: Yeah.

My recommendation is if you like pretty
movies that claim to be horror movies,

and aren't quite- you know, they're
just beautiful black and white movies.

This one is from 1960,
so it's not quite as old.

But it's, the French is,
Les yeux sans visage.

It's Eyes Without a Face.

It is, um, somewhat beloved
old horror movie in French.

It is beautifully made.

It has a nice suspenseful feeling to it,
although it's not particularly scary.

They do the mask that the, a woman
who has eyes without a face, wears

in it is somewhat unsettling.

It's a really interesting movie.

The only problem I ever had
with it is the evil nurse.

And it has a like a theme when
she's hunting people, a theme

music which is supposed to
sound creepy and scary, I think.

But actually it just sounds like
the theme from Curb Your Enthusiasm.

It was really distracting to me as I was
watching this and it was supposed to be

like, oh no, now she's going to pluck
another unsuspecting young woman off

the streets to do horrible things to.

But it just sounded like Larry
David was having trouble with

his pleated pants or something.

Emily: Well, it's cool that they
got a Billy Idol to do the song.

Jeremy: Right.

Emily: For the movie.

Jeremy: But yeah, definitely worth
checking out: Eyes Without a Face.

Uh,, now Brian, Susan, before you guys
go, we wanted to let people know where

they can find you and your work online.

Can you let us know where they can
find you and a little bit about Nix

as well, since that is coming up soon?

Brian: And take it away.

Susan, you can talk about the book and
I'll talk about all the other fun stuff.

Susan: Okay, great.

so Nix is kind of an all ages, adventure
about, it's kind of a fantasy setting

where a young girl who is no longer
among the living, but she's not

quite dead either uh, is a spirit.

And she basically is trying to stop
her villainous father from starting

a feud that will end all things.

So she's trying to train a young prince
into figuring out how to use his powers.

Brian's art on it is amazing.

It's kind of a fun thing.

Both of their fathers are, the problem.

And it's really cool to see these two kids
coming together to try and figure out a

solution to the problem of their fathers.

Trying to stop this feud and
figuring out who they are as well.

Brian: And you can, uh, find
out anything you want about Nix.

You can go on Instagram,
@HessToons Twitter and Facebook.

And yeah, we have links to
download it links to buy.

It links to order it,
all that kind of stuff.

It'll be there.

Jeremy: Fantastic.

Well, thank you guys so much.

As for the rest of us, you can
find Emily @MegaMoth on Twitter and

@mega_moth on instagram and megamoth.net.

Ben is on Twitter @BentheKahn and their
website at benkahncomics.com, where you

can pick up all of their books, including
the brand new Immortals: Fenyx Rising

graphic novel from Great Beginnings
and the GLAAD award nominated Renegade

Rule graphic novels from Dark Horse.

And finally for me, you can find me
on Twitter and Instagram @jrome58 and

my website jeremywhitley.com, where
you can check out everything I write.

And of course the podcast is on
Patreon @ Progressively Horrified.

Our website at
progressivelyhorrified.transistor.fm,

and on Twitter @ProgHorroPod
where we'd love to hear from you.

Please come let us know what you think
comment on the episode, make sure you

rate and review this wherever you listen.

And we would always
love to get five stars.

It helps us find new
listeners there and as well.

And thanks again so much for
Brian and Susan for joining us.

Thanks for coming out, guys.

Brian: Thank you so much.

Ben: Thank you so much for coming on.

It was a blast getting to talk
about this movie with you.

Emily: It's great to see you all again.

I'm really looking forward to
Nix and thank you for bringing

this movie to our show.

Because-

Ben: Nix looks wonderful, very excited.

Emily: Thank you.

Jeremy: This may be the oldest
movie that we've reviewed so far.

And probably the oldest we're
likely to review for some time.

Emily: Yeah.

Ben: Meh, we'll get to No- we'll get
to Nosferatu soon or one of these days.

Jeremy: We'll get there.

But as always thanks to Ben and
Emily for joining me and thanks

to all of you for listening and
until next time stay horrified.

Alicia: Progressively horrified
is created by Jeremy Whitley

and produced and edited by me.

Alicia Whitley.

This episode features Jeremy
Ben, Emily, and special guest,

Susan Beneville and Brian Hess.

All opinions expressed by the commentators
are solely their own and do not represent

the intent or opinion of the filmmakers.

Nor do they represent the
employees, institutions, or

publishers of the commentators?

Our theme music is epic darkness
by Mario co oh six and was provided

royalty free from Pixa bay.

Thanks for listening.

Jeremy: And until next
time stay horrified.