The Shape of Water (aka The Fish the F***s like a Man) with Bre Indigo

Emily: Being the devil's advocate
doesn't mean the same thing as it used.

Bre: I remember growing up I was
like, so in love with all the

like queer satanic presentation.

How and chicken?

I'm like, oh yeah, the devil's cool.

And I was like, oh wait, this is them
trying to like demonize literally.

And I was like, but I felt
that I, ah that's my gender

Emily: yeah,

Jeremy: I feel like there's a hard line
where like half the people were seeing

this stuff and they were like, oh yes,
that's what the devil's like, oh Lord.

And another half of us were like,
the devil's fucking cool man.

Bre: We're like,

Emily: I'm gonna hang out with the devil.

Bre: People are like, we
need positive representation.

But also we kind of like
those characters too.

But you know, just don't be weird.

Emily: Yeah, there's a lot of essays
out there and opinion pieces about the

demonization of queer people in media.

But then it's also like I'm
really queer for these demons.

Bre: Yeah.

Jeremy: like, I like a lot of
very straight nineties demons.

I love the Liz Hurley uh,

Bre: Yeah.

Jeremy: from Bedazzled.

Uh, I love Robert De Niro
and the uh, Al Pacino devils,

Emily: Oh yeah.

Bre: they're all great.

Emily: yeah, the Al Pacino devil is
definitely like, I'm making a, I know

we're recording and I'm making a, hand
sign, like a cosign, like a tangent.

Which is what we're on.

Bre: Awesome.

Emily: good.

Jeremy: All right, let's do this.

Good evening and welcome to
Progressively Horrified the

podcast Royal Hoard to Progressive
Standards it never Agreed to Night.

We're talking about a classic
Tale of Girl meets Monster.

Girls saves Monster from the government
Girl Bones Down with Monster.

That's right.

It's time to talk about
the Shape of Water.

The movie that answers the
Android question does The

Creature from The Black Lagoon.

Fuck.

Bre: Oh God.

Jeremy: I'm your host Jeremy
Whitley, and with me tonight I have

a panel of cinephiles at Cytes.

First, they're the Cinnamon roll of Senes.

My co-host Emily Martin,
how are you tonight, Emily?

Emily: I'm good.

I also think that Abe sapien fucks,
and this is a prequel to Hellboy.

I don't know if y'all know that,
but I think that this is important

to note because I'm pretty
sure this is Abe Sapien Fanfic.

Based on nothing but my own supposition.

Jeremy: mean, am Sabian is a, is a
well spoken gentleman of letters.

We will say that this version
makes some clicking noises and

some, some cooling and calling.

Emily: He hasn't figured
out the language yet.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Uh, And our guest, the writer and artist
of the web comic, Jamie and my artist on

the upcoming graphic novel, the Dog Night,
it's Bree Indigo Bree, welcome back.

Bre: Hey, time to see.

It's great to see your beautiful
faces and hear your voices.

Emily: Oh, thank you.

It's great to see you too.

Welcome back.

Bre: Thank you.

Jeremy: Yeah.

And what a movie to come back on
too, because uh, I pulled the

whatever length straw it is on
this one to, to do the recap.

So, let me jump into that cuz there's
a lot to talk about in this movie.

So it is as uh, our last
three movies we talked about,

directed by Guillermo Totoro.

It is co-written by Guillermo Totoro
and Vanessa Taylor, who you may also

know, is the writer of the Divergent
movie of the Hillbilly Gy movie of

several episodes of Game of Thrones.

It's stars, Sally Hawkins,
Michael Shannon, Octavia Spencer.

Richard Jenkins, Michael Spielberg,
and Doug Jones as the amphibian man.

I'm gonna call him Fishman for pretty
much the entire rest of the, the thing,

but he is listed as amphibian man.

Emily: Well, you know what
else sounds like Amphibian Man

Jeremy: what's that?

Emily: A

Jeremy: Am

Bre: I was gonna say.

Emily: also played by Doug Jones.

Jeremy: Yeah.

if there's a very long creepy uh, alien
type creature, Doug Jones, it's your man.

He doesn't have any lines on this one,
but he uh, still acts the hell out of it.

Alright.

If I've learned anything from making
this podcast, it's that watching four

movies from the same director in a
row will make you turn on anyone.

I love Del

Emily: Oh,

Jeremy: but watching this movie,
I was like, I've had enough

of your bullshit, Guillermo.

Emily: come on.

Jeremy: Because we do start with a Del
Toro ass opening where everything is

underwater and there's a narrator's
voice being like, this is a fairytale.

Which is something we have
heard four weeks in a row now.

Bre: Oh my

Jeremy: some version of,

Bre: yeah, I almost turned on him too,
but I was just like, I'll at least try to

hear someone else's point of view on it.

Jeremy: yeah, you know,
I enjoyed this movie.

I do think it might be definitely like the
least of the three movies we talked about

at the end of this, I think not including
Cronos, which is like very student

filmy in a lot of ways, but still good.

I don't think it's as good as
Devil's Backbone or Pans Labyrinth,

but it's trying something different
and I will give it credit for that.

Bre: Yeah.

Jeremy: Yeah, so we, af after our
little monologue we meet our hero,

Eliza, played by Sally Hawkins.

She's mute, kind, quirky, cares for
others, and takes exactly the length

of an egg timer to get herself off in
the bath every morning, apparently.

she lives above a movie theater next
to her best friend, the closeted gay

artist Giles, played by Richard Jenkins.

The mood of her day-to-day life is
perhaps best described as the film oly.

Emily: But set in dark city.

Jeremy: yeah, this whole opening segment
is like, what if Oly, but Baltimore

Bre: green.

Jeremy: which apparently baltimore is just
full of old buildings and steamy pipes.

Emily: Hell yeah.

Jeremy: it's not how Baltimore is now.

I've been there, it's not like
this, but I, I guess at some

point in uh, the sixties ish,
fifties ish, it was like that.

So every day she goes to her job mopping
up at the government lab with her work

friend Zelda, played by Octavia Spencer.

And every night she comes home and watches
musicals with Giles who takes her to the

bad pie shop to eat because uh, he has
a not so well hidden crush on the guy

that runs the place uh, behind the bar.

Work recently got a new shipment of
Monster in a tank, along with new

security uh, new security guy to go with
the monster Strickland, who is played

by the always menacing Michael Shannon.

Yeah Strickland is horrible from go.

He's, he's condescending.

He condescends to her and Zelda
both because they're women and

because they wash the floor.

All that you need to know about
this man is he washes his hand

before he pees and not after very

specifically.

And that this is like to him an
important part of his character.

Bre: Ugh.

Yeah.

This is the thing is he's aware of it.

He knows what he is doing.

He does it on purpose.

Emily: he has a whole thing to explain
it, and I'm like, okay, so you wash

your hands before you touch your
dick, but you don't hold your dick,

Jeremy: Yeah.

He pees with his hands on
his hips too, which is like,

Emily: yeah, like

Bre: So proud.

Jeremy: he pees like 1950s
Superman, like just chest

Bre: Oh God.

Well, he probably feels
that way about himself.

Emily: Yeah, although I'm pretty
sure that cattle prod is uh,

compensating for something.

Bre: Oh.

Jeremy: yeah.

he he also totes around a high voltage
kettle pro as if it's the pack that

comes with his action figure, The
creature's about to wipe that smile

off his face though by biting out
two of his fingers and sending him

straight to the medic uh, while
cleaning up all of Strickland's blood.

Eliza begins communicating with
the creature through taps and sign

language and gives him an egg to eat.

I don't know if the eggs are meant
to be like as metaphorical as they

feel, as, as the fact that it's an egg
that he shares with her off the bat.

But you know, sure,

Bre: Probably

Jeremy: Couldn't, gets his
finger and sewn back on.

And we meet his commercial
perfect wife and kid.

Emily: they're two kids, 2.5 kids.

Bre: Oh yes.

half Child.

Emily: Yeah.

Jeremy: yeah.

His wife invites him to ride the
express bus to pound town during which

his fingers start bleeding again.

And he s hushes her objecting to it
by putting his bleeding hand over her

mouth as he continues to fuck her.

Alicia made the worst
face during the scene.

She

Bre: Oh, I can

Jeremy: I need you to make a note about
this face that I'm making right now.

So there it is.

Emily: A friend of mine has a very
good very solid theory about how

his hands became septic immediately
after the finger incident.

He blames Eliza for putting his
fingers in her lunch bag, even though

it's the only thing that she had and
probably cleaner than the fucking

Jeremy: to get fucking mustard on them.

Emily: yeah, yeah.

Bre: I Believe.

I can't believe no one washed
them or sterilized them

before putting them on him.

Like

Emily: he was fucked from the
get-go cuz he didn't wash his hands.

Bre: pure.

You're right.

Dirty bitch.

Emily: Right.

Jeremy: Yeah,

he's, God, he's,

the fucking worst.

Bre: What do they call?

It's a raggedy bitch.

Jeremy: You raggedy bitch.

Emily: He is a righty

Bitch.

Derogatory.

Jeremy: so, uh, shortly after this
we find out that lab scientist Bob,

played by Michael Stohlberg, it's
actually named Dimitri and is a Russian

plant reporting back to the Russians.

He sees Eliza communicating with
Fishman, and uh, pushes the importance

of saving this intelligent creature
to both his American and Russian

bosses, neither of whom have any
intention of listening to any of this.

his American boss, general Hoyt instead
wants to go ahead with Strickland's

plan of killing the thing and dissecting
it to see, you know, what, what's

in there, what it's made out of.

Because he, he points out that this
thing is able to live and breathe

amphibious, which if they, you know,
could harness any of this to humans

or to the military or to space travel,
it would be incredibly important.

This movie also has these guys making
fun of Leica, the Russian dog that they

launch into Space.

Joe's like, make fun

Emily: Fuck you.

Jeremy: the dog and it's horrible.

Emily: Waka died for our since.

Bre: I did not like a single character.

Maybe the guy who was like, you know,
trying to advocate for Phish Amphibian,

but like I did not like anyone.

Jeremy: Yeah, like the Russian Spice, the
nicest is the best person in this movie.

Emily: Yeah.

Jeremy: Yeah.

, and Strickland's whole deal like
what he wants to do with the Alien

is the same plan from every movie
about mutants and aliens since 1980.

Uh, The government guy just
wants to kill it and dissect it.

The Soviets just want to kill it so the
Americans don't get anything from it.

So this is going to be set in
a motion and he is going to

be killed in a couple of days.

So Eliza wants Giles to
help her steal the Fishman.

Giles is desperately trying to put his
life back together after apparently

he had uh, several incidents with
alcoholism presumably having to do with

him and being in the closet and lonely.

And he is doing this by trying to uh,
Get his advertising art job back he

paints advertisements but you know, the
photograph is becoming a much more, a

much bigger way of, of selling stuff.

So he is slowly falling into disfavor,
you know, they want the gelatin to

be a different color, so he has to
go paint a whole nother painting.

Emily: John Ham is not

present.

Bre: I could

not

imagine.

Jeremy: so yeah, that doesn't work out.

Neither does him hitting on the
pie guy in his pie restaurant,

which is probably for the best.

Cuz then he's a fucking racist.

Bre: Right.

I did find that interesting.

Emily: Yeah.

Bre: that very interesting.

Jeremy: yeah, he immediately he turns him
down and then immediately does a racism.

And it's like, oh, okay, that's fine.

Or it doesn't, I won't say turn him down,
tells him not to come back because he

had the nerve to like touch his hand.

Bre: It's like, take the compliment, geez.

Emily: Got yeah.

Jeremy: Yes.

Meanwhile, Strickland goes out
and buys a new Cadillac to reward

himself for being king shit.

And then sexually harasses Eli, harasses
Eliza because it turns him on that she

can't talk everything wrong with that.

yeah.

Which uh, it's okay though
cuz she's doing a heist.

Giles having nothing else but her
in his life, decide to help out.

She packs up the Fishman in the
laundry and wheels him into the fake

laundry van for Giles to pick him up.

At least that's the plan she has.

But luckily Bob is down to help because
I don't know how quickly this would've

failed if Bob hadn't been involved.

Bre: as he's the only competent
person in the whole facility

besides Zella.

Jeremy: yeah, because Bob like
figures out what she's doing and

then unlocks the guy's collar.

Like, it's like, how are you
gonna get the collar off?

If Bob hadn't been there
to help you, like that's an

Bre: She didn't think anything through

Jeremy: Yeah.

So she, he unlocks the collar and
then is like, here's his food.

Feed him three times a day.

Don't put too much in her.

His water will get cloudy.

Emily: Never after

Bre: and then she immediately
does that Essentially.

Jeremy: She gives it to him after
midnight, anytime of day he wants it.

yeah.

And then he, he proceeds to knock
out the lights and the phones.

And then I think murder
the guard at the entrance.

I'm a little unclear.

He injects him

Emily: pretty sure that
was a big murder there.

Yeah.

Bre: injects him with the stuff
he was gonna put in the fish,

Jeremy: Yeah.

They never follow up on that.

They never like, and also he

murdered a guy, but like that
dude seems pretty murdered.

Emily: Yeah.

Jeremy: So Uh, Zel.

Punches Eliza out when she realizes
that like she punches her punch

card out when she realizes she

hasn't left and she's up
to something nefarious.

Yes, she doesn't punch her out.

It's not, clearly not Zeldas thing.

So this, this ends up helping her
look innocent in the long run.

But then she tries to stop her.

But nothing can stop.

Elijah's craving for fish sticks.

Giles nearly blows it, but ends up
destroying Strickland's new caddy

on the way out for bonus points.

Elijah's source Fishman
in her masturbation tub.

A prelude of things to come.

Giles is supposed to wash Fishman as Eliza
goes to her shift, but of course he falls

asleep and the Fishman has an insatiable
appetite for pussy, a prelude of things

to come by which I mean he eats Giles Cat.

Bre: Oh my God, I didn't even
really make that connection.

Emily: That's why it
was like, you know what?

He was just confused.

Like usually I'm, I get really mad about
sad cat death in movies, but I just, I

appreciate that dude was just confused.

He's also a wild animal and I feel
like Giles, like the way it was

handled was pretty reasonable.

Jeremy: Yeah, Jes is like, no,
and yells at him and gets a

cloth wipe for it along the arm.

And then Jes is like, oh, fuck that.

I ain't fighting this thing.

And uh, Fishman runs off into the night.

Giles apparently just lays down to,
sits around to bleed for a while

and calls Eliza to tell her what's
going on because Eliza goes to look

for the Fishman and he is literally
downstairs in the movie theater

having run a total of 50 feet away.

But Eliza does not want
to go to the theater.

She's more of a Netflix and
Chill type strips down and climbs

into her bathtub with Fishman.

She then shares some details
about how this works with Zelda,

which uh, I was surprised.

I was surprised by both times I've seen
this movie which apparently his little

hard, hard plastic shell in his crotch
opens up and the dick comes out of it.

Emily: A lot of animals
have that going on.

Like not everybody's a hanger, you

Bre: I'm not here.

Yeah.

I'm not here to body shame the fish, man.

I just think she's weird.

Emily: There is a line here that I
am still I'm still thinking about,

which is like, never trust a man
even when he is flat down there.

And I'm like,

Bre: What

Jeremy: Yeah.

Zelda.

Zelda is something else.

Emily: I mean

Bre: I like,

Emily: I don't think that's intended
to be any sort of commentary or like

phobic comment, but it, you know, I
might, my radar is up these days for

just like weird like, transphobic
comments that are here and there cuz

like people are just having trouble,
shedding themselves of that these days.

And I know that camo is cool and
everything, but um, so I don't think that

Bre: the character might have
very well had those opinions

seen as the time it was, but

Emily: Yeah, but I, I don't think
it, I think it had more to do with

the fact that he was a fish person
um, and he had AKA or whatever.

Although this is a scene I feel is

important

Jeremy: pronunciation of it
where it sounds like foie

bear is just a bit much for me

Emily: I will continue to do so, then I
found the perfect pronunciation of Kak.

But this is a scene you
may have seen as gifts.

which involve the sign.

I don't know if this is actual
like of coka extending penis.

If you're on Twitter and you know,
a s l and you hear this episode, and

please tell me if There's an actual
sign for, Dick comes out of Cloaka.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Emily: And,

Bre: you go.

Jeremy: Yeah.

So she, she also describes it
to Zelda while, while, I guess,

describes it through hand motions.

Meanwhile, Strickland's reattached
fingers are starting to rot off.

Not cool.

Apparently they smell.

That's great.

And this is the point which Eliza
decides to take her uh, WP to a

whole next level by flooding her
whole bathroom to bone down with her

new boyfriend in his natural biome.

Her sex water is dripping on the dude's
face in the movie theater down below

and running all through the house.

It's a lot.

I don't, it's, this scene is a lot.

It's like somebody had an idea and
nobody was like, no, don't do that.

Bre: Yeah,

Emily: Good for them.

Bre: there's one person in a room going
at it, just writing for their life.

Jeremy: I don't know if it's Guiro
or Vanessa Taylor I don't know

whose thing this is, but they were
like they full on went for it.

Bre: If I'm gonna make a niche
furry story, I'm gonna do it right.

Jeremy: yeah, judging from the,
the beautiful underwater camera

stuff, I'd say probably it's
Guillermo, but you know, that's,

Emily: For how grubby that bathroom, how
like charmingly, aesthetically grubby that

bathroom was, that water was very clear.

Bre: Oh yeah.

All I was thinking about was the toilet
water mixing with their sex water.

Emily: Yeah.

I mean, maybe he like cleans it.

Maybe he's got like a
filtration system built in.

Jeremy: no water's just
just full of fishburn.

Emily: that's it.

Jeremy: Just full of Fishman sperm.

So at this point, Fishman
has also apologized to Gil by

touching his head and his gashes.

The gashes then heal quickly and
his head starts to regrow hair.

So he's got a lot of talents.

Emily: And he is nice to the kitties.

Now

Bre: I, at this point I was still mad
that no one mourned the first cat.

Emily: I think they were
mourning the first cat.

I think also they're like in shock that
they're like taking care of a Fishman,

Jeremy: yeah.

Bre: All I got from it was that she
was horny and thought it was quirky.

I did not get any remorse for the cat.

Emily: Giles was upset, but I feel
like Giles is an interesting character

and I'll get into that later.

I have some things to say about Giles.

Bre: Okay.

Jeremy: Yeah.

But now our important thing, Fishman, is
molting and needs to go back to the water.

They have a plan to put him in the canal
when it opens up for the rainy season.

Eliza starts singing to him and
there's a whole ass musical number,

which fuck man, I don't know.

Emily: Dream Ballet.

Jeremy: it's, yeah, it's
kind of a dream ballet.

It, it seems to imply that like
she really, really needs to sing

right now because she is muted.

It's kind of like a weird,
questionable thing to me.

I don't know the disability politics
in this movie are all over the place.

Bre: Mm-hmm.

Jeremy: but we then move on.

Uh, The general tells Strickland,
either he has to find and dream of

the Fishman, or he's gonna be Dr.

Strange in the multiverse of shit.

He's not gonna be in this world anymore.

He's just gonna be in a world of shit.

Emily: He'll be unmade and unboard,
which is like, damn, this general, like

usually, yeah, like he's very poetic.

Jeremy: general's not in it a whole
lot, but he's the due to is, is

uh, Wayland's boss in justified.

And he's fucking great in that show too.

So, you know, he plays a nice
authority figure quite well.

But yeah Strickland follows Bob to
his rendezvous with his fellow Sylvia.

I wrote Angels here.

Agents Soviet agents they try
to kill him, but uh, Strickland

kills them very effectively.

Shoots one dude very much in the head.

And uh, then sticks his fingers in
Bob's bullet holes until he tells

him uh, there isn't a strike force.

But it wasn't a bunch of
Russians that cleaned out this

uh, creature from their labs.

It was just the cleaning crew that sold
the Fishman at which point certainly

makes a beeline for Zelda's House.

Zelda isn't gonna tell him anything
until they're good for nothing.

Husband who only appears
in this scene rats her out.

She's been whining about him
the whole movie, and he appears

once and is just a total rat.

Zelle addresses him down and then calls
Eliza to warn her that he's coming.

Eliza Giles take the Fishman to
the canal, but Strickland arrives

just in time to beat Giles in the
head shoots Fishman and Eliza.

He declares that he, he can never lose.

He always gets his man Giles promptly
clocks him with a two by four from

behind, and then Fishman straight up
stands up and wipes his bullet holes off.

And uh, he gives a great reading of this.

Michael Shannon says,
oh shit, you are a God.

And then the fishman's,
straight up murder Strickland by

slashing his whole throat out.

Bre: Yeah,

Jeremy: but all I is still dying.

So Fishman her into the water with him and
heals her bullet wounds and then puts his

hand on this slashes on her neck, which
are in theory are the reason she is mutant

Uh, but they're not
slashes, they're gills.

Uh, She's a much fleshier fish lady too.

I guess.

I d k unexplained the end.

Bre: this was Taylor Swift's
favorite movie apparently.

Emily: Who's favorite?

Bre: Taylor Swifts.

At least I heard.

Emily: Oh,

good

Bre: like,

oh yeah.

Good for them.

Emily: Yeah, for real.

Like

Jeremy: She also likes fairy tales.

You.

Emily: yeah.

Well, that's important.

So Brie,

Bre: Yes.

Emily: What was your first takeaway
from this movie when you first watch it?

Bre: Okay.

Oh, just, I'm trying to give
it more credit than I like.

Okay.

It's either gonna be one of two things.

It's either gonna be like the worst of
his movies or like he was trying to do

something that people just didn't get.

You know?

I haven't read anything about
his intentions for the movie.

I wanna go in, I wanna hear
everybody's opinions and stuff, but

to me, I just felt like Anything.

It could have been.

It wasn't because it overdid so
many things to the point where

it, it didn't add anything.

I don't know how else to put it, for
example, it's such a moody environment

and I feel like if they all like
talked to us, then it would have more

weight in a, in like the, setting.

Like, you know, the, the kind
of atmosphere I felt like

it was trying to be built.

Because so many times they would do such
like stereotypical, almost cartoony things

that would just like ruin the mood for me.

And I know it's not supposed to
be romantic, it's supposed to

juxtapose what you expect out of a
romance and the scenes and da da da.

But like, I didn't even get the
atmosphere that was intended

cuz it was just so silly.

Like, I don't know how else to put it.

It wasn't scary.

Emily: Did it feel that way
the second time through?

Like when you watched it for the,
did you, I assume you watched it

before you did the podcast with us?

Like you've, you've

Bre: No.

Emily: so this was

Bre: it for the podcast.

Yeah.

Emily: Okay.

Okay.

That's interesting because Ben had sort of
a similar experience with Penn's Labyrinth

um, and they also had this kind of shock
moment where they're like, this is it.

Like everybody's been talking to
me about this movie and this is it.

Jeremy: The

thing for me though is like Pence
Eberth won three Oscars and they're for

cinematography art direction and makeup.

This movie won Best Picture
and best director and like,

sure, the field is different.

But this movie also came out the, the
same year as um, as Jordan Peel's first

film, which we've talked about on here.

Uh, we've talked a lot about Get
Out and what a good movie it is, and

it's a lot better than this movie.

For all.

I love Guillerma Eltoro.

I feel like there's an idea here,
but that idea is a five page short

story and it's a two hour movie.

Bre: Yes, this movie was in stuff for
Blue, boring, and I felt bad because I,

I really like, I like the set design.

I love that they were
like, green everywhere.

It's moody and it has a reason.

And I was like, I got it.

It's a little much, but I got it.

And I could appreciate
the attention to detail.

And of course the Fishman
like looked incredible.

Right.

I can appreciate it all for what it was.

I just, like I said, like I
was like buying it, right?

I was buying the movie and then like
every time they would just make me roll my

eyes because of like some cringey thing.

Like, she's like, oh yeah, it's so sexy.

And he's like, sounds
like, yeah, so sexy man.

I just.

Jeremy: Yeah I don't know.

I mean, cause I, well, okay putting
the disability politics aside for

a second, I wanna like look at her
supporting characters, like her

literal support system of characters.

Because like Brie said, the Soviet spy
guy is by far the best of these three.

Richard Jenkins is like, I, I
understand that this is a, like very, a

character is very trapped in, in time.

Like this is supposed to be a
moment in time where like, he

is gay, but he can't be gay.

Like there is no
possibility there for him.

But also that's like kind of a
surface level observation that

like is that entire character.

Octavia Spencer is a very good actor.

I feel this character is really
like borderline racist, like

Bre: Um, yeah, she is
definitely, I'm sorry.

Me and my wife looked at each other
and I just went, oh look, the magical

negro And she has no character.

She has no character.

She does what's what the mute girl need.

I don't remember any of their names.

I just did not care that much.

Emily: Eli,

Bre: I really paid

attention.

Emily: whatever.

Bre: Like I would, I took it in, but I
did not bother to remember that stuff

cuz I was just like, I know their roles.

They're very straightforward.

She just did whatever
was needed for the plot.

I didn't really believe like her
character would do those things.

I don't know.

Jeremy: And there's, there's something
about, like, partially it's because Eliza

doesn't speak, but Zelda just fills all
that space with chatter and it, it's a

very, like, old something you would've
seen in like a fifties movie like.

Nurse nanny type character that
she just like continues to drone

on and like She goes on and on
and on about her, no good husband.

And it's in a very like, standup
comedy mama cast kind of way.

That like, I was like, ugh,
there's gonna be some kind of

reveal at some point, right?

That like, her husband is
something different and we get

to the husband and no, he sucks.

Like

he's in one scene and he, he has no
character other than like his recliner.

Like that's the biggest character trait
he has is his recliner in his television.

Emily: that was really problematic for me.

Bre: Yeah, they were very
stereotypical characters.

Emily: Yeah, I mean, like she was very
much the kind of stereotypical character

that I, I remember Rachel True talking
about being that you know, supporting

black character that's like, Hey, you
know, it says to the white girl or

like, Hey, you good, you know, or like,

Bre: Mm-hmm.

Jeremy: you okay?

Emily: are you okay?

Jeremy: Just like Rachel Tru talks
about how, how many different ways

she's had defined to say, are you okay?

Yeah.

Emily: And Zelda is, essentially
that character for Eliza.

And the, those super stereotypical
like relationship she has with her

husband and all that kind of stuff.

, I don't know, it, that felt problematic.

Jeremy: Yeah.

I mean Maybe it's because I've, I've
just been watching the Oscars at the

point that we're recording this, but
like the fact that like the first black

woman to win an acting Oscar was Hattie
McDaniel and it's for the literal

mammy character and gone with the wind.

And that character feels so much like this
Zelda character in this movie that I was

just like, this is as far as we've come.

Both her and Giles just feel paper thin.

Bre: Oh yeah, I agree with you.

I that was kind of how I felt
about just uh, in general.

I was like, okay, I believe
what I'm buying a, like, what's

like a fictional period piece.

And I understand that people had different
opinions back and then, and then we

wanna portray the characters accurately,
but then also to get stereotypes of

characters, as if it was made back then.

So I'm like, do you get
what I'm trying to say?

it could have very easily just
made a black character who yeah,

dealt with the racism of the time,
but wasn't a racist caricature.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Cause I, I think where that falls apart
for me is like, for those characters to

be that thin, it needs to be like hard
third person or first person on Eliza.

But there are scenes in which it's
only those characters and they

still are just exactly that thin
when they're like the point of view

character on screen it, it really.

It feels bad.

Emily: Especially the, with the amount
of time that has been taken with some

of these char, like Giles a little
bit, and Eliza certainly where they

take so much time to show us how she's,
quirky and she likes this music and

she boils eggs and things like that.

Like, I wanted that same kind of
facets from some of these other

characters and like Dimitri and
his Russian Russians, that Russian.

More than any other Russian has in
Baltimore, Maryland, America, like

also very, very cartoony, you know?

there was a lot of like
weird cartoony stuff.

Even like the suburban chauvinism of
Strickland was very, very cartoony.

And, you know, on that, with Strickland
it was supposed to be, but it didn't help

when everything else, you know, that that
statement about his hypocrisy and about

his obsession with image wasn't as solid
because everything else was so flat.

Giles is an interesting one for me
because he is defined by his denial.

Bre: Mm-hmm.

Emily: even to the point where when
they're looking at there's some

reports about like civil rights
demonstrations and stuff on tv.

He, like demands that it be
changed to happy musicals.

I don't think that's so much about
his character more than about just

you know, living in a time when you're
trying to like, avoid falling into

depression and all this, you know, like
he's trying to, to fight that aspect of

himself which is why he's like slightly
more, his slight more depth to me

than some of the other characters do.

Bre: Yeah.

Emily: But then the problem is that , as
a gay character, he is defined by being

in the closet which is basically like,
the barrier that a lot of representation

has tried to get past is that like, you
know, the, to be gay is suffering . His

sort of intent on like projecting his
midlife crisis on this Fishman who's been

interred in a bathtub and being like,
oh, Fishman uh, you and I are the same.

I'm losing my hair.

And you are literally drowning in air.

Bre: Yeah, no trust.

That's one thing I noticed too.

I just feel like every single person
in this story is using this Fishman,

even the girl who's in love with him.

And it's really upsetting because
like, there's so many things, right.

Okay.

I'm not gonna rant too long.

I'm gonna try to be really structured.

Okay.

It was weird.

It's weird.

This is like an overall feeling
I have, but it's weird that like,

her roommate you know, he goes
from like being like, so like, oh,

it's not, I'm not a part of this.

I'm not a part of this.

I'm not a part of this.

But the only time he helps is
when she's like demanding it.

And then only after he like
experiences like being fully out, like

othered does he go, oh, let me let.

Empathize with people who have it
harder than me and almost like, fully

like says, okay, well now I'm, I'm,
my identity is tied to like helping

my mute roommate find the love of her
life cuz I can't have love of my life.

And then, and then it just feels
like the whole movie is just

like this, like traditional guy
being murdered by the weird queer

brigade who like to fuck fishes.

Like it just feels so there and
then, at the same time I'm just

like, okay, everyone in this movie
is now, so, so what does that say?

Is that saying even though like, they're
so different, like they're all assholes,

they all want to just like, use and
like own and treat some something that

has feelings and goals and is alive.

Like the only person
that even comes close.

Treating the Fishman as a, like a
living thing is the Russian spy.

And even then, you know, his is still
like, well, we have a lot to learn.

Why kill him?

We can keep him alive and, and learn.

And then, you know, she really is just
like, oh, he is, I see myself in him.

He sees me, me, me,
me, me, me, me, me, me.

And then also shows him a
little, like a, a little letter.

And it's like supposed to be
nice, but it's literally a

person holding a fish in a jar.

I'm like, well, that can't
be on the nose, can it?

And then it's just like, I feel for her.

But at the same time, like, I
don't, I definitely think this

is more of an example of like
codependency and how terrible it is.

And she just uses everyone to
get what she wants, and she

doesn't really care what happens.

I'm like, so even though sh I'm
supposed to like her, or she isn't

in character, you're not supposed
to like her, but I don't like her.

And I, I feel like maybe
I'm not supposed to.

And lastly, sorry.

Emily: No problem.

Bre: I also feel like I'm being gaslit
into thinking I'm supposed to relate

to her and be happy for her in the
end, but I'm just like, I have a

feeling that no one is supposed to.

I have a feeling that we're all just kind
of like in this, like, Hey, I don't, I

don't, you've, I'll support you because I,
in the end, you gotta live and let live.

Emily: Well, yeah, no, I mean, one of
the questions I have here that I wrote

down in my notes is like, where do we
stand on monster fucking queerness?

Right?

Like a lot of people who identify as
queer, See, you know, horror movies

and see these characters that are
other, and this is in, especially

in the times where we are lacking
actual representation, right?

And as people develop identities
and define themselves as something,

or someone I should say, there's
a lot of interest in the queer

community and monster characters.

But the problem is that the monster,
it's that, and this is where Jeremy,

I will joke about Abe Sapien and I'm
like, yes, Abe Sapien, but a Sapien hand

explicitly consent and fully understand
but then there's something to that

that does get a little too close to
like fetishizing the others so much.

And I think that's the big issue with
the fact that the Fishman doesn't talk

and the Fishman is so monstrous that
he's just as like, you know, he does

sign and he does like, have weird,
like mind meld shit that he does.

But it's not direct.

And I think that mystery confuses
the message in this particular case

where, you know, the fetishization
Becomes a little problematic.

Jeremy: Yeah,

I've been putting off talking about sort
of the, the disability stuff because

it is so like, weirdly complicated
to talk about in this movie I don't

know I mean, this came out in 2017
and it, it won best picture for 2017.

And I don't know if we have really just
come that far in six years, or like,

if this was, you know, green book at
the time where like it's a period drama

where it says something that would be
really important to people of that time.

But to us looking at it as like, yeah
deaf people are human and have needs

or, you know, mute people are, are
human and have needs, people with

disabilities do also wanna fuck,
like, you know, it feels like there's

a point in this movie where they're
like, Isn't this mute girl also human?

And it's like, yes.

Bre: Yeah, it's like of course,
like why are we trying so hard?

What?

No one said anything else.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Is is she also a monster?

No, she's not.

Like

Bre: Yeah,

Jeremy: we're right there with you buddy.

Just stop trying to convince us like,

Emily: Yeah.

Bre: I was Kind of like confused and
saddened by like the fact that like, you

know, of course there's so many different
like ways you can look at something based

on like your political stance with that.

But like I found it really weird that like
she has not only a gay man friend and a

black woman friend and the only person
she can relate to is the, is a mute fish.

And like, I get it.

She relates to them, but she even, she
very easily used them to get what she

wanted and then just like was like,
yeah, I'll stay in the ocean now.

Like, if you think about it for
real, she left them all up there with

the police, left her black friend
with the police and a dead like

Jeremy: also, Also that the black
friend arrives with the police.

I mean, I know it's not
2023, but still did she call

Bre: Saying she just was there
as an object for the movie.

She was like literally Octavia's
like character was there as

the like plot moving object.

She was a character.

Jeremy: Yeah.

I feel like, and it, it makes me feel
weird to say it, but I feel like her

entire character was just Woo girl.

Like

Bre: Exactly.

Jeremy: and I was,

Bre: it.

Jeremy: and I was

Bre: Like when the freaking scientist
even had to shush her and that

made me live it, I said, oh, he
was like stuck with the chatter.

I was.

Let me at him.

That's like in the beginning of the movie,

Jeremy: yeah.

and, and the, the expression by
the main character of how much she.

Hates her own muteness and is is
bothered by her disability in a way

that feels like the way somebody who,
who had, you know, a voice, who who

had been speaking and didn't know how
to communicate would deal with that.

And I, I also think that's sort of like
undercut by the fact that everybody

she wants to communicate with is
perfectly fluent in sign language.

You know, , both Zelda and
Giles just know perfect.

A s l.

I don't know

Bre: Yeah, I don't remember.

I mean, that's not to disregard anyone
in like real life, but with this

movie, I don't remember her being
like, treated badly for being mute

other than for the ma the bad guy.

You know what I mean?

everyone seemed pretty not fazed by it.

And so like for that in a movie, it felt
like, well, if I'm so close to believe

she hates this experience so much.

Like I didn't really see it other
than just what you would assume.

Jeremy: Yeah, that the only two
things that feel at all timely to me

revolve around Strickland, which is
like the fact that like he fetishize

fetishizes disability, which is like
something that is like a pretty

new idea in a movie like this.

You know, that is not something
you could have seen in 10, 20 years

ago or, or would've likely seen.

And that they, like the movie is
condemning of that, that they're

not like, He likes the mute girl.

Isn't that nice of him?

Bre: Wait, he wasn't fetishizing.

I mean, like he just wanted a
woman that didn't make a noise

Emily: I mean, he was, he was
kind of fetishizing the fact

that she was mute that way, but I

Jeremy: that she couldn't,
that she couldn't speak.

Bre: that she couldn't speak.

Not that she wouldn't,

Jeremy: yeah,

Bre: that's how I interpreted it.

Okay.

Well, I hear you out.

Yeah.

Jeremy: I mean, the, the other thing
is, how closely tied Strickland's

shittiness is to Christianity and
American exceptionalism is like, he's

very convinced of his own rightness,
both because of and with God.

And like he feels perfectly comfortable.

He feels no obligation to treat.

Anybody not the least of which we're
talking about is, you know, the actual

creature with any sort of uh, humanity
or dignity, because he's the, I mean,

he's the straight white male here.

Like he's the guy in charge and he
says, you know, there are types of

people that are in charge and there
are types of people that aren't.

Um, He's very clear about that.

That is the only bit, to me, that
feels like the movie is saying anything

that it couldn't have said 30 years.

Emily: Yeah.

Well, and when we talk about class
in this movie, I think that that's

the main thrust of the most powerful
thrust of the movie as, as flat as

everything is, is that it's just like,
You know, let's get back at the man.

Doesn't the man suck?

You know, which is not necessarily
a new thing, but the way this movie

said it, I mean, it was, it was kind
of nice to see his car get fucked up

by like the laundry mobile, you know?

a lot of the plot of this movie
was really enabled by the fact

that these, white dipshits , they
just don't notice the help.

Like you have this army of people
working in a tough secret facility

that are punching in and nobody's
searching them, as far as I can tell.

Nobody's signing any MBAs.

You know, they do have some loose lips,
lip sync ships, fucking propaganda

from the, like forties on the wall,
but, it's a little dangerously

close to being a plot hole, but I

Bre: Oh, the whole movie
is just a big weird wow.

Like

Emily: well, I, I think that
there's the classism that is

discussed in the movie does kind
of enable that to fly a little bit.

Cuz there is that bit where he's
like, why am I asking you guys?

You're like, the shit cleaners.

Why would I ask you about, how could you
even, how would you be able, you're just

a woman, you can't steal a monster like

you

Bre: underestimate women.

Emily: Yeah.

It was very mad men
kind of situation there.

and it was over the top in a way that
a lot of this was over the top and,

you know, again, which made it very
cartoony and very two dimensional.

Bre: I see.

I didn't even pick up, I just felt
like the movie was just a bunch of

like stereotypical like plot beats, but
we're all helping the girl get the fish.

Emily: Yeah.

I mean, I'm, I'm not saying that
it's that new or interesting.

Yeah.

But like,

and I

think that

You know, we talk about uh, again,
another progressive politics point

that we make about feminism is
I think that the movie is more

feminist, the more that we recognize
that she is flawed in a little bit.

Just like, I think it's more,
you know, like support woman's

wrongs kind of situation.

But the fact that she's that
she also has this disability is

complicating the issue there.

Bre: Oh, I mean, I don't feel bad for not
liking her character cuz she's disabled.

I don't treat anyone any
differently, so I'm just like,

no, you're, you're just, yeah.

Emily: But like, if she didn't
have a disability that was defining

her attraction to the Fishman and
she was just like, I just wanna

fuck, and this guy's interesting.

This is a different thing right here.

This is someone like,

Bre: Well maybe it's like they needed
something to explain why, , I don't

know, , I don't wanna get too heavy into
the politics, but it's like, you know,

to make a, a white straight woman, fit
in with a gay man and a black woman

in this time, it's like, you know, why
isn't, like, why isn't her life better?

Why doesn't she have options
or some crap like that?

I don't know, maybe I don't justify it.

Jeremy: Also there's the very
fairytale backstory to her that we

only kind of get passingly, which
is that she is an orphan who was.

Found on the seaside with these cuts
on her throat and couldn't span from

like, get go, which I guess by the
end, we're supposed to interpret as

her being somehow a misplaced part
of the race of sea dwelling mammals.

I don't fucking know.

Like that, you know, this is, this
is the place she belonged all along.

It wasn't on the surface
with other humans.

It was that she, you
know, she's not disabled.

She's just a creature
from the sea, I guess.

Um, It's like what I, it
is, it's very like what,

Emily: At least she wasn't
crawling out of the tv.

That's all I'm saying.

Jeremy: I, yeah, I, I don't, I don't know
what to make of it and it, it's not good.

Bre: I think I, yeah, I think I I would've
liked a five minute animated silent video.

Emily: Yeah.

Or like if they wanted it
to be a a period piece.

Yeah.

Like, you know, lady, there's no dialogue.

We don't need to know that
anybody is, is mute or what, like,

Jeremy: Also, also that her last
name is Esposito, which means orphan.

So like that's an intentional,
they, they say that.

Bre: Was she found by people who
speak Spanish and then like, they're

like, oh, that's her name now.

Jeremy: just a Spanish orphanage.

Just, they, they got real, like Game
of Thrones naming conventions there.

Fuck.

I don't

Emily: Ever.

Jeremy: It's, there's,

Emily: wasn't sound, she wasn't found
by anybody who speaks English, because

then she just would've been Eliza Orphan.

Jeremy: Yeah, because I feel like both
Pans Labyrinth and Devil's Backbone, we've

talked about like, oh, you can go down
these layers and it's really interesting.

There's all these other things, and
I feel like the more you do that with

this movie, the thinner, it feels like
the more levels you go down, the more

you're like, well, that's troubling.

Like the implications of that are not.

Bre: There was one last, like,
parallel, I'm curious or one parallel

that I wanna bring up that I, I
kind of thought of when I was.

Talking to Tammy, my wife we
were just like laying in bed and

she was still just like, I just
wanna talk more about this movie.

So she was talking my ear
off, I'm falling asleep.

And then I kind of said, you know,
I was like, you know, it's kind of

interesting that we're all supposed to
be like really grossed out by like how

the, you know, the white power guy was
like, I want a woman who doesn't speak.

And it's like, oh, that's gross, obviously
cuz that's like a male power fantasy.

And then it's like when she has like this,
like male lover fantasy, it's like, he

doesn't consent to anything either really.

Like, we don't really know for sure
if he's consenting just cuz he's in.

I don't know.

Like there's something there.

I wanna know if you guys get
where I'm saying cuz I was

also half asleep, like I said.

Emily: Oh no, he, that's a
good point because, she's

also like projecting onto him.

If it was clearer that they
could communicate more clear,

like clearly, you know,

Bre: Gorillas can sign.

Would I gorilla?

Emily: yeah.

No, I, I too would not fuck a gorilla.

Like if I, you know,
I would need a sonnet.

I actually am not into
apes, but that's just me.

Bre: I'd

Consider a date if he was speaking full.

Emily: I would totally go to
dinner with a gorilla if, like,

I would pay for that dinner.

I'd be like, I'm sorry, your
habitat is getting fucked with, you

Bre: Yeah, it would.

I would.

definitely be interesting friends.

It would be interesting friends.

Emily: yeah, I would totally be a pen
pal with a gorilla, but like, I don't

know if I wanna get that intimate.

Also, apes are really strong.

Bre: Yeah.

Emily: like I would be afraid.

Bre: So it's like interesting that
she was like so attracted to this big,

strong, powerful figure that also couldn't
clearly consent to the relationship.

It was just

Emily: Yeah.

Yeah.

And that, that contrast having
those characters in the movie,

it does make it like this kind
of highlighted a little bit.

Bre: Like that's what was making me think
like maybe Del Torah was truly trying

to say like, these are the kind of weird
things y'all romanticized, by the way.

Do you know what I mean?

Emily: yeah, yeah.

Although I'm pretty sure Del Toro is,
is like, yeah, fuck monsters Sure.

Whatever you want, you know, but like,

Bre: See, that's the thing, like I was
kind of hoping it was like a, a mirror to

society where it's like, this is weird.

Right?

Okay.

Emily: yeah,

no, I do think that there's
a little bit of that.

I mean, who knows?

and if it is, if it is a Sapn Fanfic
they should've let him have a line

Jeremy: Yeah, He could've had, he
could've made this sea creature

talk or communicate telepathically.

I don't know.

Bre: He is a healer.

He can't speak.

Emily: yeah,

yeah.

Like, can he teach him how to write?

Like if he can heal you?

He could probably write, if he could
sign, he could probably write, you know,

Bre: it would be really

cool if like the, there was a scientist
that was just like, oh my God.

He is got, he's kind of trying
to communicate in a way that we

could actually study or anything.

Anything could have been implemented.

Cuz this movie just went
any direction anyway.

Emily: well, Bob tried that, but he,
like, the plot kept fucking stymieing him.

Like the, he was like, Hey, bosses
we could like figure out how to

communicate with this creature.

And they're like, no,
there's a, they're cold war.

I don't know.

Fuck it.

Like, we only like bombs?

Jeremy: Bob even makes a real good
argument, which is like this creature

is kind of human, but he can breathe
on air, in on land and like survive in.

Areas for a while.

Like if we research that maybe we
can like, make that a thing that

our soldiers and astronauts can do.

Uh, And the general's like,
no, I wanna cut it up.

Emily: Yeah.

Bre: it was just really interesting
how absolutely no one changed.

All the characters just kind of, I mean,
like, I guess the roommate changed, but

like everyone else kind of was just like
a tunnel vision with what they wanted and.

Just were like, no, no,
these are my intentions.

No, no, no, no.

Even, even the main girl, like she,
I was just waiting so many times for

her to, you know, put some power and
sympathy into like how she empathizes

with the char, with the fish in
more than just what she sees in him.

Like, I was just like, all right,
girl, say something cool, like, say

something that makes me like you.

And she was just like me.

I'm so sad.

And he gives the good fish
sticks, so like, I dunno.

Emily: I mean, yeah, like that's, it's
also confusing cuz there's not a lot of

like socialization that happens with that.

Fishman, they just, they're
like, oh shit, he's gonna die.

Okay, I'll take him to
my bathtub and fuck him.

Like it's, you know, if there
was a little bit more of like

a getting to know you, you

know, kind of situation.

And like, yeah, there was a little
bit of an arc, you know, cuz at

first he ate a cat and then he
is like, I'm gonna pet the kitty.

Now I know it's, it's okay to now we, we
don't kitty not for eating, we eat egg.

We don't eat this kind of pussy.

Bre: It was just so like offscreen, like
there was no actual, like for me, I don't

know, did I look away and miss a scene
or something because like it was just

like he ate the cat and then ran off.

She got him and then he was
petting the cat and I was just

like, so offscreen development?

I don't know.

Jeremy: Yeah.

I think there's, there's not even
like, I don't know if we just need

a montage there if like, and I think
the same is, is weirdly true of their

like, intimate relationship of like,
we get more shots of her naked and her

Masturbating than like, we get of them
doing any sort of like, intimate anything.

Be it, I mean, not just talking,
but kissing, like anything.

It's almost in the way it's shot.

Like she just got a new sex toy, like
replace the masturbating with the Fishman.

Um, Cause I, we don't know.

We don't know how he feels about it.

He, you know, that's part
of the issue in general.

But like, I don't know.

It's not good.

None of that's good.

Yeah.

I, I

Bre: We're all just like stunned.

Jeremy: I, I feel like we have
that, like, one, the one weird

question here is this movie Feminist.

Emily: I think if we are looking at it
like support women's wrongs, I think sure.

You know, the main character's flawed.

But her mutinous is sort of a weird,
like the way that it interacts

with her, her character, it kind
of disrupts that a little bit.

I think she's an interesting character
at least, even when we think about how

problematic it can be and how she's
like, you know, horny and desperate for

fish, dick, like, that's interesting.

But I, I wish there was more to it, you
know, like, I wish there was a little

bit, there was like some vegetables in
that sandwich, you know what I mean?

Bre: Yeah, I feel like for me it could
be interesting if it was done more

mindfully, but it's not interesting to
me cuz it just feels slapped together.

Like, it really just feels like throwing
a bunch of stereotypes at a wall and

then saying, but there's a Fishman,

that's it.

Emily: This

Bre: green.

Emily: tuna

Bre: Yeah, right.

We substituted mayo for vegan mayo,

Jeremy: Yeah, I

just, uh,

Bre: I'm not even like a, I'm
not even like a king shamer.

And I, I mean, like, I'm not
even into like antifer anything.

I just think this movie did it poorly.

Like there's so many, like things
that we're bringing up that I

don't even know if they were
considered when making the movie.

And I'm just like, I don't wanna
just like say, like, Delora, I think

this was just one of your lazy days.

But like, I feel like that, I
feel like he's capable of more.

And so I'm just kind of like, now
I'm looking for the substance.

Like you said, I'm looking
for the vegetables.

I'm getting those condiments

Emily: Yeah.

I mean it's very much the
what if isn't that fucked up?

And then, then, but then like
we look into it and it's like,

what if you fucked a fish man?

Bre: And then it wasn't even good porn.

Emily: Yeah.

Well then like we didn't even
see, like all we saw was this

sign of the dick coming out.

We didn't see the

Bre: Right?

Emily: fish.

Dick, I would've

Bre: You're

gonna go in.

Go in.

So if he didn't go in, then
there must be something else.

Right?

Like I'm supposed to say
something else, but then I'm

like, there's nothing really else.

Emily: I feel like they could
have explored, I mean, at least

they could have explored each
other's bodies more on screen.

Like they were doing a little bit of
touch in, but like, and, and embracing,

but it was very like chased, you know?

Which is interesting in a movie
where we see this very, very

upsetting scene of thrusting of the

Strickland fucking his wife and, and
like sticking his bratten fingers

in her mouth, you know, like,

Bre: Oh yeah.

It would've been a good
uh, Parallel or whatever.

so those the, the, my two critiques
too, right there, like first main

priority, make the fish actually
communicate in a way where I'm like,

this is not you just copying hand signs.

And then second, you know, actually
give us an intimate moment between

the fish we're supposed to say,
okay, yeah, it's totally cool if

you wanna be with the Fishman.

Like, this is, this can be beautiful.

Like, he's sentient and he
can speak like, who cares?

But then I'm like, now I'm just
like, I'm just uncomfortable.

And I'm like, was that the point?

Am I supposed to be uncomfortable?

Emily: Yeah, I

think that there was, they were
trying to write a line with it

that ended up being uncomfortable.

Like they just wobbled
right off of that line.

Bre: Yeah.

Jeremy: I,

Bre: a side.

Jeremy: there's been a lot of
movies where we're like, does

it have queer representation?

No.

But we're kind of glad it doesn't,
we don't know how well this

director would've handled that.

And this feels like, yes, there was a
black person and they were like, yeah,

they're black, black people have problems.

And it was like real
baseline 1 0 1, racism stuff.

And then real baseline 1 0 1,
like it's hard to be queer stuff.

The disability stuff,
it just, I don't know.

It makes me wonder, like if
they consulted with any disabled

people, like, because it,

Bre: This was just a woke movie,
you know, just woke for a woke sake.

Jeremy: yeah, I mean the,
the, just the, the way that.

Defines herself so much by her.

Her lack in this movie is, seems very much
like a able-bodied person's perspective

Emily: Absolutely.

Bre: Yeah.

Emily: She could have, I mean, there
are a number of things that are going

on with her that she could have pointed
to in terms of her dissatisfaction

with life, like being harassed,

Bre: I could be with a fish alien,
so like I'm not gonna shut it off.

Right.

But again, it's the communication part.

I'm not gonna assume

Emily: And you see in the lighthouse,
dude sees a fish with tits and

he's like, oh, it's a mermaid.

I'm gonna fuck it.

You know, it has tits.

So therefore, Boom.

Like it's,

Bre: great.

Emily: it is a good movie,

but like nobody, that's the thing you
know, in that movie, fucking the Phish

person is sort of taken as red, right?

you know, you have movies like Splash,
I think splashes the movie where

like, Tom Hanks fucks a mermaid or
whatever and she becomes like a person.

Yeah.

And you know, that's a little bit
more of a little mermaid thing sit

situation because I think she gets legs
and therefore, you know, the parts are

all where he would expect them to be.

But like in the lighthouse spoilers,
there is a full on fish vagina and

Bre: was beautiful.

Emily: Yeah, it was, I mean,

Jeremy: should really talk about the
lighthouse at some point on here.

Emily: Yeah, we should,

because I

think,

Bre: I have to come.

Emily: It's better fish fucking
representation than the shape

of water because like the
shape of water is like, yeah.

You know, yes.

I do wanna, like, mermans are also sexy.

Like, yes, let's go.

Jeremy: I think like all of this too
boils down to like, What I was saying

that irritated me at the beginning of
that, which is the fairytale thing feels

like a feature in Penn's Labyrinth.

And here it feels like a crutch,
feels like, oh, it's just a fairytale.

It's just like a

Bre: they too hard

Jeremy: story.

Emily: yeah, yeah.

Bre: then puts all these
upsetting things in our face.

Jeremy: But yeah, I think uh, it's, it's
complicated, I guess, all that considered.

Would you guys recommend this movie?

Do you think people should check it out?

Bre: I want my time back.

Jeremy: Reclaim

Emily: This is what I do.

This is what I do.

This is why I do this show because I think
it's really important to have a variety

of, of opinions cuz like, I like this
movie, you know, but it's not the kind of

like, it's not the kind of movie that I'm
like, listen, it's gonna change your life.

Bre: Alright.

Emily: When I first.

Yeah, when I first watched this
movie, it was at the behest of

my father who was like, we're
gonna have a family movie night.

Jeremy: Oh boy.

Emily: And we, I wanna watch this
because it was an Oscar winner, you know?

And he is like, Emily,
you like weird shit.

Let's watch this together.

And I'm like, all right.

And then

Jeremy: And then an hour later, you, you
and your dad were watching Sally Hawkins.

Fuck a fish.

Emily: yeah, well the musicals
part was one of the only times that

he spoke while we're watching the
movie, cuz we're watching it at home.

And he was like, Stranges my practice.

Credulity.

Which is to say, I don't, he
says this strains my practice.

Credulity, which is his complicated
way of saying I'm not buying it.

Jeremy: Fucking believe this.

I, I feel like that scene like is bad.

Like it's, it's fun to watch.

It's nice to look at like, it looks
good, but it like is a scene in which she

imagines a better world in which she is
not disabled and that he can actually.

Consent that he is actually like present
in a way that he is not normally.

And it is a moment that makes you go, oh,
this is, the rest of this is fucked up.

Like,

Bre: Yeah.

So that's what I'm saying.

Okay.

Exactly.

With that, like we wouldn't, like, I
feel like we wouldn't see the moment

where like dude shuts his wife's mouth
and we wouldn't see the mule where it

shows her like, What she wishes, like
her Fanny, if we weren't supposed to

like compare it to her own actions or
compare it to something else in the movie.

So I feel like the like the only is
there so that we can see that like

the other stuff is intentional,
but maybe I'm overthinking it.

I don't know.

I don't know about anything anymore.

Emily: I think that I prefer it.

What Your overthink your over thunk
your overthought and version of it.

I prefer because it is a little bit
more of like a critique of like, let's

really think about monster fucking here.

You know, make sure
your monsters can talk.

Bre: But then I don't feel like it's about
the monster in the first place cuz I'm

perceiving this all as just like, like
for me, it's like every time I question

like, oh maybe it's not that deep, I'm
just like, nah, I just feel like this is.

I don't know, like this doesn't seem
very different from all the kind

of romance I see in other movies.

It's just a monster this time instead of
like other mentally ill people who are

projecting on each other and insecure,

Emily: I mean, Forrest Gump.

Bre: boom,

Jeremy: that's not

Bre: no,

Jeremy: like,

I just, I I feel like we, we've
gotta take a hard stance here, which

is fuck werewolves, not wolves.

Like just, you know, that's our,
that's our hard stance here.

Werewolves, werewolves, wolf,
men, they could consent.

Wolves can't just, you know,
don't fuck giant wolves.

Don't fuck dire wolves.

You can fuck werewolves.

That's fine.

Bre: But this, but he's in a man
shape and so that, that's what

like, that's what it's like.

You like, oh, we got
two legs and, and a pee.

Emily: werewolf.

Okay.

Don't fuck.

Jeremy: don't he?

Emily: Don't fuck a werewolf if it can't
talk or has no ability to communicate.

I'm saying if it doesn't have any

Bre: I mean, you know,

Emily: take Yeah.

Bre: Great.

Emily: definitely like

Bre: I mean, if you know who the werewolf
is too, if you know who the werewolf

is too, it's like, okay, so just wait
until they're a speaking person who,

or at least someone who can consent
writing and verbally sign whatever it is.

Right?

And then next time y'all can plan.

Right.

Like

communicate.

Emily: Yeah.

Also, she was really taking a risk there
cuz his semen could have been like poison

Bre: She didn't care.

Emily: or like, I mean Yeah.

But that's another, like,
that's another problem.

Like you gotta be careful

Jeremy: getting into the
Superman problems now.

Okay,

Bre: bro.

I would've been afraid he
would just rip her apart.

Like she

Emily: yeah, yeah.

Like what if he was like a werewolf and
he, you know, just fucked really rough.

Bre: What if it was barbed, bro?

Like there's too many
animal penises on earth.

Emily: I have seen too many.

Comics where there's a werewolf who
can talk, and his human partner is

very upset because Of a little problem.

Jeremy, it's giving me a great look here.

Jeremy: What, what comics
are you reading, man?

Emily: this shit just flies by.

This is, it's on my radar.

I'm so sorry.

I go on Tumblr.

What I, this was the thing that
I actually saw on Facebook.

You know, sometimes it's a problem and
sometimes it's not, and that's What?

I'll

Jeremy: Did we answer the question of
whether we would recommend this to people?

Bree, would you recommend
people reading watch this movie?

Bre: I would to watch it for like the same
reason, like I would tell someone to watch

like Swiss Army, man or the lighthouse,
because it's just an experience.

Right.

But would I ever be like, Ooh,
you need to see this because

history, da, da da, da, da.

Emily: Yeah.

Jeremy: Yeah.

I, I feel like, I mean, we
talked a lot about Guillerma

Toro in the past couple weeks.

This movie is still
directed by Guillerma Toro.

The direction is great.

The writing is not all there.

Like the like it's a, it's
still a beautiful movie.

It's well made.

It's just maybe not well.

Bre: I think that's it.

Because like visually, I was
just like, it's beautiful.

Like, ev like the scenes were beautiful.

I was just like, I'm just, you
want me to believe that this is

rooted in, in real life, but then
something crazy happens, but at the

same time, you're going in weird f.

Fantasy world, and then you
say it's a fantasy story.

And I'm just like for me it felt even
more like it was written to feel like

it came out in the time, like, you
know, shortly after like the swamp.

what

is the name of the movie?

Emily: creature of the black Lagoon.

Bre: Yeah.

Like it's because of all the stereotypes,
I was like, is this supposed to

feel like an, like, it was actually
made then because got me there,

but then it just, but I don't know.

It was a weird marriage
of these themes, I guess.

I don't know.

Emily: yeah, it felt very weird
tales and it was like, but it was

very, we weird tales of the time.

It was not updated at all.

Bre: Yeah.

So, no, I mean, I'm just, you know.

All right.

That's.

Emily: I mean, I would, I would
recommend this movie for the same reason.

It's just like, you know, see it make your
own decisions about it, you know, know

that it, it got these two Oscars, just
so you understand how the Oscars work.

You know?

It's not that big of a deal.

Bre: I wanna hear people's,
I think I would show it to

hear people's takes, right?

It's like a vibe check.

I'm like, Hey, what'd you feel about this?

Huh?

Jeremy: Get their opinion and then
ambush them with all your ideas

and theories

Emily: Yeah.

Should we get an Uber,
or should we call a cab?

Jeremy: Well, I guess, Emily, what
would you recommend that people watch

having, having been through this?

Emily: Just watch, like if you wanna watch
Dermo Deltoro, and if you wanna watch Sexy

Fishman, just watch the Hellboy movies.

Not the new one, but the old first
Hellboy in Hellboy two Golden Army.

Ape Sapien could definitely consent.

Hellboy can consent.

There's a lot of consenting
monsters in these films.

That fucking Trio den guy can consent.

They're all sexy and you know, you see
them fucking just about as much as you

see our girl Eliza fucking on screen.

So, you know, at least with Hellboy,
he gets to kiss a lady that's on fire

Bre: Yeah, that's

strong.

Jeremy: Bree, did you have
anything you wanted to recommend?

Bre: I mean, I, I, I forgot that I
had to recommend like, to be honest.

But I mean, like we were talking
about the werewolves, right?

And so that's like
branching off Monster Men.

There's a movie that's not a whore, but
it also got me with the the monster fucker

aspect that made me go, oh, okay, I'm
just gonna look past that and enjoy it.

Which was Wolf Children Ame Yumi.

It's an anime.

Yeah.

So like, that was weird cuz I
was like, oh, it's so beautiful.

Aw.

It's a, it's a, it's a, it's just,
you know, a little love story.

And then he is like, by
the way, I'm a werewolf.

And she's like, oh, that's okay.

I still love you.

And then they do it.

But like, for some reason he
was in wolf form and I was like

Emily: He was in hybrid.

Bre: For a minute.

What knee?

What knee?

Just, it felt like full wolf,

Emily: I think he was in hybrid forum when
they were fucking, but he became full wolf

later.

Yeah, he did have the wolf face, which,

Bre: That was weird, right?

Jeremy: decision.

Emily: I like

Bre: He has the ability to change and
he said, I'm atop today, you into it.

And she was like, okay.

And then it was like in the middle
of this romantic, beautiful time.

So I was just like, oh, okay.

Look past it

Emily: you know

Bre: her, huh?

Emily: I was just gonna say, like
with the, with him into the wolf

face, like, if it's easier for him
to be in wolf face, I really am not

happy with saying wolf face now.

Wolf head Wolf hybrid

Bre: Pop.

Emily: wolf top.

If he's

Wolf

top, I mean,

Jeremy: That we agreed we weren't
gonna do any more wolf face in TV and

movies.

Emily: that's, I'm so

sorry.

But yeah, like

Jeremy: Just hire

Emily: it's

easier Yeah.

No more wolf appropriation.

Okay.

But the wolf thing, if it's easier for
him and it's him being his true self,

I feel like there is a, an element
there that, you know, like she's trying

to, he's trying to ensure that she'll
accept him as he is, you know, he

doesn't have to wear makeup.

Like

Sure.

Like I feel like there's that there and
it's a lot easier because he is talking.

just like, I, I really don't,
it is weird when he can go full

wolf and like, shit happens to
him as he is full wolf, you know?

But you were gonna say about the daughter.

Bre: I think I was thinking of two
sentences at the same time and then

I switched sentences halfway through
and that, yeah, but I was gonna say

just simply the fact that like, when
you get past that, it's a beautiful

movie about a mother and the daughter
and son and the, and the daddy.

And it's really beautiful.

And then it'll hit you a couple times.

You should wa definitely watch it so
you can just have that experience.

It's one of those experience movies.

You need to see it.

Emily: Yeah.

And it's, it's more about family and like,

Bre: For sure.

It's a whole, it's more wholesome,
but my brain crossed the streams

when it came to the monster.

Fucking

Emily: Yeah.

No, I've, I've definitely seen that.

Nobody races cars though
in Wolf children, sadly.

Bre: yeah.

You'll definitely just, you know, sit
down, grab a Kleenex, some comfort food.

Watch it a good time.

Emily: It's

Bre: What about you?

Jeremy: So, this is gonna take a turn.

Bear with me.

I I wanna recommend another
Sally Hawkins film in which she

has a much less ambiguous and
more appropriate relationship.

With an animal who is in this case
clearly intelligent and able to

do their own thing and consent.

And it's not an inappropriate
relationship that being Paddington

Bre: Huh?

Jeremy: because Paddington is
like, literally, Sally Hawkins

was filming Paddington too and
this movie at the same time.

And I gotta say
Paddington's a better movie.

Like,

Bre: Okay.

Jeremy: and it treats like this tiny
bear that is incredibly intelligent

with the sort of like clarity and
and dignity that this movie, that

Shape of Water lacks treating its in
intelligent animal character and is,

is did not leave me feeling weird
and problematic about the movie.

You know, granted that is
not a sexual relationship.

It is a

family.

Bre: brain, I'm sorry.

Like I was very

oof.

I was still in master fucking
brain and, and then the Paddington

came to mind and I was like, whoa.

Emily: well, yeah, the, we have
just talked about the problematic

nature of certain juxtapositions.

Jeremy: yeah.

Yeah.

Paddington is fucking chill.

Like that movie is, is chill and
fun and seems to know how to like,

create a character who is you know,
both unambiguously an animal and

also intelligent and you don't
feel weird about it at the end.

You're, you definitely
like with like, oh yeah.

You know, some humans and
some bears can have a family

together and everything's cool.

It's not like a

sexual relationship.

It's like a

found

Bre: Paddington.

Jeremy: Yeah.

It's.

Bre: my God.

Jeremy: Yeah, it's, you know, it's a
found family relationship about, you know,

this smart bear that comes to London.

But yeah.

Fucking watch Paddington
watch Paddington too.

Also Hugh Grant, isn't it?

Bre: I'm gonna watch it.

Jeremy: yeah.

Emily: All right.

Jeremy: Yeah.

the

Paddington movies are fucking great.

They're some of the, the best
movies of the last decade.

I'll die, I'll die on that hill.

Bre: Well, they, they do seem to like him.

Everybody in

Jeremy: Yeah.

Emily: Yeah,

Jeremy: yeah.

Well, with that said Bree, would you
let people know where they can find out

more about you and your work online?

Bre: Just go to my website, bri indigo.com
and you'll see all my social media and

everything I've done and that is the
quickest, easiest place for you to go.

And I'll just leave it at that.

Jeremy: Awesome.

Emily: sounds good.

Jeremy: As for the rest of us,
you can find Emily at Mega Moth on

Twitter and at mega underscore moth
on Instagram and mega moth.net.

Ben even though they're not here
today, is at Ben the Con and on

their website@benconcomics.com, where
you can pick up all of their books,

including pre-ordering their debut pros.

Novel l Campbell wins the their weekend
which is, is coming up this fall.

So you can go ahead
and pre-order that now.

And finally for me, you can find me
on Twitter and Instagram at j Rome 58

and on my website@jeremywhitley.com
we can find everything I write.

You can also pre-order re in my
book The Dog Night right now.

Emily: it.

Jeremy: by the time you're hearing this,
it's close, it's close to coming out.

so

Go order it.

good.

Bre: You'll like it.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Emily: You will.

It's so cute.

Oh my God, it's so cute.

Jeremy: Thank.

Yeah.

And of

Bre: I don't think we'll be able to
this, you know, it's gonna be our best.

Jeremy: you gotta keep upping that.

You gotta keep upping that game.

Emily: Yeah,

Bre: Right.

Jeremy: We gotta write our
Phish monster story next.

Emily: remember.

Gotta think about

Jeremy: yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

And of course the, the podcast
is on Patreon it progressively

horrified on Twitter at Procore pod.

If you want to tell us what you think of
the movie of the podcast, if you wanna

ask us any questions about anything, feel
free to hit us up and we would love it

if you'd rate and review the podcast.

Five Stars helps us reach new listeners.

And as always, thank you so
much to brief for joining us.

It's been a

Bre: Oh, thanks for having me.

It's always great to come
and hang out with y'all.

Emily: Well, thank you.

Same.

Hang out with us more.

Jeremy: Absolut.

And thanks to all of y'all for listening.

Thanks to Emily for joining us, and
we will be back next week to to start

our AA P i our A A P I Heritage month.

So come come check out
those episodes as well.

And until next time, stay horrified.

Emily: Clap