Emily: Are we the baddies?

Alicia: Are we the bad?

Emily: Yeah.

I was watching It and I'm
like, A y y y y y y et cetera.

The only way that they could
redeem this is if the Vatican

Church was evil all along.

Like, if it was the, full Middle
Alchemist situation like that

Ben: Emily.

I got good news for ya.

Emily: yeah,

Ben: History!

Jeremy: Good evening and welcome to
Progressively Horrified the podcast

where we hold who to progressive
standards that never agreed to.

Tonight we're talking about the Paramount
Plus series that finally figured out

how to bring millennials to the Catholic
Church, make it X-files it's evil.

I am your host Jeremy Whitley.

And with me tonight I have a panel
of cinephiles and Cina bites.

First, they're here to challenge the
sexy werewolf, sexy, vampire binary.

My co-host Ben Kahn.

Ben, how are you tonight?

Ben: When I said I wanted a procedural
without propaganda, I didn't mean Duke

Catholic Church propaganda instead.

Jeremy: You gotta be more specific.

That Monkey's Paw is
just counting down there.

Ben: Oh, I that, that
was a real monkey's call.

What a deeply problematic show.

That is so completely my shit.

Emily: Oh my God, you're

Jeremy: and the Cinnamon Roll of
Cino Bites, our co-host, Emily

Martin, how are you tonight, Emily?

Emily: I'm sorry.

I don't, I'm still trying to
figure out how it, Ben is right.

King Bradley King is his first name.

Ben: Y'all missed me blowing Emily's mind
with some full mental alchemist facts.

Emily: But good news is
uh, full Metal Alchemist is

relevant to this conversation.

Ben: Full Metal Alchemist Is
relevant to every conversation.

It's one of the greatest
stories ever told.

Emily: Um, tale as old as time.

Jeremy: Stay tuned to find out
whether it will be Devil Man

or Neon Genesis, Evan Gallion.

We reference next.

But our guest tonight, our
Queen of TV screams, editor

and educator, Alicia Whitley.

Alicia, how are you?

Alicia: I'm delighted with Queen of TV
screams because I do enjoy television.

Ben: I love that.

Alicia: Yeah.

I'll, I will wear that crown.

Ben: Need to get commissioned some, like
us as like B movie monsters and like our

various, you know, cna, like Cinnamon
Roll of Cino Bites, like plastered

and like that horror movie poster.

Fa, y'all know what I'm talking about.

Emily: hell yeah.

Ben: You know what?

I think I know what to
get y'all for Christmas!

Emily: Oh yay!

Jeremy: we we only talked about the
first three episodes of the series.

It does have three seasons at this point.

It is quite a bit to get through
their hour long episodes.

The show is called Evil.

It sounds like a strange thing to say.

Most of the things we are watch
are in some respect, evil.

This one is called Evil.

If you haven't seen it on your tv, it's
because it's on fake tv on Paramount Plus.

Ben: There are some shows out
there that I absolutely love, but

man, do they got some garbage.

SEO.

Warrior is one of the best
shows of the modern era.

You can't just Google Warrior
and then be like, oh yeah, here's

fucking Andrew Koji kicking ass.

You got good taste.

Jeremy: So, uh, let's talk a
little bit about the show itself.

It is created by Michelle King and Robert
King, who are also the creators of The

Good Wife and The Good Fight, which is
also a Paramount Plus thing that is sort

of a sequel series, spinoff series from
The Good Wife it is written largely by

the two of them . In the second episode.

We also have Nial La
Buf writing with them.

And the third one is also co-written
by Rni Esso Bannon, who you may

know as the creator of Alienation
and Farscape among other things.

He's a real nerds nerd, that guy.

Uh, You may know who Gene
Roddenberry is, but very few

people know who Rni Esso Bannon is.

So our, our lead is uh, Katya
Herbers who plays Kristen.

Uh, She is a psychologist slash doctor
in like the comic book sense and

that she is a doctor of everything.

Emily: She's a fakey fake scientist.

She's fake.

She's a fake scientist.

Jeremy: Because she has doctor
at the beginning of her name, she

knows a little bit about everything.

Ben: She is introduced giving the
fucking Replicant test from Blade Runner.

Emily: Yeah, she's got a PhD in something

Jeremy: yeah.

Ben: Got a PhD in doctoring.

Jeremy: the, two other members of our
like primary investigative cast are

uh, David Acosta, who's played by Mike
Coulter, who you may know as Luke Cage who

is a, a man studying to become a priest
who used to be a lot of other things.

And uh, we also of uh, the Daily Show
and other stuff, Aasif Mandvi playing

Ben Shaki, who is a uh, sort of the
tech guy, the man in the chair guy.

Also sort of our resident atheist
who also interestingly has like a

very devout Muslim family that like,
sort of pops in and out of the show.

Ben: And when Jeremy says Daily
show and other stuff, we do mean the

live action Last Air Penter movie.

Jeremy: I, I I can't, I don't
blame him for that, you know,

Ben: Oh God, no, but he was in it.

Jeremy: If somebody was like,
do you wanna be in a live

Ben: Admiral Shall himself.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Of the

Ben: I love

Jeremy: would, it would
be hard to turn down.

Ben: three are great leads.

Like it's a delightful trio.

Jeremy: The real wild card of this show
is Michael Emerson, who you may know as

the creepy guy from lost, or the creepy
guy from that other show with Jesus who

is playing Leland Townsend, who is sort
of the I don't know, avatar of evil.

He just sort of hangs around and
does evil shit for the hell of it.

Alicia: Well, he Works for evil.

He's an employee of evil.

Jeremy: yeah, I

Ben: on the evil health plan.

Alicia: Exactly,

Jeremy: yeah, he's more of a,
he's sort of like a freelancer for

evil, you know.

Ben: I'm sure we will get into way
more of Leland in our, how does this

show deal with mental health chapter

Jeremy: yeah.

We also have Kristen's daughters,
there are five of them.

Ben: So many daughters.

Jeremy: they are all sort of one
character that talks in a lot of voices.

sorry, there's four of them.

Ben: What an insane choice for the
producers to be like, yes, I need Four

sets of child actresses in every episode.

That's a wild amount of child actors
to willingly put in your program.

Alicia: They're easily my
favorite part of the show.

Jeremy: We also have uh, her mom who
was played by Christine Lotte, who uh,

you may know as a core cast member of
Chicago Hope for like a hundred years.

Ben: Come for the demonic mystery.

Stay for the sexy grandmas.

Emily: Oh my God.

The guf if

Ben: She's a gmilf.

She is a straight up gmilf.

Emily: Yeah.

Like she is so

Jeremy: that that does not
get tuned down as the rest of

the,

series goes on.

I will say,

Alicia: So one of the things that
I kind of enjoy about the Kings

is their use of these um, actors.

So Mike Coulter was also in the Good
Wife and the Good Fight playing a

drug dealer with a heart of gold.

Wallace Sean is gonna be in some
episodes later on and is also in both

the Good Wife and the Good Fight,
playing a kind of an evil minion.

And the actress who plays Cheryl,
whose name I'm blanking on right

now.

Jeremy: Lati.

Alicia: Yes, thank you.

Is also in the Good Wife and I think comes
back in the good fight as like a hard ass

lawyer type who's just as sexy in that
show or those shows as she is in this one.

Jeremy: Yeah, I will say you were saying
good things about the kings that are

sort of relevant with Christine Lati
is, and this is true very much in the

other shows, even more so perhaps, is
that they uh, don't shy away from like

women who like sex care about sex and
often older women who are sexually

active and have like personalities
that are complex and motivations

that you can't always guess at.

you know, they, they use older
women, older actresses really well.

We do also have a sort of recurring
uh, very much in these first three

episodes, Kurt Fuller, who plays Dr.

Kurt Boggs, who is the,
the psychiatrist to Katya.

That actor has been in
just a ton of stuff.

Like you've, you've
seen him in everything.

Ben: Kurt Fuller's, like I M D
B list is as long as your arm.

Jeremy: yeah.

Even if you have very long arms.

Ben: I mean, we're talking literally like
four decade long career at this point.

Jeremy: yeah.

And, and so the basic, well, what we're
talking about is the first three episodes,

episode one, which is called Genesis one.

It is about sort of the bringing together
of this team who, you know, we have

our psychologist, our priest, and our
tech guy who all work for the Catholic

Church by the end of this episode, whose
job it is to go around and investigate

various miracles of the good and bad
sort, both possessions and positive

miracles, various things that can't be
explained in the same way that that was

Mulder and Sculley's job and the X-Files.

But their job is like, they report to
the Catholic church and they, they try

to sort of like prove that these things
are aren't true by investigating them.

The first episode we're introduced to
the concept and we meet a sort of serial

killer who may or may not be possessed.

And we also uh, get introduced to Michael
Emerson's character who is the, the batty

who will be recurring throughout this.

I just wrote Ben Linus
is back baby on this

Ben: Hell yeah.

And this time he's got no subtlety at all.

Never knew what angle Ben was playing.

Fucking Leland's only got one
angle and he is gonna fucking

tell it to you right away.

Alicia: Yeah, I, keep calling him Evil.

Ben is Aasif Mandvi, or, and then there's
Lost Ben, because I can't ever remember

Ben: well lost.

Ben is evil Ben and Evil Ben is good Ben.

So it's very easy to keep track of.

That's the thing.

Having seen three episodes can I
expect that every episode is a slight

variation of they are presented with
a new sign of the Divine, which they

then investigate and through twists
and turns determine that they find

the logical, non divine explanation.

But throughout this investigation,
they always stumble upon something that

they can't explain by the end of it.

Emily: Which is the XFiles, right?

Jeremy: Yeah.

This is the X-Files, but
with Angels and demons.

Ben: Yeah.

This was like uh, we figured
out it was racism, but we

never did solve those photos.

Alicia: So what are you calling
this, you calling this the Kai files?

Emily: The cross files.

Jeremy: yeah, The first one sort of
resolves with, oh, he's not crazy,

but Leland has been feeding him
these things to say about our main

characters that can make them think
that he's got, you know, divine

information he shouldn't have otherwise.

And sort of these ways to act and react
to seeming to be crazy He's doing it

to try and get off for these murders.

Leland is just trying to do it to get off.

Alicia: Could I, I just wanna
say he's not trying to act crazy.

He is trying-.

Jeremy: To act specifically not crazy.

He's trying to act possessed

Alicia: We go.

Ben: he is a very sane mass murderer.

Thank you very much.

Jeremy: he's not in
control of his faculties.

Yeah.

The second episode is called 177 Minutes.

It is about uh, a girl who is
in the morgue when she suddenly

comes back to life after having
been dead for 177 minutes.

There's also an image they find on the
video footage that there's an image of

a woman who died only a short wire while
earlier on the film looking quite angelic.

Uh, It turns out the real villain
is racism 'cause they didn't try to

resuscitate her long enough and she had
C O P D and a variety of other things.

It gets very housey at the end.

That one's not my favorite episode.

And then uh, the third
episode is three stars.

Which is about a theater producer
who might be possessed, is acting

strange, doing lots of weird stuff,
and also it seems sweating blood.

Oh.

And it turns out his digital
assistant is possessed.

Actually, it's hacked.

Actually.

Maybe there is some sort of horrible
demon involved because when Aasif Mandvi

takes it home, it possesses their digital
assistant and knows things about his

sister that nobody should possibly know
and that we're not actually clear on

what they are by the end of the episode.

And then he throws it in the
trash compactor and runs off.

Ben: It's a season long mystery.

Also, that episode features just a
wonderful guest appearance by John Glover.

Alicia: Also, it turns out that part of
the sign of his possession was that he was

bleeding blood or he was sweating blood.

Jeremy: Nobody makes
me bleed my own blood.

Ben: People do tend to bleed blood.

That's usually not a sign of the divine

Alicia: I mean he was sweating blood
and that actually just turned out

to be what, like infected hair-.

Ben: Infected hair plugs.

Yeah.

Alicia: Yeah.

Emily: Yeah, God.

Ben: and that's why I say like there's
elements of the show that as a procedural,

like I like it like three episodes
in, I like what the reveals have been.

I like that it was like, oh she
wasn't fucking resurrection.

Y'all are just racist.

And didn't give her c p R long enough.

So it seemed like she
was dead for a long time.

I like that.

Like that's the kind of like, I
like the deductions and again, I

like that he's comparing fucking
like footage of the surgeries and

noting the different timestamps.

Like this is very much scratching.

This like gothic detective
mystery procedural that has very

much been missing in my life
since Prodigal son got canceled.

Alicia: I do love a procedural.

I do love a a a who done it as well.

I think you talked about like not
wanting propaganda in your procedurals.

I remember when Gotham came out
and I was so excited 'cause I

thought I was gonna get law and
order with like super villains.

Like I wanted a villain of the
weak, like to solve the case.

And it wasn't that.

And this feels a lot more like law
and order with the Catholic church.

Like, well, I'm gonna get a, a bad guy of
the week and you're gonna solve it and you

know, there will be some questions, but-.

Ben: A big problem I have with this
show, and maybe it is fixed by just

them being like, oh, we've got like
a friendly rabbi who helps us out

from time to time with some stuff.

Like,

because, like what I can buy and
why I think this show kind of sets

me on edge in a way that other
Christian mythology shows don't.

Is that at least the three
episodes we watched, it's not, oh,

the Power of Faith, just human.

Faith is what fights the devil.

It's like the Catholic church
is what fights the devil.

Like not only that Christianity
is correct, but this one specific

branch of Christianity is correct.

Emily: Yeah.

So, well, and here's the
other thing about that

Ben: Mike Coulter, you could be a
priest and still get your fuck on.

You don't gotta do this.

Jeremy: in the Catholic church.

Ben: No, but the,

Emily: that's, that's,

Ben: it only works in a

Jeremy: in, if he was in
Britain, this would all be fine.

You know?

Emily: If he was a vicar-.

Ben: That's where I kept
following, what was that?

It's like, oh, just us Catholics are the
line between good and evil, so don't you

worry about that other shit we're doing.

It's worth it to be the wall
between us, you and the devil.

Get some imams and rabbis in there.

Just make it like the power of human
faith is what's fighting the devil.

And I'm on board.

Jeremy: you just want it to be a three
guys walk into a bar joke, is what

Ben: Yes.

Yes.

Alicia: What were you gonna say?

Emily: The, writing in the show is good.

I only watched the first two episodes,
but I did appre appreciate the writing in

the show and the sort of, the way that it
rides the line a little bit where it's,

it is suggesting very heavily that the
Catholic church is the wall Now, the fact

that there are Muslims you know, I feel
like there is room for the show to be a

little bit more inclusive in that way.

Now Alicia, I know you've seen
the whole show and that you have,

I have had some suspicions about,
some redeeming elements to the plot.

Alicia: Yeah, like how
many spoilers do you want?

Ben: You can spoil if
there's a friendly rabbi who

Alicia: is a friendly rabbi.

Ben: Yeah.

Friendly

Alicia: He's not, he's not
in nearly enough episodes.

Like I, I would love to see more
of the friendly Rabbi come back

and other faith traditions, other
paranormal activity from other faith

traditions are represented in the show.

So there are gen that show up.

Ben: That goes a long

Alicia: yeah, yeah, there are other
like ghosts and goblins and, and

ghouls from other faiths that also
show up, which comes up later as like

when they're asking the question.

Okay.

So Jeremy, you didn't mean mention
George but Kristen keeps getting

visited by this demon named George, and
her psychiatrist Kurt suggests that,

well, maybe it's something that you
saw, like this is something that your

subconscious is doing and it's a dream.

And you know, her daughter
has the same experience.

She describes George exactly the same
way, and he's like, maybe you saw

a video and then later it turns out
to be maybe, perhaps they shared,

like seeing this one scary thing and
now they're both dreaming about it.

But there, it's not that the Catholic
church is the wall between good and evil.

It's more like they're the ones who
most people come to for exorcism stuff,

and that's who we're working with.

But they also go and visit like
other people who are dealing

with other evil things as well.

Emily: Yeah, because we're, we're
looking at, and this is something that

really I felt like was set up as a
baseline, is that we are starting with

a Catholic paradigm with the characters.

It's difficult because in a lot of cases,
Shows will represent this as sort of red.

People are visited by a demon and
they're, you know, they have a particular

way that they act towards a demon.

And then we just assume that
that's how you act towards demons.

The same way that we assume that people
in horror movies have a particular way

they act, or somebody like gets out
of the, the routine, say like, instead

of running upstairs, they turn around
and kick the killer in the balls.

Or at least try to, you know, we have a

different

Ben: how you get the.

For Scream movie.

Emily: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And

Ben: I know we're not talking about
Scream, but I miss when people

would just like push ghost face
over and he'd like fall over a lamp.

Ghost face is too badass nowadays.

Emily: Yeah.

But, I'm thinking about how these
situations play out and it is all

very within a paradigm of people
who see the world in this way.

Alicia: And there's some suggestion
that because they are given to see

the world in that way, that is why
they are having that experience.

Emily: Yeah.

So that's where, that's where it kinda
gave the, very like Vatican based story,

a little bit of leeway where I'm like,
okay, so these are people coming in

that have this idea of Catholicism.

The fact that Kristen, so
Kristen was a former Catholic.

We find out that out from
George her demon visitor.

Ben: George is like, I got, I
don't know how I feel about George,

'cause I'm like, George is too
cockney to be scary, but too sexual.

Salty to be whimsical.

Emily: Yeah.

And that's, there's some areas
there that I, I I'd like to go

into that, but, um, the demons have
power over someone who believes in

them because they believe in them.

Just like the faith situation
that you, discussed now

Ben: George, very nasty.

Emily: But yeah, so Kristen is
a former Catholic as, and that's

revealed by George, right?

but it is kind of telegraphed the
fact that all four of her children

have Catholic schoolgirl outfits.

And there's definitely a subtext and
I think that it's kind of smart how.

The subtext is expressed.

But Her PhD, her doctor quality,
a lot of that kind of fakey fake.

Like it's not good science.

Ben: That sounded like someone
who likes mechanical magazines.

Emily: yeah.

Well this 20 questions thing to determine
like how well you can trust somebody.

Like I have a lot to unpack there.

Jeremy: mean, they, they do just
enough of it to where you can be

like, well, I don't really know what
it, what the other questions are.

So I can't say whether it's,
you know, good or bad or what

they're, what they're doing.

There's a lot of that in the show.

I feel like it's very hand wavy.

It's like, and you know, stuff.

Ben: If I could have one real request
for this show, I want this show to

go on long enough that they start
getting into like late supernatural

levels of like crazy nonsense bullshit.

Like, I wanna get this show
to get to like season eight.

And they're like, uhoh, watch out here.

Kristen.

Like your daughters are now the
four horse women of the apocalypse.

Emily: Where does Luke Cage's
gay angel boyfriend show up

that he has to inevitably kill?

Really?

Alicia: so that's not, there's
no gay angel boyfriend.

Ben: I assume that's, I assume
that's the A nun who's either a

love interest or a motherly figure.

Emily: I just saw Alicia's face and, and

Alicia: Y'all.

like

I don't wanna, I don't wanna give away, I
don't wanna give away too many spoilers.

So I'll say that is it Andrea Martin?

Is that the ex,

Jeremy: Andrea Martin is not in this
first season and from what I've watched

with you is my favorite part of the show.

She is the sort of

Alicia: And she kind of, George disappears
and she shows up and it's almost like,

yes, that's the character that we need.

She's like a weird nun who wears
big, thick glasses and makes all of

the patriarchy uncomfortable with
just her assuredness and her like,

yes, I ab I absolutely talk to God.

And like, she looks at Luke Cage
and she's like, Priest, Luke

Cage, you're doing bad stuff.

And I know 'cause she can see demons
and and there's this one episode

where she's put on trial because
Lost Ben Leland comes to work for the

church and she won't work with him.

And she keeps intentionally
trying to hurt him.

cause he's evil

and he tries to get her, he tries
to say that she's insane because she

speaks to, she can see demons and stuff.

And she's like, well, if we're
Catholic, aren't we supposed to believe

that these things are actually real?

So why should I be insane?

Because I'm telling you, like, I
can see them in corporeal form.

And like, so that's a huge issue about
whether or not David, David defends her.

But it's a huge issue about
whether or not he believes her.

But to go back to your point earlier
about how what people believe in

or don't believe in influences the
way that they experience the world

and what this says about the show.

Like the show kind of spins a lot
of the first season being kind of

ambiguous or ambivalent about whether
or not the supernatural exists,

Ben: The supernatural clearly fucking

Alicia: right?

And then by season three, it's like,
Cheryl is actually working for the

same evil company that Leland is
working for, and they are doing

evil things and there are like
actual demons that people can see.

Like her company is responsible
for making sure people doom scroll,

like those types of evil things.

Uh, They're, she's responsible for
making sure that Bitcoin gets bought and

sold and like Cheryl becomes like the
person pulling social media levers to

make the world a little bit more evil.

Emily: And here's the thing though,
is that the second that they were

like, social media allows the
demons to connect to each other

to make sure that people do bad.

And I'm like, now that they've,
that Vatican is like, fuck Twitter.

I'm like, Twitter is so bad.

It's like

Ben: No Twitter still No.

Twitter's still bad.

Let's not let Twitter off.

Let's not let Twitter off.

the hook.

Emily: I'm not.

Alicia: yeah.

Leland finds, people to do evil things
by going on message boards and looking

for unhappy people to kind of prey upon.

But there is one episode where David sees
an angel and the angel is black in his

vision, and four other people say that.

And like, The church won't believe
them that this is an angel vision

that they've seen because they all
describe her as having dark skin.

So that's like a huge, issue of
they deal with issues of racism

with the church, you know,

Ben: Coulter fucking discovered
racism in the Catholic church.

Someone called the 12 hundreds.

Emily: Fucking spotlight over here.

Alicia: But you know, I had a pastor
growing up, my pastor used to say

that like, People spend a lot of
time blaming the devil for all of

the stuff that humanity just does.

We like to say, oh, evil made me do
this, or the devil made me do that when

it's really just us being terrible.

And that kind of question is something
that the show plays with, because it's

a procedural plays with over and over.

Ben: That question can't be played as well
as Lucifer did, where a lot of Lucifer's

characters motivated by fuck you.

Stop blaming me for all
the terrible stuff you do.

Alicia: I would like Lucifer.

I would like Lucifer more, except like,

Ben: I love Lucifer.

Lucifer is

Alicia: it's just kind of a crappy show.

Like I watched

Ben: a religion based show.

Alicia: I watched all of Lucifer
and there was just no like main

girl had like, I don't even remember

Claire??

Ben: Had nothing.

Main girl had nothing.

She's the

Alicia: Nothing.

She's a total Bella Swan.

Ben: She wishes she was
fucking Beckett on Castle.

Emily: I didn't watch any,
any of the Lucifer show.

I've read the comics.

Ben: Not similar.

Alicia: not similar at

Emily: that's what, what was my ma my main

Alicia: Yeah.

I was like, I was like, this is Zaine.

I mean this is the same
Zaine, this is Maze.

Okay.

Ben: no, Lucifer, the TV show feels like
a comedy sketch of adapting the comic,

but it is still a really fun mythology,
mystery, procedural in its own right, like

Alicia: if I could take, the writing
of this show, the shots of this show,

like they love playing with symmetry.

Like this is one of the most beautiful
TV shows that I have enjoyed looking at.

I love the way they do the angles.

If I could take some of the, like
writing and acting and like add

in the world building of Lucifer,

Ben: Yeah.

Lucifer as a show, definitely tried to
sometimes paper over its weaker writing

by just cutting to a scene of Tom Ellis
s singing a cover song on a piano.

And you know what?

It fucking works every time

Alicia: oh, malice
saying something cheeky.

Ben: Yeah.

Tom Ellis would just pop his
shirt off, say something cheeky.

I'd be like, oh, I don't even know what
the fuck I was complaining about this.

Alicia: if we're gonna compare
Lucifer to this show, I do wanna

compare the depiction of characters
with children because, I love,

and I know not a lot of people do.

I love the way the daughters
are written in this show.

Like they always are all
talking all over each other.

They're always vying for Kristen's
attention in one way or another.

They're always bickering with each
other or fighting with each other,

but they are a very important
part of who she is as a character.

And I hate when shows have parents
that have these kids that show up

for the plots and then disappear.

Like, you know, not consider them.

It's like, didn't you have a kid?

You're never gonna forget that
Kristen is a mom in this show.

Like,

Ben: Uh, I think we call that, I
think we call that the Ross Effect.

Jeremy: Yeah.

The, the thing that I really like about
the kids in this show is that they are

all written for uh, and then they all
deliver their lines at the same time.

So like, you miss half of, but
occasionally you catch something

and you're like, oh, what
the fuck's she talking about?

Ben: They're just like a
child shaped maelstrom.

Emily: Yeah.

Jeremy: and like they're all sort of,
they're all sort of going on and playing

off of each other in a way that's almost
impossible to do on a TV show or a stage

or anything like crosstalk like that.

Both writing it and getting actors
to do it in a way that works

is, is incredibly difficult.

And that's something they
do very well in this.

Ben: This show, and it's
always sunny in Philadelphia.

You heard it here.

Alicia: And you know, as the
series progresses, you learn

more about each girl on her own.

But like they do.

Very much feel like siblings also.

Yeah.

Kristen's mom, the Gamil,
she's definitely evil.

She like just embraces
evil wholeheartedly.

She is

Emily: sad.

Alicia: she is.

No, no, no, no.

Not, no.

Not sad.

No, no.

she's not like a victim of evil.

She's like, I am making a choice and
this is the choice that I want to make.

Emily: But I don't want, she's not, I
I don't think that it would be like,

Ben: Do you think she's gonna get
less sexy when she turns evil?

Come on.

Alicia: gets

Emily: it just, it feels
more, I don't know.

It feels like, I guess it, it's depends
on how the execution is because her

character felt interesting because
she was the grandma of these kids

and the mother of this Catholic girl.

You know, like,

Alicia: Yeah.

She's not Catholic

Emily: Yeah, I figured as much,
but like, I, I don't know.

It feels like her, her being evil, like
actually evil to me is kind of a cop

out because she's so cool, you know?

It's

Ben: Well, I think what you have here
is that like this show seems to be like

good people can have shades of gray.

But evil is Capital E.

Evil.

I mean, it is literally like
fucking Benjamin Line is going

like, I'm gonna make innocent,
I'm gonna lock up innocent people.

And I'm like, guilty people go free.

Like

Jeremy: only really because it's

Michael Emerson saying it that it works.

I feel

like, like.

Emily: yeah,

Alicia: Okay.

Cheryl, is one of my favorite characters,
despite the fact that she is like, she

actively chooses, like, oh, you're evil.

Okay,

Ben: Nothing, you're not make,
you're not saying anything.

That makes me like, the character less,

Alicia: You know, they're,
she's like, what do you want?

What do you want?

What do you want me to do?

You want me to like,
make people do scroll?

Okay.

I can figure that out.

Jeremy: She's on that, that
Eartha kit shit that I wanna

Ben: uh, it's giving me maleficent

Alicia: It's, it's giving,
it's giving me Eartha.

Yeah.

Emily: it's not evil, evil,

Alicia: Leland keeps thinking that he's
going to outsmart these girls and he

keeps just getting like, he, they don't
react in the way that he would expect.

Ben: Lewin doesn't actually seem good at

Jeremy: that's what's interesting
about Leland to me, is that he's

sort of like, The, objectively evil
version of Ghostface, like we were

talking about earlier, that like, he
has this, like these evil machinations

and he is got a plan and everything,
but he is not beyond being just like

tripped up by some little girls.

And, you know, he will, he will take
a frying pan to the face occasionally.

Like that's just part
of, part of his whole

Ben: I mean, his very first scene, he
just gets fucking hunched in the throat

by Luke Cage and tries to laugh it off,
like, yep, that's totally what I meant.

Emily: Yeah.

Well, I, all the stuff that you sa
that you told me sounds exciting.

I'm still like, I have
to see it in context to

Alicia: And it takes forever to get

there.

That's one complaint I have about
the show is that because it's a

procedural, it is plotting a little bit.

Emily: yeah.

And on one side I'm like, okay, I'm,
if, as long as the monster of the

week is interesting, like as long
as I could be into that, then sure.

Whatever, like the meta plot, you know,
we'll see where the meta plot goes.

'cause I see George like in another
series or in another movie, George

would be a really interesting, just kind
of manifestation of somebody's guilt.

With the discussion of angels and demons,
you know, I find it very interesting

because it is a, it kind of a very cartoon
way of people struggling with their

own guilt and their own aspirations.

You know, using that template, which
is very basic template, you know, this

black and white template to start adding
colors to we have this chessboard of

angels and demons and people trying
to find a, a moral path and do right.

You know, make the right
decision through life about,

you know, what, what things are.

But the thing is that the chess
board isn't, is is not flat.

The chess board is not two
colors in, in real life.

So how do we like, adapt that and to

in,

Jeremy: dimensional chess.

Emily: yeah.

For minute 40.

God, I'm so sorry.

Ben: The devil plays checkers.

Emily: The way that the show starts
with like, okay, so this is the church's

basic understanding of good and evil,
or this is what we think the church's

basic understanding of good and evil is.

How are we going to play with that?

And I'm not quite sure yet how
much the show is validating

the church's understanding.

You know what I mean?

Ben was saying that like this Catholic
church propaganda equates possession with

insanity or blames all of the fucking
evil in the world on social media.

You know?

'cause a lot of that is not quite
developed ESP in the first two episodes,

which are the only ones I've seen.

Ben: Also, like we already have an evil
intractable force that has possessed

people and manipulates them into
doing great acts of societal harm.

fucking called capitalism.

Emily: Yeah.

Jeremy: I thought you were
gonna say the Republican

party, but

Ben: Capitalism.

Emily: thought, I thought
you were gonna say

Ben: That's,

Emily: Anon,

Ben: that's too evil.

Oh my God.

That's just

Alicia: I mean, would you be
surprised if Q Anon showed up in

Ben: the Orson from Lord of the Rings had
more nuance than the Republican party.

Emily: Well they fucking say four chan.

Jeremy: yeah, I, I was gonna say like
what you were describing with the, the

demon as far as like being Kristen's,
like literal demon on her shoulder and,

and, you know, manifestation of her guilt
and stuff, that is very much what they

do with uh, Leland and David is like,
I was a little confused the first time

it happens, but like often when David
is in his room praying or thinking or

whatever, Leland just shows up in the
background and is he's not actually there,

but he is the devil on David's shoulder.

going through, you know, all of
these things, vocalizing his negative

thoughts and you know, he's, he's
doing a lot of self-talk as Leland.

I mean that was really interesting for me.

Ultimately where where this show kind of
falls short for me is, is not necessarily

its fault, it's just this procedural
element of it is very slow for me.

Especially like the stuff that does
interest me is some of the like developing

supernatural stuff over the series.

Ben: Oh yeah.

I wanna know what the deal is with the
60, like the fucker up with them, 60.

Emily: A very specific number
to remember while you're

having a near death experience.

Lemme just say that.

Ben: Also I've been play, I grew
up raising, like playing Halo

games, so I forgot the Bible
had numbers that aren't seven.

Jeremy: yeah.

Yeah.

I think, the grind of it and the
sort of like, let's introduce

something that is supernatural.

Oh, it's not supernatural.

We, we gotcha.

How are we gonna do it this time?

I, I referred to it to Alicia as
the anti-D doctor who instead of

like, everything being aliens,
everything's always bullshit.

Like

Ben: I mean, that is I
kind of think like what Dr.

Who is to XFiles, like Lucifer is to
this where if XFiles and this are being

like, Ooh, maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

Then he got Lucer who's
like, I'm the devil.

This is my devil face.

You can't kill me.

Jeremy: yeah.

I, I, I think if Lucifer had spent the
first like, three seasons being like,

is he your, isn't he really the devil?

I would've been like,
oh God, fuck this show.

As it was the procedural stuff
was what killed me on Lucifer.

Ben: Which does lead to

Alicia: was still

Ben: can't believe you lied
to me about being the devil.

And he, and he gets to
go like, I didn't lie.

You just didn't believe me.

Alicia: I cannot.

We're not gonna act like Lucifer
did a great job with pacing

though, as far as a story, I guess.

Ben: no.

I'm like, God, no.

God no.

Look, the fucking will.

They won't.

They, in that goddamn
relationship was torturous.

Alicia: Yeah.

Ben: They fucking had

Jeremy: of a will.

They, why would they, like, she sucks.

Like there's, it's very rare that there's
one of these shows where like the male

lead is like, Attractive and fantastic
and charismatic and great and the female

leads socks in every possible way.

But this one really captured

that.

It's not like, I'm not calling her
unattractive or anything, but she is just

like, she is plain potato chips, man.

Ben: to quote.

It's always sunny.

This is not a will they, won't they?

This is, I know they won't
and I don't want them to.

Alicia: yeah.

Emily: Speaking of Will.

They, won't they?

I really don't like the forced sexuality
of this demons immediately pouncing on

tension between Dave Acosta and Kristen.

Like, I feel

Ben: Yeah.

By episode two,

Emily: could,

Alicia: Yeah.

Emily: episode one, even

Alicia: I was like, can you, can you
give that a little time to the, I mean,

it's there like they have chemistry,

Jeremy: mean also like who, I don't
know who would say talk about it

to their therapist after meeting
this guy twice, but like, yes,

Ben: met my culture, I would
tell my therapist immediately.

Emily: yeah, no, like I would, I mean, I
don't know if I would tell my therapist

immediately, but if my Coter showed
up and asked me like, Hey, can you,

can you investigate demons with me?

I'd be like, sure.

Alicia: of

course.

Jeremy: it's not against the
rules for priests to be hot

Ben: You know what, what does help
me with just how quick they jump to

that is between priest in training,
living at the convent, a husband

fucked off to climb mountains,
leaving you to like raise four kids.

I understand why both of these
people are very repressed and horny.

Alicia: When, do you think
she got that doctorate?

Like she used to climb mountains too.

Like they used to climb

Ben: Somewhere between the mountain
climbing and four children.

Alicia: Yeah.

And she seems pretty young, like it
doesn't look like she got her degrees and

went mountain climbing and then had kids.

Jeremy: Maybe she has a doctorate
in rock psychology, like.

Emily: I mean,

Ben: that would

Emily: because

Alicia: I would explain a
lot why you would ask a rock.

Do you like mechanics magazines?

Ben: there were a couple things that
I definitely wanna bring up in these

uh, first three episodes and it's how.

At least so far how the show has handled
institutional bigotries and scandals

and flaws in the Catholic church.

The first time the Catholic Church
as an institution has scandals is

even like hinted at, comes from
Leland, who is explicitly this, you

know, this psychopath, this serpent
in Eden who everything he says.

So right off the bat, the church,
many, many incredibly real

and incredibly heinous crimes.

what this show chooses to use is
the mouthpiece of that criticism

is there, like, this person's
an untrustworthy psychopath who

Alicia: But isn't that like, what
the snake does in the Garden of Eden?

Like, he just tells the truth, like, what
does this, like what does the snake do?

Other than, I mean, he's tempting, but
like the snake literally just tells

them like, Hey, we eat this tree.

You're gonna get some knowledge.

And God doesn't want you
to have that knowledge.

Like it's all true.

Like

Emily: Yeah.

Alicia: a liar.

Emily: But, in that kind of gnostic
gospel version of the uh, serpent

of Eden in that version the serpent
doesn't represent the devil.

The serpent represents Jesus.

And that's a whole different thing that
needs to be unpacked because it also does

come with a fair amount of antisemitism.

Because gnostic gospels portray
the God of the Old Testament as the

devil, which is like, therefore they
give themselves permission to dismiss

the Torah and blah, blah, blah, blah.

Alicia: Okay, well, I've never heard
that I, but I was always taught in church

that like the devil doesn't have to
lie to you to get you to do bad things.

Emily: No.

Yeah, that's a, our interpretation

Ben: a choice the show is making about
who they're going to use to raise

that Very valid.

Emily: when we, yeah.

When we, when we talk about that version
of the, of Lucifer, so say we're talking

about Lucifer, the light bringer who
brings knowledge there's a interpretation

of the book of Genesis where they
fall from Grace is not so much the

consequence of sin, but the knowledge of
responsibility, it's a loss of innocence.

And once you know that your actions
have consequences for others more

than yourself or even for yourself.

You've are bound by the earth.

Now this, it's not always seen as
a sin for various interpretations.

But it is a self enforced thing.

When we talk about the serpent telling
the truth that is a little bit more

of, a interpretation, like Luciferian
interpretation, that, that Lucifer is not

so much an evil force, but a moral force.

When we see the devil as somebody who is
trying to tell us the truth or challenge

us, there is usually some kind of gray
area for us to interpret that character

as not evil, but just a trickster.

And that's where our trickster
archetype comes in with Lucifer.

They're just testing us you know,
taking us out of our usual paradigm.

In this case, Leland is
absolutely unabashedly evil.

He says, I'm gonna go around and
do bad things because I like it.

There's no gray area with him.

This is not.

The devil's advocate kind of situation.

This is,

Alicia: the devil's advocate,

Emily: but he is not

Alicia: but he is.

Ben: Yeah.

No, he is, yeah, he is literally
advocating on behalf of

Alicia: On behalf of the devil.

Like he goes and testifies

Ben: he, is a card carrying member
of like, The devil is like Posse.

Alicia: Cool.

Ben: Yeah.

Emily: So I'm saying more like the devil's

Ben: The devil has to
sign his W nine forms.

Emily: I'm talking about the
devil's advocate and the devil's

advocate with Don Reeves.

Ben: Yeah, she's got a big ass

Emily: Yeah.

And the devil in

Ben: Rock Pacino movie.

Alicia: So I don't think though that
telling the truth makes somebody not evil.

Emily: Right.

But when you, when you have a certain
amount of information that challenges

you, rather than just to make you
angry Then that's the difference

Alicia: Okay.

Explain that.

Explain that one.

Explain that a

Ben: To me it's not like Mike Chris.

It's not even on the theological level.

It's just like

Alicia: Right.

You're saying like so you're saying
like, this guy is like the only person

who's gonna point out that the church
is bad, is our bad guy, like we're

supposed to, the guy we're supposed
to be rooting against is the one who's

gonna point out that the church is bad.

Ben: Yes, and I do

Alicia: what I'm thinking is like, we
already know like the church is bad.

That's like, if Leland was like, you
know, Amer Thomas Jefferson owned slaves

and you you know, the criticism is, well,
only the bad guy is the one pointing

out that Thomas Jefferson owns slaves.

Ben: but I'm pretty sure saying that
can get you fired now in a few states.

Alicia: Well, no,

Emily: sure.

Well, yeah, I think,

Ben: I know.

I'm sorry.

That one was too, that one.

That one was too.

That one was too real.

I'm sorry.

Emily: well,

Ben: no, there is one other instance
of bringing up issues with the Catholic

church that I do wanna point out one
once we're done wrestling with this

Alicia: Yeah.

Emily, I I want you to

Ben: Yes,

yes.

Sorry,

'
Emily.

Emily: oh yeah.

No, so, what I'm talking about is
that there's a difference between

the devil's advocate who is
bringing up an inconvenient truth

Alicia: Hmm.

Emily: and a devil's advocate, like
the ones on Twitter that are just

trying to make you angry, right?

Alicia: I guess Leland is the one
that's just trying to make you angry.

Emily: Because when, Mike
Coulter punches him in the

Alicia: Hmm.

Emily: he is satisfied.

Alicia: Yeah,

Emily: You know, like a true devil
in this case, in this paradigm is one

who is satisfied to make you angry.

Right?

Who is evil.

Alicia: Is not trying to be tricky.

He's trying to get you mad.

Emily: yeah.

A trickster figure is someone who
challenges you like a court jester

who makes jokes about the king having
ever, ever so many bastards, right?

Alicia: Sure.

So it's like the devil is adversary
versus the devil as evil incarnate.

Emily: yes.

A lot of our interpretations of
the serpent and the Garden of

Eden are in that adversary area
like Crowley from a good omens

who to him like being a demon
is a job, but he is interested

in humans and he's interested
in human beings having abilities

and, and being autonomous, right?

So, you know, he's like, here's a choice.

Instead of saying, don't do this,
saying you could do this, but

stuff will might happen, right?

And you know, that's what the
trickster figure does as an archetype

is that it gives us a choice

Alicia: Yeah.

So I, I gotta say I
didn't grow up Catholic.

I grew up kind of non-denominational.

Maybe more and more I'm realizing
that the church that I grew up in

was kind of, prosperity gospel ish,

Ben: Ooh,

Alicia: but.

Ben: worship The Good Saint Ronnie Reagan.

Alicia: But we were always taught
that, well, there are two main things.

One is that if you're good God
will reward you financially.

And it's not bad to have money,
but that's neither here nor there.

That's not

Ben: Oh, that, that's very different than

Alicia: Yes.

Ben: the religion that I was grew

Alicia: Yeah.

You, you know, you'll be given
your measure, pressed down,

shaken together, and overflowing.

Like that's the, that's the line.

But the thing that I'm interested in is
the idea that, Satan is the adversary.

Like if you do wrong, it is because
you made the choice to do wrong.

Not because evil forces have acted upon
you and have forced you to do wrong.

Ben: I always

Alicia: Satan is like, he adversary,
but he's working, but he works like

with God so that you can choose and God
wants you to choose the right way, but

the wrong way is always there, but it
is through your trials and tribulations,

through this choice making that you grow.

That is what, I don't know if
Catholicism is different in that respect.

Any Catholics here?

Catholics.

Catholics, Catholics?

No.

None of you.

Okay.

So, uh, if you're a Catholic
uh, write in, let us

Ben: Yeah.

And in my religion we had, we
had two main rules, which was

follow all of our very long set of
rules or God will fuck you over.

And the second rule, ah, God's
probably gonna fuck you over anyway.

So the other but the other moment
I do wanna talk about though, where

they did bring up the criticisms of
the Catholic church, and I thought

this was both better, but in a way
kind of more insidious or like subtle

where, and it was, it was the scene,
and I forget if it was the second

or third episode, but it was Kristen
and David, and she's confronting

him about him being in the precinct.

That means he ascribes to, you
know, the homophobia all, and I

like the anti-choice and all of that

Jeremy: Doesn't it bother you?

All the sex scandals and stuff

Ben: sex scandals.

And he's able to be like, and
again, this is now our main p

o v character bringing this up.

So like I do like that.

But this show has also now, and I think
you kind of hit the nail on the head,

Jeremy, in your intro when you're like,
Hey, they figured out how to get like

young, like progressive liberals to
get interested in the Catholic church.

And I feel like that was perfect.

And it's why I used the word
propaganda, because we know

institutionally that homophobia,
that misogyny, that anti-choice

that's not fucking going anywhere.

Emily: Yeah.

Alicia: As cute as the current Pope is.

Yeah.

Ben: like that's baked
in and not changing.

And yet through three
episodes this show has set up.

David.

Now as for our essence, the
representative of the Catholic church,

Alicia: the stabler, is

Ben: he is the Yeah.

Like he is the face of the church.

And is this sort of saying like, oh,
don't worry that the institution isn't

changing this this he you're allowed.

Yeah.

Like you can get in like, come in and like

check him out.

Alicia: cute.

Ben: on your side.

Alicia: raise a good point
because he, that beard, you

know, is so well trimmed and I

Jeremy: I will say having relatives
who are Catholic not, not being

Catholic myself, but like being
acquainted enough with Catholicism

to like know these things.

That's a very Catholic point of view.

Because like Catholicism still sort of
teaches that Everything else is wrong.

Like, this is the way Jesus literally
established this church and told

these dudes, Hey, go out and do this.

And so like, yes, there may
be stuff that's wrong with it.

The Catholic Church is run by
people and people are fallible.

So like there's going
to be issues with that.

But like, what is the alternative?

Just not trying, you know, you can't
found a different church that's not okay.

Like that's not allowed.

And I think the comparison to Stabler
in, in Law and Order is somewhat

valid of like, what is he going to do?

Go start a rival police
force for New York.

Like,

Ben: I would love to see that.

Oh my God.

Elliot Stabler starts his own police, like
his own progressive police in New York.

I would love that.

Elliot Stabler community like
community security leader.

Jeremy: yeah.

'cause I, I think with the church,
it's not just an institution though.

I think it's like, that is for
Catholics, that is the way,

like there is no other way.

Except for through the church,
through like Peter's church.

For better or for worse, like,
I think that makes sense for the

motivations of this character is
like, he wants to do good things.

He wants to fight evil.

This is the way to do it.

The other people who are, are a part of
this may not all be right, and there may

be bad things, but the way to fix those
bad things is to fix those bad things.

Not to leave and go, you know, say fuck
this place and start somewhere else.

Whether or not that's right or true
or anything that is I think very

much the Catholic point of view.

Ben: That does make a
certain amount of sense.

And I suppose if you have that belief,
no amount of saying y'all, I think

that Cheney's been outta the bottle
for a while, is gonna fix things.

when your beef literally
goes back to Martin Luther.

Emily: like the, the one
that King was named after.

Ben: Yeah.

Like not the King Jr.

Variety,

Emily: yeah.

So, but that's the thing too, is I was
looking at the show and I was thinking

about the propaganda element of it
and I was thinking like, okay, so

we have this institution, the propaganda.

Sure.

That's pretty good.

That's good.

So we have that.

And I'm thinking, okay, so all right, we
have this show and it has this propaganda

in it, and it has this stuff going on.

And, you know, it's like we say highly
problematic, but I'm here for this.

I'm here for the writing

Ben: again, I am, I'm going
to keep watching this show.

I quite enjoy the mythology, the
characters, and the procedural elements.

Emily: do, I do as well.

But I was thinking, okay,

Ben: I'm probably gonna watch an
episode after we wrap up tonight.

Emily: like compared to other procedurals,
where's the level of propaganda

and propaganda versus each other?

And so, and

then I

I turn to my roommate and I
say, what do you think is worse?

Cops or the Vatican?

And

they,

Ben: Fuck.

Emily: we did decide the Vatican
because they've been around longer,

Ben: I mean, that's fair.

I mean, I think that's a fair point is
that if we have truly not figured out

how to do a non propaganda procedural,
is there more church propaganda

than there is normally propaganda?

And if I would accept a baseline
level of propaganda, why am I not

accepting that same baseline of church?

Emily: Yeah, because I was thinking,
if, if I'm gonna accept propaganda,

you know, if I love Brooklyn nine nine.

As much as I do, and yeah, we all do.

And that's the thing is that like
Brooklyn nine nine, especially

after 2020, the show went in a
completely different direction.

Alicia: Absolutely.

Ben: never seen a show.

I've never seen a show.

Just like guilt itself
out of existence before.

Emily: yeah.

And, but I still love Brooklyn Nine
Nine, and we still watch cop shows.

We still, I mean the fricking
X-files, you know, it's the F B

I, there's a lot of shit going on
with, the justice system in general.

Ben: Though, given how often they
go against the federal government,

it's kind of crazy that the F B I
keeps getting them on the payroll.

Alicia: I'm still stumped by
the question of which is worse.

Like, I've really been turning
that over in my mind for the

last like two minutes or so.

Emily: Well, I mean, 'cause if you
think about like, okay, the justice

system funded by like, the elite, Or

like

Ben: also

Emily: enforcement funded.

Alicia: Yeah, exactly.

That's where I'm going.

That's where my is going.

Emily: Yeah.

Like

on a long enough timeline, those
two things just become one.

Right.

And if we're talking about the
Vatican Church propaganda, all we

have to do is look at an old history
book and C B C A D, you know,

Jeremy: I mean, if we're gonna, if
we're gonna include the Vatican you

know, going out on crusades, we have
to then include the military and

the question of propaganda because
like, that's that's an external

Ben: what counts as cop?

Like were those guards chasing
down Aladdin through the

mar, through Theba market?

Like were they cops or do we only
count it once we get to like,

You're 18th century modern London

Alicia: Nah,

Jeremy: I only count Bobby's that
have the little hat and everything.

Alicia: Nah,

Emily: The guys in
Aladdin were totally cops.

Alicia: cops.

riffraff Street rat.

they

Emily: Yeah.

Ben: Oh, that's cop as

Emily: yeah, yeah, yeah.

yeah.

So, but what I was talking about, the
X-files were, the X-files was actually

address like all these different
arms of like for the black of a

better term, shadow organizations.

Thanks anon for making it all stupid
and making everything that I talk about.

The XFiles sound like I'm crazy.

The XFiles is fiction.

Okay.

It's fiction.

Ben: But their chemistry was real.

Emily: No, I mean, okay.

Alicia: are Kim Trails.

Just

Emily: listen.

listen.

I, and when

Ben: The gay frogs are real.

At

least

I

Emily: I'm not gonna even
tell my middle school story.

We we're, I wanna

have dinner today.

Ben: No, Sorry, Emily.

Emily: it's

So the X-files did address the
corruption in the government.

There's corruption in the government.

Now, the problem with the Vatican Church,
one of the plethora of problems with

the Vatican Church is that, yeah, they
have corruption, but they also, like

on the, the very fucking front of their
pamphlets or whatever, their proverbial

pamphlets, they're like, fuck gay people.

Fuck anybody that, isn't into Jesus.

.
Alicia: wait, which,
where are these pamphlets?

Emily: it's

Ben: I mean, that, that's
definitely the message I a

queer Jewish person have gotten

Alicia: could, I've seen uh, I, yeah, I

could

Emily: pamphlet?

that's the, it's not the literal pamphlet.

I'm

talking about the,

I mean,

Jeremy: Guys, they're

Emily: chit

Alicia: are not Catholic, right?

Jeremy: no,

Alicia: I thought those

were,

Emily: those are Baptist.

Ben: I mean, any business model
that's give me money and you get to

go to Paradise, but you, but you,
can't cash it in until after you die.

if someone just told me that
business model out of the blue, I'd

be like, I'm not giving you money.

Emily: I mean, but if it was Luke
Cage, I'd listen to him sell it to

Alicia: Think you that.

I mean, the trim.

Did you see the, have
you seen him in a hoodie?

Emily: Yes.

I've seen him in a hoodie.

I've seen him in a turtle deck.

I've seen him in a v Like, that's
the thing is that was one of the

most brilliant choices of this
show is to cast him as our stable.

Alicia: Can we just talk about like how
he's got this boyish charming face like

it's, but he's got like a very manly,
like, he just looks like when he smiles,

he looks like he would give me a warm hug.

You know,

Jeremy: I, I bet Mike
Colter's a great hugger.

Alicia: I, he looks like if I met him in
person and I was like, can I have a hug?

And it was a bad hug.

I wouldn't believe in
anything ever again because

Emily: It couldn't be though.

Ben: according to Wikipedia, him
and Viola Davis are second cousins.

Emily: There you go.

like he couldn't give a bad hug because
like, even if he like gave me a hand

hug and did one of these, or even if
he did a hover hand on me, I'd be like,

Alicia: Just radiating

Emily: a shit.

I don't give a shit.

It's 'cause he's, it's him.

And I guess, you know, good job
because if, if anybody's gonna

make me Catholic, it's him.

Um,

Ben: He is not gonna make me Catholic,
but he could have me shouting for Jesus.

All right.

Alicia: Oh, wow.

Emily: That's how you do it.

Jeremy: I was building a
similar joke over here and you

Emily: yeah.

Jeremy: Okay.

I was gonna start bringing it
around to our questions here.

was gonna say,

Alicia: Oh, then I'm not ready.

Jeremy: oh,

Alicia: was something
before the questions.

Jeremy: okay.

Go ahead then.

Alicia: The other thing that I
wanted to mention was talk about

substance abuse or substance use.

You know, one of the priests they were
like, I smell whiskey on his breath.

You know, oh, this guy, he's an alcoholic.

And at one point he said, I'm
not sure God uses alcoholics

for his miracles or whatever.

Jeremy: Also, Luke Cage did a drug
immediately after talking about that.

Ben: I feel like the alcoholic
priest is almost like a stock trope.

Alicia: exactly.

So it

Ben: I've seen like tons of alcoholic
pre uh, like I feel like they

say like, I don't think God uses
alcoholic priests to do miracles.

I'm like, based on movies and TVs, I
feel like God only uses alcoholic priests

for

Emily: yeah.

Better an alcoholic

than a pedophile.

Ben: that's true.

Alicia: I have never done
any hallucinogenic drugs.

I don't plan to.

But there's this whole thing about,
like David, you know, fervently

praying, he's praying, he's running,
he's like using, you talked about

why not pick a different religion?

Like you wanna go and do good things.

You wanna go be a priest?

And one of his friends later brings
that up, like, why'd you pick this one?

And he picked it because he's so worried
about backsliding into his former life.

He wanted to pick the most stringent thing
that he could think of to get involved in.

Right.

So he like literally lives at church.

He doesn't even live in his own house
because he's so worried about going back.

I think they hinted at it.

He goes to like, he runs past a nightclub
and he can't really run away from it.

And they're like, oh, you're
the one that God talks to.

And he is like, well, I
haven't had any visions lately.

So then he decides to do drugs
so that he can have a vision.

Is that like, is that a, is that a thing

Ben: I,

Emily: I mean,

Ben: I've seen some,

Jeremy: absolutely.

Like

Alicia: you do shrooms
so you can see God and

Jeremy: there are a lot of people who
drink and do drugs because they think

it helps them be more creative, like

Alicia: Does it?

Jeremy: feel stuck.

Ben: I will say I have seen
some demonic shit on shrooms.

My attitude wasn't, I am truly
seeing this fucking picture turn

into demon nightmare skulls.

Hell must be real.

I was watching him being like,
yeah, these drugs fucking rule.

Alicia: hmm.

Emily: I mean, and, and

Ben: So I guess I worship.

So I guess what I'm saying
is, my God is drugs.

Alicia: Thanks Steve.

Jeremy: or, my God, drugs.

Ben: I would become a
priest in the drug church.

Emily: a lot of people use

hallucinogenic drugs Especially like
mushrooms and, and I can't remember.

Ben: Yes.

The, the religion, the religious and
spiritual connection to psychedelics

is something that, look, I don't
know how much history there is in

Catholicism specifically, but it has
a long, deep, rich history across

a wide variety of cultures and

Alicia: So do you think that
makes it any more or less real if

somebody has, because he seems to.

He seems conflicted about it.

Like if he knows that he can just do
shrooms and, talk to God or see these

things that he is wanting to see and
have this experience that he is wanting

to have, why doesn't he just do that?

And he seems like he's trying
to avoid getting to it that way.

Jeremy: Well, I mean it's the same
with creativity, with writing, with

art of like, You want to be able
to do it normally, naturally, you

know, in, in your normal state.

Ben: I'm okay.

I'm okay at doing it.

I'm okay with, however, that

Jeremy: but you don't, you
don't want to have to, do drugs

or drink or whatever to feel

Ben: No, I, I don't, I don't care
to go full hemmingway with it.

Emily: Yeah.

And I mean, when it comes to using
substances, you know, you don't have

to have an addictive sub substance to
be addicted to a particular condition.

So I wanna just put that out the
window, that like, you know, Catholicism

certainly a substance, whether it be
alcohol or hallucinogenic mushrooms

or cocaine or Molly or whatever,

Ben: Which we do wanna say, people
typically don't get addicted to shrooms.

Alicia: Right?

Sure.

but I think, I'm just wondering like.

If he had this life before
you know this, they lost.

But Leland mentions Julia and is
like, oh, what would Julia think?

And you know, there's this implication
that he had some sort of sorted

past before he had this experience,
and then he decided to become

Ben: Which I wanna see that because
I'm three episodes in and I'm

like, damn, there hasn't been a
single Mike Coulter sex scene.

Jessica Jones, though, by
this point in Jessica Jones.

Emily: Yeah.

Alicia: what is it saying about
the church then if he is just

substituting this addiction for a
past a, you know what I'm saying?

Like if he, I

Emily: it does, there is

Ben: where I'd

Jeremy: Are you saying that religion is
like maybe like an opiate for the masses?

Is that what you're implying?

Ben: I mean, look, there's a re look.

I mean, hell, the religious
roots of Alcoholics Anonymous.

You do that 12 step program, one
of the 12 steps is accept God

Emily: yeah.

And a lot of christian ideals
are in the, the, like all of

the

Ben: you hear it in stories
out of prison all the time.

I mean, I no, I think you're
a hundred percent right.

I think it is totally.

I.

Substituting one addiction for another.

Just trying to choose, you know, I guess
this idea that like, if you have this

personality, trying to channel it into
health, into healthier means of like,

you know, instead of being addicted to
binge eating, I'm gonna get addicted to

Alicia: Jogging instead.

Yeah.

And is that actually, my question
is, is that actually healthier?

And so I just wonder if in that
little scene that they show of

him, like, manically praying,
you know, manically running.

Like he's not just, I'm gonna do
a little prayer, I'm gonna take

a little jog and then I'm gonna
come home and I'm gonna relax.

He's like, he is like almost,

Ben: I think that depends
on what I'm assuming.

At some point we'll get to see like his
flashback episode or what he was like, I

mean, if he was straight up like robbing
grannies to pay for meth and then was

like, ah, priesthood, this is better.

I'm like, yeah, you know what?

I'll think consider this
is the better alternative.

I would rather you pray all day than
be robbing grandma's for meth money.

Jeremy: Heather, you pray all
day, then pray on Grammys all day.

Ben: Yeah.

Emily: Right.

Well,

Ben: So I think to that, I just
have to say like, it depends on what

the alternative to what we see is.

Alicia: Okay.

Jeremy: mean, it's absolutely
healthier from a physical standpoint.

Whether it's healthier from a mental
standpoint is a different question.

Emily: Yeah.

Ben: Man, if we get a flashback
episode, he's just fucking

robbing grannies left and right.

I wanna be like fucking called it.

Emily: well, and I, I am also
interested 'cause it's hard for me

to say right now, as you know, I, I
don't know enough about his character

to really say what is better for him,

you know, because if they're,

Jeremy: crime in Harlem,

Emily: yeah.

Like, if the drugs are like a relapse,
then that's implicitly vilifying drugs.

Right?

Jeremy: Now he wants to have a vision,
like the vision is the important part.

Ben: I assume it has something
to do with thrill seeking.

I mean, that he was in the war zones,
and I assume it was reckless thrill

seeking was the basis of this s and
again, I'm guessing Julia was some sort of

Emily: Sure.

Ben: in this journalism, like was his
photographer or something of that degree.

And he was reckless chasing a bigger,
you know, a bigger thrill, more danger,

more money, what have you and like,
and that recklessness got her killed or

Jeremy: it's, it's interesting to me.

I think there's a dynamic.

And with David's character
generally, that David just, he really

wants to be a part of something.

Like he talks about that journey to
becoming a priest, starting with seeing

these guys in the military, seeing these
marines who like, were doing these good

things and who were like a family unit,
you know, the, the group of them and

like, wanting to be part of something
like that and how like the church

and, and priesthood was sort of his,

Ben: So we started another crusade.

Alicia: So he's a soldier in the Lord's
army now, is that what you're saying?

Ben: I mean, they, I feel like the
show's pretty blatant about like he

is a soldier in the war against evil

Emily: Yeah.

Yeah, and that's, I mean,

Ben: is one of God's soldiers.

Alicia: Praise the Lord
and pass the ammunition.

Is that the right time to use that

Ben: and absolutely nothing terrible
has ever resulted from somebody

thinking they were God's chosen soldier.

That has never fueled
any terrible things ever.

Jeremy: to completely change the topic,
I did wanna talk about Kristen's good

taste and that she, and she is reading
in one of the scenes to her daughters

about the Sicilian and the men in
Black, which means she's reading the

Princess Bride which is a good choice.

Always a good decision.

She's reading the Princess Bride.

Um, Yeah.

the, And the men in
black are talking yeah.

Is is fantastic.

Okay, let's bring it
around to our questions.

I do actually wanna say, I feel like,
and we've talked about it a bit, that

one of the things that this show hits
really well is that it is pretty feminist.

Emily: Mm-hmm.

So far, as far as we know,

Jeremy: Well,

Ben: At the very least, the
Bouchard family is quite wonderful

across three generations of women.

Jeremy: yeah, and I, I think they're
all sort of independent and interesting

you know, we, we do also, you know,
later get more female characters.

as, As we talked about, they have,
you know, an older woman as part

of this cast who is vital and maybe
a little evil, but also very vir

and has her own shit going on.

And is very, very sarcastic about
having to watch these kids until,

you know, nine at night or whatever
it is that Kristen comes home.

Emily: Mm-hmm.

Jeremy: Uh, She's not just a grandma
who's happy to be there and whatever, you

know, she she's got her own shit going on.

And then Kristen herself is a complex
main character in a way that I feel like

a lot of times female main characters
and procedurals aren't allowed to be

Emily: That's true.

Ben: I mean, again, it's a whole
genre of person who is not COP

teams up with murder detective.

Where it's like fiction writer, you
know, crime fiction writer teams up

with N Y P D Detective, the Devil
teams up with L Lap D murder detective.

And I feel like the one instance
where it was gender swapped was bones

bone doctor teams up with F B I.

But in this case you do have, so I
feel like there's a bit of that, but

also the elements of like, well neither
of them are cops, but you do still

have Mike Holter kind of as the cop
character for being the one who works

for the main organization, sort slash
source of authority in this world.

So it is a little bit where she
gets to be kind of the interesting

outsider to the procedural

Alicia: and Asaf.

Ben: and Assam, I, you know what, we
didn't talk much about Ass Mafi, but he

is a very welcome presence in this show.

Emily: I

love his character.

I

Jeremy: Well, I really appreciate
that he, is a contrast to David, not

just in the religious sense, but in
the, like, not wanting to be part of

things since, like David, he doesn't
really want to be part of his family.

He doesn't want to be part
of his family's religion.

He doesn't wanna like, he
doesn't want to believe anything.

Alicia: he does like solving puzzles.

Other spoilers.

He and Kristen's kids become pretty
close, and so every scene with him

and the girls is also my favorite.

Like anytime he's hanging

Ben: Uh, He would be a good
babysitter that checks out.

I.

Emily: sounds wonderful.

And

Jeremy: Yeah.

I I also love the way that he chooses to
play Ben as sort of this, like, anytime

something happens that he can explain,
he gets freaked out and then he goes,

no, I'm gonna, it, it's fucking bullshit.

I'm gonna figure it out.

Like every time he sees it
and he goes, what the fuck?

And the only time he isn't able to
overcome it and call it bullshit is,

is when in the third one, , the home
speaker is, is talking to his sister

still after they've solved everything
that should keep that from happening.

And he grabs it and goes and
chucks it in the trash Like,

Ben: like if x-files, if it had
been Molder and Scully and other

Scully, who's extra Scully,

Emily: And

Jeremy: it.

Scully in Bob,

Emily: yeah,

Ben: and then no matter what
happens, the end of every episode,

Bob just goes like, nah, fuck that.

There's no goddamn aliens.

Jeremy: at, at

some point in every episode, like
he looks over at Scully and is

like this fucking guy, right?

Alicia: There's also a Midsummer
episode that is, features him heavily.

That is

Emily: Oh good.

Ben: Is he the Florence Pugh character?

Alicia: Sort of, yeah.

Ben: Yay.

Oban being a flower dress.

Alicia: No flower dress,
but everything else.

Jeremy: Yeah.

I think he is also, I mean, between
him and David, they're sort of the, the

centerpiece of

Alicia: cool too.

Ben: I like the sister.

Yes.

Well, the sister is what I, yes.

The sister is much more of what I wanna
see, which is, look, normally I would

not care about representation of specific
religious identities, but given the way

this show puts not just mythology, but
organized religion, so front and center.

Yeah.

I, I want to see more viewpoints from
a diverse set of religious beliefs

Jeremy: Yeah.

Also, I, I appreciate talking about
from a, the feminist perspective of

this is that when he gets stuck and
doesn't know what to do and can't

figure something out, and he goes to his
sister and is like, Hey, what is this?

You could figure this out.

Like what you, you're smarter than me.

Ben: that I really did
like I did like that.

Again, the Muslim hijab wearing woman is
still presented as like the smart, even

tech savvier than the tech savvy one.

I think you're right.

I think this show is real good on giving
us solid women characters, only one of

which is sexually assaulted by a demon.

There

Emily: yeah, yeah,

Jeremy: She's sexually
assaulted by her own demon.

Alicia: Um, okay.

What's your next question?

Jeremy: how do we feel about the
representation as far as race

and social justice and this like,
they're certainly thinking about it.

They're certainly aiming
to do something about it.

And I think in the
characters is interesting.

I think in the plot, especially
in the second one, it's a little,

just like it's a little clumsy.

Emily: Yeah.

Phoenix and I were watching this,
and we were talking about the sort

of, oh, it was racism the whole time.

Oh.

But

Alicia: Feel?

Racism is evil.

Emily: yeah, and racism was evil.

Like, you know, I thought it was
interesting that they brought that up.

But then the girl who was
in the photo with the angel

still had a white savior, so

Jeremy: I don't know
what this white savior

Ben: We don't know that the
angel actually saved her.

For all we know, that's just a
photo of being like, I'm a ghost

and I'm bouncing off the walls.

Look at this girl.

I wonder if she's alive.

Emily: the girl specifically recounted
a story where she was like, there

was a hole at my feet and 60, 66.

Oh,

specifically demons came out.

Ben: that

Emily: another woman.

Yeah, another woman took my hand and
said, everything's gonna be okay.

Jeremy: That all felt very comic books
tie in to me like, we need you to tell

a story, but in somewhere in this, we
need you to like have somebody have

a dream of, they see specifically 60
demons and it's like it's gonna tie back

into the thing that's happening this

Ben: Yeah, we're relaunching Zal
next year, so we need you to subtly

foreshadow that with some angel shit.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Ben: I'm kidding.

DC will never relaunch Zal.

I would like to see that character
come back, but that character

only exists because they wouldn't
let Grant Morrison use, man.

Anyway.

Emily: A less.

Jeremy: so how do we feel about,
I guess both Ben and David

as, as diverse characters,
representations of, of people of

Ben: mean,

like we said, I I, my feelings
about this is that while it wasn't

handled the best, I do appreciate it
choosing to highlight institutional

medical racism in episode two.

And I get, I think a lot still remains
be seen, but I, you know, it does check

off that kind of visible diversity of
having like, you know, your matri is.

A white woman, a black man, and a Muslim
man that you know at least that is

diversity at the ca.

Yeah.

Muslim atheist.

Like at least that is solid
diversity at the basic casting level.

Emily: Yeah, and I, I feel like
the intelligence of the watcher

was relatively respected.

Like, that the white savior thing
was the only thing that came up in

terms you know, big bones to pick.

you know, I think that
was just a, a, whoa, whoa.

Alicia: Yeah, the, the show does deal with
racism and misogyny and homophobia and

transphobia and all sorts of other isms.

as the episodes go on it, deals
with a lot of other things

that it considers social evils.

So the question of what is evil?

It's like, well, we didn't bind a.

like a demon possession, but
we did find racism so evil.

You know, that kind of thing.

Emily: I do like that the evil
in the show is not so much like a

literal demon evil, like the demon.

There was no demon possession.

It was somebody who was trying to
use demon's, possession as an excuse.

I think that there's, are places to
go with that and I think that that's

Ben: that is an interesting angle.

Playing up this idea that it's not
literal demons from hell possessing you.

It's people being influenced to
do things that are inside them.

Except episode three begins with like,
there are six known possession categories

here they are in elaborate detail.

Alicia: Yeah.

Emily: Yeah.

Which, I don't know if that's supposed
to be based on the actual, like what

the Vatican defines as possession
categories or what the show def defines

Ben: Either way, you can do
whatever the fuck you want.

They're not real

Emily: Yeah.

I mean, correct.

Jeremy: I do love like categorization,
though I do love, like them breaking

down the, this is the different
way people can be possessed.

Ben: I know it's not.

A part of the question, but we didn't
talk about the craziest fucking part of

the show, and that's the previously on
segment where it's just like diagonal

cut flashback cards set against
just this flowing milky background.

Alicia: So I'll say season three.

George does the previously on as
a fairytale, like storybook, like

as a popup.

Storybook.

Yeah.

They changed it up.

They also changed the
titles ever so slightly.

And I don't remember if it's season
two or season three, but there is a

note that says if you, if you click
skip intro, you're gonna be haunted.

You know, like there's a little
note that's at the bottom that's

like, don't you skip these titles?

Don't you dare do it.

Ben: That's pretty

Emily: other shows that
that really needs too.

Alicia: Jeremy, what's your last question?

Jeremy: um, we've talked actually
quite a bit about how it does or

doesn't deal with mental health.

Uh, it doesn't really do much of anything

Ben: I mean, most of it does
seem like a good chunk of the

plots are mental health or demon.

We can't tell the difference.

Jeremy: mental health, or demon or
pretending it's mental health or demon.

Um, So yeah, that one's interesting.

It okay, so it does feel a little bit
with class in sort of, especially what you

get from Kristen is struggling to get by.

That's part of why she takes this job.

Um, You know, after she gets dropped
from the DA's office, she is a mom

raising four kids, but also raising
four kids in a very nice house.

Alicia: A two bedroom house under a train.

It's not a very nice house.

Jeremy: nice inside.

Emily: Yeah, well,

when

Alicia: They decorated it pretty
hard, like the girls were busy

cutting out stars to decorate it.

Ben: York,

Alicia: Yeah, and it's like directly
under the, an elevated train.

Ben: man, student loans
and four kids, like

Alicia: This

Jeremy: An elevated, an elevated train
that's very loud outside, but you

can never hear an internal scenes.

Emily: Well,

Jeremy: And I guess that leads to the
one thing that it both does and doesn't

deal with and doesn't do so well.

Is the queer representation in this no, no
lgbtqia plus main characters or characters

at all in the first few episodes?

I'm sure there are later.

And the only sort of mention of gay
people is sort of like, how can you

be a priest in the Catholic church?

Don't they hate gay people?

Ben: I feel like this
might be another case.

You know, say them like they slash them
we're like, maybe they'd handle it

well, but I'm kind of okay with them
not handling it all for the time being.

Emily: yeah,

Jeremy: uh,

so, um, I guess that leads
us to the final question.

Uh, Do we recommend this, do you think,
we think people should check this out.

Alicia: if you like procedurals

Ben: Yeah, if

Alicia: and if you like a little, a
little tingle of fear, it's not, they,

they get a few jump scares in on you.

There's a few creepy things that
happen, but it's not like, don't know.

It's not like baba duke levels of scary.

So if you want a little.

scare, and a little, who done it.

Jeremy: You're gonna get some horror
in your horror, in your procedural.

Emily: Yeah.

I would say that you
should give it a chance.

I'm going to.

I'll see how you like it.

If you don't like it,
I would understand why

Alicia: I can agree with that.

Jeremy: Yeah.

I think for me it's ultimately
just, it's not for me.

Like I've occasionally dipped in on
watching an episode here and there with

Alicia as you've watched the whole series.

And uh, it's just just
a pacing issue for me.

Like i, at this point, episodic and
procedural shows are just not my jam.

And the fact that I, you know, I
appreciate the building of the, background

plot threads into a, you know, a meta
arc, but it builds way too slow for me.

Alicia: and it does have short
seasons, but it does not answer all

of the questions in those seasons.

So, yeah, it can get, it
can move kind of slow.

Emily: Yeah.

Ben: If, if you're a fan of procedurals
and you made your way, you know, through

your prodigal sons and your lucifers
and you're looking for something to

just like, kinda scratch that itch
uh, which is exactly what it's doing

for me, then yeah, I check it out.

If you're looking for a interesting
new procedural, but uh, you know, just

have a critical eye when watching it.

Emily: for sure.

Jeremy: absolutely.

Now the question is uh, what
would we even recommend to people?

Alicia: I would highly recommend
watching the Good Wife or The Good Fight.

cause I really enjoyed both of those
shows and it's from the same writers.

Jeremy: I think on, on that same
note, I was gonna say, I, I would

recommend the good fight the good wife.

I like the little less because it
is very like, Courtroom procedural.

The good fight I appreciate.

'cause it got weird.

Alicia: It

got real weird.

Jeremy: Um,

Alicia: I think you really liked
Andre Brower on that show as well.

Jeremy: yeah, they, they had a great
cast of like, just great actors they

brought in over the last several
seasons that like, really, like, made

it something that I, I was interested
in continuing to watch in a way that

procedurals don't usually hook me.

Alicia: Yeah.

Carrie Preston.

Coter Wallace Sean, not to
mention Christine Baranski

Jeremy: they, because of the time
it was going on, there's a whole arc

about covid in which, you know, one
of the characters is, sick in the

hospital and starts hallucinating.

Who is he hallucinating?

Frederick Douglas.

Yeah.

Frederick Douglas was talking to him

in the hospital.

the, you know, female characters
are given agency and desire

and, and things like that.

And the main character
does a lot of drugs in that

Alicia: Asks a lot of good questions,
like what would you do if you

found out that your dad was a civil
rights icon, was also a rapist.

Like, what, what, what are
you gonna do in that case

Jeremy: it's really solid show.

so yeah, that's also on Paramount Plus.

So check that out.

Uh, Emily, what did you have?

Emily: I have a couple things.

one, if you like supernatural procedurals
or shows that have, more questions,

then answer them Watch Twin Peaks.

The other one is the Prophecy
starring Christopher Walken.

The first prophecy, actually the
second prophecy movie is decent,

but the first one is really good.

It's kind of like just the, to the
nth degree version of this show.

And, you know, that includes Campiness.

And of course Christopher Walken
plays the Angel Gabriel, and

Figo Mortenson plays the devil.

So that's it.

Just watch that and you'll
see how it's related.

I.

I can't remember the name of the
main character, but he is the same

guy that played Casey Jones and
Teenage Shooting Ninja Turtles.

Jeremy: Ben?

Ben: I mean, I've been
recommending it all night, but

uh, yeah, fucking watch Lucifer.

It's a fucking absolute blast
of a procedural with lots of

that good and gooey mythology.

And it just gets better as it goes along.

Gets deeper into the mythology arcs
and doesn't have to deal with being

on Fox anymore after season three.

Jeremy: Yeah, it gets much wilder once it

Ben: And if you like how handsome
Mike Coulter is, you are definitely

gonna like how handsome Tom Ellis is.

Jeremy: I mean, very different tastes.

Emily: Yeah,

Ben: different kinds of
handsome, but also very handsome.

Jeremy: yeah.

Fantastic.

Well, uh, Alicia, as our guest,
can you let people know where

they can find you online?

Alicia: you know, I've been trying
to join some new apps, but nobody

ever has any invite code, so I
guess you can find me on Twitter for

the time being at Alicia Whitley.

Jeremy: all right.

Emily, what about you?

Emily: well, you can
find me on mega moth.net.

I'm also a mega moth on Patreon and
mega underscore moth on Instagram

and brand new mega Moth on Blue Sky.

I do have a list of people for
my invite codes, but you know,

if I get through them hit me up.

Jeremy: And, uh, Ben, what about you?

Ben: Yeah, well, I am still on Twitter
because I haven't set up threads

yet and I can't kill one of them.

Fancy blue sky invitations.

Why are we doing this?

I don't wanna be on social media.

Why am I seeking out new ones?

Uh, because I need the endorphin
hit from being acknowledged

Alicia: And now that I get most of my
news from going to wonder what's up

in the world today, let me see what
people are talking about on Twitter.

Where else am I gonna go for that?

Ben: Yeah, so I guess
again, Ben Con comics.

I'm at Ben Con comics on
Instagram, I guess soon to be

threads and yeah, I don't know.

Go to ben con comics.com.

Sign up for my newsletter.

I haven't started that yet.

I, but I'm going to try

Emily: for it.

Ben: and, yeah.

Griffin is out now in comic
shops and l Campbell wins.

Their weekend is out in bookstores
from Scholastic, October 17th.

So pre-order that now.

Jeremy: Yes.

As for me, I am at j ro five
eight on Twitter and Instagram.

I am now Jeremy Whitley at uh, blue Sky.

And I'm at jeremy whitley.com.

And you can go read The Dog Knight,
which is out now, which I wrote

is illustrated by Bree Indigo.

Also by the time this is coming out,
you can probably go uh, read some

of my new, my Little Pony story the
Unicorn of Odd, which is our, my Little

Pony adaptation of The Wizard of Oz.

It's funny, I promise.

Um, There's a lot of, a
lot of meta humor in that.

I'm sure you'll enjoy it.

And of course, the podcast is on
Patreon at Progressively horrified

our website at progressively horrified
transistor fm on Twitter, Prague Horror

Pod, where we'd love to hear from you.

And speaking of loving to hear from you,
we would love it if you'd rate and review

the podcast wherever you're listening.

Give us five stars that helps us uh,
get recommended to new listeners.

Thanks again Alicia, for joining us.

Uh,

Emily: you.

Jeremy: Talk about your show

Alicia: It was my pleasure.

Jeremy: thanks as always to
Emily and Ben for joining me.

And thanks to all of you for listening.

And until next time, stay horrified.