Jeremy: Good evening, and welcome to Progressively Horrified the podcast

where we hold horror to progressive standards that never agreed to.

Tonight we're talking about the movie I've been excited to check out for

a year now, the 2021 sequel to the original, Nia DaCosta's Candyman.

I'm your host, Jeremy Whitley and with me tonight, I have a panel

of cinephiles and Cenobites.

First, we're here to invade your house and find queer content and all

of your favorite movies, my co-host and comic book writer, Ben Kahn.

Ben, how are you tonight?

Ben: We are here to talk about a movie that features an immortal

being who is unfazed, if not made stronger, by the ravages of time...

and her name is Vanessa Williams.

Jeremy: We picked her up at the spooky crossroads of anime and

sexy monster media, it's co-host and comic artist: Emily Martin.

How are you tonight, Emily?

Emily: This movie is good enough that it made up for the fact

that there were quite a few less real bees than the original, but

Jeremy: It's just like the rest of the world, man.

Ben: I would have charged a lot more than a thousand dollars per sting I feel

like that had to have come up in one of the actors', like Screen Actors Guild

union contracts, where it's it's gotta be at least $10,000 a bee sting now.

Jeremy: You know what, man?

But this movie did not have a body suit
full of bees and the body horror was

much worse than a body suit full of bees.

Emily: Oh my God.

I was still into it.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Let's let's introduce our guests here.

We have, first of all from the Talking
Comics Podcast our friend Aaron Amos.

How are you doing Aaron?

Aaron: I am good.

I'm good.

Thanks for having me again.

Jeremy: It's our pleasure.

And the reviewer behind Diversity
in Horror, Morgan, how are you?

Morgan: I'm doing really well.

I'm very excited to talk about this movie.

The original Candyman is one of my
favorites and the follow-up is great.

And I've dissected this
movie like to death.

So I'm so excited to talk about it.

Emily: Did you get every bee out?

Morgan: Yes, I did.

Every single bee.

Jeremy: Got all up in
the mirror and got them.

And our English educator, and our
friend of the podcast Emmanuel Lipscomb.

Emmanuel, how are you?

Emmanuel: I am so excited
to talk about this.

The original movie ruined my life
and this one was much, much better to

see as an adult rather than a child.

Jeremy: True.

That just the kind of basics of this.

It is directed by Nia DaCosta.

It is written by Jordan Peele,
Nia DaCosta, and Win Rosenfeld.

It stars Yahya Abdul-Mateen, Teyonah
Parris, Nathan Stewart-Jarrett,

Colman Domingo, Vanessa E.

Williams, and of course, Tony Todd.

Uh, IMDB says it is a sequel of the
horror film Candyman that returns

to the now gentrified Chicago
neighborhood, where the legend to began.

And that is absolutely true and
really important to this movie because

gentrification and Cabrini-Green
are like a big part of this movie,

which I was really glad to see,

Ben: Like this movie totally returns
to the original and its themes of

folklore and gentrification and and these
communities and how they're created and

eviscerated and exploited and torn down.

And it's a really good movie
with a lot of good shit to say.

Emily: Everything in the, in
the first movie that kind of

didn't quite commit hard enough.

It finally commits to here.

You see a lot of movies these days
that are like the redo or the new

version or the blah, blah, blah.

Rarely do you get a movie
that is so good on its own.

Also very true to the source material.

And also just like its own style,
and it's not trying to pick up,

it's not, it's also not pandering.

There are cameos, but we'll get into that.

Ben: And this is really skipping to
kinda what happens in the end to a

degree, but this movie does feel like
it is part of a very new sub genre where

the influence is obvious of kind of
horror monster as superhero origin film

Emmanuel: Need it.

I need all of it.

Ben: In that, like in this way.

And I'm going to say, arguably, only this
way, Candyman reminds me of Malignant.

Emmanuel: I don't know how
to process that sentence.

Jeremy: Sure.

Ben: It's only, and the degree to
which they seem to have this same,

like horror movie as superhero origin.

Emily: There's a line.

This is the axis.

And Candyman is on one side.

And...

Ben: If a Nick Fury type showed up,
he was like, I'm recruiting people.

I got malignant, I got Candyman...

Like

Emmanuel: This is word salad.

Like, none of that...

Morgan: One of the things I really liked
about this Candyman is I felt like it

fixed one of the problems I had with
the original, which was mainly that

it's centered a white character, but
it's this movie about black trauma, but

it stars this upper class white woman.

And it's more about her trauma.

And the story was being told
by like a white director.

Which I feel like detracted somewhat
from what they were trying to do.

And this one, it centers, a black
character it's being told by black voices.

So it fixes that issue I
have with the original film.

Ben: I think they confront
that head on, it's right there.

Like textually, the spirit of Candyman
has been weakened because the story

has shifted to Helen and the part
of the plot is taking that power and

that centering of the narrative away
from Helen and putting it back on the

real victims of this racial violence.

Emily: I love how they completely
took away the random white savior

shit from the end of the first
Candyman and she's just remembered as

like a fucking crazy serial killer.

Jeremy: Yeah, it's almost like the
resolution to the original Candyman is,

"Oh, now, everybody remembers Helen.

She is the myth that people remember
and that people care about and

that has overshadowed, Candyman,
taking power away from him."

And that is the problem in this movie is
that people have forgotten about Candyman

and as such, there's this character who is
not necessarily just the protector, but in

part, the protector of this neighborhood.

And the, embodiment of the rage of
this neighborhood has lost power

and that they have to find him
and bring him back to some extent.

Aaron: You know how, when, you find some
adults who, come into their own identity

or whatever, and they say, you know what?

I know who I am now, but I didn't
have the language or the words,

you know, when I was younger to
accurately describe it or identify it.

I feel like that's what this movie went
through in 92 or 91 or whatever, when

they were filming it and writing it.

I don't think they had the
language to create what should

have been, in that space.

And now, because you gave it to people
who do have the language to speak to

what it is, it's a much better film.

And I'll be honest: I had to go
back and literally scan a bunch

of YouTube videos to, to remind me
of the original film and oh yeah.

Virginia Madsen.

Oh yeah.

That's what, oh, okay.

Now I'm back.

All right.

I'm good now.

And I really had to do
that and understand it.

Emmanuel: That's so wild to me because,
I was seven when I saw it, which is

way too fucking young, by the way...

Ben: That's way too young to internalize,
um, Tony Todd with bees for a chest.

Emmanuel: Everything about him...yeah....

The bees come out of his mouth.

You summon him by going in
the dark and like saying it in

front of the mirror, et cetera.

Like all of that was
very easy to understand.

I couldn't have told you like the
intricacies of the plot, but like

getting it as an idea, was crystal clear.

Jeremy: It's so interesting because
it's never felt so much the people who

created this movie watched the same
movie I did in the original Candyman

and have the same, like questions and
concerns about it because like they

address the fact that for some reason
in the original, almost all of the

victims that Candyman takes are black
people living in that same neighborhood

who have done nothing to earn his ire.

Ben: Yeah, he just picks them because
he needs to pick someone to further

the legend and perpetuate the story.

Jeremy: And beyond that, I think
I specifically said when we

were talking about it last time,
Candyman's got so much stuff.

What does he have?

So many things.

He has the candy, he has the hook,
he has the bees, he has all these

little like bits and pieces that
don't all make sense together.

And this movie solves that
problem, because it's like, "Yeah,

that's a bunch of different guys.

That's a bunch of horrible things that
happen to a bunch of different people.

And they've all been sort of mixed
together into this one, urban legend."

And like watching this
movie, I was spellbound.

Normally there's so many movies
for this podcast and half the time

I'm messing with my phone or I'm,
dealing with kids or something.

And this was just like the whole
movie I was just like, yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Ben: The line that made me feel like I'd
been punched with a brick is when Burke

says "Candyman is how we deal with what
happened and that it's still happening."

Emily: Yeah.

Jeremy: Yeah.

I think like the two people who are
definitely the main characters of

this movie, Anthony and Brianna get
a lot of the good like acting of it.

But Burke (Colman Domingo)
gets all the good lines.

Ben: Coleman Domingo is incredible.

Jeremy: He drops that one and he
also drops the "They love what

we make, but they don't love us."

Yeah.

That was the one that I was
watching and I was like...

Emily: Ooh, that was good!

Ben: Everything Colman Domingo
does, like every scene.

He is sublime in this film.

Emily: Yeah.

Jeremy: Yeah.

He comes out of left field too.

Like you don't realize he's going
to be as big a part of it as he is.

He's just the old man that's
there to deliver, mythology and...

Ben: I thought he was
Friendly Exposition Man.

But no.

Emmanuel: I watched this with my wife
does not usually do horror, and we talked

about how it feels like it follows because
the way that Candyman appears, when we

first see him, he is only in reflections,
like he can't be perceived like dead on.

I don't know about you, but the
camera kept doing weird things

where it would shift into place.

I'm like, are they trying to
frame something in the background?

Like that dark hallway is
dark, there's a mirror there.

I kept wondering if he's going
to appear in a scene that I'm not

picking up on almost like a Tyler
Durden foreshadowing kind of thing.

And that's what I was
watching for half the time.

It was just like, I know he's in the
background of the scene somewhere.

I don't see him, but like
a Magic Eye poster.

He's there...

Jeremy: There's the scene in the
art critic's house where like

he's been having this horrible
hallucination of himself as Candyman.

And she opens the door, breaks
the hallucination and he's talking

to her and her mirror is in
the deep background behind her.

And you can see Candyman's coat,
like reflected in the mirror.

I didn't even notice it until he moved.

Uh, So do we want to jump into the recap?

Ben: Uh, we start with the introduction
of two characters who I immediately

have in my notes: please don't let
there be a bury your gays in this movie.

Jeremy: Well, we start
in Cabrini-Green in 1977.

So before the original Candyman, and we
have a young Burke walking around in

the heavily policed, Cabrini-Green, he
is going to do laundry for his family.

And he goes down into this laundry room
and, you know, the cops are there, they

ask him, they're showing posters around
with some guy they're looking for.

And he goes down into the basement
of this place to do laundry.

And if you've seen the original Candyman,
the appearance of this giant hole in

the wall behind him is like immediately.

I was like, oh no.

Oh no!

Ben: That should set
off all the red flags.

If you know how this movie
treats holes in the walls.

Yeah.

Emily: Like either way, it's like
a big yawning maw no matter what.

It's not as literally a yawning maw
as it is in the original movie, but

Emmanuel: A whole lot like that.

Morgan: Yeah.

And then the original movie too,
they have the, like the bathroom

mirror that actually did as a
gateway for Candyman as well.

Which is based on an actual
crime in Cabrini-Green!

Emily: Yes, that's true.

Morgan: Where a woman um, Ruthie
was murdered because the criminal

basically came through the bathroom
mirror in the medicine cabinet

and climbed in and killed her.

And they actually drew inspiration
from that, from the original Candyman.

Ben: Yeah.

What this movie preserves really
well from the original was just the

sense of Candyman as inescapable.

Especially in the way that
I Candyman is just slow and

methodical and is in no rush.

Even compared to you know, Michael
and Jason don't run, but they're

still after you in a way that Candyman
isn't because he doesn't have to be.

Jeremy: First time we see him in the
original, he's just standing there and

he's just standing in the parking garage.

Ben: He's just being Sexy-ass Tony Todd
in a parking garage, which again, to this

day, if I just was in a parking garage and
I turned the corner and there was Sexy-ass

Tony Todd saying a bunch of mystic shit.

Emily: In that coat?

Ben: Look, I don't know how I'd react.

Morgan: Everyone's don't
say "candyman" five times.

And I'm like, look, if Tony Todd is
going to show up in my bedroom, if I say

Candyman five times, I'm going to do it.

I'm just saying

Aaron: Safe words.

Critical.

We need to have safe words.

Emily: Yeah.

What is the Candyman safe word?

Like?

I think there should be one.

Aaron: Insulin.

I don't know.

Jeremy: So yeah, we,
um, he's doing laundry.

We get him emerging back up into
the hallway and he's just getting

ready to walk back up the stairs.

Nothing bad is happening until a piece
of candy just falls to the ground behind

him and he stops to pick it up and he
looks back to the hole and somebody is

emerging from the hole and he screams.

And then we cut to the present
as the police come running

Ben: Somebody in a big, cool
jacket and a hook for a hand.

Emily: But it's not the same.

It's not the Tony Todd.

Jeremy: We won't really see
that so much until later.

Morgan: And we have that
cool opening credits.

We're looking up through the clouds at
the buildings, which is a reflection

of the original opening credit scene
where we're looking down at the city.

Ben: Oh.

So just all those views of Chicago
from like reverse, are just

crazy cool and other worldly.

Aaron: If nothing else, the
visuals of this film are amazing.

Just the coloring and everything.

I was really caught by that.

I did have to rewind a couple of times
because I probably wasn't paying attention

to what was happening in the scene because
I was focused so much on the visual

and I had to go back and look at it.

I'm like, I don't know,
is this my television?

Or is this actually the
what's happening here?

Emmanuel: All of this seems like
the color composition is great, but

also like people's hair and clothes.

Like everyone just looks,

Jeremy: I love Jordan's like directing in
Us and in Get Out, but Nia DaCosta frames

these scenes in such a way that like,
there's so much happening in like the deep

background and far foreground of scenes
that it's just it's so beautifully put

together in a way that like, I don't think
I would ever think to do these things.

Emily: Everything is so arti
- yes - it's artistically framed.

And all the settings have
character, all of them.

Yeah.

Every hallway, every door,
even the outdoor settings,

everything has character.

And also like the outside, whenever
they're out there's always like that sound

of sirens, which is amplified whenever
they're talking about something upsetting.

And so

Ben: When Anthony is staring at the church
and is out sitting on the grass, like

God, like location's just so powerful.

Morgan: The church, it's a real
location that was actually gentrified.

It's called the Northside Stranger's
Home [Missionary] Baptist Church.

And it used to have this beautiful
mural called "All of Mankind",

by the artist William Walker, and
it got gentrified and was bought,

and it was literally whitewashed.

Like they painted over it.

Emily: Okay.

So that's like a real...

Morgan: Yeah.

So this is a real thing
that actually happened.

So it was a very powerful
symbol of have in the film.

Cause it's showing the result of
whitewashing and covering up this mural

by this black artist about just peace
and harmony and they just destroyed it.

Emily: Yeah.

Because in the movie, the church appears
as a sort of monolithic white building.

Yeah.

And then the, he Tony, the main character
has a uh, a picture of it from before.

Morgan: Yeah.

That was the original.

Emily: Wow.

I didn't know that

Morgan: Yeah, because he's
a, it was a famous muralist

and the seventies and stuff.

Emily: Yeah.

And our story begins in 1977.

And then we moved to 2019, which
I think is interesting that

they specified it was 2019.

Jeremy: And I think it was probably
2019 when they started working.

Oh, it's the present?

Not realizing it would be another
two years before it would come out.

Yeah.

Emily: But I figure they're also making up
for the fact that nobody's wearing masks.

Jeremy: Yeah so yeah, we tend to
modern day Chicago where we're going

to a dinner party with Troy Cartwright
played by Nathan Stewart-Jarrett

and his new boyfriend, Grady
Greenberg played by Kyle Kaminsky.

And they are coming to a party with
Troy's sister, Brianna, who's played

by Teyonah Parris, and her artist
boyfriend, Anthony McCoy who's

played by Yahya Abdul-Mateen II.

And yeah, this is our main
cast for most of this movie.

This is who we'll be dealing
with other than we'll meet some

mysterious people a little later on.

You were mentioning, Ben, that there is,
there's not a "bury the gays" trope here.

Ben: Yes.

Well, The one thing I will say, like
who the fuck goes to a dinner party

is like, want to hear a scary story?

Like if I was at a dinner party
and someone said to me, and was

like, you wanna hear a ghost...?

Emily: Like their family.

It's only the four of them, their family
I could see Troy also has personality.

So...

Morgan: I am totally, the person would go
to a dinner party and be like, Hey, you

guys want to hear a really scary story?

Emily: Troy has a really great
line later about "No, dick in

the world is enough to offset a
demonology hobby," and I'm like...

Ben: He says that, but
may I offer in return?

Yahya Abdul-Mateen II?

Yeah.

Aaron: Lotta dick talk.

Ben: We meet Troy's sister Brianna.

It was played by Teyonah Parris.

She is one of our main
characters in this movie.

She is Anthony's girlfriend.

And the director of the art
gallery that he's displayed in...

Emily: Clive....

Aaron: I just kept calling her Monica.

Emmanuel: I need to know more
about like, just her wardrobing

and every scene is incredible.

At one point she switches over to
French, effortlessly, and we know

that there's some trauma there that
they address later in the movie, but

we don't get too much more about her.

Just like, there's something
going on with her too.

Yeah.

Jeremy: So at the party Troy tells
the story of Helen Lyle a woman who

cut off the head of a Doberman,
started a killing spree, broke out of

a mental institution, and then tried
to sacrifice a baby in a bonfire.

The story is animated in this amazing,
like paper puppets style that they

use to do a lot of the like historical
violence in this really incredible.

Emily: That's.

Some uh, Kentridge and Kara Walker.

Very close to their
their particular styles.

I'll talk about them when we do
recommendations, but I think it's

William Kentridge, south African artist.

Let me double check because if
I am wrong, then I'm going to

be very disappointed in myself.

Morgan: The effects were
all practical too right?

The paper cutouts.

I believe that was all practical.

Emily: Yeah.

Jeremy: They do basically like
a demo of it in the first scene,

they showed the kid doing it on the
bigger screen in his living room.

It's really interesting to me cause I
don't know how many people bought it and

watched a bunch of the special features
and stuff because I literally watched the

whole movie and then just went through
all the special features afterwards.

But they talk about that like part of
the reason they did this is how since

get out has come out there's been this
rush of capitalizing on black trauma and

horror and how like they were trying to
find a way to make this black trauma part

of the story and important and something
that, we would know about in the story

without making everybody, all the black
people, watching it, relive this again.

In the way that so many of these, I
think people have pointed out that

the show Them very pointedly displays
all of their, all of the black drama,

all the horrible things that happened
with racism, they just really want to

go into great detail in that that show
to show everything and as almost like

Passion of the Christ level of detail.

This was done specifically to do
the opposite of that, to include

it in the story without making
everybody reliving it yet again.

Emmanuel: And it's still affecting
an unsettling, again, it is a great

medium for storytelling and it gets
it all of the horror of each of the

events without, as you said, like
being exploitive or gratuitous.

Emily: And it's within theme with the fine
art, this is a big, especially like Kara

Walker's silhouette work and the fact that
Anthony is a painter and also we have this

fine art gentrification element because we
have this dichotomy of what gentrification

-where it really comes from.

And this, the artists being
blamed for gentrification.

Ben: Oh man, that speech of this white
woman blaming this black man for the

gentrification of the community, he was in

Emily: She's like"Your kind...".

Ben: Fuck.

Emily: Yeah.

Which, and he's "Excuse me?"

And she's..

Aaron: At one point I was disappointed.

I was like wait, they're going to let
her sashay away and get away with that?

Hold on.

There's gotta be at some
point when we come back and we

reconcile, it's oh, there it is.

Okay.

Nevermind.

There it is.

All right.

I stand corrected.

Ben: I thought this movie did raise
some interesting points about the

cycles of gentrification and the way
like the economic powers that be drive

a cycle of poverty, exploitation and
redevelopment for like themselves when

reaping more and more at every turn.

But yeah, no for that movie, for that
particular character to boil it down

to "artists create gentrification."

Yeah, with such a reverse
galaxy brain of a take.

Aaron: I thought this is just
another example of the very

short-term memory that racists have.

I know when it comes to, the horrible
things you've done, and wanting

to change the narrative around
it, at some point I was like okay.

We see that again.

And I said, then I started in
my head raging against critical

race theory, and I had to pull
back and go back into the movie.

Emily: Yeah.

It's classic scapegoating.

And then she tries to turn around,
but that's just because his artwork

becomes notorious because it's involved
in a crime, which is also mentioned.

But anyway, we'll get into.

Jeremy: Yeah, we're not quite done
that yet because we mentioned the

shadow puppet bit here, and I think
it's really interesting to me that

it's such a smart thing that what we're
seeing is a urban legend-ized version

of the story of the original Candyman
that it's been, through telephone.

Helen has turned into, this
monster who did all this stuff,

and the Candyman has been erased
from his own story at this point.

Ben: This movie knows that the
themes of the Candyman franchise

have to be centered around the urban
legend mythmaking of American black

communities, like specifically Chicago.

I just love the way the movie puts
the, that theme of mythmaking in

the community, front and center.

Emily: It's not just in the community,
it's also the idea of rewriting history is

there as well in this version of the film.

And then the idea of that like
mimetic story, which is so much

supposed to be the theme in the first
movie kind of effortlessly meshes

in with the all capital letters
stuff that this movie talks about.

The comparison between the last movie
and this movie as being this identity

crisis of not having the vocabulary
to describe itself is really astute.

I think because it was almost like a
relief watching this movie cause I'm like,

Ben: Just so many moments like when
Bri's White coworker tells Anthony

that trauma on the South Side is
played out and you just change your

trauma to a more interesting location.

Emily: We don't want to get political...

Ben: Your trauma's passe, make
it a more interesting trauma.

Jeremy: This movie almost interacts
with the first movie, the way that the

first movie interacts with the Clive
Barker story of like, oh, here's the

thing, but let's make it different
and better and more interesting.

Emmanuel: It's like a game of telephone
where each is building on the last.

I know Emily mentioned
the whole mimetic quality.

I think it's interesting that the
story seems like it's pushing at

the bounds of Cabrini-Green because
it ends up at that high school

with the girls in the bathroom.

And I wonder if there's a version of
this story where it exits Chicago,

like you get Candyman elsewhere,
it just sort of propagates the

way, a meme or urban legend might.

Jeremy: They also discuss how all of
this happened at Cabrini-Green, which

is a nearby neighborhood, which these
towers have been knocked down and

they've been replaced by these, new
developments, these high rise towers

with expensive condos and apartments.

Very much like the ones that
they're in right now in this story.

And this story inspires and
interests Anthony so much because

he's looking for a new muse.

He's looking for something to do with
art and he feels like he's stagnant.

So he decides to investigate
the remains of the now closed

row houses of Cabrini-Green.

And he's immediately stung by
a bee, which he thinks sucks

cause he gets stung by a bee.

All of us immediately who've seen
the first movie are like, "Oh bees!

Argghh!"

it starts out as a bee sting
and very quickly turns into

his entire hand and then arm.

And then that whole side of
his body started to fall apart.

Ben: That is the source of the
rotting ass, necrotized hand.

Aaron: I have to ask.

At what point do you look down at your
hand and realize gangrene has set in

and decide "Nah, I'll just wrap it up."

Emily: Before that...

Emmanuel: He doesn't have healthcare

Morgan: Healthcare is expensive.

Aaron: I look up some
Obamacare or something.

I don't know.

He's got something's going on
and he's picking away at it and..

Emmanuel: Hit it with peroxides and..

Neosporin or, just a little,

Ben: I feel like it went from
"Zero" to "My hand is nothing

but necrotized flesh" so quickly.

I'm just spending the whole time, I'm
like, fuckin' get to a doctor, man.

Free clinic, like all
emergency room this shit.

This is not okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Jeremy: Finally decides to go to
the doctor after he slowly picks

off his rotting fingernails.

Aaron: only scene I had to look away from,

Morgan: I would say working in a
hospital we definitely get people who

come in who have stuff that's like
even more serious and they just...

We're like, why did you not
come in like a week ago?

Why did you wait until listen to septic?

Emily: Yeah, I dunno if aloe vera is
going to make it not septic though.

That's just...

Ben: Hey, what if you were allergic
to bee stings, but in a weird way?

Emily: I think it's just
cause it's a cursed bee.

I want to see the story about the
cursed bees, like coming back and

killing all the murder hornets.

Emmanuel: You want Bee Movie, but Candyman

Emily: Except there's no humans.

It's just like the regular
honey bees are dying out.

And so they have to like summon
the cursed bees and kill all the

invasive species of the murder hornet.

Ben: I want to meet the like Mysterious
Exposition Man who makes honey

out of the Candyman bees and sells
this clearly cursed-ass honey at

like, the Chicago Farmer's Market.

Emmanuel: But it's delicious

.
Jeremy: Are you talking about using
murder hornets as an a species

coming from outside as a metaphor
for gentrification in Chicago?

I feel like there's something there.

Emily: Yeah, no, that's, that
is what I'm saying is, we're all

pissed off about invasive species.

Emmanuel: These have such a bad rap.

Morgan: What was Brianna's line?

It was something like "White people
built the ghetto then erased it when

they realized they built the ghetto."

Yes.

Was such a great line.

Jeremy: Alicia would not watch
this movie, Candyman scares her.

But she was in the other room and heard
this conversation and she was like,

are they talking about red lining?

She's she's a big
#HousingDiscriminationInEverything person.

Ben: Yeah.

That's very

Emily: valid.

Yeah.

Any story about gentrification?

Yeah.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Anthony pokes around these abandoned
row houses, full of graffiti and scary

pictures some of which are of Helen.

And he just barely dodges the cops
who are hanging around out there.

And then he meets William Burke,
who's played by Colman Domingo,

who runs the local laundromat.

Burke tells him the story of Helen Lyle
and how that actually connects to a story

that's almost been forgotten of Candyman.

And we learned the Burke is
the kid from the original

story at the beginning of this.

And that his first experience with
the Candyman was with a guy called

Sherman Fields, who is a disabled
man with a hook for a hand who

was handing out candy to the kids.

And then when some white girl got
a razorblade in a piece of candy,

they pointed the finger at Sherman
and all the cops came down hard

on Cabrini-Green, looking for
him, and he hid inside the walls.

And it is to some extent Burke's fault.

He saw Sherman there at the beginning of
this, that it was Sherman and not the,

traditional Candyman that we've seen.

And that he in screaming, alerted the
police to that this guy had been hiding

in the walls and they came down and beat
him to death there in front of them.

Ben: I find it interesting that the
crime that he is accused of is that

razorblades in the Halloween candy.

That itself is such an urban legend and
such a, I, as far as I know, there's

not any real documented cases of that
happening, and yet it's such a believable

mass hysteria that we're still hearing
about it and taking it into account like

decades later, like year after year.

Maybe there is more to it.

I am not going out on this like definitive
position of there has never been a case

of razorblades in Halloween candy ever.

Emily: I am looking that up right now.

Jeremy: My parents for several years
when I was younger, when we would go

out on Halloween, had it as part of
their like regimented thing that after

we came home with our candy, they
would go through all of them and make

sure that they had not been tampered
with before we realized anything.

Ben: But yeah, like again, an urban
legend used to drive more urban legends.

Emmanuel: Th this poor white girl
got hurt because the like candy,

they show has a very obvious
razorblade sticking out of it.

And you wouldn't put it in your mouth

Emily: clear

sugar

Ben: Anthony gets cut by a razor
blade in the candy earlier.

And he can't open it
up without getting cut.

Did this girl eat it with
the rapper still on?!

That's the only explanation that
makes sense is that this white girl

ate that candy, wrapper and all,

Aaron: I was watching as he was
walking back up the stairs and

Burke, gets that look over his face.

And I was just like, oh yeah, there's
that Jordan Peele stare that, at least

one person has to get in every Jordan
Peele movie where he's just staring off

into the distance, but it was just like
why are you not moving what's happening?

Why he just, at that the whole time,
I was just waiting for a hook to come

back from around that corner and snatch
him up, but it turns out it didn't.

And so then I had asked myself later,
did Burke, did they fashion Burke

until the reverse magical Negro?

Ben: That he uses negative wisdom to
lead our also protagonist to ruin?

Morgan: Yeah, I like that.

Aaron: You expect someone, the
magical Negro to come out of

nowhere and give you all this.

The blessed advice that leads you
on that path to redemption and

all that other stuff, that the
William will Smith in that film,

Emmanuel: It sounds like a
racial epithet, by the way.

Ben: I feel like if anyone was called"a
Bagger Vance" you have every right to be

like, you have every right to be offended.

Oh my God.

Aaron: I feel like Burke was like
we're gonna flip this on his head

and we're going to, yeah, we're
going to give you some sage advice

that's going to get everyone killed.

Morgan: One of the things I like
when Burke is telling the story

and says the police swarmed them.

At the end, he also refers to
the police as this swarm, he

says, "Here comes the swarm.".

So it's interesting that like a swarm
killed both the original Candyman

and then this version of Candyman as
well, only this time, it's the police.

Ben: That, that language is used
because don't they use to describe

all the other black men that have
been killed, fulfilling the imagery

of Candyman don't they refer to that
collective as the hive at one point?

Emmanuel: Yeah.

I think.

Or something like that.

Jeremy: So we get Anthony is fascinated
by the story, he starts painting

more excitedly like a man possessed.

He gets it, he makes this whole painting
of Sherman's death, which he's very

excited to, to show to Brianna and he's,
he wants to make a whole exhibition out

of this for the summer show where he's
not been sure what he's going to show.

This is the point where, when he's
talking about the Candyman myth with

Brianna, Anthony looks in the mirror
and says Candyman five times which if

having seen the original that's when
shit starts to go wrong, like even if

he doesn't show up right away, which you
can see him in the window at that point.

If you look closely enough, you can see
the jacket in the window in the reflection

He bases the exhibition on Candyman and
he calls it, "Say My Name" and includes

instructions for how to summon Candyman
in the description of the piece which

is then insulted by the gallery manager.

As well as the critic who we talked
about, who talks down to him and

tells him that "his kind- artists"
are the pioneers of gentrification and

everybody other than Brianna is just
basically shitty to him about this.

He gets drunk and storms off and says
shit to everybody on the way out.

Ben: I do want to point out just the
amazing exchange he has with the white

gallery owner, where he says, I think
he saw the thought of shouldn't you be

stocking up on plan B to fund your summer.

That whole moment was like comedic.

Incredible.

Aaron: I love his south self-affirmation
was I can take being called a bitch.

Like I can take it.

I'm like, wow.

Is that where you're?

Okay I guess that's what you do.

Emily: Yeah, I was really busy enjoying
this movie until the scene came up and

then I started having to write shit down.

Cause all of the things coming out of
everybody's mouth was so fucking genius.

I also wrote down his whole artist
statement, which is a, 'I'm trying

to align these movie moments in
time that exists in the same place.

The idea is to almost calibrate
tragedy into a focus lineage

that culminates in the now."

Ben: Which that's not the movie...

that's holy shit.

Emily: And so his piece.

That he has you say that you can say
Candyman in the mirror it's basically

a, it looks just like a mirror, but
you open it up like a medicine cabinet.

And it has these images of
violence that he's painted inside.

And people are insulting him
saying that he's like, where

did you find those paintings?

Were they in like a thrift store?

Because his style is very like simplistic.

I say simplistic, but it's, it's
not meant as a dig, it's iconic.

Ben: Yeah.

Seeing them not like his exhibit further
affirmed my belief that I don't understand

how the fuck fine art is s'posed to work.

Emily: It's all subjective.

And it all depends on who's doing what and
it's trends and it's, it's bullshit, but

Jeremy: it's been gentrified.

Morgan: Yeah.

Emily: And that's the thing, is it all
relies on critics to say, what is good.

And then people are
like, oh yeah, I agree.

Because I don't know what
kind of opinion to have.

Jeremy: I do want to talk for a
minute about the name of the piece

that it is called "Say My Name" and
it is such a clear reference to.

These things that are ongoing now
this this call to to say the names of

people who have been unjustly murdered
by police and, in other cases just

haven't had justice for these killings
and how closely this movie aligns that

to this overwhelming pain that, that
creates this monster of the Candyman.

Ben: I feel like though in the real world,
if someone saw that piece out, "Say My

Name", at least one person's response out
loud would have been like the TLC song?

Emmanuel: Wasn't there a trailer
that used to Destiny's Child?

Like, yeah.

And that's where my mind

Ben: went.

It was like, oh yes.

Oh yes.

Not TLC.

Yes.

Destiny's child.

Yes.

My bad, yes and they used it,
but I just thought it's just

such an iconic song title.

You wouldn't think someone
would've meant product

Emmanuel: A wink and a nudge I think.

Jeremy: After everything closes down
Clive and Jerrica are hanging around

talking shit about both Anthony and
Brianna and how Brianna was going

to get fired and so on and so forth.

And finally they decided to
fuck around and summon Candyman.

And this is where we get the first, like
real Candyman murders in this movie.

And they are amazing because the
rules of Candyman in this are that

you can only see him in the mirror,
but he is affecting the real world.

Ben: I love it.

I love that concept.

He kills Jerrica first.

And just for a little bit, just
leaves Clive freaking the fuck out.

Is this real?

Jeremy: I adored the bit where like
he can see Candyman in the mirror

as he is cutting the fabric that
like they're replaying the clip on.

So you can see the screen ripping
with no indicated purposes or why is

ripping until he looks in the mirror
and you can see Candyman cutting

it with this hook in the mirror.

And then he tries to run for the door
and gets dragged back by the leg by

some invisible force and a is then
slashed, open and left there for

poor Briana to find the next morning.

Emily: It's so

it's such a great, like it's not
campy, but like it was just brilliant.

And I think we got to
nod to velvet buzzsaw.

As well as this movie for showing
us that art galleries are really

great horror movie settings.

Ben: Yeah.

Always kill people in art galleries.

Emily: Who knows?

That could be

Jeremy: part of it.

That's a twofer, you kill it.

You make art, it's killing two birds with
one stone and then displaying the stone.

Okay.

Uh, So we cut to, Brianna
discovering them the next morning,

Anthony hears the news report.

And he's excited about the fact
that they say the name of his

piece and his name on the TV.

Ben: Troy's reaction is incredible.

Emily: It's such a true crime mood though.

Like Clive was an asshole.

It sucks for his his
like 18 year old intern.

But if she was that,

Emmanuel: I was gonna say, I
don't wish ill on anyone, but if

I can deliver just an absolutely
devastating insult and then you die.

A dope thing for me.

Jeremy: Poor Brianna at this point
has a nightmare about finding the

bodies, which is tied into the PTSD
of watching her mental ill father jump

out a window and commit suicide in
front of her, which is it's that is

the roughest part of the movie for me.

Ben: But I think what's, worse
are his last words to her.

"Did you know, your dad could fly?"

Aaron: I thought one of the most brilliant
turns, cause I have to be honest, there

was a point where I'm just like, Brianna
is too good for this man because he

on multiple occasions was a full blown
asshole to her that I couldn't quite

understand why, other than how good
the dick must've been as was said by

Troy, but I couldn't quite understand
why she was putting up with that.

And then you get that scene and then
you get Troy's statement later and

I'm like, okay, now it's all tracking.

The common thought: you marry
the man the most like your dad

or something to that effect.

So I'm thinking, okay she's out
here looking for these damages

because I gotta be honest.

At first I thought Troy was a little
bit of an asshole, cause he kept harping

and I'm like, this guy seems great.

Why are you harping on him?

I'm just like, okay, now I get it.

He's probably sat by and watched
his sister go from damage to

damage, gaining nothing for herself,
but supporting someone else.

And it all came full circle
to me and I got, and I'm like,

okay, now it makes sense.

I get this whole thread because
even then I wasn't sure.

That was an interesting scene for
Brianna's backstory, but I don't

understand how it connects to
everything, but then fight off all

the pieces fell in place for me.

And I'm like, okay, this is, I
don't know if you can actually call

this horror because I think this
is a little bit more than that.

I just felt like this sort of
stepped outside of the boundaries

of horror and actually told a story.

We keep talking about the relationship
between the 92, listen in 92, they just

wanted you to die in the bloodiest.

And at times, most comical way
that was going to get the most word

of mouth and get people in there.

I don't think they really cared about
the subtext or the, the emotional

baggage that each character had.

This, I think he gave you all of that and
more, and the pieces started to fall in

place as I was the longer I watched it.

I took me by surprise.

Jeremy: Yeah.

I would argue the emotional subtext and
the weirdness of the original Candyman

is part of why it doesn't have always
the same sort of a following that

something like something, abysmal like
Friday the 13th or something slightly

better, like Nightmare on Elm Street
that, does go in for the gross kills and

the most amount of blood possible that
I think that's, part of why Candyman

has continued to be an underground
favorite of peoples as opposed to, having

a new one that comes out every year.

But yeah, I think this is a really, it's
a really effecting scene and it's followed

up by one of the more disturbing scenes
because we get Anthony going to the

college library to dig up info on Helen
Lyle and he finds her old case recordings

from the first movie when she is studying
Candyman including the recordings of the

woman from the opening of the first movie
where she's telling the original story.

Ben: That was the right
amount of Helen Lyle okay.

Some archive footage,
some recorded dialogue.

I, I didn't need that characters showing
up as being like, I'm a competing ghost.

You now have to worry about it.

I was like,

Emily: it was the purpose.

Ben: Yeah.

It's she's there.

We acknowledge her.

Let's take two.

Let's stick to the themes here
and saying this ain't her story.

Any fucking more?

Jeremy: Yeah.

While he's listening to this, he
gets into this creepy mirrored

all the way around elevator.

Nope, absolutely not encounter with
the Candyman in the ceiling of the

elevator, which is incredibly creeping.

So

Ben: creepy this infinite
elevator, bad elevator design,

Morgan: like ahead.

And what if Candyman appeared
shouldn't be in the elevator obviously.

Jeremy: Yeah.

I think like the image of him looking up
at the ceiling and seeing like Candyman

reflected down on him is like, It's
incredibly done and it's very creepy.

And then you know they cut to the
elevator, finally reaching the ground

and then scrounging around on the floor
as all these college students get ready

to walk into the elevator and students
react, I think the way college students,

where they're all that was weird.

All right.

Ben: I did appreciate all the
students being like where at the

library at whatever time it is.

We don't have the energy be
dealing with a foot, whatever

the fuck you're dealing with.

We got papers that are due.

Emily: Yeah.

It's college.

If someone's like fallen down in
the elevator, it's yeah, ithappens.

We've all

Morgan: been

Jeremy: there.

Yeah.

He goes back, he's continuing to
paint and stuff like a madman.

Brianna is, you know, trying to
set up this dinner with a big time.

Art collectors coming into town.

Who's going to want to possibly make
her an offer to, to work with him

or at least make some introductions.

And he gets a call from somebody and
runs out and turns out he's going to

meet the same critic we met earlier,
who really wants to interview him about

his piece now after just completely
reaming him about it at the actual

exhibition, she is now writing some
big piece that includes not just.

The piece itself, but all of the murder
and everything is tying it back around.

And as he points out to her, she
wants to be a part of the story.

And dares her to, if she really wants
to be a part of the story to do it,

to say his name in the mirror, I

Ben: feel like this movie was wise
not to spend too much time on it.

Cause it would have made the
movie like bloated, but I feel

like there's just enough of that.

Like just this undercurrent, like
low-key like, it's just an afterthought,

but it's there of just this real
condemnation of the true crime genre.

And I was like, Ooh,
people have been dead.

Now we're interested in to now
we're interested in a story of this

systemic issue now that there's
a gruesome, sexy white people

that got murdered to go with it.

Yeah.

Emily: Yeah.

And that's even mentioned
by Burke at some point.

It might be after the initial exposition.

Aaron: Yeah.

Talking about Girl X and such,
no one hears about nor remembers

but you let a white person die,
and the whole country shuts down.

Emmanuel: Love that detailed the
grounding, this arguably fictional like

mythos in these actual Cabrini-Green
stories of this is a crime that happened.

And this is a thing that like
we're blending the two together.

So you can't really tell where
one ends and the other begins.

Like I loved that.

Jeremy: Yeah.

What I love in this scene is, after
she goes off to the bathroom and she is

summoning Candyman in the mirror he is
looking at her big hallway mirror after

he, he picks a chunk out of his hand.

He's, he wraps it in a dish towel
and then is looking at himself in the

mirror and sees himself as Candyman.

Emily: The, He could've wrapped
it in one of those Joseph Albers

paintings that have made them make
them a lot more exciting to look at.

Jeremy: Yeah.

The thing that gets me about that scene
is like him seeing the bee and trying

to touch the bee and the bee being on
the other side of the mirror glass,

which is that was a moment in the
movie where I was like, whoa, he just,

they just did some shit in this movie.

Emily: And then he sees his
reflection and his reflection is

Ben: candy.

I am such a sucker, anytime in any
movie, when someone looks in the mirror

and their reflection doesn't match what
they're doing, I fall for it every time.

And it always creeps me out,
like reflections, not doing what

reflections are supposed to will
always freak me the fuck out well

Morgan: And their movements too, in
that scene, were off-putt ing almost.

I know they worked with a movement
coach to make sure that their movements

matched, but I believe like coach also
had them, like, make the movements

slightly off putting like not normal

Emmanuel: posture was odd.

Like, it doesn't feel like a natural
position your body would take

Morgan: Exactly.

Jeremy: Yeah.

And I think one of the really interesting
details for me is my inclination would

be to use Tony Todd as frequently
as possible, but he has not heard

the story of Daniel Robitaille yet.

He only knows about Sherman
and that is who he's seeing.

It's the Candyman is, this
character that we are introduced

to early on in this movie.

And he's, this is the story he knows.

So this is who he's seeing.

And as you know more about it, it gets
more elaborate and has more faces.

Emily: Yeah, and the Tony Todd
is there and when he shows up?

Such good payoff.

Because we are introduced incrementally,
like from the present day back

to the origin of Candyman slowly.

But we're also at the same time, those
of us who've seen the original movie

recognized the slowly accumulating
references to that mythos, and then

it's interesting too, cause he looks
at his hand and his hand is fucked

up and that's where Brett and I were
like, he was a painter who lost his

hand, and I was seeing that symmetry
and I was like, oh, that's really good.

Jeremy: And he as a served by the
woman, walking back out of the bathroom

and is hallucination of Candyman
disappears, but this is the scene I

was talking about where there's him
in the foreground, looking at his

reflection in this mirror and it is
looking back at him and then her behind

him and then her bathroom behind her.

And you can see like the Candyman in the
reflection of her mirror in the bathroom.

And like he, he says, oh,
I have to go and leaves.

And like you see the
Candyman move in the mirror.

You might not have even like
seen that he was there before

and no sooner does he leave.

Then she comes out into the the front
room of her apartment and we see her

get lifted up off the ground and wiped
across the entire wall of the house.

The camera just pull
slowly out across Chicago.

Yeah.

Emily: And there's also something about
that hallway when he's going through

that hallway and he's accessing the the
doorbell or whatever that you can tell

that building has also been like super
gentrified because, the interiors is,

it's definitely built up from something
that was not quite art critic level and

the fact that this art critic is living
in this building and also has this whole

spiel about how artists bring it, like
gentrify the hood is fantastic irony.

Jeremy: So yeah, the hallways are all
curved, theoretically, I would think

because they used to be small single
units throughout there, and they've

knocked down the walls and they've had
to curve the hallways to you can fit

the larger fancy apartments in there
where they used to be a whole bunch

of like single unit family homes.

And they've made the whole
front side glass and everything.

So yeah, that, that whole
apartment is creepy as shit.

So he goes on to dinner where
Brianna is being courted by

multiple curators and art critics.

And they find out during the dinner
that this art critic has been murdered.

And Anthony runs out to go see Burke and

Ben: Nothing suspicious at all.

Just oh, people have been murdered.

I saw recently.

Jeremy: I have to leave!

Emily: This art guy...

Ben: Wildly out of the
restaurant because..

Jeremy: Nobody else knows that he
went to see her because he didn't

tell, he didn't tell Brianna
anything about where he was going.

Emily: This is definitely our
token old white asshole character

is there was one in the previous
movie, the old like professor,

that was just, why didn't he die?

Morgan: Oh, Candyman...

I already wrote about that five years ago.

Yeah.

Ben: I was going to say it's hard to be
quite as unlikable, Xander, Berkeley,

when he's given you the full Berk.

Once again, not a knock on Xander Berkeley
as an actor, just saying he's very

talented at playing unlikable characters.

Jeremy: Anthony goes to see Burke
and this is where we get the

exposition of the candy that the new
Candyman lore and Burke doesn't that

Candyman, isn't a man, he's a hive.

The first was Daniel Robitaille
from Helen and researched in

the, in the original movie.

But there are several others several black
men who have been killed unjustly and

incredibly violently in this same area.

And it has created this sort of
stain on the land and it, this

Candyman, isn't just a ghost.

He isn't just a guy that kills people.

He is the like manifestation
of the collective trauma of

this community over time.

And, he is he is important.

Yeah.

Emily: And this is where we get the line.

Candyman is the way we deal with the
fact that these things that happen

and that they are still happening.

Jeremy: Oh yeah.

It's I think this is the same
scene where he delivers the they

don't they love what we make.

They don't love us too,
which is just both.

Oh man.

Yeah.

So Anthony is trying to explain all
of this Candyman stuff to Brianna.

He is clearly freaking out.

She is freaking out looking at all these
paintings he's made of these grotesque

dead figures of all these previous men
who are part of the Candyman mythos.

They do slap

Emily: though, these new
paintings like they're fucking

Ben: cool.

Oh yeah, there they are.

Cool as hell.

They're

Morgan: scary.

I actually use the black artists to
create the paint, a Chicago artists

to create the paintings for them.

Emily: Yeah.

These are they're gorgeous,
like big impasto oil paintings

with some, it's the kind of

Morgan: actually all the
art in the art gallery.

They had local Chicago black
artists submit their work.

So the art gallery scene.

Yeah.

Aaron: I would wake up screaming out.

Those are those paintings everyday.

Cause they are just, they did
what they're supposed to do.

They were supposed to remind you of games.

There's no, I would not be able to unseat.

Looking at them like an abject fear.

Every time I walked into my house,

Jeremy: I feel as reasonably the way
Briana ran, she was like, what the fuck?

What the fuck is all of this?

And he's eh, I don't
think you should see this.

I don't think I should have done this.

I think this is a mistake.

And then he just started smashing mirrors.

She runs off to Troy's house to
tell them about all this shit.

And Troy tells her that he
told her not to date that crazy

broke Basquiat motherfucker.

Emily: Yeah, there, he has like
several things that he can like a

lot of comparisons, but the Basquiat
is the one that I wrote down.

Jeremy: Yeah.

They are doubtful.

The Candyman is real and, Troy
says "Who would even try that?"

And of course, we get flashed over to
the local high school where the high

school girl we saw at the art show is
asking her friends, if they've ever

heard of this Candyman thing, this girl

Emily: is dancing with death because not
only because she's has the audacity to

try to summon the Candyman but also she
kisses a school mirror with her mouth, no

Jeremy: lipstick on it.

And then, yeah.

And then kisses it with her mouth too.

I

Ben: did not realize until right now
that she was the girl at the art show.

I didn't know.

There was just, I did not.

Emmanuel: Yeah.

To white girls.

Emily: Yeah,

Jeremy: a lot of white girls
through their, to their credit.

This group of white girls,
doesn't all look the same.

It's a pretty diverse
group of white girls.

Ben: One of whom is an Asian
girl who fuckin' runs the fuck

out after the fourth candy man.

And I'm guessing she's going to end up
being the protagonist of the next candy

man revival like 15 years from now.

Emmanuel: You going to keep that
same energy like oh Candyman??

No.

I'm going to be out of town,

Morgan: I like how the one non-white
girl is the one who knows better.

Ben: We do get ours.

We do get arguably our one, no wait,
because we have the wonderful queer

representation of at least the wise queer
representation who don't die and manage

to just stay the fuck out of everyone's
a horror nonsense of Grady and Troy.

But we also possibly get a
little more queer representation

from one of these girls.

It just dies really quickly.

Jeremy: Yeah.

This is the same girl.

And one of the girls and the girls
tell them not to be not to be a vagina.

And she says why they're
a warm and wonderful

Ben: I'm taking that wonderful.

Hey, we were grasping
at straws on this show.

I'm taking it as some queer rep,
even if she is not a character

and dies within two minutes.

Emily: Yeah.

She's her name is Boof so I
think it's like, she's a Pokemon.

Jeremy: So like there's an extended
version of this scene in the special

features where it's, it becomes more
clear what's going on between them and

the black girl who walks in part of the
way through them, somebody in Candyman

and locks herself in the stall, which is
that they are watching a video that one

of them has taken of her from the party
the night before, where she got too drunk

and did something embarrassing and they
posted it online which is why they are

making fun of her before she gets in.

And then when she comes in on the
actual film, you definitely hear

them ask if she still has a hangover,
but like their conversation before.

The Candyman stuff starts is
extended in the deleted scene.

And some of it's still happens in
the background, but it's hard to

tell exactly what they're talking
about at the beginning of the scene.

Cause they're having a chat while the
girl is kissing the mirror background.

But yeah they, everybody about the
Asian girl goes ahead and finishes

out saying Candyman man five times and
nothing happens and they all decide

to leave, but then the door is locked
and they summarily get murdered.

One of the girls seems to see Candyman
in her little handheld mirror,

Emmanuel: Such a good detail,
like, the compact mirror.

It was like, it makes sense.

But it didn't occur to me, tiny mirror,
if you can show up, they're like.

Jeremy: Yeah she looks at it.

We don't see what she sees, but
she is clearly freaked out by it.

And one of the other girls runs
back around the corner and she's

no, I don't think you should.

And then next thing we see of her
is just a small waterfall of blood.

Yeah.

Aaron: That was weird.

That's that tension.

There was just enough space in
between her going around that corner.

And then the first couple of drops,
so blood and then everything else, it

was that tension ratcheted up for me.

My anxiety was flying out, cause I
was like clearly everyone's dead.

But in the back of my mind, I
was still thinking, just let

the girl in the toilet live.

Just let the girl on the toilet live.

She's not a part of this.

Ben: Say this.

Emily: Did she live?

I thought she did.

She does.

Aaron: Yeah.

She's got PTSD.

Ben: Oh, big time for sure.

PTSD.

If she didn't have a drinking problem
before it's not looking good for her.

Now

Aaron: she just go straight to rehab.

Yeah.

Jeremy: Cause she, she sees some of
what's actually going on in the compact

mirror when it falls on the floor,

Ben: After the first girl is killed
and the blood goes from like a light

trickle to just I'll call on gushing.

Aaron: Yes.

That caught me off guard.

And then the other girl cry, there was
one point it's, shouldn't be funny.

I don't know why it was funny
to me, but of the main Regina,

George like trying to get away.

I'm like, where are you going?

Just accept your death.

You're not, you can barely move.

No one's coming for you.

What'd you think, Toilet Girl's
going to come save you now?

She's hung over.

Emily: I wonder if you can resist Candyman
if you're wearing like a beekeeper outfit.

Probably not.

Jeremy: Yeah.

I don't think so.

So we, we get back there and Anthony
finally decided for his talking and his

fucked up enough that he can finally
go to the fucking hospital for it

because it's literally falling apart.

His fucking fingernails slides off in his
hand and he's maybe I should go to the

Morgan: doctor.

Yeah.

Jeremy: I watched this whole
movie mostly in the dark and

that was fine for all of it.

And that was the one bit
that I was like no, no stop.

Ben: No, that it's when he's in
the art critic's department and

he starts peeling his skin and
it's a way too much, too deep.

And then.

What happens in the church?

Emily: That thing is like jar
lid size on his hand already.

I don't know how anybody
could have not smelled.

Jeremy: I'm a hundred percent with the
girl who's next to him at the dinner

who like sees him picking at his hand.

And she's maybe don't
you shouldn't do that.

So Anthony finally is at the hospital and
the woman, the nurses, Hey, welcome back.

And he doesn't know what the
fuck she's talking about.

And he's oh, I saw in your
file that you were born here.

And he's no, I was born on the south side.

And he's she's ah, no, you were born here.

It's right here in your record.

And so he decides that he's
going to go talk to his mom.

And this is where we get
to re meet Vanessa E.

Williams, who was the mom from
the original movie who has.

It's been 30 years and
she has not aged 30 years.

It is

Ben: unfair.

She has gone from her
twenties to her thirties,

this is a scene where we are led to
believe that this man in his early

thirties is talking to his mother who
appears to be in her mid thirties.

There appears to be, there is
four years difference between

these two at most visits.

First,

if you told me that in
real life, Vanessa E.

Williams and Yahya Abdul-Mateen II were
dating, I'd be like good for both of them.

Jeremy: Yeah.

And she's not in this movie a whole
lot, but the little bit she is, she

really delivers because he is asking
her lots of leading questions and he's,

she's just fielding them sideways and
not answering what she knows is coming.

And he tells her what he's found out.

As soon as he says the name Candyman,
her reaction is she's like claps and

shakes a figure like that
combo that she does is so real

it's simultaneously like scary

Emmanuel: superstitious when she does it.

It's it's not just a shushing.

It's like a little ritual, the cancel
out whatever you just started looking.

Jeremy: She sells the
whole thing with her eyes.

She doesn't have to do all of that stuff
like to let you know, but she is clearly

not okay with that name being said and
actually tells us that specifically after.

Anthony, who is the baby from the
original Candyman was saved by Helen Lyle.

That like they all, everybody who was
there, they all decided that they were

not going to say that name anymore.

And that is how Candyman disappeared
and Helen's myth rose up to overtake it.

And that somebody, if he knows about
Candyman and somebody has broken that

pact man, and it's it's great delivery.

Like he, he doesn't know any of this.

He thinks he was born onthe South Side.

So obviously he is upset with all of this.

And she says, they were sure that
Candyman, wanted him for a purpose.

And he then goes back to Cabrini to
start looking for that purpose and

wanders into one of the row houses
where there's lights flashing.

And then we jump over to Brianna
who is awful looking for him.

He's not at home, he's not anywhere.

So she goes looking for him at the
laundromat that he has talked about,

Ben: such a good job of selling.

Just this sense of, I don't know
if it's more hopelessness or more

acceptance of after he has this
conversation with his mother and he

just trails off into Cabrini-Green.

Like he, he did.

He definitely knows at this
point that whatever Candyman

wants with him is inescapable.

There's no attempts to resist whatever
is happening to him after that.

Jeremy: Yeah.

It's going down one way or another.

Yeah she goes to the laundromat
and goes looking for him.

She finds his hat there and then
finds that she has been locked

inside the back in the laundromat.

We get another one of these great deep
shots where she's like trying to knock

on the door to get out of this back room
and we can see her behind the glass.

And we see somebody up front doing
their laundry that doesn't hear it.

Then we see Burke like rush in and
pull her off into the background.

And just as this person turns
around and sees nobody there

Ben: The horror with that, they
achieve with the deep shots in this

movie is so well done and such a
marker of visual style for this film.

Like I don't see this employed very often.

Nevermind so frequently.

And so effectively

Aaron: it does make you begin to
think shit is going on around me

everyday that I don't see that.

I'm not that I'm not aware of
someone just snatched what's going

it really does make you question your
environment, and the things that you

can miss, which again, ratchets up the
tension and the horror, because now

you're like, all right what was that?

No joke.

I was starting out maybe the
first 15 minutes of this movie.

Cause I decided to watch the movie.

All right.

If the movie is super scary,
sometimes I'll watch it upstairs

and a big open space or all the fun
things are that I'm not afraid of.

If I'm really into a movie, I'll watch
it downstairs and like the main room

with the big 75 inch and all that stuff.

So I was like, all right, let me just
lean into this and go downstairs.

Of course it's dark down
there and all that stuff.

And while I'm sitting there,
there's because it has been

raining a lot in the area.

My sump pump goes off and it
goes off at critical points.

And I swear I had to go
change clothes after that.

Cause I'm like, I was not prepared
for that random noise to come out

of the blue at a critical point.

It's like a thud, and then like
water, you hear spewing out the front.

I was like, I was not prepared.

I had to stop.

Nope.

Nope.

It's pull yourself together.

I then told Alexa to turn all
the lights on and that's how I

watched the rest of the movie.

So just say that may have happened.

Yes.

Emily: I don't watch these alone.

Aaron: That's not what I was thinking.

I really don't know
what I was thinking, but

Emily: the ability to
watch them with people.

So there's that,

Aaron: The dog was there and I do,
I will say there are certain points

where the dog chose to grow quite
viciously at the screen and things.

I think she was very invested in the, so

Jeremy: My dog was not a fan of
the soundtrack of this movie.

Like literally, as soon as that
the opening credits with the Ms.

Mysterious music over Chicago
came in and he was like peace out.

I'm going to be in the other room.

And so this is the point where we get
another flashback for Burke in which he

is being shut out by his older sister
who is playing a game in the other room.

And we hear her saying the name of
Candyman in the mirror and the other room.

And then he tries to rush into
be part of it and finds her

dead and lying against the door.

And then we get to a modern day Burke
who is knocked out Briana and tied her

up in the In the church so that she can
be witnessed to the new Candyman being

born because Anthony is falling apart.

Literally

Emily: I do have to say there's a bit with
the, in the flashback where Burke sees

Candyman in the mirror and he shushes, he
does the show with his hook which is good.

Aaron: Yeah.

That was the first killing of
the movie that really made me, I

felt sad for all the little girl.

Why?

Morgan: The only time
he kills a black person,

Aaron: I was just like, why?

That, just that scene confused me
because I was like, why are you idolizing

now the man that killed your sister?

I don't know.

I was trying to understand
that relationship there.

It took me a minute.

Yeah.

'cause

Jeremy: I think he goes to some lengths
to explain what the deal is with

him and Candyman in this, the scene
that follows that, which is that he

thinks that Candyman is important.

And as soon as they got rid of Candyman
and it was replaced with the myth of

this, white woman trying to burn a baby
that like all of the white people came

in and gentrified place and they knocked
down the towers and they took over.

So and I think to his mind and possibly,
to the movies, mind, Candyman is the

he is a ghost of sorts, but he is
also the protector of this place.

Who's, keeping out these other elements
that have chased them out of their homes.

He makes it clear that this, that
Candyman exists as a stain on this place

where this pain that you cannot get
out has just worn the whole place thin.

And that, he exists to embody
that rage and that pain and that,

he takes these many different
forms of these different people.

Who've been these different black men
who have been murdered here over time.

And in the process also sets up Anthony
to become the next one of those people

because he calls the cops and deliriously
tells them that he has seen that "Say My

Name" killer and that there is a, a hook
handed man running around threatening

people in the old bringing projects.

And he then saws off the, your
boy's hand and And then sticks a

full hook right into that open.

Ben: What gets me there is there's
no reaction that Anthony has when

his hands being cut off and then
just the tears with the no react

would no other facial expression
change when the hook is jammed in.

Oh, did that just give me the
heebie jeebies inside and out?

Emily: It was rough.

Although as like much there's as much,
the whole body horror thing was upsetting.

The idea of his like body being all
full of holes that are like a honeycomb,

I was like, yeah, I'm as good as.

Emmanuel: Awesome creature design.

Ben: I love that.

That was such, that I thought that
was such an interesting update to

the bees and the torso while it's
still being its own kind of different

interpretation of like beehive man.

And I know I talked about how good
Colman Domingo is, but fuck, after

this turn reveal that he is like
intentionally bringing about this to

bring back the myth and power of Candyman.

Like he is so good.

It's like when it's the same as when
an actor gets revealed as the killer

in Scream, and then their performance
instantly becomes like three times as

good cause they just get to chew scenery.

And he just goes from exposition
to like villain exposition.

And I can listen to it

Jeremy: all mad, like preacher
vibes up there and it's not just

cause he's standing at a pulpit.

Like he is deliriously yelling wide-eyed
and like completely believing in this.

Emmanuel: You can make

really make the story your own,
but some of the specifics should

be somewhat consistent decided to
yeah, this is like a jazz standard.

Like we can play with the idea
of Candyman, but there are

certain notes we have to hit
like the whole kids, one of them,

Ben: it reminded me a little of
Matrix: Resurrections in that we

just have Hey, we are bringing back
an old franchise to a certain new,

let's just confront that head on.

And especially in a story like Candyman,
where it is a story about stories, let's

just take that bull by the horns and what
it means to be rebooting this franchise

Jeremy: reviving.

That feel like there are thing Nia DaCosta
brought, there are some things that

you can't really tell where the Jordan
Peele and Nia DaCosta stuff splits.

And this feels very much
like a Jordan Peele thing.

Oh yeah, I'm going to straight
up say what I'm doing.

Yes, you I'm remaking Candyman.

We're doing it a little bit different
than what it was before, but we

got to hit some of the notes.

Like he's got to have a
hook, we got to do the bees.

That's gotta be there.

I recognize this.

And I'm gonna, I'm gonna
have the character say it.

Aaron: Yeah.

I love that it was a foregone conclusion
because it could have become something

that would extend the scene or just
again, make it seem bloated that it was

a foregone conclusion that the plan is
we're going to call the police on a black

man looking suspicious in the neighborhood
and they are going to shoot him.

So I'm going to get what I want.

It didn't even take any more
complicated, a plan than that from that

perspective, that he's just like it.

And it's just going to happen.

All we got to do is set the stage and make
a phone call and this is going to happen.

So then I still allowed myself to
be lulled into a sense of security

when we get to the scene where she's
holding him and he's literally laying

on the ground, like doing nothing.

And I'm like, all right We're good.

We're done.

Now.

He's going to have to figure out
what's going on with that hand and

get some, see a dermatologist or
something, but maybe he'll, he will

come out of this one,

Jeremy: a lot of dermatology,
Brianna breaks loose and runs off.

And Burke decides to chase
her down follows her through

this basement and attacks her.

She runs up out of the basement
and one of the other row houses.

And he comes in after her.

He, she tries to hit him with
a big piece of metal and is not

quite strong enough to pull it off.

So she grabs the fucking pen
out of her pocket and stabs

him to death with the pen.

Aaron: I see that

literally made me audibly laugh,
dropping that piece of metal and

then turning around what the fuck?

Ben: I love that, oh, that had to fight.

That's why I think as legitimately
scary as this movie is, and as

much as it like is, or at its best,
there are these tiny moments of a

physical comedy sprinkled through out.

Morgan: And he comes in
and he's I think he's dead.

Emily: Yeah.

Yeah.

And she's like stabbing the shit.

Like she's been she puts as
many holes in his face with

that pain that Anthony has from

the bees.

Morgan: Yeah.

She like more than double tap that shit.

She's final girl materials.

He knows you've got to hit
the killer more than once.

Aaron: With the laundromat pen, no less.

Emily: From his own laundromat,

Aaron: Look at that.

Full circle.

Emmanuel: I hope I never get
stabbed to death with my own merch.

Jeremy: Full circle.

The only way I want to go.

Yeah.

So you know, she is, she's holding him.

Anthony, comes in,
collapses into her arms.

And you hear the cops roll up
outside and the guy comes in

and she is begging him to help.

And the cop immediately tells her
to get get her arms up and then put

several bullets into Anthony before
trying to seek any sort of explanation.

Emily: Anthony

on the floor, by the way, I just
want to say he's like he is prone

Jeremy: They haul her out in
handcuffs and throw her in the back of

a truck.

Ben: My only question going into
that scene was are they going to kill

Brianna and Anthony or just Anthony?

I did.

I knew that I thought they shot here too,
but there was no point or even on the

ground, it was just like, Nope, there's
no way Anthony is making it out of this.

Jeremy: This final scene is beautiful
because she gets hauled in the back of

that car and left there for a few minutes.

And then one of the, police
comes in and says, all right,

this is what you're gonna say.

You're gonna say he made this
attempt to, to hurt my guy.

And he shot him necessarily.

Or, we're going to make
this really hard on you.

This is how it's going to happen.

And she says, she'll say whatever
he wants, she just wants to

see her self in the mirror.

And then it says Candyman five
times and Candyman shows up and

fucking slaughters everybody.

And he's just this like swarm of bees.

And he does this bit where after
he's killed the rest of the cops,

he walks around the cop car and
you can see his face is covered by

these bees, but his reflection is
each of the different murdered men

in the window as he walks around it.

As he gets to the front
the car unlocks itself.

And when the cop looks up, he is gone.

Ben: When Brianna summons Candyman,
just the relish and increased joy on her

face, we've every progressive Candyman,
which is, starts out so serious.

I'm by the end is just like elation
with the last time she summons.

And it's such a, because honestly like
this corrupt cop and her in this backseat

is some of those like sickeningly
horrifying moments because of like just

the horrifying, corrupt realness of it.

And to then immediately get the
catharsis of her just taking

back such power and doing it.

So with boot with bliss is the only
word I can think followed by just

that absolute fucking slaughter.

Morgan: Oh, I also liked that line
that a Candyman said as he's going

around where they will say I shed
innocent blood, you are far from

innocent that they'll say you were.

And compare that to the line in
the beginning of the first movie.

Where he says, they will say I
spilled innocent blood what's

blood for not for shedding.

Ben: I think it also just shows the
evolution of Candyman and that if 92

Candyman was most preoccupied with
perpetuating himself for his own say

20, 21, Candyman is clearly a spirit.

He is a spirit with a societal mission.

Jeremy: She runs, to chase
behind this cop who has run

off, who is trying to get away.

And she sees Candyman pickup
and slaughter this guy.

And he turns and looks at her
and it is Tony Todd's face.

And he says,"Tell everyone."

And that's the end of the movie.

Emmanuel: So what I loved about
that tell everyone, right?

Is you have Burke saying, now
we've got a witness when he like,

brings her into all this nonsense.

You have, the cops tried to
mess with her witness testimony.

And now she's like literally a witness.

Like I saw it happen.

I can tell you with my own
eyes, he messed everyone up.

I'm going to perpetuate this story.

This is fantastic.

Aaron: Yeah.

But now she's got nine dead cops on
the ground and she's in handcuffs.

Where do you go?

Where do you walk to the Starbucks
down the street and figure

out what your next move is?

I think you're screwed, basically.

Ben: There is a deleted alternate
ending where it takes place after this,

and it's just her having a gallery
dedicated entirely now to Candyman art.

Jeremy: Although like I get
wanting to end with the impact

of that, like, "Tell everyone."

Because the alternate ending she's
having an opening of all of his

art and it's all hanging around
and they're having a big party.

You don't really hear anybody,
but you just see how busy it is.

Everybody's there seeing the stuff.

And at the end of it as everybody
leaves, she walks up to the mirror.

And the last thing that happens
is there's this intake of breath.

Like she's about to say
something and then it cuts.

And I was like, they're both good.

Ben: I'm honestly torn about which
I personally like would end the

movie with, if I had to choose.

They're both really powerful.

Emily: I mean, I like the one that we
have now, because I feel like the more

questions you beg, just like, Aaron, you
talked about the, like, how does she get,

wait, how does she give what happened?

How did she get out of that?

Aaron: How do you explain that?

Cause I was thinking, I was remembering
when they were first putting her

into the back of the police car.

I had closed captions on,
so I was watching cause I'm

too lazy to turn them off.

But as you were coming out, the one cop
saying we don't know what to do now.

W where do we do it?

How do we, how do we, how do we fix it?

And I'm like, oh, okay.

So they're just going to take
it down from the beginning.

Ben: I'm going to say she probably just
got away by like, if no one knew she

was there specifically, if she just
ran the fuck away before any other cops

or people came around, who would know
that she was there in the first place?

Emily: Yeah, all the cops are gone
and I was thinking maybe the last, a

favor that Candyman did for her was
cut off her handcuffs with his hook.

Aaron: But her fingerprints were on the
big piece of metal that she couldn't lift.

Morgan: But if her fingerprints aren't
in the system, nobody's going to know

Ben: that's true.

Jeremy: And this bit on the credits,
which is all like, all the puppetry of

all the horrible things that happened
to all the men who make up Candyman..

That was spellbinding as well.

Like the whole credits thing I was
sitting there watching, I wasn't going

anywhere through throughout that.

Emmanuel: Again, they've
blended in nonfiction.

A couple of stories or
actual crimes that happened.

So it's blending of the fiction
of Candyman with the "Here are

actual atrocities that happened."

Y'know?

Racial violence and such.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Which I think has always, sort of, been
part of Candyman because if, because

of Cabrini-Green being included as the
setting and the fact that, you know, this

original idea of this Candyman murder
is taken directly from the headlines.

Morgan: Yeah.

Like Emmett till and George
Stinney and um, then James Byrd.

Emmanuel: Yeah.

Jeremy: But it's incredible.

I, I thought this whole
movie was incredible.

It was one of those that, like I said,
I watched it and then I watched all of

the special features, which there are
several like good, special features.

There's some stuff about the art.

There's some stuff about Nia DaCosta.

Like they have a sit down with
a whole bunch of folks who are

psychiatrists and then social work.

And Tananarive Due talking about
the history of black horror and

how this movie integrates the
actual horror into the story.

And yeah.

If you guys buy it and you have a
chance to watch the special features

they're definitely worth checking out.

Morgan: Yeah, I did watch that one.

Um, And do you have this really great
line about what this Candyman does is

reclaim trauma, to tell it in a way that
is soothing and healing and empowering.

And I really liked that.

To me, Get Out is like a film about black
trauma that's very traumatic to watch.

Whereas this is a film about black trauma,
whether it's like more cathartic to

watch, because you're seeing like these
black men who were killed, be able to

get revenge for what happened to them.

Yeah.

So it is in a way healing to
be able to watch this film.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Emily: Yeah.

Jeremy: So I feel like we have talked
about a lot of the concepts of things

that uh, And we usually talking about it
with our progressive stuff in this movie.

Specifically we talked a lot about race.

Is there anything anybody wanted
to say about the, you know, racial

and social justice issues that
come up in this movie that you feel

like you haven't covered already?

Aaron: I mean, There are a couple
of things that I thought were great.

So rarely do you get to see
a representation of people of

color that spans the experience.

So yeah, you have the situation in
the projects with Cabrini-Green,

but then you have the situation
where you have an accomplished art

dealer and all these other things.

I'm like, all right, we got to
see we, we got to see layers.

Of color, layers of experiences
all impacted by the same history,

and I think that was valid.

Also, I felt like Teyonah Parris's hair
was flawless and I think that was great.

Because that's not always something
that you see on black women and film.

Just...

may not be significant to others,
but I think it's significant to me.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Her hair, her makeup, her whole look
all the way through is, On point.

Aaron: I think it was flawless.

Those are the little things I often
talk about this when I'm on the

Talking Comics Podcast, I say this
a lot about books that I'm reading.

If you listened to me rant on all
last year about Far Sector, there

was a character called “Jo” Mullein
who was in the book Far Sector.

And one of the things I kept harping
on every time I brought that book

to the show was the way Jamal
Campbell, the artist, drew her.

He drew her with hair similar
to it in one scene to the way

that Brianna's hair is set up.

He drew her with a wider nose.

He drew her with a very
specific complexion.

He drew her, even though she was
wearing the form fitted green

lantern costume with wider hips.

And you knew who you knew you
were looking at a black character.

And my point was so often when you
see black characters in represented

in comics, it's really just a
white character with darker ink.

And that's how it's
demonstrated on the page.

So when another team draws that
character, that's exactly what she was.

It was a white character.

She was thinner.

She was more, this or hair
was a little bit different.

And so I always ping on
those types of things.

It just the simplest thing.

So when you see a black woman to get
her hair wet in a film and she comes

up and it's still straight, we're like,
no, that's not what happens and stop

lying to people because we all know
that's not what happens, but you're

creating this idealized world of...

No.

She's just, it's she's
glowing and she's glistening?

No!

She would have a full-blown
'Fro when she came out of that.

Just the reality of those types of things.

When I see them, they hit for me.

And so seeing that here, I think that hit
for me, is it just on a variety of levels.

It makes the movie a little bit more real.

I connect a little bit better
to it, but that's my rant.

Jeremy: And no, I definitely agree.

That is something I frequently
pick on in other comics.

The first story I ever did for
Marvel, which was the Misty

Knight and Danny Rand story.

The team who drew that is Japanese
and they got Misty in three different

hairstyles, all of them, correct.

So white guys who, live in the
U S you can make the effort,

you can figure it out, make

Aaron: it happen.

Exactly.

Look around your world.

Those sort of things matter to
people, it's, and it seems like such

a small thing to do that has such
big, that pays off in such dividends

that it will connect you to a product
connects you to a source of media.

Yeah.

Emily: As a woman, I could definitely
relate in that way to find a, someone, a

comic book, character that is realistic
looking and sounding and, does things.

Jeremy: Yeah.

I think, in, in particular, when you
look at this movie, it's clear that you

had people who knew how to deal with
black hair, people who knew how to do

makeup for a black woman, people who
knew how to light black people which is

often not the case, especially in horror
movies, which are often like, cheaply

made and, have one style of lighting
and that they go with for everything.

And this, I can't rave enough about
Nia DaCosta's directing in this

movie, the framing of shots and
the lighting and the way things

are put together is just so good.

There are so many scenes in this where
I was just like after the scene, I was

just like, wow wow, that was real good.

And not just the deep shots,
but especially the deep shots.

And the fact that I feel like her
inclination is artistic rather than

flat out horror, she would rather do
something that is incredibly creepy

and very scary, but doesn't feel the
need to dwell directly on, the stab

wound to get the point across that, so
many of the actual murders in this are

done in a ways that are interesting
and different and not just a man with

a large blade chasing somebody around.

Emily: I did miss the mouth full of bees.

Ben: Honestly, there's even something
about the way the hook's used, where

we get this repeating, like part of the
violence is it goes in and then we get

this sudden slashing outwards, like of the
blood where it's just like, I don't know.

There's just something even more
visceral about it than the usual,

like Michael Myers, butcher knife.

Jason, machete.

Emily: Yeah.

And also the fact that he's like
holding people up with it, you see these

people being like, throw it around.

And if you have a giant hook,
there's a lot of things in

the human body can be hooked.

Not that I know from experience.

And

Ben: some of it's just like good sound
design, like it is meaty and visceral

and he is just slashing people apart.

Emily: Yeah.

Jeremy: Yeah.

And I think, we've talked
a lot about class as well.

The class is very tied in with the
issues of race in this movie and

specifically in gentrification.

And we do also see, people of color across
several different classes in this movie.

And that is a level of representation
that is often missing even when

you know, race as well done in
a movie, which I think is great.

And in particular I love that we get to
we've talked about Teyonah Parris and

the fact that, we get to see so much
of her in this movie as the, she's not

maybe the protagonist of this movie,
but I feel like if there is a hero's

journey is that it's probably hers.

Cause she is the one who is dealing
with this past trauma and this new

trauma and is, the witness that goes
will go forth to tell everyone what

has happened at the end of this.

Aaron: I love when Grady calls her out
on taking advantage of gentrification.

But is it though, because if
she's no, that's not it was almost

like, I don't know how to look at.

It's like a mental Rubik's cube.

I'm like is it gentrification?

If she's black?

In the neighborhoods?

I don't know.

Ben: I'm going to say that something
I'm wildly unqualified to speculate on.

Jeremy: And I guess on the
question of of Brianna, do we

feel like this movie was feminist?

Emily: It's not not feminist.

Ben: Yeah.

I don't feel like this movie was
like in any way anti-feminist or

that Brianna wasn't a good, strong,
well-rounded a woman character, but

I don't feel like the themes of this
movie were specific feminist issues.

Morgan: Yeah.

Emily: Yeah.

Jeremy: Yeah, I think they really
do lean more into the injustices

done to black men in this story.

And Brianna is really one of the only
black women of of note in this movie.

There are certainly...

Morgan: One of the only
women of note in the movie.

Aaron: I don't know if I would
say it was specifically feminist,

but I feel like there was a a
generational theme played here.

You have black men who experienced
trauma and disrespect who are

cared for by black women with the
expectation of being propped...

So I think that was what we were
supposed to be taking from this.

We have this district more than
one occasion throughout their film.

He is disrespected by someone, and
then he comes home and he is cared

for by this woman who, because of her
own experiences are attracted to this

person who is experiencing trauma or
is who's got some as their brother

said some sort of psychotic break.

I just thought it was
maybe a hyper-focused.

View of, this, an unhealthy relationship
between, black men and black women,

and some instances where, there's
this sort of respect to black Mary

Spector, black woman respect each
other, question that's being asked.

And I feel like it wasn't resolved
or anything like that, but I think

the question was definitely asked and
part of me felt like it was a Nia to

Casa experiential thing that she was
putting on experimenting with onscreen.

Emily: I get that for sure.

Jeremy: And I think, I think it's
interesting, there are so few horror

movies that we see that are shot with a,
black female gaze that have a black woman

behind the camera framing, everything.

And I think it's I think one of my
favorite things about this movie is that

there is a scene after the initial dinner
party where they go Teyonah Parris and

or Brianna and Anthony go back to their
room and they're having a conversation

and they're having, maybe a prelude to
sexy times and she is wearing like a head

wrap and like real pajamas in a way that.

I think rarely happens in horror
movies period, but especially in

a way that feels authentic to a
black woman having been married to

a black woman myself for 12 years.

I think so rarely is that sort of interest
and attention paid to details like that.

And it's really good.

And it's really nice to see.

Ben: Yeah.

Yeah.

So I guess our ultimate take on it
is this movie has good authentic

women character in Brianna who is,
has lots of agency and dimension,

but this movie is not inherently
exploring feminist themes, but is still

awesome on needed to cast the bait.

A good fucking movie.

I don't know.

I'm just babbling fucking movie.

I'm just rambling at the otherwise.

Jeremy: We wanted to say about
the LGBTQ representation in this,

because it is certainly there.

We don't have to dig for

Aaron: it.

Emmanuel: Like there he's happy and
he has his own kind of thing going on

and he's a completely realized person.

He's not just exposition.

Just a plot device.

Like he, he has his own life

Morgan: flip and it's so nice
to see a queer black person.

I feel like so many times in film where
you see like representation from the LGBTQ

community, they're almost always white.

So it is nice to have that
intersectionality there.

And also, as Ben said earlier, it's
nice that he doesn't fall into the

bury your gays fro the whole movie.

And I was like,

Emmanuel: it's not just the best friend.

It's he's a sibling.

So it's the, I have a reason to be
here that is not just common thing or

whatever's going on in y'all's life.

Like more

Aaron: importantly, he is bringing
back cleats and body shirts.

You cannot hate that.

Ben: I love the scene where
they go back to the apartment

and he's just yelling out loud.

Like we are coming for her things.

He will be leaving with
them out where I can.

Aaron: He throws his
fabulous bag on the counter.

I was like, I bought that bag.

Jeremy: That's a good active sibling.

Like despite the fact that
looking at them, I don't think

he could actually take Anthony.

He really commits to the idea

Aaron: they made a point of draping
Anthony and the most form-fitting

and muscle accentuating materials
throughout the entire film.

So I think when seeing Troy and his
body shirt, I'm like, no, sir, no you're

not going to do anything near what you
think you will when push comes to shove.

But I appreciate you throwing yourself in
front of your sister while she giving her

at least two or three seconds to get away.

Yeah.

I would say we all think

Jeremy: of this as being
worth seeing, right?

Absolutely.

Emmanuel: Absolutely.

Watch this movie,

Aaron: just turn off your sump pump.

Jeremy: We got an recommendations
for people to check out Morgan

again, anything to recommend.

Morgan: Yeah, I would recommend
Horror Noire on Shudder.

You can also read the original
book by Robin Means Coleman but

the documentary is really great.

It has a lot of black voices,
like Tananarive Due and Tony Todd.

And one of the films they do
review is in fact Candyman.

So it's great to have a perspective
on the different horror films.

Jeremy: Emmanuel What would you recommend?

People check out.

Emmanuel: I'm going to recommend
a podcast because it's all I

listen to and it's actually by the
director , DaCosta, it's Ghost Tape.

It explores a lot of the similar
themes that Candyman does looking

at like trauma and varied stories
and how that affects the present.

A, it's not perfect, but I
think it's worth your time.

It's worth checking out.

It's audio drama.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Awesome.

And let's see, Aaron.

Aaron: I was inspired by it.

Teyonah Parris is hair, Chris.

Rock's Good Hair because I
just think it's fun, but yeah.

That's it.

Jeremy: Fantastic.

All so Ben, what have you got?

Oh, man,

Ben: Ooh I guess go watch Matrix
Resurrections because it has more,Yahya

Abdul-Mateen II being awesome.

And he wears lots of dope
as hell colorful-ass suits.

And I have a whole theory on
how his Morpheus represents

the non-binary experience.

Go watch it.

And then let me know if
you agree with me or don't.

I'm not going to interact with
you on Twitter or maybe I will.

I don't know.

Jeremy: Okay.

Emily, what have you got?

Emily: I'm going to talk about
William Kentridge and Kara Walker.

I recommend looking them up.

William Kentridge has done a lot
of short films with silhouettes

and puppetry and animation.

And he's a white artists.

He's from South Africa, he's his family.

They were all attorneys that advocated for
people who are marginalized by apartheid.

So a lot of his work is rooted in
social justice and is definitely

influenced this movie a little bit.

But more than that, I'm going
to talk about I'm going to

definitely recommend you work.

You check out the work of Kara Walker.

She's a black artist from
a Stockton, California.

But she has some incredibly
awesome work that she does

installation work and check it out.

Kara Walker, spelled K a R a Walker is in
you walk Yeah, like Walker, Texas ranger.

Very influential artists
in a movie about artists.

Jeremy: Awesome.

What I'm gonna recommend is something
I've watched recently and it ties very

closely to what Morgan recommended,
which is a Shudder recently released a

anthology of horror noire short films
that they produced several of, which

have people who are in the Horror Noire
documentary that there's a nice sprinkling

of great black actors, black directors,
black writers making stuff in there.

I think it's about three
hours worth of short films.

But it's definitely worth a watch.

People should check it out.

It's hopefully, you know, people
we'll see really coming up and

doing big things in the near future.

But that is what I recommend.

So just spend a whole day on Shudder.

It sounds like.

Yeah.

Who doesn't love Shudder?

All before we wrap up let's let people
know where they can find you online.

Morgan, where can people find
your you and your work online?

Morgan: You can find me at
DiversityHorror.Blogspot.com

or@DiversityHorror on Twitter.

Jeremy: Nice.

And Aaron, what about you?

And you find

Aaron: me on Twitter @AaronJAmos
and every Wednesday morning on your

whatever podcast aggregator you
have for the Talking Comics Podcast

Jeremy: and Emmanuel, where can
people find you and your work

Emmanuel: Online on Twitter @elipscomb2.

Jeremy: Fantastic.

As for the rest of us, you can find
Emily at megamoth on Twitter and at

mega_moth on Instagram and megamoth.net.

Ben is on twitter at BenTheKahn and on
their website at benkahncomics.com, where

you can pick up their books, including
the brand new Immortals: Phoenix Rising

graphic novel from great beginnings.

And you can pre-order the upcoming
Blows Against the Empire graphic novel.

And finally, for me, you can find me
on Twitter and Instagram at jrome58.

That's j-r-o-m-e-five-eight..

And my website is jeremywhitley.com,
where you can check out everything I

write when things do eventually come out.

And of course the podcast is on
Patreon at Progressively Horrified.

Our website is
progressivelyhorrified.transistor.fm and

on Twitter at ProgHorrorPod, where you
can come tell us, what'd you think about

this film and all the other films we talk
about as well as how we talk about them.

We would love to hear from you,
speaking of loving, to hear from you,

we would love if you could rate and
review this podcast, wherever you're

listening and that'll help us find
new listeners and get us up the charts

where you know, more people can find us.

I do want to thank everybody
again for joining us.

Thank you, Morgan.

Emmanuel.

Aaron.

It was so great to talk to you
guys about this great time.

I love this movie.

Aaron: Thank you so much
for it's a pleasure.

Morgan: It's a great time.

Jeremy: Yeah.

And thanks as always to my cohosts,
Ben and Emily for joining me.

This was a great time.

This has been a real fun
February full of good movies.

Emily: Absolutely.

Yeah.

Thank you for giving me the excuse
to watch this movie finally.

Yes.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Next week we're going to be
back to our normal schedule.

So we won't have short films every Monday.

We'll just have our regular Friday spots,
but definitely com tune in next week.

Cause we'll be talking about the
French film, Titane which was a new

one last year and we will be talking
about it with our friend Tee Franklin.

So come back and check that out.

And until next time stay horrified.