The Devil's Backbone (aka Don't Fan the Gasoline Fire) with Ivy Noelle Weir and Susan Beneville

Susan: I think I watched like four
episodes and then my wife was like,

no, we're not watching this anymore.

Jeremy: My wife did that with the Wire.

I just continued to watch it myself.

Actually.

Have, have you guys watched The Wire?

Susan: that was another one
that we went a little ways

into, and then I got the, Nope.

Jeremy: Yeah, I I had
been watching The Wire.

I was like two seasons in and I finally
convinced my wife to watch an episode with

me, or I wasn't even like that far in.

I was on the first season, still finally
convinced my wife to watch an episode.

Her one like thing that'll rule out any,
any movie or book for her or TV show is

like if there are kids in danger, And
the one episode she watched is the one

where they, they kill baby Michael B.

Jordan.

And I was like, no, it doesn't,
it's not like that in every episode.

Ivy: Oh no.

Jeremy: only time anything
like this happened.

Ben: Where Wallace at
string, where Wallace at?

Jeremy: Terrible.

All right.

You guys ready to jump into this?

Talking about the Devil's Backbone?

Ben: I truly don't know,
but let's do it anyway.

Jeremy: All right.

Good evening and welcome
to Progressively Horrified.

The podcast will be hold of horror to
Progressive standards it never agreed to.

Tonight we're talking about
Guillermo Toro's second big

independent feature film.

This one actually in Spanish,
not just a little bit in Spanish.

Like Cronos.

This is The Devil's Backbone.

I am your host Jeremy Whitley.

And with me tonight I have a
panel of chil Encino Bites.

First, they're here to challenge the
sexy werewolf, sexy, vampire binary.

My co-host Ben Khan.

Ben, how are you tonight?

Ben: Finally representation.

We can really relate to immature,
wannabe, comic creators.

Jeremy: Yes, very

Ben: Fucking that, that, that died.

When Jaime was like, I'm
gonna make comic books.

I'm like, Jaime, you go for it.

Jeremy: Just as, just as likely
to work out as it was for the

rest of us at this point, I think.

And our co-host Emily,
is on vacation this week.

She is at Emerald City Comic-Con.

I would tell you to go see her, but by
the time this post, it'll be well over, so

don't go there looking for her right now.

But we have

Ben: do, it'll be funny.

Tell us about it.

Jeremy: We just wander into the convention
center, demand to see comic books.

That'd be great.

And we have two great guests
filling in tonight though.

First of all, a returning guest and
graphic novel writer, the writer of Nick.

It's Susan Beneville.

Susan, great to have you back.

Susan: Great to be here.

Thank you very much.

You know?

Of course.

Hi.

May as one, once again, an artist
who thinks he doesn't need a writer.

Jeremy: Yes.

Very important, very important

Ben: oh, that moment kicked me right saw.

Susan: Yep, me too.

Jeremy: all been there and our other
guest, the writer of Anne, of West Philly.

And the relevant to this and
award-winning archival quality Ivy.

No, we are Avi, it's great to see you.

Ivy: Yeah.

Thank you for having me.

I'm very excited to talk about my
chosen father, Guillermo del Toro.

Ben: Yes, and you can really tell
it's Guillermo del Toro because

there is endless sympathy for the
ghost in the supernatural elements.

It's never the ghost that are a problem
in a Del Toro movie, it's always people

except for Pacific Rim, where it was
legitimately just the giant monster.

Jeremy: I mean,

Ben: one ended up

Jeremy: were also not problems
in there, so you know,

Ben: No, that's true.

Susan: Yeah.

Ivy: few ghost problems in that movie.

Almost none.

Ben: I

Jeremy: to be.

Ben: his, his creative ghost
haunted the shit out of the sequel.

Ivy: Oh

Jeremy: Oof.

Yeah, this one this is a beautiful movie.

I don't know, Amazon had the brand new,
I guess, super HD restoration of it,

which uh, watching it on my TV is like,
why do new movies not look this good?

Ivy: yeah,

Ben: Gorgeous film.

Like to quote Harry
Styles, it's like a movie,

Ivy: it does feel like a movie,

Susan: Yeah, it had those movie Qualit.

Ben: and I say that a little because
I love to make fun of the, don't worry

darling drama, but also, I mean, coming
off of Cronos last week, which really

had an indie low budget horror film
coming into this, it really is a sense

of like, oh, we have a leveled up.

This is not fucking d i y horror.

This is real cinema now.

We're dealing with the Spanish Civil War.

We've got gorgeous
cinematography and shots.

And with the exception of a
couple explosion effects, I mean

really just like fantastic, just
very atmospheric, just a movie.

Movie.

I'm bad at words today.

It's been a week.

Jeremy: Yeah, it had a real, like stephen
Spielberg and Stephen King worked on a

movie together, but they were Spanish.

Like, that's what it feels like.

It's got the, like Stephen King, little
boys fucking around and, you know, getting

into deep supernatural shenanigans.

And then the Spielberg like epic
pans across desert and following,

you know, follow the car into the
place and just these really great

shots that you're like, damn.

Like, I wouldn't have thought
to make that, to get that shot.

And he did.

It's real good.

Ben: No, you're totally right.

why aren't modern movies
looking this good?

Like-

Ivy: like it's also the first one
where you can see the comic book

influence in Del Toro's work.

Like the shots of the bomb and everything.

I know that he's said that.

He was really inspired by a Mexican
cartoonist, and the name is escaping

me, but actually hired them to work
on the storyboards for the film.

So some of those shots actually are done.

You know, were, were storyboarded by
a comic book artist and I feel like

it carries so through the rest of his
films, that very comic panel esque

framing you know, things seeming
larger than life to these kids.

Like, I just think it's so gorgeous.

Susan: I mean, I think even from the
opening shot where they see, where you

see the Bombay doors open on the bomber
and you, you're just following the

Ben: Great opening shot.

Susan: Oh my God, just a bit.

Awesome.

Ben: I don't know if you, if it's more
directing or cinematography, but everyone

involved in just the filming of this
movie fucking brought their a game.

Like this is a superbly well made film.

Like to point, wait, I really, I didn't
have very many notes on this film

just cuz it was just so well crafted.

Like there was no fat, there was
nothing that wasn't emotionally

important or contributed to
the themes or the atmosphere.

Jeremy: Yeah, for sure.

And I think even like down to the casting,
this, this movie is pretty immaculate

because, anytime you get a group of
little boys in a story like this, some

of them tend to like, fade into each
other and you're like, which kid is this?

I don't know.

But like, these kids are all like, very
distinctive, not just in their their

personalities, but in their looks.

And you know, they've got certain
accessories and stuff that you're like,

oh, that's the kid with the goggles.

Okay, got it.

I remember him.

So like, it's, it's
really well put together.

And I think, like, going back
to what Ivy said uro was a

fine choice for a found father.

Or for a chosen father.

Because not only is he
like a, great filmmaker-

Ben: looks like a great hugger.

Jeremy: sympathy.

Yeah.

Ivy: Oh my God.

You know, he gives the best hugs,
you know, it's like hugging totorro.

Jeremy: I feel like this
dude's gotta be a great hugger.

We've, we, we've talked about this
before on this show, I think is,

he is, I would like to hug Altorro.

It seems like it would be

Ben: Yes.

Ivy: everything wrong with my life.

I think if I could, if I

could give

to hug.

Ben: Well, I mean, there is that,

that famous anecdote about how,
uh, the little girl actress in the

flashback scene of Pacific Rim to
help her be not afraid during filming.

Let her call him Totorro sound.

Let him call him Totorro during filming,

Ivy: It's so cute.

Or have you seen that footage of him?

So he has like a favorite like
Kaiju and he went to Japan to do

promo, I think for Pacific Rim.

And they show him getting to meet
like an actor in the Kaiju costume.

And he's just delighted.

Like he's just is the happiest
I've ever seen someone look.

He's just the cutest man who
makes the most terrifying movies.

Ben: I feel like they say, you
know, like, oh, You don't wanna

see how like the sausage is made
of like, creative endeavors.

Like once you peek behind the
curtain it loses magic, I think.

But there's so much that like if the
creative process that like increases the

magic, and I think you can see that with
De Toro that like he's not just seeing

a monster design he likes, he's seeing
decades of film history and the directors

and actors and effects teams who put
that history and the greater context.

And I mean, he's just a, a man who
clearly loves film and that love is

felt in the DNA of all of his movie.

Ivy: Absolutely.

They feel so personal.

And I think what, especially, like I love
about the Devil's Backbone is that, so he

considers it a sister to Pan's Labyrinth.

He thinks of them as
like a pair of movies.

And they both feel so personal.

And I feel like you can feel like
memories of childhood and again, like

that love of filmmaking, that love
of comic books, like things that we

carry through our lives into adulthood,
like so reflected in them and it

makes them feel very personal to you.

Ben: if someone told me that Guillermo
Delto was actually born in 1929 and

then in 1942 time traveled to like
90, like 1990, I would believe you.

Ivy: Yeah.

Ben: like, cuz like you said,
it's like I know this man wasn't

a lie for the Spanish Civil War.

Whatever he went through there,
this is clearly an era or

experience that resonates with
him on an incredibly deep level.

Jeremy: I'm, I'm not an old enough
person to really make this like stick,

but I think it's incredible that
GUI do Toro as still a very young

filmmaker at the point that he was
making this, has the like, insight to

write characters like Carmen and Dr.

Casares, who are like older people
who like have a lot of interiority,

who have a lot of stuff going on.

Some of it's kind of fucked up.

But like, they feel like real people who
have lived really long, hard lives and

like, that's not something you can say.

I think for a lot of even
good young filmmakers

but like, like,

Ben: you wanna talk actors who I, who?

Amazing.

This movie Federico, Lupe as Dr.

Casares.

Just incredible.

Ivy: He's incredible.

Ben: such

Ivy: looks so much like Christopher Lee.

It throws me off

Ben: he does he

Susan: But.

Ben: Absolutely a hundred percent looks
like Argentinian Christopher Le, a hundred

Jeremy: It's crystal ball

Susan: You, you get that sense
of like, that love of film.

And as you know, I, I love old films
and I love, you know, film noir.

And so you can see that, you know,
Deltoro is somebody who clearly

studied those like old classic films
where they have like older women and

older men who are like still vibrant.

You know, that just isn't
something you see now.

And you see like, like her lust and
her passion and all those things.

And same thing with, with him.

And um, and we just don't see
that I think in, in modern films.

Certainly not in, these
sort of fantastical films.

And I, that was one of the things
that I just loved about it was the

humanity of those two characters.

I mean, all the characters,
but they just grabbed.

Ben: Also between this and Cronos
having now seen Federico, Look

clean-shaven with a mustache and with
a beard, fucking beard all the way.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Yeah, he's,

Ben: Fucking, he looks
amazing in that beard.

He looks, he looks great in this movie.

You know, aside from the part where
he's dead and covered in flies.

But when he is alive, he looks great.

Jeremy: looks great.

Dead and covered in flies, you
know, and it's a lot to, it's

a lot to expect of somebody.

But I don't feel like we can talk
about him without talking about

Marisa Paredes as well, who like,

Ben: Yes,

Jeremy: great.

Like, you know, I've, I've seen
her in, in several other films.

You know, she was in, and she's
in the skin I live in, like, and

she is always just fantastic.

Like, she, she brings it every time.

Those are both Pedro Almodovar movies.

So like, he, he writes
women very well as well.

But like, yeah, she's, she's so deep,
there's so much going on with, Carmen

throughout this movie that like, as
the movie goes on, it just sort of

keeps peeling back layers on her.

And you know, by the time you find out
the worst things about her, you already

like her a lot, so you're like, ah.

Like, that's, that's terrible, I guess.

Ben: I.

Susan: mean, it, it just makes you
feel like so much more compassion

for other characters, right?

It makes you feel a little bit
more compassion for histo and

and it also makes you look at

how fully developed each character is.

Ben: Plus Act one Jacinto before you
realize just what a piece of shit he is.

I mean, fucking, I get it
like, yeah, Marisa Paredes

Ivy: Jacinto is such a great antagonist
for exactly the reason we were just

talking about, like, he has so much
depth I feel like Del Toro gives you,

and like at the beginning, you know,
we were talking about it and you said

there was like no fat on it, right?

Like, In such a tight film, to give
that much depth to an antagonist

is really hard cuz it would be very
easy to make us into like a mustache

twirling, like child murderer.

Ben: instead, he's a
complex child murderer.

Ivy: a more interesting child murderer or.

Ben: Yeah.

Oh, very interesting child.

A very interesting child murderer.

Yeah, like every, you're right.

Like no one's just a cartoon
character except maybe Goggles boy.

Goggles boy might be a
little bit of a cartoon.

But everyone else is
very three-dimensional.

Like ha, the degree to which Jaime is
introduced as just the taller orphanage

bully, and then goes on to be so
developed, like to the point where Jaime

kind of overshadows Carlos in the plot.

Ivy: I think the shot of the bomb
landing on the night that Jaime sees

it, I think it's one of my favorite
shots in any movie ever made.

It's so like, I don't know.

You feel so much that experience for him.

Like he goes through this terrible
experience and he comes outside and the

bomb lands and it's like, I don't know.

You just feel so bonded
to him in that moment.

Ben: Oh

Susan: Absolutely.

Yeah.

Jeremy: yeah, it, it's such an interesting
thing to evoke in people watching this

movie that by the time you get to the
end of the movie, you're like, I really

hope Jaime gets to kill this guy.

I really want him to get that

Susan: Right, right.

Ivy: Yeah.

Ben: the end of the movie, hell yeah.

especially.

Because this isn't like, oh,
we've stopped the villain right

at the height of his plan.

Or we've, we're having an
epic due and I win the dual.

This is a mop of people like
repeatedly spearing, someone

crawling along the floor.

So it says a lot about how good
the setup is, that I'm still

entirely rooting for this.

That at no point during just this,
you know, group child murder, am I

being like, Ooh, is this too far?

Should this be a good thing?

I'm still like, Hey, you're
doing what you gotta do.

Go get 'em.

Kids.

That's a tough line for a movie to walk.

And this movie dances on.

Ivy: deltoro is so
intentional with violence.

You know, I think a lot about like the
bottle breaking scene in Pan's Labyrinth.

if you've seen Pan's Labyrinth,
it's pretty gruesome.

even like.

You know, this repeated
stabbing with sticks, right?

Like there's never violence in his movies
that feels over the top, even though

it really easily could, it always feels
really realistic and really grounded.

And I think that's what makes it
so affecting, cuz it feels like

very visceral and very real.

Like I can't think of him ever using
violence in like a fetishistic way.

Susan: Right.

I mean, I found that the, the stabbing
seemed to be almost restrained.

Like, I thought it was gonna be like
the stabbing of the mammoth, and it

would just be like this frenzy, and
it really wasn't, I mean, it really

Ben: oh shit.

I didn't even make the mammoth connection.

Fuck.

I didn't even, ah, yeah.

Oh, this movie y'all.

Jeremy: that first spear that goes in
under his arm just looks so painful.

Like it

looks like it hurts so much, and like
he doesn't, there's no end trails.

There's not a ton of blood in
this, except for used as like

color effect more than anything.

But like when that first spear hits
under the arm and that, that soft

spot, it's just, it hurts to watch.

You're like, oh, I really kind of
want that guy to die right now.

But, oh my God.

Ben: right?

Like there's no, I'm like, Ooh,
this isn't gonna be a fight.

He, he is lost.

There's no coming back from that.

The one moment that I think Del Toro
Con kind of gave into spectacle,

this is more object destruction than.

violence on person is, and I, again, if
someone told me Robert Rodriguez like,

filled in for a day while Del Toro had a
stomach bug, I would believe you is when

the car explodes and debris fly straight
into the camera as a scene transition

Jeremy: Yeah,

Susan: Yeah,

Ben: it's a cool moment, but it's also
a kind of totally outta place with

Ivy: Yeah, tonally very strange.

Susan: yeah.

Jeremy: I, I think it, it works because,
so many children die in that scene.

Like when they, come back and they
pan back over the ground and there

are several young boys dead, like
not dying, but like they are gone.

It's like, oh, like that
wasn't a fun action explosion.

That was an explosion of like a car.

And when cars explode, pieces of
them come off and they kill people.

Susan: Right.

Ben: I wanna say Del Toro was always so
good about showing, just, you know, they

say you can't make a truly anti-war film
because the show war is to glamorize it.

But I feel like Del Toro might have
found a way to tell a truly anti-war

film by never showing the soldiers or
the battle, but by focusing squarely

on the effects and trauma of innocence.

Ivy: Yeah, The critic um, Jay
Hoberman called the Devil's Backbone

when it was released anti-Fascist
Supernaturalism, and I really loved that.

I know.

Isn't that just awesome?

But

Susan: we made a lot
more of that these days.

Ivy: Yeah.

Ben: Right?

Oh my

Ivy: was really, I would say that Del
Toro was an anti-fascist filmmaker.

I mean, it's so much a theme
in a lot of his work, you know?

Ben: I mean, to bring it back to
Pacific Rim, which not a horror

movie, but is the movie I love.

I mean, he talked in great detail in
interviews about like how much thought

he put into just you know, the titles
of this fighting force, that he very

explicitly wanted to avoid traditional
military titles, which is why uh, you

know, it's like, I forget what Idris
Alba's rank is in that to Google.

But yeah, it's all about like rangers
and marshals instead of like generals

and lieutenants and captains.

Like he was very explicit about wanting
to, in this one movie where he kind of

absolutely does glorify violence, granted
it's giant robot on monster violence.

So not something that I think
people will have too much real

world trauma about, hopefully.

Then again, we, Emily has made us watch
a lot of Avon Gelian, so I'm not sure,

but even in this one movie where it
is monsters versus robots, he's still

putting thought into, okay, if we're
glorifying this big beat him up, how can

we make sure we're not glor accidentally
glorifying the military alongside it?

And uh, especially if you look at
that in the context of say, like, You

know, like the Michael Bay films
with the Military's presence or Dark

Knight Rises, where you have Batman
literally leading an army of cops.

You know, it's, it's a level of
thought and anti-fascism that I

don't think a lot of other filmmakers
are really as conscious or aware

of, and as intentional on avoiding,

Jeremy: The only other one that
comes to mind is Ryan Johnson, and

I think that's just because I'm, I'm
watching Poker face right now, which is

basically, what if Colombo was not a cop?

Like, hmm.

Ben: Ryan Johnson, definitely
also in the anti-fascist camp.

Also, I have not watched Dark Night Rises
in quite a number of years, and only

just now in this moment, pulling that
example out of thin air, did I realize how

poorly Batman leading an army of cops as.

Susan: Yeah.

Jeremy: Yeah, I mean, that
whole movie has a lot of issues.

Like Derek Knight has a lot of issues
on a thematic level that are easily

forgotten underneath, like, Heath
ledger's performance and things like that.

Uh, Dark Knight Rises does not have
that sort of thing going for it.

Ivy: no.

Jeremy: Well, Ben, did you
want to uh, do the, the recap

Ben: Uh, yes.

The Devil's Backbone is introduced
through uh, Carlos an orphan who.

Just lost.

His father doesn't seem fully
aware that he's lost his

father, and that never
really comes back up again.

Especially the whole movie.

Never knows that his father's dead.

So that's a thing.

And he's dropped off.

Importantly, it's the Spanish Civil War.

His father was an anti-fascist.

And he is brought to an orphanage
run by other members of that,

um, the socialist forces.

It's not really clear if they're
funding or how it all works, uh,

but the people running it uh, Dr.

Casares and Carmen are very clearly
former or actively involved in fighting

the fascist or in the Civil War.

You know, they talk a lot.

They talk about like, Ooh, maybe
England or France will come or help us.

And then they talk about how
that's definitely not gonna happen.

Ernest Hemingway flies
in with his ambulance.

Okay.

That part didn't happen, but, you know,
somewhere during this movie, Ernest

Hemingway was driving an ambulance around.

On his first night in the orphanage
Carlos meets several other orphans

like aforementioned Goggle Boy,
whose name I don't remember,

and is not in the Wikipedia

Jeremy: I think that's Galvez.

Susan: Kelz.

Ben: Thank you.

Owl whose deal is, he does
not talk and is small.

And Jaime, who as we've talked about,
is introduced as a bully, who is

mean to Carlos takes his comics and
pranks him into getting in trouble.

But as we will find out uh, he is.

A far more complicated
person, also an artist.

And Carlos and him start to be friends
after Carlos doesn't rat him out for

them all sneaking outside at night.

Not that Kaaris doesn't figure it out
anyway, cuz Casares's is smart like that.

He's been at this game longer
than they've been alive.

They can't keep fucking
secrets from Casares.

He knows what's up.

Meanwhile, there's also Jacinto who
is nominally engaged to the woman who

works at the orphanage, but is also
having an affair with Carmen, who is

rightfully ashamed because he was also
an orphan in her care way back when.

Jeremy: He's an OG orphan.

He's been an orphan
there for like 16 years.

I think he says

Ben: there's layers, I mean, Not quite
Oedipal, but it's uncomfortably close.

And he, he's just bad.

I mean, you know, he is generally just
horrible to be around and also just

cuts Carlos' face as like a warning.

So, you know, generally stay
away from the people who just

indiscriminately knife children's faces.

Jeremy: his girlfriend

Conchita.

Turns out to be a real G though like.

Ben: oh, she's absolute g

Jeremy: She spends a lot of the
movies sort of watching him do bad

shit and making excuses for it.

But like later on in the movie will be
the one that's like, well, everybody

else here is old a child, so I guess
I'm gonna walk a day and a half to

town to like save the day despite, you
know, wearing a dress and old shoes.

Like, I'm just

going to

Ben: doesn't even take water.

She's, she's just ready to.

And then it's still point blank
by Jacinto like, I'm gonna kill

you if you don't come with me.

And she says, get fucked at knife point.

So she unfortunately does not make
it, but she goes out like, like a boss

on her feet telling Jacinto to his
face, what a piece of shit she is.

She's awesome.

But before all of this fucking Carlos
sees a ghost Santi you know, and it's

in that kind of way where Del Toro
likes to do, where it's like, Ooh,

ghost, is this gonna be creepy or scary?

But you're like, no, Del
Toro, I know you're making it.

You love ghosts.

The ghost is clearly gonna turn
out to be a good person who

was like wrongfully killed and
helped them in the end, which is

Jeremy: I love how they do his, the
effect of, of Santi, like he looks

mostly like a normal kid from a
distance, except that he's a little,

you know, pale and washed out cuz
he's been underwater for a long time.

But like, he has like this sort of
trickle of blood coming out of his

forehead anytime he shows up, which
like is such a quick indicator of

like, oh, that's not, that's not right.

Ivy: Yeah, it's something.

Del Toro Perfects also this
in Crimson Peak later, like he

brings back the floaty blood ghost
and you're like, hell yeah man.

Keep doing it.

I wanna see more of that.

Ben: I saw Crimson Peak first before
this movie, so I'm like seeing the

ghost get, I'm like, I know your tricks.

Del Toro, I saw Crimson Peak.

That kid's fine.

That kid's gonna be an ally.

Jeremy: Not to be a jerk about it,
but this movie's much better than

Crimson Peak, which we've already

Ben: This movie is much
better than Crimson Peak.

Ivy: You can't argue it really.

Ben: up, this is a better movie.

I'm sorry.

Coming of age in the Spanish.

Civil War is more interesting
than fucking Loki does an incest.

Ivy: I'm a Crimson Peak and
even I can't, like, there's no

like to stand on, to say Devil's

Ben: I'm

Ivy: isn't better.

Absolutely better.

Ben: bad, I'm not, I'm not saying
it's a bad movie by any means.

I'm just saying this, this
is not a hard ranking to

Ivy: No, it's not.

Ben: But yeah, so there's ghosts.

We learn way more about, you
know, the characters in the world.

But after Casas goes into
town to sell his weird fucking

Jeremy: this dead baby.

Ben: Excuse

Susan: Yeah, the dead baby juice
was a little bit disturbing to me.

That was like the most disturbing
thing about the whole movie to me.

Ben: that almost felt like he made the
whole movie, couldn't come up with a good

title, thought, Ooh, devil's Backbone.

That title slaps, and then threw a
scene together just to justify it.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Cuz the, the idea is that this,
child died because they have

a, you know, deformation that
they call the Devil's Backbone.

And it's been preserved in this
this mixture that is primarily rum

and spices that the the doctor then
sells to men to supposedly cure their

impotence because guys will drink
anything if they think it'll make, you

know, take care of their impotence.

Susan: He drinks it though.

That was the part that creeped me out.

Ben: well, I mean, that to me was, you
talk about these characters getting.

In Internality and getting to be
complicated here is a guy who knows

its bullshit, is pedalling the
bullshit himself, but even he wants to

believe in it enough to give it a try,

Jeremy: He really desperately
wants to not be impotent.

Like it's, you know, he, he clearly
is, you know, in love with Carmen, but

cannot physically do anything about
it, which she is desperate for somebody

to be able to do something about it.

She's incredibly lonely.

Ben: Jacinto does.

J Jacinto is nice to look at if
nothing el and that is the only

thing that is nice about Jacinto.

after Kaaris goes into town, he finds out
that he sees that One of the loyalists

who brought Carlos to the orphanage
has been captured by fascist in a very

harrowing execution scene that, once
again is not gory, but the violence is

given full impact and
it's just horrible, fine.

Jeremy: because like they don't
show him being shot at all.

They show Casares his reaction to it.

And every time the gunfires,
it's so loud and Casares like

jumps every time it happens.

Cuz it's, it's, you know, obviously
so horrible to watch and you're just

watching him watching it and it's still so

Ben: very effective
use of discretion shot.

It is absolutely a case where not seeing
it as much more effective than seeing it.

I will say though, when they first
introduced like, Ooh, foreign

soldiers are in town, are here.

I did not realize this was
setting up an execution.

And my first thought was, oh shit.

Is this where we're gonna
get a Ron Perlman cameo?

Jeremy: No,

Ben: We got Americans in here.

We, we got English speakers in here.

We is is Perlman here?

I've been waiting for Ron
Perlman, this whole movie,

Jeremy: we know, we know Del Toro's
not gonna let him speak Spanish, so.

Ben: I

Susan: Right.

Ben: Perlman not in this movie.

And while I do believe Ron Perlman is one
of those actors that improves anything

he's in, he probably would've been a
distraction in this particular film

about orphans in the Spanish Civil War.

Coming off of Del Toro doing a
low budget, fun vampire movie.

Seeing him really be able to lock into
and absolutely deliver on a very somber,

serious tone with complicated themes.

I mean, if Cronos was the sense of like,
Ooh, this is a director with potential

devil's backbones, where you go like,
oh wow, this is this is a director,

this is a Spielberg level director.

Like we're watching develop.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Yeah.

I, I think it's interesting too, we
haven't really talked about, there's

like the sort of, I sent to a subplot
throughout the thing of like he is

trying to get to the last of the gold
that they're saving for the loyalists,

which isn't a safe in the kitchen,
which sets up a lot of the like, bad

shit that happens throughout the movie.

Um, Is him trying to get into this safe
and part of the deal of how he's doing

it is anytime he goes to Carmen's room
to sleep with her, he switches out

some of the keys from her key ring to
go try those on the uh, safe and has

not managed to find the right one yet.

Thinks that she doesn't notice.

We know that she notices cuz
she's, you know, looking at

the keys at one point earlier

Ben: Those are two very obvious
elements that I did not connect.

Jeremy: yeah,

Ben: I finished out this movie
going, so what was up with the keys?

And he was having sex.

That makes sense.

So, yeah.

So seeing that one of their loyalist
allies who knows about their orphanage

and them, and the gold has been
captured Kass convinces Carmen that

they all have to leave and they
try to take the orphans with them.

But Jacinto is like, Hey, what if I
take all the gold for myself Instead

Kass comes out with a gun, we get.

A bunch of lines comparing guns
to penises as you know, your

want to do with phallic objects.

And Jacinto is driven away from
the orphanage for all of about five

minutes before he comes and lights
a bunch of gas canisters on fire.

Which then very gruesomely and
tragically kills Carmen a bunch of the

orphans and mortally wounds, kaaris.

So you did get this whole thing of
like the one helper lady just like

trying to fan out this gasoline can
fire for an inordinate amount of time.

Ivy: I know poor Alma.

Jeremy: poor Alma, the other
teacher who is only in like really

three or four scenes prevalently
and decides to put out a gas can

fire by beating it with a blanket.

Just to get blown to
smithereens in that scene.

Ben: they didn't know the gasoline
was poured all the way to the car.

That the car explosion definitely
was off a, but to a certain

extent that death's within the
orphanage still was like, get out

Susan: Yeah,

Ben: the towel's not gonna win.

I think it's time to call it go,
which even Carmen's like, okay,

go Alma is, is whipping that
towel right to the bitter end.

Jeremy: I think Alma's determined,
you know, that it's, it might take

her, but she's gonna do anything
she can to try and save the kids.

Susan: Yeah.

Ben: doing nothing.

The towel's doing

Jeremy: she's

she's

Ben: Grab a kid and run.

Jeremy: now kin is the one who
sees him pouring the gasoline.

And even though she's incredibly
intimidated and still kind of in love

with him at this point, does shoot
him in the shoulder with a shotgun.

You know, it

doesn't, doesn't take him out.

But she, she does her.

Ben: like, ah,

Susan: and, and Carmen's pretty
heroic cuz she's the one who's

trying to get Alma out of there

Ben: Yes.

Oh yeah.

No, Carmen's great.

Susan: with her very heavy leg.

Ben: this isn't a true
criticism or something.

It's just like this movie gave
me very little moments that I

can construe into silliness.

So I gotta, I gotta take what
silliness I could get from this movie.

And it was pretty much like Alma with the
towel and the creepy eye, Jesus statue.

That was way too bloody.

But yeah, so after that COTA uh,
walks like a g to try to get

help from around town and Dr.

Casares, oh, poor Dr.

Casares.

You know, he can't hear anything.

He can't hear Carmen's dying words.

So instead reads her a dying
poem That's real, fucking sad.

And then just lives long enough
to taunt Jacinto and go, ha,

I'm still alive before then.

Immediately dying.

Jeremy: Yeah, it scares
him off for a little bit.

Ben: Yeah, he buys time.

He makes a vow strong enough
to then become a ghost.

Jeremy: Jacinto does come back with
his two henchmen who um, we don't

really learn much about other than
that they are, Both not loyalists

and also afraid of the fascists.

They seem to be just all around bad dudes.

Down to the point that one of them is just
named El Puerco like he's just The Pig.

Ben: He, well, he is, he is.

He is big and literally named Pig.

But we learned he has a brother
in Portugal, so Hey, hey.

No, that's not a character trade at all.

That that's nothing.

Jeremy: It's the best thing
he's got going for him.

He has a brother.

Ben: yeah, so they lock up the kids.

And Jaime kind of rallies the troops to
be like, what if we make, we're tiny,

but spears can be sharp, which is.

Very sound logic and fuck yeah.

How did I not pick up on the
mammoth element from earlier?

Fuck, that's just staring
me right in the face.

I'd like to think I'd have caught
that on a rewatch, but who knows?

And Galvez gets hurt and twist his ankle
and even though he, again, he can just

fucking hop on one leg, it's right around
the fucking corner, let 'em all out.

He just kind of rests, takes a breather.

So, ghost Saaris comes and
opens the door, which I like.

I love Ghost cuz Saaris, that
was a really nice moment.

Jeremy: It's so interesting
that we never see him.

Like we just see like the sort of
same elements we've seen of, you

know, The the Dead Ghost before is
like, oh, you see enough of 'em to

be like, that person is not alive.

Susan: Right.

I guess we just see the silhouette
of him at the end, right.

Ben: Yeah, you see like his shoulder
and like flies and like his his

handkerchief, you can tell where
his ghost is cuz handkerchiefs.

And yeah, so pretty much like when
they can't find the gold, the two

henchmen are like, Hey, you're
a weirdo, creepy loser orphan.

after you stabbed your girlfriend.

And then told us that like, oh, and
there's the whole scene where they're

showing where he is like showing
his, the hench guys his baby photos

and they could not be less into it

Susan: Yeah.

Ben: they just fucking bounce on him.

Really just leaving Jacinto to get,
as we mentioned, sped by a bunch of

small children and then drown, choked
by a ghost, which yeah, honestly a

faith that was completely deserved.

Jeremy: He does, he Does,
find the gold, which ends up

being part of what kills him.

Ivy: Yeah.

It weighs him down.

Susan: Yep.

That's the best

Ben: Ah, that is dramatic irony.

I think

Jeremy: Yeah, the, the, gold is an Alma's
leg, which she sort of tells us earlier.

She is talking about
how heavy her leg feels.

Um, and then, he, he finds it just before
the bad get, before the buffoons take off.

And uh, he's like, well, I'm just
gonna tie this around my belt

and stuff, my pockets with it.

And then he ends up in
a large thing of water.

Ben: I loved the reveal
though, in the leg.

Because like they'd done such a good
job establishing Carmen's emotional

relationship to this prosthetic leg
and her feelings of it that in this

moment of great emotional turmoil and
stress, she says it's heavier than ever.

I didn't think about it that, but then
when you get the reveal that she hid

the golden there, and you think back to
that, I'm just like, fucking Del Toro.

You did it again.

Susan: There's nothing
that he doesn't tell us.

Like he, he plays so fair the whole time.

You know, you even had the histo
with Conchita way early in the

movie, talking about how someday
he's gonna come blow this place up,

Ivy: Yeah.

Susan: you know, his feelings about
this orphanage, then he does it.

Ben: Del Toro managed to make a
fucking cigar ring into an object

of an that of such emotional
weight that Jaime's murderous rage.

Was so sympathetic and
understood by the audience.

And you're with him.

This is a good move.

Alright, so they all die and then
the orphans go to town to find help.

The end to the worst recap I've ever done.

I'm sorry.

Jeremy: Nah.

It was, it was good.

It's a hard movie to recap because
so much of it is like just character

building and this like just being in
this enclosed space where like they can't

go out, they're a day and a half walk
from anything, and it's a war out there.

Like, you know, they're all sort of
locked in here, boiling up the whole time.

Ben: it's great use of setting.

I mean, just the background of the war.

This orphanage, this small
amount of people, and then the

fucking bomb in the courtyard.

I mean, it's, the movie excels
at location and atmosphere.

Like character through location.

Ivy: Del Toro has talked about and I, I
think it's really interesting how layered

this is throughout the characterization.

Also the setting where he talks
about how he felt that, you know,

the Anti-fascists in the Spanish
Civil War felt abandoned by Europe.

Right.

And you hear them talk about that
when Zara and Carmen are like, maybe,

you know, someone will come help us.

And they're like, no
one's coming to help us.

You know, they felt abandoned.

And then you have an orphanage, like
a literal metaphor for abandonment

in some, you know, in some ways.

And it's this very isolating,
abandoned thing that's then

reflected throughout the characters.

You know, Heto feels used and
abandoned, like Santi feels abandoned.

Like it's this very echoing theme
throughout it, which is part

of what makes it such a bummer.

Ben: It's not a happy movie.

Ivy: No.

Ben: I mean, I love, like, let's
Carmen's taunt a prince without a

kingdom that she taunts, Jacinto with.

Ivy: Yeah.

Ben: I mean, she, she calls him
the saddest orphan of them all.

Ivy: Yeah.

Jeremy: Which is true, it's true, but

Ben: Yeah.

Like imagine looking someone
in the eye and going, you, you

are the loneliest boyfriend.

Batman had Alfred, but you nobody.

Susan: I think it's that sense
of it, it's the way that they're

juxtaposing his experience of
being a boy in the orphanage.

And Carlos's, right?

Where Carlos finds his community,
he finds his band of boys.

And, and even Jaime has ultimately
that group, you know, he has

Carlos's acceptance in the end.

And, you know, he has his
little, you know, bully friends.

And then there's this one kid, this
heto, who could just never make

a connection with anyone really.

And just the, the cost of that.

And just like, that's, that's for
me, like I felt so much compassion

for Heto, like right up until
he started killing children.

And then I was like, not so much.

Ben: I mean, remind me of that, you
know, proverb, like the, you know, the

child not, you know, something, I'm,
I'm utterly mangling it, but you know,

something about like the, you know, the
child who's not warmed by the fire of the

village will burn it down for the heat.

Ivy: Mm-hmm.

Ben: You know, something about if a
community doesn't take care of its

own, its abandoned, can destroy it.

I'm mangling the idiom.

Susan: I, thought you just made
it up, but I thought it was

Ivy: That's it.

It's applicable either way.

Jeremy: yeah, works.

I, I think it's interesting the, the
different parallels in this movie

because one that go Deltoro has
talked about is that all of the heroic

characters in this movie uh, are sea
names Carmen, Casares, Carlos Conchita

and there's two that are j names.

There's Jacinto and Jaime, and
they're, they're names, they're

characters who are bullies.

And Jaime chooses to change
and Jacinto does not.

And I, I think that is an interesting
comparison of, of those two is like,

I think Jaime could be Jacinto but
he, he chooses not to be, he chooses,

you know, to care about people.

Ben: Jacinto is, what Jaime would've
been if hadn't brought comic books with.

Ivy: the power of comics.

Ben: Like

Ivy: But I think there is like,
one of the things in this, and

also in Pans Labyrinth, there's
this like fantasy of choice, right?

Like, they are in a situation where
they have no choices in both of

those movies, you know, the war, the
Spanish, civil War, these are children.

They have no effect on this.

And so there's this, like, the
fairytale aspect of them both

is kind of this choice, right?

You know, Jaime makes this choice to
change and like, you know, there's

this choice to stab this guy to death
and try to find your own way out,

even though that's like completely
doesn't make any sense, you know?

You know, there's a choice to help
Santi rather than be afraid of him.

Like I think that's something that's
really beautiful about the way he portrays

children, is he gives them a lot of agency
and a lot of ability to make choices.

And I think that's also
something you don't see a lot

in narratives about children.

And I think that more things should have

Susan: Anybody else think about the
Lord of the Flies when they're standing

there and they're making the spears
and they're standing there with the

Ivy: totally.

Susan: thing,

the thing that struck me about that is

Ben: oh, fucking are any
of these kids named Simon?

Someone?

Susan: right, right.

We, we know there's a pig out there,
but but the thing is, they, they're

not, I mean, yeah, sure they do stab
the guy to death, but it is kind of

in self-defense and they don't, they
don't become the savages that, you

know, the kids in the Lord of the flies
become like they don't turn on each.

And they do defend themselves
against the one monster.

Ben: yeah, I think, I think part of
that is just icon is iconography.

Like I think the idea of a group of
school age boys together with no adults

armed with spears, it's hard to see
that and not thank Lord of the Flies.

it's the mammoth metaphor.

it is a group of weak individuals
forming a tribe together with

which they can defeat a monster or

a

Susan: says when she's teaching them
about the mammoth, when she's teaching

them about the mammoth in class?

She says something, doesn't she?

About about

no one

could.

Yeah, nobody could give up.

Is that what she says?

Jeremy: Yeah.

Susan: No, I just thought of that.

Jesus

Jeremy: Yeah, it's, it's, interesting

because.

Ben: movie.

Jeremy: You know, I, I did also think
of Lord of the Flies, but the other

thing that I keep thinking is like,
the initial setup for this movie is

the same as The Chronicles of Narnia.

That like, there's a war going on and
they're being shipped off to somewhere

else to be safe during the war.

And then they encounter weird,
magical elements at that place.

Not nearly as much fun
as Chronicles of Narnia.

Uh, It's much more, starving
and uh, being killed.

But, you know, it is sort of the
same like, you know, en encountering

this magical world when you're,
you're shipped off because the

adults are ruining everyth.

Susan: I have, I have a question.

Maybe you guys can answer it for me.

What were the grains of strength?

You know, Canta would give
them that little thing.

It looked like communion and
she'd say grain of strength.

Grain of strength.

I could never figure out what
it was she was giving them

Ivy: I don't know.

So part of what I think is interesting,
and I wonder if this hits different

if you're not an escaped Catholic,

Ben: Yeah, I-

Ivy: but um.

Ben: Maybe this is the Jewish
in me, but I just saw that

and I'm like, ah, goyim shit.

Goyim.

Well, I, I don't need to know,

Susan: kinda anti-Catholic, like they've
hidden the crucifix, they've, they've

rejected it and then they bring it
back out cuz they know the fascists who

are the Catholics are gonna show up.

Ivy: Exactly.

So I do, I wonder if it is that, if
it's posing, you know, if it's part of.

Or just adopting the iconography
of Catholicism since they're in

this weird fake Catholic situation.

I don't know.

I've never, in my brain, I
just went, oh, it's communion.

Ben: That's kind of what my brain went
to, but No, you're, you're totally right.

These are, they're like atheists probably.

What the fuck was that?

Goddamn, that's a great question.

Shit,

Jeremy: Okay, so, uh, Guillermo del Toro
has answered this question on Twitter.

Um,

Ben: Nevermind.

We're gonna get

Jeremy: it is

Susan: right.

Thank God.

Jeremy: um, But one grain per
kid was given for breakfast,

so,

Susan: Like a little coffee bee.

Jeremy: it's a little grain of coffee.

Ivy: Hey, green of strength,
I, I also feel that

Ben: Yeah,

Ivy: grain of strength to me.

Ben: makes sense.

Like we, we don't, we don't have, we
don't have Jesus, but we do have coffee.

That's the, the gift of
the mind that checks out.

Susan: Yep.

Love it.

Ben: So, what else do we have to
say about, do we have any other

particular moments or themes we
wanna discuss or should we kind of,

uh, start steering in towards our
uh, final discussion topics there?

Jeremy: I, I did wanna talk about uh,
we've talked about it to some extent

already, but I think this movie uh,
does a great job of, for a limited

female cast being pretty feminist, like
the two female characters who are of

concern in this story, like are both
very well represented and deep charact.

And, you know, as much of a, as much
of a hero as there is in this film.

Like they're, they're both, I mean, Kinta
despite being, you know, older than most

of them there, but still pretty young.

And you know, should, she would be pretty
e even if her ex-boyfriend wasn't driving

around in a Jeep trying to murder her,
she would still be pretty vulnerable

out there in the desert by herself.

But she, you know, takes it on
herself to be a g and go out there

and like, walk a day and a half to
try and get, you know, the rest of

these kids, some kind of rescue.

She, you know, she is also the only
one who, until the spears come out,

puts a, puts a dent in Jacinto, he
does shoot him right in the shoulder

Susan: I like the way that they start
out with both Carmen and Conchita as

being kind of stereotypical, you know,
Carmen's sort of the severe you know,

Orphanage matron, you know, she appears
to be sort of unloving and, and tough.

And then Kinta just seems to be sort
of the demure, as you pointed out

earlier, like the lover of Heto,
just this sort of wimpy kind of gal.

And then we see them, you know, kind of
more deeply as the, the film goes on.

And we see, you know, Carmen
as a fairly complex person.

We see her as a sexual person.

We see her as, you know, this very
conflicted, you know, emotional

person that is very different from the
person we meet at the very beginning.

And, you know, and I think Conchita,
one of the things I love about that

last scene with Histo is that she's
specifically refusing to apologize.

Like there's that, that, that way
that women are constantly having to

apologize to men for men's bad behavior,
and she's just not gonna have it.

Like, that's the thing
she's refusing to do.

That's why he stabs her because
he, he, she will not kneel to him.

And I just thought that
was super powerful.

Ben: I mean, there's a lot to, I mean,
he says you're making a fool out of me.

And that warrants death in his mind.

You,

Jeremy: He's worried about looking
like a fool in front of the.

Ben: Lauren's

Susan: Mm-hmm.

Ivy: A guy named the Pig.

Ben: how, how dare you, me look
bad in front of like these two

got gotta look good for my brows.

Ivy: Yeah.

It's funny cuz I didn't wanna
like the lead with this in

case anybody didn't like it.

This is my favorite movie
ever made by humans.

Um, And

uh, It's a good.

it's a pretty good movie.

So the first time I made my
now husband watch it, when we

finished it, he was like, wow.

I was like, yeah, we were both, he was
like, it's about toxic masculinity.

And I was like, Somewhat, but it's true.

I mean, hen does represent this
like toxic male machos thing and

it's, again, it's that choice.

Like he's chosen to forsake
anything that goes against that.

This is what he thinks he needs to
do to survive in this world that

they're in, which we know is a
choice that people make in real life

when they lean into that stuff too.

You know?

I don't know.

He's got so much depth as a villain,
even though he is also kind of a picture.

Perfect example of Yeah, like that
toxic masculine, like, you're not gonna

make me look bad in front of the pig

woman.

Susan: I mean, I think it's also
interesting that Histo is like almost

the most beautiful character in the film.

I mean, he's just a
very, very beautiful man.

And I just think that what
they're playing with in terms of

like, he's not an ugly villain.

He's not, you know, a
scarred you know, guy.

He's, he represents the sort of, That
sort of beautiful man who should have

everything, and yet he's a pathetic loser
and he can't manage to get anything.

Ivy: prince without a Kingdom.

Jeremy: Yeah, he almost seems to
have a sort of like resentment

that he's not out there in the war.

Like he's bringing the war here.

He's finding people to fight despite
the fact that like he is in this one

place that like, to this point has
more or less been spared from the war.

Like to the point of almost magical
happenings that, you know, that bomb

falls in the middle of the orphanage
and does not blow up is a miracle.

And like he.

Determined to bring that sort of
destruction to this place just because he

can't, he, he doesn't rule it, you know,
he can't have whatever he wants here.

Ivy: Yeah.

Jeremy: I don't know.

It's, it's really interesting.

And yeah, it, the way it deals
with masculinity and toxic versions

of masculinity in particular
is very fascinating to me.

Ivy: And e even Zara kind of
is in that though, like we

were talking about earlier.

Like he's drinking.

Baby punch, to cure his impotence, you
know, because I think that, you know, he

feels he can't be man enough, for Carmen,
like throughout and then you see the boys

being tender and supportive of each other.

You know, it gives a lot of different
nuanced pictures of masculinity, I think.

Susan: You guys think about the sort
of male testing of each other that the

boys do of, you know, when Carlos is
coming back with a picture of water and

the, the boys have got the slingshots
at him and, Jaime's basically, pranking

him when they go to get the water.

And this idea of, boys or men making
each other, prove something in order

to be part of the team in order to
like, be worthy of your companionship.

I mean, how does that fit into the
whole toxic masculinity analysis?

Jeremy: I don't know.

They, they seem to, they seem to initially
have, I mean obviously Jaime is sort of

the linger ringleader in this, that some
of the other kids wouldn't, wouldn't

be doing this if it weren't for him.

And, you know, they sort of fall in behind
him because he's the big, tough kid.

Especially I guess since Santi
died, He has made himself tougher.

But

I,

Ben: taller.

He, he still looks like a stiff
breeze, can knock him over.

Jeremy: I mean that's mostly
cuz it would catch his ears.

I, it was, it was striking me how this kid
who is essentially the villain and this

looks very much like a kid who might be
cast as a weak kid in, in another movie.

I don't know.

He reminds me of somebody.

Ben: he rules by literally
towering over all the other kids.

Like he has a full head
on a lot of these kids.

He is so much

Jeremy: Yeah.

Susan: And they all, they all think he
had something to do with Santi's death.

They're, they're scared of him because
they think he had something to do with

Santi's death that helped, that helps his

Ben: Which,

I mean, the, the movie does play
it like you're not sure, like when

Carlos looks through his notebook and
finds the drawing of Santi of San.

With the head wound, like it's
an effective misdirect or mystery

to the movie as to what happened
to Santi, who really did it.

As it turns out, it's the person
you'd most likely suspect, but they

do do a good job throwing some mrx.

Susan: And they've already
showed you at the very beginning.

Right.

You know, Jaime with the boy, you know,
on, on the ground, like, and running away.

So you, you think you've already seen
the scene where he's killed the kid.

Right.

And then later we see the, pictures.

So that just reinforced what we
think we've already been told.

Jeremy: yeah,

Susan: we're all scared of him too.

Jeremy: yeah.

I think, I think who it is that Jaime
reminds me of is Neville Longbottom.

He just kind of looks.

Susan: Oh yeah.

Jeremy: I mean, even Neville is, you know,
sort of the, the dork of that group who's,

you know, clumsy and, and bad at magic is
like he's still taller and has the same

sort of ears that, that this kid does.

But yeah, I think like that reaction
to Carlos, I, I don't know if it's more

about masculinity or if it's about class
that Carlos seems to come in thinking

that he is better than these kids
at the orphanage, or at least that's

the way they're reading it is, you
know, he's seeing this is a, a visit.

He is with the, you know,
these guys from the loyalists.

He's just, he's gonna go back out
of this and see his dad anytime now.

Um, They're, you know, sort of seeing
that as him looking down on them

Ben: Yeah, they they give 'em
shit about having a tutor.

Susan: Oh yeah, that's,

Jeremy: Yeah, it's the tutor
bit comes back a couple times.

You tutor teacher that?

The other section in this that's really
worth talking about is it's not a real

strong movie on the L G B T front.

There's not only not any sort of
representation there, Jacinto and some

of the boys throw around some slurs
in there too, which are not great, but

probably accurate to, to the characters.

You know, that they, they
would've thrown that stuff around.

But yeah, there's, there's no real
representation or anything to discuss

Susan: No, unless of course we imagine
that Carlos grows up to be a gay writer.

But you know, that's just me projecting.

Ben: I head cannon that,
uh, Carlos takes after Dr.

Casares's example and becomes a doctor.

Jeremy: Oh, you know, Jaime is an artist,
so he's probably just a little gay.

Right?

Susan: Right.

Jeremy: he's a comic book artist.

Who knows?

and apparently he's based on a
lot on the comic book artist that,

Guillermo Del Toro likes that.

I, I think we talked
about a little bit before.

I think IMDB had his name.

So let me grab that.

Ben: I did have to laugh at the scene
where Jaime is like, I'll trade you

your comic for my homemade porn.

It's super realistic.

And then I know this is a kid handing
in, a kid drawing, but it reminded me

of the scene of, it's always sunny in
Philadelphia when Glenn Howerton is

doing, like the cartoon is like drawing
just a big, you know, big sexy lady with

his like stick figure cartoon drawing.

Jeremy: And the, I don't know why it hit
me so funny, but I, I cracked up when

he's, he's showing this and everybody's
complimenting him how good it is and

is, I don't know if it's owl or Galvez.

One of them is like,
yeah, the vagina sideways.

Like, you got that

Ben: That was- I mean, it was both
funny but also kind of, and you're

like, Jaime as this character that.

Does not know as much as he's pretending
to, but will not and will react with

bluster and anger when called out on it.

Jeremy: Yeah, so the, the um, the
cartoonist we were looking for,

the name of is uh, Carlos Gimenez.

And he, he wrote a comic which is somewhat
apparently about his him living in a

Francoist orphanage during the early
fifties um, which I guess was a source for

some of the some of the ideas for this.

And then, you know, he was brought on
to storyboard for the film as well.

is a great way to pay back an artist that
you've been inspired by if you know you're

a, if you're a guy who's making movies,

Ivy: Yeah, that's like uh, Mike
Minola Storyboarding blade too.

Jeremy: Yeah,

Ivy: Another G D T

G D T is the only good comics fan.

That's what I'm learning.

Ben: well, a, as we say in this
podcast uh, the only superhero

movie ever made is Venom Two.

that, that's my personal policy to
avoid the discourse scarier than

any horror movie we've ever watched.

Jeremy: On Blade two, you know, we
have to acknowledge Blade because

we talk about motherfuckers trying
to ice skate a pill so often.

Ben: Yeah, we're gonna have to
talk about Blade at some point.

I mean, I will say Blade is
legitimately one of my favorite movies.

Jeremy: Blade two is especially good
because, you know, Guillermo del Toro.

At some point we'll have to get around
to talking about his comic book movies.

Between that and Hellboy,

Susan: Yeah.

Jeremy: talk about.

Ben: Oh God.

Hellboy.

Especially Hellboy too.

Ugh.

I know it's, but the scene of Abe
and Hellboy drinking in like the

library thing, talking about romance
and relationships and feelings

will just always be one of my
favorite movie scenes of all time.

Jeremy: Yeah.

This is uh, devil's Backbone is the
only Guillermo Del Toro movie in which

neither of those gentlemen appear.

There is uh, no Doug Jones and
no uh, Ron Perlman in this movie.

Ivy: Wild.

Jeremy: Yeah.

One of them is in every other
Guillermo do Toro movie.

Yeah.

And somehow it's still good.

I don't know.

Those, those guys are great.

Ivy: Even without Ron Perlman,
a movie can be watchable.

It turns out.

Ben: I wouldn't have believed
it, but it turns out to be.

Susan: Yeah.

Right.

Jeremy: just have to wait for the, the
remake in which, you know, we cash Perlman

as Casares and I guess Doug Jones can
be Carmen, just pair the two of them up.

It'd be great.

So, I guess that leads to my question
uh, that we always ask, which is do you

feel like this movie's worth seeing?

Would you recommend it to
people listening to the podcast?

Ben: Absolutely.

Movies.

Movies, great.

Ivy: I feel like we know
my answer is a big yes.

Two thumbs up.

10.

10 outta 10 Ivy.

Score for Devil's Backbone.

But don't watch it if you are worried
about seeing violence to kids,

which is something that we talked.

Jeremy: Yeah, that's
a, that's a big no-no.

As I think we've discussed for my
wife, Alicia, is any film in which

there is inherent threat or violence
to children, it's just not into it.

Ivy: Yeah.

Big, big warning for that one.

Yeah.

Susan: Yeah, there really is.

I mean, this was actually my first
time watching it and I thought

it was pretty freaking amazing.

And um, yeah, I mean, I have to say that
I think it's I thought it was better

than Pan Labyrinth, so, and I love
that movie, so I highly recommend it.

I did think it was, I mean, just
cinematically, it was just a beautiful.

And as a, we didn't even hardly talk about
Carlos in the coming of age aspects of it.

And just for that it's, there's a certain
sweetness to it that is pretty amazing.

And when the boys all leave together,
that, that to me was very redemptive of

all the violence against all the other
poor dead boys in the, in the yard.

Ben: it's a very uplifting mo moment.

Like they've gotten in peace for
Santi, they've, slewn, slown...

They, they, they killed Jacinto.

And there's definitely aha moment
in my head going like, uh oh,

ow will still definitely wooed.

And this is a two day walk.

And uhoh like, how is this
gonna turn out for little kids?

But there's also the part of my brain
definitely going like, shut the fuck up.

Don't, it's emotionally resonant.

We're we're feeling emotionally good.

Turn your fucking logic brain
off and enjoy the ending.

Jeremy: Yeah, I think it's, it is
interesting in that respect, and I, I

think it's supposed to be, you know, an
ending that is like, it is hopeful, but

also there's a good chance that these
kids are ultimately doomed because even

if they do get across this day and a
half walk to town, they're still in

the middle of the Spanish Civil War.

You know, the, the place
where they were safe is gone.

You know,

Susan: Even if they survive
the war, they're gonna live

under Franco for decades.

Jeremy: Yeah, they are victorious in
this moment, but there's a, there's

a lot of stuff that's not gonna be
great after this, which I think is

a very Guillermo del Toro moment.

There's a, you know, I mean, that
is ma like, that is basically the

like, climax of, I mean, not to
spoil it, but Pan's Labyrinth is

like, Hey, this thing is great also.

It's terrible.

Um, You have a second of
being hopeful about this.

well That one we're
talking about next week.

So that's uh, something to look
forward to having you dream stashed.

Uh, Ben, do you have anything to recommend
for people uh, coming out of this?

Ben: I don't know why.

I just had to think of
something really fast.

Then Matilda was the first thing
that came to my head, cuz it's also

kids who deserve nice things and not
enough nice things happen to them.

and also supernatural
elements are in both.

So also Danny DeVito.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Kids surviving.

Despite the failure of every person
in system that's supposed to protect

them, I think uh, resonates here.

Ivy: Yeah, I think it's pretty apt.

Ben: Yeah, right.

Never a bad time to watch Matilda.

Ivy: Yeah.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Uh, Ivy, did you have anything
you wanted to recommend?

Ivy: I think that a really good like
spiritual pair to this movie is the others

with Nicole Kidman which is also a very
tragic, kind of captured ghost story.

If you haven't watched that one, I
think it really explores the trauma of

ghosts a bit in a different direction.

It's very interesting.

With time and distance from it, I think
it's a much better movie than people

thought it was when it first came out.

And I know y'all have talked about
this on your show before, but his

house would be another one that I
would recommend if you liked Devil's

Backbone, like a hundred percent.

And then finally I'll recommend
another one of my all time

favorites, which is the 1963 version
of The Haunting by Robert Wise.

Which is an adaptation of Shirley
Jackson's Haunting of Hillhouse,

probably the most accurate adaptation
that's been made which is another

like very interesting psychological
horror that does a lot with really

beautiful, weird cinematography.

Those are, those are the ones I would
say, if you like, devil's Backbone.

Ben: Great picks and yeah,
we fucking loved his house.

Ivy: His house was incredible.

Like, it, it stuck with me for like weeks.

I was thinking about that movie.

Ben: I still can't fucking use a fork
without thinking about that movie.

Susan: Oh, that's frightening.

Jeremy: Yeah,

Ben: No,

Jeremy: a lot.

Ben: the, the, the fork
is not part of the horror.

More just.

Very interesting.

They just very interesting themes
of assimilation, but no, no no fork

related horror, only fork related
cultural practices that make you

think once made aware of them.

Ivy: That movie's so good.

Maybe it's time for a

rewatch.

Susan: I'm putting that on my list now.

Jeremy: Yeah, we just talked
about that in uh, February.

So anybody who is is interested in that
one, checks it out, can uh, go back

and listen to that episode as well.

Cuz that was, that was another
one of those that like, again, we

liked so much that we were just
not even sure what to say about

Ben: there.

There wasn't a lot of
silliness in that one.

There was a lot of like,
yep, that was good.

Let's talk about how thematic and
interesting and complex that was.

Jeremy: Yeah, absolutely.

Ben: we, to be fair, we did
get a lot of mileage out.

Matt Smith's, Rosen, creats
and Gilstone are dead movie

Ivy: I was gonna say, you've gotta
have some Matt Smith, some Matt

Smith bits had to present themselves.

Ben: Oh Yeah.

we, we, talked a lot about how this is
a very different movie when presented

entirely from Matt Smith's perspective.

Jeremy: the civil servant who just feels
like his life is falling apart while this,

you know, these, these immigrants keep
showing up, telling him about this ghost

that's in the house that he got for them.

Like the scene where he is, the
guy is telling him this stuff about

there being a witch in their house.

And Mad Smith is clearly like,
oh, you can't see this in front

of the other guys I work with.

This is definitely not gonna be good.

Is, it's, it's tough.

Ben: Like my favorite moment in the
whole film is when Matt Smith shows

up at the house at the end, and
then just like, oh no, it's fine.

She killed the ghost.

And Matt just has this
like, like, okay, then.

Ivy: Yeah.

Cool.

Ben: this problem fixed itself, I guess.

Oh, good movie,

Jeremy: Yeah.

Susan: So I think my recommendation,
if we're talking about coming

of age in the middle of the war,
anti-fascist films would be Jojo Rabbit.

Loved that.

Um,

Jeremy: seen Jojo Rabbit.

Susan: very different tone and tenor,
but very much I think the same themes.

Um, Love that one.

Not in the horror vein, but um, we
talked about it a little bit earlier.

Just started watching poker face.

Am loving that.

And I think it's

Ben: it's so good.

so

fucking good.

Oh yeah.

Oh, we got fucking Ron Perlman!

Ivy: There you go.

There's your Ron Perlman.

Ben: Oh.

Susan: Yep.

Ben: has at the least one guest star
that makes me go, oh, holy shit.

They're in this episode.

Jeremy: Yeah, the, I think to date my
favorite episode is the time of the

monkey because Judith Light and S
Epatha Merkerson are like so good as the,

like, bonded at the hip, ex hippie, you
know, quasi terrorists, like, they're

so,

so,

Ben: that's my favorite one too.

Susan: Brilliant.

Jeremy: I, you know, I, I love the way
it uses the guest stars in that show in

particular, that, you know, everybody
gets to play a part that you don't

necessarily see them being you get to
see a very quiet, reserved Louise Guzman,

Susan: Yeah.

Ben: gotta say, being given a
whole episode of Tim Meadows

Ivy: Yeah,

Ben: gift to me personally.

Ivy: absolute gift.

What a treasure.

Or a whole episode where you get John
Darnell from the mountain goats targeting

like exactly the me demographic.

Ben: Yes.

Jeremy: I, I, I cheered when
John Dar showed up on screen.

I was like, yes, he's here.

I, I have a hard time recommending
something to go with this movie that we're

not already talking about for all the,
like Guillermo do Toro stuff that we're

talking about and or have talked about.

But I did mention uh, that our, you know,
lead actress in this are Carmen is also a

regular in several Pedro Almodovar films.

It is worth noting as well that Pedro
Almodovar is an executive producer

on this movie that Guillermo was
working on this movie for years.

And it wasn't happening until Pedro
Almodovar watched Cronos and then

asked him to produce his next film.

So I think it's worth tying this
recommendation to all about my mother

Pedro Almodovar's movie, which stars.

Marisa Paredes in, you know, one of the
main roles and is just a fantastic movie.

I, there aren't many Pedro
Almodovar movies that I don't like.

But this one in particular is, is
really fantastic and has sort of that

exploring the interiority of older
women, which, you know, this, this

movie does, which is I think rare.

And as, people go that do it, Pedro
Almodovar is really good at it.

It's a hard movie to explain.

So I'm just gonna read the little I
M D B caption here, which is Pedro

Almodovar's Oscar-winning comedy about a
bereaved mother, an overwrought actress,

her jealous lover, and a pregnant nun.

Which I think gives you a feeling for the

Ben: they all

Jeremy: that this

Ben: into a bar.

Jeremy: Yeah, yeah.

So if, if you haven't seen that movie,
I mean, I honestly recommend most

Pedro Almodovar stuff, but all about
my mother in particular is, is really

good and maybe a little less traumatic
than the other one, which she plays

a major part in, which is uh, the
the skin I live in, which is a very

difficult movie to recommend because
it's a very difficult movie to watch.

We're gonna have to talk about
it here at some point because

it's sort of a horror movie.

I'm not sure if you could
even say that for sure.

That movie's a lot.

Alright, that said that
uh, wraps it up for us.

I do want to uh, make sure you guys
can let people know where they can find

more about you and your work online.

Ivy, can you let people know
where they can find out what

you're up to and, and hit you up?

Ivy: Yeah, so I'm at
IvyNoelleWeir.com and I'm.

Basically every social media
platform at @IvyNoelle.

I feel like I'm pivoting more to Instagram
these days cuz I know how to use it and

Twitter is dying, but I'm on Twitter
still until the ship goes down, I guess.

Jeremy: it's relatable.

uh, Susan, what about you?

Where can people find out more about
you and what you're working on?

Susan: SusanBeneville.com.

I attempt to Twitter every now and then.

But social media wise, I'm
mostly on Substack these days.

Um, my substack is called swirling words.

That's where I'm putting up some
of my web comics personal essays

around being a writer um, and
kind of work in progress stuff.

Jeremy: Nice.

And as always, even though she's
not here, you can find Emily

@MegaMoth on Twitter and @mega_moth
on Instagram and mega moth.net.

Ben is @BentheKahn on their
website in BenKahnComics.com

where you can pick up all of their
books, including pre-ordering.

Elle Campbell wins their weekend,
their debut biographic novel from

Scholastic coming out later this year.

And as for me, you can find me on Twitter
and Instagram @Jrome58 and on my website

at jeremywhitley.com where you can find
everything I write, including pre-ordering

the Dog Knight which is coming out
this May from me and Bree Indigo.

And I'm super excited about it and
super excited about you guys finally

reading it because we've been working
on it since before the pandemic started.

and of course, the podcast is on
Patreon, at Progressively Horrified our

website at progressively horrified dot
transistor fm on Twitter prog horror pod,

where we would love to hear from you.

And speaking of loving to hear
from you, we would love if you'd

rate and review this podcast
wherever you're listening to it.

Giving us five stars helps other
people find the podcast, helps

us get recommended to more folks.

Thanks again to Ivy and
Susan for joining us.

Guys, this was so much fun.

This is such a great movie.

It was great to talk to you about it.

Susan: Thank.

Ivy: Yeah, thank you for giving me
the chance to talk about it cuz I

was recommended to come on here by
my best friend Steenz who I think's

tired of hearing me talk about it.

Jeremy: Yeah, I, I hit up Steenz
and Steenz was like, you need to

email Ivy about this right now.

Ben: we, we are most thrilled to
have you on and telling us about it.

This was a delightful movie to get to
discuss and I'd never seen it before.

So I, I am, my life is now richer
for having seen Devil's Backbone.

Jeremy: Have you seen Pan's Labyrinth yet?

Ben: I haven't.

Jeremy: You're gonna understand
so much more references after

Ben: Right.

My, my partner is very excited.

Uh, She almost never watches any of these
horror movies, but she very much wants

to watch Pan's Labyrinth with me this.

Jeremy: Yeah, I, I haven't watched it
since like the first two times I saw

it, like when it came out in theaters.

So I'm excited about sitting down
with that one and hopefully living

up to the, the deep and abiding
love I've had for it since then.

But you know, who knows?

Maybe my soul will be crushed
next week when you hear from me.

But I doubt it.

Guillermo hasn't let me down yet.

Alright.

Thanks again to uh, all
of you for listening.

Thanks to Ben for being here,
and we will talk to you next

week about Pans Labyrinth.

Until next time, stay horrified.