Jeremy: Good evening and welcome to
progressively horrified the podcast

where we will discuss the standards.

Never agreed to Were talking about
the Rocky Horror Picture Show tonight.

I am Jeremy Whitley.

I am your host and this is my
panel of cinephiles and Sena bites.

First they're here to invade
your house and find queer content

and oh, your favorite movies?

My co-host and comic book writer.

Ben Kahn.

Ben, how are you tonight,

Ben: man?

I want to fucking time wore
it back to the seventies.

Cause everyone is hot as hell.

Back then.

This is such a sexy cast.

Let's go back to the seventies.

Everyone had it going on.

Jeremy: and we picked her up at the spooky
crossroads of animate and sexy monster

media it's co-host and comics writer.

Emily Martin.

How are you tonight?

Emily: Apparently I am the Cinnabon
of Cinnabon Heights, which has very

little to do with this movie, but of

Ben: course the title and you
can get on your business cards.

Jeremy: Our guests tonight, we're
returning guests, artists, friends,

spending the podcast, Ben's partner and
Rocky horror, performer Ameritas, Kathleen

Kathleen: Good to be back and
always good to talk about Rocky.

Jeremy: Oh yeah.

And that, that we are
definitely going to do.

And I also brought with me one
extra guest English educator,

Frankenstein enthusiast, and frequent
comics, editor, Alicia Whitley.

Alicia, how are

Kathleen: you?

Alicia: I'm doing great.

I'm just here

Kathleen: for the

Emily: Frankenstein.

Jeremy: It's a little
bit on our basics here.

The director of the film is Jim
Sharman, who also did shock treatment,

which is the follow-up to this movie.

And the night the Prowler in this written
by Richard O'Brien and Jim Sherman.

Richard O'Brien also wrote to the
original stage play and performed

in it and his in the movie as well.

As Riff Raff it stars Tim Curry,
Susan Sarandon, Barry Bostwick,

Richard O'Brien Patricia Quinn.

Now Campbell, Jonathan Adams
Peter Hinwood Meat Loaf.

We could go on and on.

It's a great cast.

What IMDV says it's about is a newly
engaged couple, have a breakdown and

isolated area, and must seek shelter
in the bizarre residents of Dr.

Frank in furhter.

Ben: Nope.

Swing and a miss, IMDb.

That implies that there was
more plot that there is.

And that description does not give you any
sense of the tone of movie you're in for.

Emily: I am curious about everybody's
first experience seeing this

movie, whether it was in person or

Ben: my first experience of
Rocky horror was I think me

and Kathleen's like third date.

And then she brought me to like a
live theater production of Rocky

Kathleen: horror in San Jose.

Yes.

I think I was yelling at it.

And you were like stop being rude

Ben: to the person.

I didn't understand that.

What are you doing?

You're Groundling

Emily: beautiful.

Kathleen: I'm pretty
sure I saw Rocky on VHS.

I rented it in high school and like,
I was so confused by this movie.

I saw it alone.

I saw in my house.

I had no context.

I had no awareness.

I was like, okay, this movie,
but what's even more interesting

is my second viewing of it.

It was good that I had had it,
seen it once because in college.

There was a girl in my French
class and she's like spending all a

French class talking in French about
how much she hates her ex fiance.

she turns to me and she's like,
you know what, I'm directing

a Rocky horror picture.

So performance.

Have you ever heard of
the Rocky horror picture?

So I'm like, yeah, I think I saw that
movie when she's like, I'm directing it.

You should come and try out.

And I'm like me on stage.

I don't know.

And so like, I didn't even plan to go, but
it just so happened that like one night

I'm getting out of the cafe super late.

And I see in like the dorm across the
street or something like people clearly

like, I'm like, oh, that's the tryouts.

And I walk in and that girl pulls
me up onto the like tryout floor.

And she's like, okay,
y'all got to dance sexy.

We can only have sexy, sexually
liberated people performing

the Rocky Horror Picture Show.

And so we all danced a sexy music in front
of a bunch of like, because you have to

be able to be sexy in front of strangers.

So we did.

And then she was like, okay, I want
you to read the part of Riff Raff.

And I was like, I asked
somebody to say, who is that?

And they were like, it's that?

It's the like the hunchback guy.

I'm like, oh, that guy.

And I read the lines
and I got cast as that.

Jeremy: Nice.

Emily: What was the sexy music?

Kathleen: It was cheesy porn music,
background music from the nineties.

Oh,

Emily: so it was like
careless whisper or whatever

it

Kathleen: was the dumbest.

It was like, bro,

Ben: you started saying
like classic horns out.

And I had a very specific
sound in my head.

And then you said in the nineties
and then like hurl jam guitar got

added to that, like seventies.

Kathleen: I like that.

I'm feeding your imagination and your mind
responds with the repertoire that it has.

I'm just hearing, Boucek

Alicia: a wow out a hung
to donga dang voice.

And it's not, it's honestly

Kathleen: kind of hard to remember.

And while we're talking about
this, I feel like my own memory is

starting to be transformed and I'm
not even sure if I could retrieve.

Jeremy: At least.

What was your experience with that?

With the Rocky Horror Picture Show?

Alicia: Well, I think the first time
I saw the show was in college with you

and some other people, I can't remember
who it was, but we were at the reality.

Jeremy: So going to the live
interactive show is the first time

you'd actually seen the movie.

Yeah.

Alicia: I didn't realize that.

Yeah.

I had never seen the movie before that.

It was like, here's some toilet paper.

You will need this.

What was happening?

I thought we were just
here to enjoy a nice movie.

I was not ready.

They did give us the tutorial beforehand.

I remember being happy that
somebody did throw something and

it hit me and I was not happy.

I did jump up in the
front to do the time work.

I did join in the next line
of people that danced around.

This was my second time seeing it.

And my first time seeing it without
any sort of audience present.

So like, I could actually like pay
attention to what was happening in

the show like, oh yeah, that was
quite an, that was an experience.

So that's why I have two
pages of furious notes.

And I'm currently looking up how to
pronounce a word I'm not sure about.

So

Jeremy: yeah, I think my first time
seeing the Rocky horror picture

was actually with my parents on VHS

I think I watched it like my mom and I
think like I was young enough to not be

embarrassed, just confused at that point.

Which I think is that
the reason I saw it then

Ben: I am the lessons for mama Whitley

first and most important.

How hot is Tim Curry?

Am I right?

Mama

Kathleen: went late.

Emily: That's an agentless question.

Alicia: I think we can all
agree that Tim Curry was,

Ben: it's a fucking
smoke show in this movie.

I, I

Jeremy: believe as we were
watching it last night, I turned

to Alicia and said, Barry boss,
because surprisingly nice legs.

Kathleen: He's a snack.

Emily: It's a snack.

He's like a full meal.

Talk about

Ben: Frankfurt pictures.

His character and him now.

And I can't figure out
how to the same person.

Alicia: I think the basket
is incredibly attractive.

Current

Ben: I'm not even saying
like, he's unattractive now.

Like for his age, I'm just saying,
it's like, oh, I wouldn't have imagined

this young, you face being this old.

And I went to vagina, your old face
having been that when you were young.

Alicia: Yeah.

But both he and Susan Sarandon
are still incredibly attractive.

Emily: But I'm gonna tell my story
about the Rocky Horror Picture Show.

I have three very quick vignettes.

First time I saw it was on video in
South Africa with a family that we

were visiting, who were related to
a long time family friend who had

actually seen it as a stage show.

And she had actually
seen it with Tim Curry.

And as we were watching it,
she was telling us all this

stuff about stuff he would do.

I was in middle school.

I was just on the, like the
wind swept precipice of golf.

I do know that Tim Curry would like throw
confetti out into the audience and stuff

and their audience participation was
like part of the original stage show.

So, that was a thing.

And then we had a weekly Rocky Horror
Picture Show in Sacramento at one of

those little budget theaters called
the birdcage in citrus Heights.

Definitely no longer there,
but midnight every Saturday.

And it, so it was the thing
that we would do in town.

And I started doing that when I was like
a freshman in high school, and I did

it a lot, like throughout into college.

And I managed to see that because
I knew a bunch of the people at my

school who were in the um, in the show.

The group was really solid.

And they didn't have like an instruction
sheet, but they had a guy who

would like call out and prompt you.

It was fantastic.

And then my third vignette is that
I brought some younger friends

that were a part of like my
comics classes when they were 18.

And they were like, I want to check
out Rocky Horror Picture Show.

And I was like, I talked to their folks
and I'm like, is it cool if I take

them to Rocky Horror Picture Show?

And I remember this one person who
was asking, like, trying to figure out

whether their first is their mom was
like really fundamental, but apparently

they're dad was like, they need to see it.

Like they demanded their,
like, they need to see this.

This needs to happen.

as long as you're taking them

Jeremy: you need to know what
wickedness is out there in the world.

Emily: It's a mom was like, I
hear this as an, a cult film.

Kathleen: Oh, oh my God, that's funny.

Classic.

It's

Emily: like, though, it's a cult

Kathleen: classic.

It's fine

Emily: film.

Now that person is this fucking fly as
a dance instructor and Washington state.

So if you're listening to this, you
know who you are, big ups loving.

But yeah, there it's it's
a really fun times there.

I

Ben: think it's fair to

Jeremy: say for y'all it's
a transformative experience.

Ben: Yes.

So question for, y'all really
possible to recap this movie.

Kathleen: I can tell you what my
director told us when someone asked

her, what is the plot of this movie?

But it's

Ben: long shut the fuck up and being gay.

Emily: That's that's the message.

Alicia: Is that the message?

If I have a lot of
questions about this, so

Emily: yeah.

I just want to hear everybody's takes.

Yeah.

If

Kathleen: you cut scenes that are still
in the script, that you can find online

that aren't in the movie anymore.

And one of them is like the song at
the very end about superheroes and

about corruption and about people
becoming corrupted superheroes coming

to feast upon the flesh, not yes,
deceased and still the beast is feeding.

And they reveal this, like dark serious,
undertone about basically about like

corruption and corruptibility and
about how the innocent cannot escape

intact from this world at the very end.

And they have not kept that in the, in
the movie as we saw it, at least I have

seen the movie where they sing that right
after the castle goes into the sky.

And right before the criminologist
says the very last thing.

It's Janet and Brad on the
ground in there sex doubt stuff.

And they have just been like demoralized.

Basically they have gone from
their Bonilla origins to like what

Frank-N-Furter has made of them,
which is like this slutty totally

divergent, totally corrupted, like
no Eve ethics anymore versions of

themselves, which is, I guess the

Ben: awesome

Kathleen: awesome.

Alicia: And they cut that as well,
because that would have been,

yeah that would have been really
helpful in watching this for Dr.

Frank-N-Furter is certainly captivating
and fascinating and oddly lovable,

excess, also jealous, cruel predatory
like all of those things all at once.

So I think the idea of our superheroes
being corruptible, like having too

much power and how power can corrupt,
I think that would have been helpful

for me as far as the message of this
movie goes because I've had so many

feelings in rewatching this, so you're
the expert, so I will defer to you.

But I was hoping that we could do
at least a little bit of a recap

cause I wanted to jump into coming at
this from a British lit perspective.

The, the connection that I was seeing
between the original Frankenstein

and its treatment of gender.

And the story.

So of course well, first of all,
what do you all do about Frankenstein

before I like get into a lecture?

So Frankenstein facts.

Yeah.

What do you know?

Jeremy: He's a children's home

Kathleen: coach, right?

Alicia: Yes.

Next Merry

Emily: heart.

At the husband of her weight, her
hearts, weight, the has weight.

She has her husband's heart and
she carries it around with her.

Ben: Yeah.

That's true.

They, they were pretty fucking
macabre in the 19th century.

They didn't fuck around,
but my Frankenstein fact?

Frankenstein, isn't actually
supposed to be green.

That's just the color they painted
him because the contract looked

the best in black and white film.

Kathleen: That's a good,
that's a good fact.

That's a really good fact.

Emily: Also the Adams
family house was pink.

Wasn't really because of the car.

So

Ben: none of that stuff was designed
back then to be like realistic.

It was all designed to have
like the best contrast on

Kathleen: a black and white though.

Alicia: I assumed it would be like blue
that powder blue color that like shows up

in black and white as like nothing, right?

Yeah.

Emily: There's not photo blue
and there's also, non-photo red.

Like there's an outfitter red

Kathleen: realize

Emily: that.

The more saturated red gets the darker,
it appears on black and white film.

So yeah, red is one of those
colors that really reacts to

light and black and white.

So the Adams family house was
all in shades of pink and red,

but this has other than lurch.

This has a lot to do with
Frankenstein, but yeah.

So the Frankenstein story,
from what I remember.

Which is, I think I did read
it in high school and I have

only, I'm only academically.

I've read about it since what I
like to call academically familiar.

I've read a Wikipedia article.

Um,

Ben: Yes.

Main experience of Frankenstein
was I saw the Royal London theater

production of Frankenstein where
Benedict Cumberbatch was the monster.

And Johnny Lee Miller was Dr.

Frankenstein.

Phenomenal favorite player
I've ever seen, to be honest.

Alicia: Yeah.

Emily, you are going to say
down, what do you remember?

It's okay, well, I, sorry.

I am pardoning you for someone else.

Yes.

Ben: I'm sorry.

MLA.

Emily: See, I, this is very anticlimactic
because I don't remember much.

What I remember most is the adaptation
by Gingy ITTO I read recently.

Kathleen: I haven't read
that sounds awesome though.

Emily: It's really good.

And that's where, Dr.

Frankenstein's like, I have
an idea, something, something

alchemy, I'm going to make a guy.

And, and then the guy's
like this sucks and Dr.

Frankenstein is like,
okay maybe more feedback.

And then he's like, I wanna, I
want a girlfriend or, love and Dr.

Frankenstein's like okay, hold up.

I guess I'll just do it again.

And then hi-jinks and SU
yeah, you pretty much done

Ben: it.

Alicia: So go back with me.

If you will travel back in your
mind to 1815, are you there?

It smells.

It probably does.

It probably does smell a city.

It's 1815.

Mary Shelley is an 18 year
old woman who is married.

She's just like, I think,

Ben: oh, this is a real exciting time
for me, especially, I think I'm finally

allowed in most of European countries.

Again,

Alicia: finally, you're making a comeback.

I still probably a servant somewhere.

So as members

we don't really like to play
the time-travel game that much.

I know that there that's a
very popular question of, oh,

Kathleen: what

Alicia: time would you go back to?

I'm black.

None of them.

I want

to be in

Ben: this one.

I talked about everyone
being hot in the seventies.

When I got back there,
that's kind of my limit.

I can go back to the second year.

Kathleen: That's it deal with going

Alicia: back to Mansa Musa times, but
we get to go all the way back then.

We're probably pretty good.

Ben: I do have a little
thing I can add to this.

One of my favorite podcasts noble
blood hosted by Dana Schwartz.

I actually just recently did an
episode on like Mary Shelley and

the whole summer at the Villa

Alicia: that's exactly what
I was going to talk about.

So I was going to talk about
a year without a summer.

Do you want to take it away

a year without a summer?

So it's 1815 Mount him Bora has
erupted and they were already in a

little bit of an ice age, starting at
about 1810, but mountain Bora really

likes sets things over the edge.

There's Ash in the air,
everything gets cold.

That's the year without a summer
because climate change is a real thing.

So that's the reason why maybe Shelly,
when she's going off with her man,

Percy, this Shelly and her sister, and
they're going off to Lord Byron's lake.

Chalet or whatever.

That's the reason, like, I
think they were in lake Geneva.

That's the reason why they decided
to stay inside and have like a little

hoop could make the best scary story
game because they couldn't go outside.

It was like June or July.

I cannot remember the month,
but it was the middle of summer.

And they decided to stay
inside and like, right.

And tell each other scary stories
because the weather sucks because

there was, it was like a small ice age.

So that was known as the
year without a summer.

That's the reason why
we have science fiction.

Also, Byron is ADA Lovelace, his dad,
which I just learned like two years ago.

So word by is the reason why we have
Frankenstein, Dracula and computers.

Kathleen: Wow.

Fuck

Ben: gee.

Alicia: Yeah.

I mean, he did get around.

He did.

And also one of his kids may have
been with his half sister, but we

can talk about that on another pass.

At another time

Ben: they were so famous.

Like they were the celebrities of their
day, like Byron and Shelley and stuff.

Like they were mega stars.

Alicia: Less people will be talking
about like 10 and Kanye and Pete Davidson

and stuff like, like we're talking,

Ben: honestly, if anything's
going to like survive, like yeah.

It's honestly probably going
to be like fucking Taylor

Kathleen: swift, the Spears.

It's going to be Oprah.

Alicia: Okay.

So we are at this party and Mary
Shelley, she has lost her baby.

So she's been having these dreams
and she writes about having these

dreams about, waking up and her
baby being there and being warm and

her being able to nurse her baby.

And that's where she gets this idea
about bringing things back to life.

Right?

So that's where she starts writing
the story about Frankenstein, who

Victor Frankenstein wants to bring
back things to life because his

mother and the story has passed away.

Okay.

So she writes Frankenstein and
she basically writes the story.

She's a woman, she's a writer.

She's like the first
science fiction writer.

She's a total bad-ass.

And she writes the story in which
all of the women are like me, which

is not, her was not her mother.

Her mother was like frickin Mary
Walston craft and wrote like the

vindication on the rights of women.

This was not the person.

Her dad raised her to be like,
William Godwin always had her

hanging out with other writers
and philosophers and thinkers.

And you know, it was like a
huge feminist at the time.

But she writes the men as selfish,
aggressive, self-aggrandizing overly

emotional, irrational creatures and Victor
Frankenstein's big crime is not just in

doing the whole Satan thing where he's
like, I'm going to be bigger than God.

Right.

He's got the hubris there, but
he also like attempts to cut.

Women out of the process
of birth of reproduction.

So there's all these mother, daughter,
father, son issues in the book that

come to light, but there have been a
lot of trans readings of Frankenstein.

And I don't know if you're familiar
with like Susan Stryker's work.

She wrote this monologue.

She's a professor of gender and women's
studies at the university of Arizona.

But she wrote a, my words to
Victor Frankenstein above the

village of Chamonix or Chemonics.

That's what I was looking at, how to
pronounce can't remember it in 1994.

But basically she talks about transgender
rage and the use of Frankenstein, the

monster and Frankenstein, the creation
who is never named, who is often called

an it, who is often misinterpreted
people look at the creation.

And even though the creation has named
himself, Adam, he is never called by

the name that he has chosen for himself.

He tries to reach out to make
connections with other people, and

they always make assumptions about who
he is based on the body that he's in.

And so she writes about the same
rage that the creation has in

my words to Victor Frankenstein.

Um, So that transgender reading
of, I think the creation.

As being something that is not natural
as being something that is created

by science stitched up sewn together
and looks at it as a different way.

Like a lot of transgender writers
have felt an affinity for what the

creation is going through here.

And unlike in movies, the way that
the creature and whenever I teach

Frankenstein, the thing that my
students are all surprised about

is how the creature talks, right?

Like we all have seen the movie
and how the creature talks, the

creature is always laying, right?

Yeah.

The creature is incredibly eloquent.

Very well-spoken has read, tons of books
has read paradise loss has, educated

himself and writes like beautifully
and eloquently telling his story.

Ben: I would say, that's another
thing I absolutely love about the

theatrical version, where like the
version I saw the monster, it's better

to fucking cover batch, like, right.

You're

Alicia: not going to get the
voice of smell to be like,

Emily: yeah.

Kathleen: He is like, Ella, he

Ben: is this like super eloquent
loquacious philosophy fire.

Like he's

Kathleen: incredible.

Emily: And that's one of the most
incredible things about that story is

that we are not only talking about this
narrative of playing God and defying the

laws of nature or whatever, but we also
have a perspective, a very eloquent and

well-written perspective from an outsider.

And I think there's a lot to be said
about a story about humanity from the

perspective of, it's entirely from the
Monster's perspective, but a lot of

it is outside of a human perspective.

Absolutely.

And I think, yeah, so that's one
of the most incredible things to

me about the Frankenstein story.

And there's a lot, there's a
lot in there, but continually

show I want to hear more about.

Alicia: Yeah.

So there's just, the moment where
the monster basically as Adam

goes to, like, we all know the
creation story in Genesis, right.

Adam sees that everyone
else has a partner.

Everyone else has all the other animals
have someone to pair up with and Adam

is alone and Adam goes to God and is
like, Hey, can I get a buddy down here?

And so depending on

Ben: like, which, oh my God, can
we get a version of the Bible of

this ridiculous, like New York and

Kathleen: can I get a card?

That's okay.

Because whenever,

Ben: how many ribs the guy got
to give up to get abroad down?

Alicia: So whenever I tell like stories
from the Bible to my students, Jesus is

always like super hippy, like guy, my
Jesus character is always like, Hey God,

let's just, you know, all chill out.

But I guess my Adam is like, I
don't know, watching taxi driver,

Emily: which is funny because
Robert DeNiro played the.

Oh, there we go.

Alicia: There we go.

That's the connection.

That's the connection.

Ben: I just really want to do
like super New York Bibles or

is an hour, even if it's genius.

It's like, Hey, I'm Messiah.

And over here is

Alicia: you got to call them a manual.

Okay.

Ben: You think you can get those
apostles working on Sunday.

It's in the union contracts.

Kathleen: Alright.

Alicia: So I was going to
say that, depending on which

story you go with, right.

Maybe God created Lilith first
and made her out of clay.

And she was just who sassy and too
rebellious had to kick her out.

So then he put Adam to sleep.

He was like, you going under,
I'm gonna take a rib from you.

I'm gonna make you a mate.

So the creature to Victor and
was like, Hey, I need a partner.

And Victor's like, all right, I'll do it.

And this is after like fainting
a whole bunch and like being

too sick to like function.

Oh.

And after letting a girl named Justine
justice for Justine, after letting Justine

be unjustly murdered for killing his
little brother, because Victor wouldn't

speak up and say, oh, I actually made
a creature that probably did this, but

skipping over all, that was just terrible.

He thinks about it and he
says they might procreate.

I mean, I know I made them all
out of dead body parts, but

they might procreate somehow.

So I'm not going to do it.

I'm not going to make you a partner.

You tears her up.

And the monster says, I'm
going to get you for this.

But Victor is only thinking about himself.

Does not consider that.

Oh, I'm about to get married soon.

Maybe he's talking about my
girl and uh, she ends up,

Ben: I don't understand
what the problem is.

Like worst case scenario.

It would just be a regular human from
like whose ever like reproductive organs.

You have to dead reproductive organs.

You have no pull out.

Yeah.

I'm pretty sure.

I'm pretty sure they definitely can
reproduce, like you have to worry

Kathleen: about.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I wrote the paper that I wrote
in college when we studied this

book in my English 1 0 1 class,
it was, I wrote about that.

Frankenstein is about womb and V

Alicia: yes.

Emily: Yeah.

So

Kathleen: that explain why, why
Victor Frankenstein is like, no,

you can't reproduce that way.

I have to freaking be
the one who's creating.

I have

Alicia: to have that power not creating.

Then what even is this?

And the book goes, picture goes
on and on about how he wanted to

make the most beautiful man ever.

He had to, he couldn't just make a
little guy that he could take out.

If things go wrong.

Now he wanted him to be eight feet tall.

He put an extra femurs of junk
and I'm like, I don't think

that's how legs work, but okay.

Ben: Wow.

Take care of the Victor Frankenstein
is like horny for science.

And he was like, ah, yeah, doing this.

This is like me impregnating
science, basic science.

Science is a woman.

I'm fucking science

Kathleen: in terms of like, I'm
dominating nature too, is my bitch.

Basically as the man on top,
like, like this I'm the scientist

who's dominating nature sexually.

Maybe

Ben: it's very sexually
predatory feeling against the

personified concept of science.

Alicia: Yeah.

And he's like, I'm going
to make it beautiful.

And he's going to big and he's
going to have all these muscles.

You can have beautiful head of hair.

He's just going to be gorgeous.

And meanwhile, he's busy ignoring
Elizabeth, who is his sister essentially.

Okay.

So to back it up, Frankenstein's
mom was essentially adopted.

She was a ward of Frankenstein's
dad after her father passed away.

And then she always felt bad for poor
people because she had been poor.

So they go visit this family in Italy.

They like to do poverty tours.

That's just their thing.

They go to poor people's houses and visit
them and like give them treats and stuff.

And they're like, that's
her way of giving back

Ben: charity for Victor.

It was like grocery shop.

It was like shopping.

Kathleen: And

Alicia: she goes to this one

Kathleen: house and was

Ben: like, I'm going to
take fat person's arms

Kathleen: But she talks about how

Alicia: she goes to this
Italian family's house.

And they have all these, I think dark
hearty, little vagrants is what he calls

them all of the kids running around.

But there's this one fair haired.

blue eyed, German, noble angel, baby.

That's among them.

And they're like,
where'd you get that one?

And they were like, oh, her
parents were like Nobles.

And her dad left her with
us to go find her mom.

And then something happened to him
and we've just been doing the best

we can, but we're really broke.

And Victor's mom is
like, oh, I'll take her.

I'll take her off your hands for you.

And you can keep your other kids.

And I'll take the one
that looks like an angel

and then brings her home and tells
Victor, I got a little present for

you and presents them with this girl.

And Victor was like, I was a stupid
kid and took them like seriously.

And he said, I called her my more
than sister since, until death.

She was to be mine only.

And then when his mom was on her death
bed, she's like, it's my dearest wish

to see you and Elizabeth married.

And then she dies.

And then he's like, okay, Elizabeth,
he ignores her like to the point

where his creation is like,
I'm going to get you suck up.

And he doesn't even think good.

You know, maybe I should
put some extra security

Kathleen: now.

He does not.

Alicia: It's like a sister.

Ben: Yeah.

Well more than sister.

She has been like sold to their family.

Like, is she enslaved?

Emily: Y essentially like she
was, yeah, like, I'm pretty

sure she was essentially bought.

Kathleen: And this isn't even
the topic of the stories,

Ben: the back, the character backstory.

Alicia: I was going

Kathleen: to say

Alicia: that Susan Stryker also
mentioned Melissa Vista, Matt

who actually committed suicide.

I think in 1994, I want to say,
but one of the things that she

wrote she was a trans woman.

And one of the things that she wrote was
that she felt like Frankenstein's monster.

And this was a sentiment echoed
by some of my own students.

When I was teaching Frankenstein, I had
a trans student who wrote this beautiful

essay about really feeling the S very
similarly to the monster because she

had not started hormone therapy yet.

And of course I teach
high school students.

Right.

So she was going through puberty,
she's growing a beard, trying

to like shave it every day.

Trying to wear her hair in ways
that is more feminine, but like, she

felt like literally everybody sees
me and they don't actually see me.

So I really like, she just really
connected with the creature.

So that was like the first time
that I, thought about how that

must feel and made that connection.

This text Rocky Horror Picture Show takes
a text that deals a lot with gender and

deals a lot with rage and deals a lot with
being unseen and puts it into this story.

And I just, wasn't really
sure where to go with that.

Hmm.

I did want to mention that the writer you
were talking about the writer, Richard

O'Brien, I think in 2016 um, said.

Trans women can't be women.

And all was like, I think that's
what JK Rowling man, like in 2020

was like, just want to clarify.

I didn't mean anything
like negative by it.

Like if somebody wants to be a trans
woman, like more power to them and

I'm so proud of them, like good
for you for standing in your truth.

You're so right.

But you can never
actually be a real woman.

And I just thought that was so interesting
coming from the writer for this story.

Ben: Also, I don't look up to anybody.

Alicia: Yeah.

And you were here.

I wasn't going to

Emily: disappear.

Kathleen: I get it.

Yeah.

Yeah, of course.

Alicia: Not 8 78.

I think he did.

Uh, He said he was also like
70% male and like 30% female.

And he felt like he was in between.

And you know, it's just easier to describe
himself as being like third gender.

It just made life easier for him.

But his biggest concern now, like
post-stroke I think he said was he missed

being able to drink a bunch of red wine
and smoke a couple of jazz cigarettes

and the use of the term jazz cigarettes.

I don't know.

It was funny.

It was funny.

It was adorable.

Ben: That's so old that it's like that.

So like that almost
horse shoes back around.

Alicia: You told me you're going to
go smoke a couple of jazz cigarettes.

I'd be like, ah, geez boys.

It's the coppers.

I don't know.

Ben: It's so old, tiny and quaint that.

Racial undertones.

I want you to like fade away into like
a time capsule, carnival salvation.

Emily: Well, I

Alicia: feel like our

Kathleen: people are
really conducted with that.

I feel like Jewish people, as far as

Alicia: the like jazz
being evil connotations.

I didn't really have anything else to
add about Mary Shelley at this point.

I think like

Jeremy: it's interesting to me because
I think Rocky horror as a show and

as a text, it takes a lot of interest
in the idea of the creatures, not

just Frankenstein, but you know, they
mentioned the creature from the black

lagoon and king Kong and all of these
different creatures that are seen as

monsters that are trying to fulfill
some sort of basic want dinner,

hated and chased off by humanity.

Kathleen: The only

Alicia: problem is Frank
does act monstrously.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Ben: You can further

Jeremy: there's

Ben: you don't Rocky, just
like the muscle they cave,

Kathleen: man.

He's the monster.

Brocky

Ben: the meaning I personally get from
Rocky Horror Picture Show is the meaning

I get from imagery and front moments.

If I look at this story as a whole,
I am no fucking idea what I I'm

supposed to be getting out of it.

Emily: This movie is a celebration
of science fiction from the seventies

And it immediately jumps off there.

And so we're talking about a
post Frankenstein's monster

film adaptation, understanding
of Mary Shelley's Frankenstein.

And that story really paints Dr.

Frankenstein as the Mo
the true monster monster.

Yeah.

I mean, he is,

Alicia: what are the finals that
I give my students is, like this

philosopher, Raptor going, like
knowledge is knowing Frankenstein.

Isn't the monster wisdom is
understanding that he is.

And then I asked them to explain
it because Victor Frankenstein

is 100% the monster here.

Yes.

Emily: Yes.

Ben: Because I think to myself, oh,
what if someone did a story where Dr.

Frankenstein didn't into bed in the
monster, and then I had to remind

myself, then you dumbed down.

That's just young Frankenstein
Frankenstein again.

Emily: Yeah.

Well, but the movie of Frankenstein has
this whole thing where they really lean

into making the monster other, right.

So the evilness of Dr.

Frankenstein has a slightly different
kind of contrast where he is basically

victimizing this kind of creature.

That is just trying to
understand things around him.

And it's sort of the, it's more
like a fucked up parent story.

And you have that, playing God and
the perception of power is really

part of the fucked up parents story.

Ben: I was just thinking like, oh,
I feel like every interpretation

of Frankenstein is agreed that
Victor Frankenstein is the monster.

It seems like where the real distinction
in interpretation has come from is

whether the particular offer thinks that
Victor's original is saying is creating

the monster or abandoning the monster.

Emily: Yeah, that's very pointed.

I

Jeremy: think what I was going to
say is, I think a lot of people have

interpreted specifically the original
film version, which is directed by

James whale, who was himself, a gay man.

As this world in which, Victor is
sort of the society that's created

this monster and then abandoned it.

He's made the creature, what the
creature is and then he literally runs

away and refuses to teach him anything
or interact with them in any way.

And then

Ben: the monster was born this way.

Jeremy: Yes, he was born this way

Alicia: as Tupac would say.

The hate you give little infants fucks.

Everyone is what thug life stands for.

Wait, is

Ben: that where the title of the
hate U give is it from my blah?

That's awesome.

Alicia: Scotland.

The hate U give little
infants fucks everyone.

The creation is essentially made
given tons of hate and then comes

back to literally fuck everyone.

Which is what happens in
Rocky Horror Picture Show.

So that's more literal.

Literal

can know how you would
begin to recap this story.

Like their car breaks down.

They

go

Kathleen: try and find a phone.

I could give a whirl.

We can all pitch in.

So we start off with Brad and Janet
and they are the most normal vanilla.

Yeah,

Alicia: I have a question.

So we start off with friend
Janet as like normie vanilla

couple and like they're getting

Kathleen: married at that church.

And Jack catches the bouquet
indicating that she's next.

Alicia: Yes.

And they're standing there and 10
Curry is like in the background with.

Kathleen: That's right?

Yeah.

They are in the background

Alicia: doing the American

Kathleen: Gothic.

Yes, they are.

They are in the

Ben: back.

And then Brad and Jason engaged, which
if you're going to get engaged at

someone else's wedding, I appreciate
they waited until after the wedding.

Kathleen: Yeah, but that is Frank in
front of Riff Raff, Columbia and magenta

in the American Gothic club disguised
while they are singing the first song,

Alicia: there are no
cupcakes at this wedding.

I know

Emily: cake whatsoever.

Ben: It wasn't even throwing
rice for birds to explode from

Emily: that was a very one size fits.

It was a one size fits all church.

Cause right after the wedding,
they were just turning the flowers

around to be black for the funeral.

Oh, I didn't notice that.

Kathleen: I actually
never put that together.

Ben: I did wonder why there
was a casket in that scene

Kathleen: besides let's go
fuck the guy in that cascade.

Do another whole analysis
of the callback lines.

Probably like a whole
nother layer of the movie.

So like, yeah they, Brad proposes
to Janet and they are like, now

let's go and tell the, our high
school teacher who introduced us.

It was a hilarious thing to
feel compelled to go personally

Ben: high school science teacher
who now chased does UFO's

Kathleen: for the government.

So he lives on the other side
of a spooky forests and are in

wherever the hell this castle is.

So they're there drive
through the spooky night.

' cause they're going to tell
their science teacher from

years ago that they tell their

Ben: parents,

Kathleen: they tell their parents, they're
going to tell this, no matter what time

of day it is, they get right in the condo.

Jeremy: They make a recording
of Nixon resigning while they're

Emily: going.

Which is great.

But it's, we don't know if Brad
and Janet have parents, Dr.

Scott baby, a father figure.

I don't know.

But the important thing is that
this is all after the credits with

the bright lips, the lips and Dr.

Everett Scott is listed as
a rival scientist to Dr.

Frank-N-Furter.

I love the detail.

There's a little bit more going on there.

I never noticed that.

Ben: I know historically there's all
sorts of crazy science rivalries.

I want to know, and I'm
not being facetious.

I want to know who like the fucking
new Yankee red Sox of science

Emily: are.

I'm pretty sure there's something
up there with the quantum physicist

Kathleen: situation.

the theory is probably
up against everybody.

Emily: Quantum physics is like
half philosophical though.

Like half of it, there's a lot of
it that actually, is definable.

But it, it doesn't cause a physics
doesn't really get into this movie

unless you count the Timewarp

Ben: let's do the time warp

Kathleen: again.

Okay.

They break down in the forests.

They see a castle, but castles
don't have phone assholes, but yeah,

we're, we're going to the castle.

Anyway, we go to the
castle and it just happens.

Riff Raff opens the door, they meet
Riff Raff and his sister magenta.

They are the household servants.

They are also active sexual partners,
incestuously having sex with this elbow

maneuver, which is unique to them.

Alicia: Don't worry about
that's totally in keeping with

Kathleen: Frankenstein just saying

Emily: yes,

Ben: because of the slavery
we were talking about.

Kathleen: Catch that before.

That's very interesting.

Emily: So we have the Brad and Janet
and I'm introduced to the castle.

And I think it's important that we
also mentioned the criminologist.

I think the guy

Kathleen: without a neck, he is,
yes, he is between the scenes

reviewing this whole story.

From a later date as though
it is a crime that happens.

Alicia: you know, as a true crime fan.

Yes.

I really appreciate it.

Those specs.

Yeah.

Well, it also creates this kind

Emily: of lyrical narrative where you
have almost like a chorus coming in.

And so this

Kathleen: stuffy, British man, like
the stuffy academic guy who is like

with a neck tie like officiating
this whole wacky story what just

makes the absurdity more extreme.

Alicia: Yeah.

Monty Python and the
quest for the holy grail.

Like that historian who just gets killed.

Emily: Yeah.

This guy doesn't, doesn't
get killed at the end.

He just leaves the room and
you get to hear him tinkle.

Kathleen: Frank-N-Furter, the famous
evil scientist has invited all these

people that he knows from everywhere.

Now in, in our production, these
people were called trainees.

They were the extras
who dance on the stage.

They were all of the people
who are in the little ties.

I know a well has not aged well,
but they were the, they were the

backup dancers in our production
and they were called the trannies.

And they're called referred to as
the trainees, I think in the movie.

And they are the unconventional
conventionalist who are the

fandom of Frank-N-Furter.

And he has invited them tonight because
he is going to reveal his creation that

he's been working on, which is Rocky.

It's his birthday.

He's going to open it up and
turn him on at literally.

And they have sex with his creation.

So he has invited them there as
the birthday of Rocky and the

celebration of another triumph,
because this is not Frank-N-Furters.

First time around that character.

Ben: It's created before,
which is Meat Loaf, but isn't

Meat Loaf supposed to be the

Kathleen: doctors, not,
it was very confused.

Here's the thing.

During the time more Columbia has her
little tap dancing and she's all like,

while I was walking down the street,
just to having a thing where Africa

guy gave me yet, he shipping me up.

He took me by surprise.

He had a pickup truck and the devil's
eyes he stared at me and I felt a change

time meant nothing never would again.

So Frank in front has been going
around hypnotizing, normal people

and transforming that into home.

So she was a normal person,

Alicia: the scratch, but Eddie

Kathleen: Meat Loaf was a person that
he found and transformed and he took

half of his brain and created rock.

Rami has half of Meat Loaf's brain,

Ben: this straight up human transmutation.

Emily: For the longest time I
thought that the ensemble there at

the castle were also from, yeah,
we're from transsexual Transylvania.

Ben: The way I interpret it, if I
understanding correctly and I don't

think I'm understanding fucking
anything correctly is that the

only ones from planet transsexual
and the galaxy Transylvania are

Frank-N-Furter riffraff and magenta.

And they sent the third impact
is Frank-N-Furter the third

Emily: impact.

I wasn't going to go there, but that
thing, that door for me, I actually

Ben: did on galley and

Kathleen: ah, yeah, I didn't

Ben: Jeremy's just absorbing Avon galleon
knowledge, like through osmosis, the way

I do all, everything I know about Dr.

Hale,

Emily: I will say that I
did illustrate for an ezine.

That was a, a ezine about coming out
and it was like if I Gelien themes

and this incredibly talented trans
poet wrote a story about trans rage.

It's very, that has the same
sort of feel to the story you

were talking about, Alicia.

And poem was about this awakening
of something that feels like other.

These days a lot of creators tried to
be really positive in their message,

but, I think it's also important that
we hear these stories of struggle

because it's not, you know, it does
get better, but it's not always great,

you know?

Ben: Well, that's what I try to end.

Every story I write with, and then a
meteor hits the earth and you usually,

the editors usually cut it out, but I
still try to put it in every, for script.

Right.

Just right at the end.

Kathleen: So we already see Brad
and Janet beginning to be corrupted.

We see Janet is being tempted
by things Rocky's hot.

She sees that the Brad is a little annoyed
that Janet's, it's beginning to transform

into wa from the Virgin to the whore.

Cause it's the Virgin horror
complex with Janet and Brad there.

They're taking his clothes off.

Alicia: they're not transforming
they're being forced into this.

Like with the promise

Kathleen: of, we will help
you take off your clothes.

It's a metamorphosis that is
very there are a lot of motive

are definite consent issues.

That is kind of the messed up thing.

It's like, yeah.

Alicia: Like this part of it's very rapey.

And I understand that, you know,
it's 1975 when they made this.

And like we have, I hope progressed
a lot farther in our understanding

of consent since 1975, but them
saying like, oh yeah, sure.

We'll get you a phone.

Just go ahead and take your clothes off.

You gotta, you know, and Brad going,
well, honey they're foreigners,

you know, we gotta, we gotta

Kathleen: do what they're doing.

Ben: So listeners out there, if someone
has to borrow your phone, you can either

give them your phone or say, no, I
don't want to lend you my phone, but

you can't respond with, take off your

Emily: clothes.

And I'll give you this phone

Jeremy: in the philosophy of the
movie, to some extent, Brad and Janet

are also monsters that have been made
by society to like not admit to the

things they want or the things that
their bodies actually care about.

I, what I love in this
section though, is, is Brad.

Brad is so determined to make this a
normal situation that is so determined to

like when he walks up to Frank-N-Furter
and is like, it's great to meet you.

And like,

Alicia: He didn't say,
how the hell are you?

But he might as well,

Ben: frank-N-Furter shows up in a
corset, full makeup on a throne.

And Brad thinks he can handshake

Emily: this

Frank-N-Furter.

He's wearing the Cape and
everything looking like Dracula.

And he turns around in the lift
and Janet is freaking out and she's

like, I want to leave on a leave.

And then she turns out it turns around
and just sees Frankfurter and faints.

That amount of charisma
that Tim Curry is emanating.

I would probably lose consciousness.

I might not scream, but I mean, like
maybe I would, but not from fear.

we're in this castle with Brad
and Janet and they have just

been subjected to the Timewarp.

Now they're being subjected
to sweet transsexual.

Yes.

Now the song I want to talk
about, because I want to talk

about the word transvestite.

Ooh.

Because we talked about the ensemble
cast once being known as tranny,

which is, which is essentially a 1775.

Kathleen: And in the seventies though, I
don't know the history of that becoming

Emily: it was still a slur, but it was,
it was used a lot more like, the same

way that old, the older gay gentlemen
call each other fag all the time.

Ben: I don't know.

I've worried about how it gets when older
generations of queer people are overly

judged by modern standards, especially
when it's judging by modern standard

speech from way, way in the past.

Like the tickets were different,
the language was different.

The way it was used was different.

Alicia: I like RuPaul in 2014 getting,
in trouble for using that word.

And,

Ben: well, that's like
RuPaul's using it in 2014.

if people are digging up like
RuPaul's videos and like 1986.

Yeah.

Judging him by that.

And I'm like, come on.

Emily: A lot of this context I'm
getting, because in 1999 we had, that

was the big debut of dress to kill from
Eddie is art and she, oh, I love her.

Ben: Yes.

Oh, she's so great at ESA.

Emily: And she was, she describes
herself as a transvestite.

And and this is before the
transgender term really took off.

We had transsexual, but we didn't the term
transgender wasn't really utilized in the

public conversation quite as much, you
know, not, not everyone knew the term.

I think her

Alicia: point in, in dress to
kill was, well, I like girls, but

I also like dressing like girls.

So

Emily: yeah,

Jeremy: it's also, I think understanding
of who she is is quite a bit as

well, because at that point, Eddie
Izzard used to dress as a woman on

stage, and then when they were not
on stage would present as a man.

And that has changed since,

Emily: Yeah.

Well, I also think that she had
the fashion inclination and the

identity inclination at the time, but
presentation, especially somebody who

is an actor, it was very complicated.

Jeremy: Because yeah, I think in
almost any case, I can think of where

she was acting at that time she was
playing a male role and dressing male.

It wasn't as as far as I know, she's
talked a great deal about this, so

probably a better to listen to define
that and listen to that then mate.

But I think, her understanding
of herself has changed quite

a bit in that time as well.

Emily: But when we talk about these words,
I think it's also important that, when

at a certain time there is a word that
is the word you use, whether it's, now

interpreted as a slur or not get out.

And the word transvestite
now is closer to that T slur.

And we've mentioned some of these
slurs fully in this episode and, just

for the academic purpose, but I think
it's important to really mention those

because it is so important to this
movies index where, you know, the sweet

transvestite from transsexual transferred.

Lania, it's not just a fun play on words.

It is an a you know, an ownership of those
terms now these days, you know, it seems

kind of goofy and tame and, and campy,
but at the time, it's really important

to talk about how open this movie was.

There's a lot of things from that time
that, that certainly talk about queerness,

but this movie was so game-changing.

Jeremy: I think Alicia and I were
talking about this because she was

editing the nightmare on Elm street to.

Podcast while we were watching this
and it's like, oh, like in 1975,

Rocky horror came out in 1985.

He's playing significantly less in
your face significantly last year.

And his entire career is ruined for that

Ben: part.

Yeah.

I feel like again, like talk
about what a difference it makes,

give who is behind the camera.

Rocky are, is a movie by queer
people like that is steeped in and

deeply beloved of queer culture.

A nightmare on Elm street.

Two is a queer movie made by
people who are actively homophobic.

Jeremy: Yeah.

I tend to be reclaimed.

Like there was no point at which
Rocky horror had to be reclaimed.

And I think it's and I think like
it's interesting to look at Rocky

Horror Picture Show as a triumph
of independent art as well.

And that like this movie was supposed
to have a much bigger budget and be a

lot bigger, but the studio said, we want
to have big rock stars in these parts.

Like they were talking about
having Nick Jagger in this movie.

And the director, Jim chairman really
like fought for having the original

cast of the play in this, moving

Ben: I know Tim Curry had to have
been like, well, I guess it was Tim

Curry, original cast, I guess his

Jeremy: original cast.

This is his screen debut.

Ben: Yeah.

Is this really a screen debut?

Because he is a revelation in this

Jeremy: fell post.

Ben: Oh, Mick Jagger could fucking never

Alicia: right?

You want to have the
makeup and the lip liner.

Ben: Oh, the lip line is incredible.

Alicia: I feel like.

And you know, knowing that you said
that the background characters are

called trainees, so they're also
supposed to be from Transylvania, or I

Kathleen: haven't figured out if
they're earthquakes or not, that

could require more research, but
then they are from transsexual

Transylvania in our production.

They were considered aliens that
were from the planet of transection.

And that's why the Navy, because

Alicia: otherwise this movie
just hits the same tropes of

queer people are pedophiles.

Queer people are predatory queer people.

Are there to corrupt you and I get
that celebrated in this text, but

it's just, it feels a little like I
mean, again, watching this in 2022 and

looking back, is that what year it is?

Could God it's like 1975.

I unfortunately there are so many
super unfortunate did not last the

test of time, age, bad as hell.

And like, even in my own, like love of
this movie and everything that it has done

in my life personally, like recounting
the plot, I have to ignore such like

the massage, Janine, the birds calling
Janet a slack, calling her a whore.

Like I am like literally
like celebrating this movie.

And at the same time, calling this
woman out for her sexuality, and I

know that this is such like vintage
toxic nonsense, and it is so weird

and such a paradox to be like, this.

like tradition that I've been in
since I was like 20 and was very

important in my own like burgeoning
sexuality and liberation process.

And like coming to terms with like, what
was, it was very hard in that moment

to be LGBT at all, into any 2000, the
year, 2000 world from now, we did not

have the sophistication at the top

Jeremy: of the chair.

Emily: Yeah.

If you really look into it, there's
a lot of problematic tropes going

on with the sexual predatory
nature of it and everything.

Ben: I feel like this movie in particular,
this is where the movies kind of

incomprehensibility works in its favor.

Like this movie really invites you
to not think about the big picture

too much and just take each moment.

Like I just got to take it like
each moment in the present.

I don't know, like I feel like a movie
that was more focused on plot would

like really wouldn't hold up more
than just like feelings and images.

Jeremy: Yeah.

I think next, when we talked about
horror and war, it's been more

than a year now at this point.

But are in war, they talk about,
the history of black people in film.

And I think you could make a very similar,
at least first section of that movie

about queer people in film, which is
they talk about how the, you know, the

first times you see representations or.

Actual black people and film it's
as monsters, they are playing

the monsters, they are the other.

And I think that is true of this movie
because not only is it taking place in

the 1970s, but it is referencing the
1950s, it is talking about king Kong.

And it's talking about all these monsters.

And so that Richard O'Brien grew up
seeing himself as these characters in the

horror movies that he was the thing from
another planet that he was the king Kong.

He was at the thing from the black
lagoon that, everybody's terrified

and running away from that's the
first time that he's seeing himself

in a movie is as the monster.

And, in Rocky horror, we're also seeing
that like, he's, Frankfurter is in a

large part that the monster of this
movie representing that same sort

of parallel because they are hailing
back to the, late night double feature

picture show where, these sort of movies

Kathleen: lived very

Alicia: good for the results.

So like Medusa

Emily: at one point,

Kathleen: I think

Ben: there's, I think part of the
peel of queer villains is that.

Village are usually the ones having fun.

So even if there's villainous, there's
something very appealing about seeing

queer people just be like confident
and enjoying themselves on screen

Alicia: Ursula, who I also, and I wrote up
my notes, never did anything wrong ever at

Emily: any point she was legally correct.

Ben: Our Rangers comic just announced
that there's going to be the

first ever nonbinary power ranger.

And it's a villain and they're a
villain called the deaf ranger.

And that's the coolest
fucking thing I've ever heard.

And I've never read them.

And they're my new favorite

Kathleen: character side

Alicia: note.

Speaking of like coolest
things you've ever heard.

I heard deaf

Ben: color.

Kathleen: I was

Alicia: listening to something.

I was watching something and apparently
like black people making animate

characters, black people were talking
about like the night skins I have

gotten hold of this or whatever.

And all of the black anime fans were
like night skins is the coolest fucking

shit you could have ever called me.

And I mentioned this to my
students and they were like,

Kathleen: oh miss Willie,
we're fucking knife skins now.

And I was like, sounds like

Ben: that sounds like a racial slur for a
fictional race from the blade motivated.

Emily: I accept it.

If that drought or for me,
instead of saying the N

Alicia: word, if you want
to call me the night's good.

Emily: Um, the new N word as nightscape

Alicia: But I actually need to
go cause I do have to get up like

super, I have to get up at like
5:00 AM for work tomorrow morning.

And then this one is leaving, so
I'm going to be like, I gotta be

ready to single parent for a little

Emily: bit.

Ben: Well, thank you
so much for joining us.

It's always so much,
it's always so much fun

Kathleen: having you.

Absolutely, definitely.

In

Jeremy: spite of what we were just talking
about does not love the night, this one.

Alicia, where can people find you online

Alicia: I am currently a high school
English teacher, but in short order I

will be a first year doctoral student.

find me at Alicia Whitley where I mostly

tweet about education

Kathleen: stuff.

And I don't know,

Emily: funny names, very
Shelley and Mary Shelley.

Alicia: Absolutely.

Yeah.

So thank you all so
much for having me and I

will see you later.

Thank you.

Kathleen: Definitely we breeze
through the S the synopsis.

I'm just also having
thoughts about like, yeah.

About how like
Frank-N-Furter's intro is so.

Oh, worship the queen.

Whereas like the way Brad and
Janet are introduced is like, look

at these low, look at these load.

Some creatures, like they are portrayed
as like, not who you want to be like

Brad and Janet, as like the hetero,
super normal, they are disgusting.

Alicia: Like we are disgusted
by them immediately.

We want to hate on them.

We are screaming at them and is presenting
them as these normies are horrific

Ben: invading the wonderful sexual world

Kathleen: of rank and file.

Like he put that label asshole on himself.

so it's funny.

It's like, yes, Frank-N-Furter
is the monster, but at the same

time, the movie is siding with him.

And it's funny that the movie
throws in this like, well,

Brad and Janet were corrupted.

Well, the movie, I feel like the
movies on two of two minds about

this whole idea of corruption.

Ben: It's Riff Raff.

That defeats Frankenberry cause like
the movie definitely doesn't treat Frank

in front of his death as a triumph.

Emily: The SOCOM Richard O'Brien
sees himself as the monster.

What do all these monsters have in common?

They have kind of a damsel and I'm
postulating, especially because we

have at the center of this film, Dr.

Frank-N-Furter that the
relationship that is attractive

about the duality of king Kong.

And Farai, it's not that king Kong
just wants love is that king Kong,

the other wants what Favret has.

Kathleen: Cause Frank-N-Furter
singing at that last point.

Sorry.

I,

Emily: yeah, I know like that's
the thing is that this is an idea.

Kathleen: Whatever happened to Fe read
that beautiful set in draped frame

as it clung to her thigh, meaning her
dress, how I wanted to cry because I

wanted to be dressed just the same.

Emily: Yeah.

And there's a, there's a an attraction

Kathleen: there because there's, he
wants to be dressed just the same.

Yes.

Jeremy: we have no question that
that's like Richard, O'Brien speaking

as, as writer and narrator there

Ben: again, the end of the movie is Rocky
takes Frank-N-Furter and then throws him

over his shoulder and then climbs the RKO

Emily: tower.

Yes.

Ben: It's

Emily: not saddle.

Like we do have this idea of
special because Rocky and,

Frank refer to get married and
go to their portal or whatever.

But the, it's not just like, I
want to have sex with this person.

It's I want to embody this person.

And this is a big, important
thing for the understanding of.

And queer relationships and understanding
that the relationship between sexuality

and identity and the difference and
the similarities that are in that

really, really complicated set of ideas,

Kathleen: I feel like historically,
we've had so much confusion and we

still continue to be sorting this out.

The difference between gender and
sexuality, between wanting what you want

to exude and what, how you want to present
and who you want to be with and who

you want to be romantically versus sex.

Actually, we didn't have
any of this vocabulary like

before really super recently.

Emily: yeah.

When I was in high school, I was asexual,
but I had no frame of reference for that.

If I try to establish myself
as asexual, it was treated as a

joke or a challenge, you know?

Yeah.

Right, right.

But

Kathleen: yeah.

Yeah but still that's like some
more of the misunderstanding really.

It's like just like mixing things
together and it's been that way.

If I like going off of some of
what we've touched on before

Ben: and ever get cute, though.

You meant you were capable
of asexual reproduction.

Like I made sexual it's like,
so you can just make a new,

like a baby just by herself.

Like, that's crazy.

Emily: I didn't have the
word asexual, honestly.

Like I, in the nineties,
I did not have the word.

I was like, I would not in these words.

Yeah.

It was later in college when that
was like really challenged and yeah.

Kathleen: Well,

Ben: you don't look like
Batman's canine companion.

Kathleen: Yeah.

There has been historically we're
only just now getting to the place

where people have clarity on the
freaking difference between even

trans gender and just cross dressing.

Just even just like, Movies in which the
serial killer is a man who dresses like

a woman and the other characters refer
to that person as transgender or trans.

Yeah.

Well, I

Ben: like to go to carry the, in that
example is silence of the lambs, but

that movie has this whole like relined
thing where it's almost like this

disclaimer where the like Buffalo,
Bell's not a real transgender person.

This doesn't, this doesn't count.

We're not being transferred, I guess.

Like, I mean, it's better than not having
this claim like this disclaimer, but

I don't think this is going to blunt.

Jeremy: The impact ACE Ventura
is more transphobic than silence.

Emily: A hundred percent

Ben: is probably the single
most transphobic film I've

ever seen in my entire life.

And I saw it a lot as a kid.

Kathleen: I remember people coming to me
like when I was in high school and this

would have been in the nineties and they
were like early nineties and I was young.

And like, they're like that movie was
the end of that movie was so gross.

And I was like, yeah,
cause everybody's vomiting.

That was really gross.

And they're like, no, that's
not what I was talking about.

The, what he did was, and I'm like,
oh my God, even then I was like,

oh my gosh, there is no space for

.
Ben: It was the gross part.

Dan Marino cameo.

Great appearance by Dan Marino.

Jeremy: One of the,

Ben: in the T in the tear of John
Marino, Ken and films, I think

this is the first and last film.

Jeremy: There's this, and then
there's, you know, grandfather and

there's something about Mary, right?

Yeah.

I don't know.

I think it's interesting because
you also have, movies that are

trying to do something like the
crying game, which like, has.

It's definitely the first
portrayal I remember seeing of

a trans person where they are
portrayed as is a, a good person in

Ben: a movie,

Jeremy: but also it also has
somebody vomiting, as soon as they

see that somebody has a penis.

So,

Kathleen: so many shows the vomit.

Yeah.

Yeah.

In

Ben: terms of a movie from E olden
days that deal with trans issues, but

don't include vomiting when people
learn about people being trans.

But again, it was, and it was
also because it was a true story.

A dog day afternoon.

Steve physio or something of that.

But yes, and they are robbing
a bank to try and get money.

So, Al Pachino knows girlfriend
can have a gender reassignment

Emily: surgery.

Yes.

Ben: Oh yes.

And that was also dug the afternoon
also 1975, just like that.

Okay.

John Kinsale who only appeared in five
movies before he died, all five of

which were nominated for best picture.

Emily: Wow.

Kathleen: Yeah.

And like I'm reminded, the Frank-N-Furter
canonically has a giant Dick.

I mean, he has a Dick, we can clearly
see and, and they're referring

to it throughout the movie, at
least in the callback lines.

So I mean, we're referring to him as
a sweet trans best state in the song,

but that's not, like it's, again,
it's confusing, I've transgender.

And cross-dressing, from

Ben: my non-binary perspective,
there's a very appealing androgyny

and blending of gender expression
that I find very appealing.

Kathleen: That's I think the thing
it's like really he like Frank-N-Furter

just seems like beyond gender.

Emily: Yeah.

Well, Frank-N-Furter.

I mean, I used the, he him

yeah.

Yes.

Yeah, but there's, there's, there
is the the presentation situation

there that is also the fact that
he is able to somehow perfectly

disguise himself, both physically
and with the voice as Janet and Brad

So I really want to, I want to roll
on through the rest of the recap

here so we can talk about some more.

Um, so, uh, He seduces both
Brad and Janet successfully.

Then riffraff chases, Rocky off Janet
and Rocky then have a, of sexy times

in Rocky's like incubation tank.

Yeah.

And that's touched

Ben: me nothing to look into there.

No, nothing deeper to

Emily: shut to while Columbia and Magento
watch and make out with each other.

So for them, yeah, but like, that's the
thing he says, this movie nights 75,

they were making out with each other
Brad was spread Eagle under Tim Curry.

Like there, they show that it's in.

I finally see it in HD where you
can actually see to make up through

the, the the sheer curtain, but
before it was just silhouettes.

But, and, honestly the way that this movie
presents this, I think is really important

because it wasn't like a gasp moment.

It was just part of a greater
narrative that was funny.

And it wasn't different.

Like both Brad and Janet have
almost exactly the same lines.

Jeremy: Yeah.

And they, they both agree to
it without much hesitation.

Once it becomes a question of like, oh,
well my partner won't find out well, they.

Kathleen: Those like scenes in the
current context is like, oh man, that

does not that does not age well, that
age well, and it, it makes me think of

just like how, like that was seen as only
seduction and nothing else when, like,

we were looking at this movie in the
like end of the nineties, like, oh yeah.

And it's just like, oh man.

So many times I'm just reminded of
just the degree to which the like,

just it's this rape culture, basically.

That is like, it's part of that.

It's just like the normalization of
things, which we would now consider

like, like there were things which
behavior, which in the nineties

would be like, just like, yeah,
it was just sex and nothing more.

And now we would be like, no,
there's a thing called consent,

which needs to happen, which
was not even a thing we talked

Emily: about.

Yeah.

And when you talk about this person at
your class at your French class, like

I need only sexually liberated people,

Kathleen: which is an

Emily: interesting thing because in the
seventies you have the, this idea of

sexual and in the sixties before that
with like hippie movement and everything

is this idea of sexual liberation where
you just have to fucking forget it.

Yeah.

And there is a violent
rejection of these ideas.

And then that, because it's such
a violent rejection and because

it just is completely going
in the opposite direction, the

idea of the ceremony of consent,

Kathleen: it was seen as prudish
at that moment seen as regressive,

because it was seen as no you're
holding back this letting go sexuality

that we want to pour ourselves into.

And that's part of the resistance.

It's not the entire resistance,
but it was at least what the excuse

for the resistance towards it was.

I think the reality was like, there was
not just readiness for equality yet,

but definitely the excuse was delaying

Jeremy: in 75 would have seen a
difference between, that first

moment where, a Frankfurter is, is
pushing themselves on the person.

And that moment where they accept it,
because like in both cases, they willingly

accept sleeping with Frank-N-Furter.

But it is very clear in the movie
that previous to that fragrant

for her has already sexually made,
moves on them that are not, not

limited to laying down and kissing.

Emily: Yeah.

And the symbolism, the symbolic
language of this movie being a cartoon

that it is, feels more or less like
characters, there's the complexities

of actual relationships going on.

It is more about, the, these
ideas hitting each other.

And, but what I want to talk about
with that particular sequence

is that Brad and Janet react to
Frank-N-Furter exactly the same way.

Also, Brad, doesn't say anything
about Frank-N-Furter being a dude

Kathleen: inter right.

He doesn't even, he's just like, well,
if you won't tell, Janet's only qualm he

Emily: has.

Yeah.

And that, I think that moment
for me, because actually that is

where right before that, that is
where I started watching the movie

when I saw it the first time.

It was so suddenly like, oh no, one's
vomiting and no one's freaking out.

Yeah.

This is just like, Dr.

Frickin fritter is seducing
both of them because it's not

gender or sex or whatever.

Like, it doesn't matter.

It's just, you have an attractive
person at attractive person.

Kathleen: It's a mirror Semit symmetrical
across the two genders, which in

itself was like radical for that.

Emily: Yeah.

And so after that we
have the discovery of Dr.

Scott coming in discovery of

Kathleen: yeah.

Dr.

Scott arrives.

He has somehow heard about Frank.

Celebration he's there because he has
heard about, he has been hunting down

Frank-N-Furter for a long time, because he
is aware that Frank-N-Furter is an alien.

And that Frank converter is working on a
a weapon of a anti-matter and something

that he himself has been working on.

And he's an ex Nazi working for the
United States government, which is

a situation that there were Nazis.

He is an operation paperclip person,
and he has hidden from his previous day.

So he just happens to show up on the
same night that Brett and Janet just

happened to have broken down in, which
just happens to be the birthday of Rocky.

Don't worry about it

Jeremy: to be living for
his nephew, Eddie, who is

Kathleen: recently deceased.

Yes.

Very recently deceased.

He is just very just a
little bit too late to say.

Ben: I have one thing happened
when five things can be happening

Kathleen: a lot of time.

Emily: Yes.

Because basically right after that, they
realized that they're eating Eddie at the

dinner scene and then everybody is got,
turns into stone and then they turned back

from stone and now they're all fantastic.

And I show the other floor show

Kathleen: Marsha was this very,
like, out of like, it's almost Metta

in its way voters, like now we're
going to just perform together.

Yeah.

I like

Ben: the plot and work backwards
from its starting point of how do we

justify an underwater burlesque orgy.

Emily: Yeah.

So they have a floor show
and everyone is in a corset.

Everyone is in splash
fish nets, including Dr.

Scott.

And how about, I don't know if he's in
a corset actually, but he is definitely.

And everyone's doing the turn
turn, kick turn, then they

have their underwater orgy.

And then Riff Raff and magenta show
up and show their true colors and

Jeremy: alien

Ben: costume.

Yes.

Great.

Like seventies

Kathleen: Saifai.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And they are dressed as Transylvania ones.

Yes.

There as they are, like, we are
done with this planet and we are

done with working for you, Dr.

Frank-N-Furter, your
lifestyle's too extreme.

We are going back to Transylvania
and it seems like Griff

Ben: wraps real motivations
that he thinks nobody likes him

Emily: also that

Jeremy: he's in love with his master.

It seems.

Yeah.

And specifically it seems is
supposed to be making this weapon

that they're there to investigate,
but he has gotten sidetracked with

Kathleen: all of this sidetracked
and guess who has the weapon?

It's Raff, it's a beam
of pier and time matters.

Trident gun.

Emily: Yeah.

Let's try that gun that he shoots
anti-matter at Rocky and he just shrugs it

Kathleen: off back of steel.

Yeah.

Back of steel also.

Emily: Anti-matter I'm
not sure how that works.

Quantum physically

that's so puff.

Yeah.

Dr.

Frankfurter is destroyed tragically,
and a lot of this for show comes

from this like low moment and Dr.

Frank referred her where he seems to be
trying to just force ahead his progress.

It is like, kind of a Swan song situation.

And he falls dramatically
into the water and Rocky picks

him up and tries to save him.

And then, the ship, the castle
flies back up to go back to their,

their planet needs them or whatever.

And then we're lucky

Ben: falls because while he is anti matter
proof, the tab where he is calling me,

Kathleen: not, I think

Emily: he's not the RKO now.

And also this floor show has a
backdrop that says an RKO radio

picture, which is basically like,
we're talking about that fifties.

The way that this movie is so self-aware,
and so like so much of a self-parody,

especially like right down to the acting
where Susan Sarandon and what's the

name of the guy that plays by Carrie
Bostwick, total gorgeous, gorgeous,

gorgeous, gorgeous people, and both just
hamming everyone, hams it up perfectly.

Everybody is playing a character.

That is a self-parody.

So, you know, in a way I feel like.

The overt, like, sexuality of these
characters and that sort of forceful

old time you bromance, which is actually
assault situation is also just like an

analog for this is an idea, or this is a,
this is just like how the criminologist

talks about emotion and how it takes
over and all this kind of stuff.

And so it's less of a, an idea of
somebody getting literally violated

and more of like, somebody's
getting their world opened up.

Hey.

Yeah.

That can definitely be a
very problematic parallel.

And I think this movie is, is just
dumb enough that it, it kind of skirts

for me, but I also know because I've,
I've done like so much watching of

the the documentaries and stuff.

Like I have that much.

Yeah.

Of understanding of that text.

So like, it's totally valid to be
like, this is really fucking Raby.

Kathleen: Yeah.

Yeah.

One thing that the Rocky Horror Picture
Show has that other movies don't is

it has this potential to grow beyond
itself and to like acquire layers

that aren't in the original movie
because of, they have the layer of the

callback lines and the callback lines
are this evolving, like colossal like

quite like a repertoire of things that
you say that you yell to the movie.

And like, I know a fair amount of them.

I do not know all of them.

And I don't think anyone actually does.

I was researching the callback lines just
to like refresh ones that I had forgotten.

And there are.

A lot of different like whole
scripts of callback lines that you

can find, they have different ones.

They're regional.

They, some of them are updated with like
Justin beaver in them, which was not in

the all original old school callback line.

So they are evolving and they
have the potential to evolve.

A lot of messed up stuff is
in the callback lines, like

calling Janet a slut and so on.

And a lot of like this sort of like
toxic past is lingering in them.

But there's a potential
because the callback lines are

not embedded in the moving.

They're not embedded anywhere.

You have to hear them spoken in order
to learn them or go online and read

them on a script on a Wiki page and
then like practice them with the movie.

They're not something that is recorded in
a way where there's not a single stone.

Yes, it does all tradition actually.

And it's a morphing one.

It's not, there's not a
concrete, single tradition.

There's a few that are well-known,
but that doesn't mean anything.

There's none.

None of them that like
need to stay as they are.

So that's like an evolving layer of texts.

And the second way that Rocky horror
can evolve is that it's also performed

with human beings in front of the movie.

And those human beings can be
any type of body that you want.

And they are performing the movie and
they can write a different movie and they

have a lot of like ability to like just
make adjustments visually to the movie

that's on the actual screen, ma like
do commentary feed back, make it like

modern living people like with agency to.

Have a dialogue with what is
frozen, what is already said

and done on the movie screen.

And another way is it's also
like a Broadway show, right?

We have productions out there
and in the Broadway show, I

mean, it's not the movie at all.

It's a whole different thing.

Once you get into like people just
singing on the stage with not the

movie in the background is the
movie, but it's not the movie.

And so you can recast people like,
like we've seen different genders,

different races, different body types.

so Rocky has ways that it can evolve and
have modern people have a living dialogue

with it, which a lot of movies don't

Emily: have.

Yeah.

And that's a really important aspect of
this film because a lot of people not only

saw these new ideas in the movie which
were just about it as in your face as Dr.

Frank-N-Furter coming in and,
and giving you a smooch, but

kids are taken off your clothes.

Kathleen: Right.

Emily: Sometimes that's like
just seeing the scene of for some

people of Tim Curry, like on top
of a Brad, is that like, oh, okay.

But also there are these people that
are exploring these characters and

these roles, and there's no real, like,
it's not a, it's not a play standard.

Like these were all just independent
troupes of fun-loving people that,

were just freeform, and there were
some stuff I'm sure there's like in

any independent group of community of
niche interests, some, I'm sure some

things happened that weren't great, but
a lot of people had a space to explore

identity and gender and sexuality
and all of these different things.

Like our the group that I mostly saw in
Sacramento was called under sedation.

And they, instead of doing the
dinner scene, cause they were like,

we think this scene is boring.

So instead we're just going
to play, spin a dildo.

Yes.

They played spin the dildo and then
they would like, if it was like spin

the bottle, but it was a dildo and they
would give each other little smooches.

And then I know other other folks
would in for the the silhouette scene,

they wouldn't actually interface
with each other behind the not that

they were, there was any sort of
intercourse or anything like that.

It was just like, yay.

But some of them would use Barbies
and do projector and use Barbie.

So there's like all of this crazy
creative stuff that's going on.

That is just, this little jump,
like jump off point for, you

know, not just acting yeah.

Jump into the left.

So, is this movie feminist.

Oh,

Ben: wow.

Yeah.

We talked about quizzes.

I don't think this movie
is particularly feminist.

Kathleen: That's really
an interesting question.

Ben: there's certainly themes around
queerness and gender identity, but in

terms of like actual feminist themes
or the way women are treated in this.

I towed the thing particularly.

So

Kathleen: I could see
that I could see that.

Give me an

Jeremy: address is the concept of female
sexual liberation in a clumsy way.

Also I do appreciate the fact that
in this movie unlike a lot of the

movies, which it would be parodying
Janet is given the, the freedom to

be the only one in the couple like

Ben: Brian, the Janet gets what she wants.

J that's the most, this part,
honestly, Janet, just being like,

well, screw this I'm going to sleep
with Rocky is probably, might be by

the most feminist part of the movie.

Yeah.

Janet's reclaiming of her sexuality
and taking control, even if it's yeah,

I guess it's, well, I guess it's more
consensual for Rocky than it is than

it is with Frank-N-Furter, or like
for Rocky, it's more consensual Janet

than it is really for both of them.

It's more consensual each other
than it was when Frank-N-Furter.

Jeremy: Yeah.

It's really just a question
of whether all my hours old

totally buff man with very little
intelligence is capable of consenting

Emily: for the ages.

Ben: I mean, look, he had half
of me loves brain, so he had

at least a quarter of a brain.

Emily: Oh geez.

But the song also, the song
touched me is so joyous.

It's one of the more like happy,
upbeat songs in the movie.

That's like the transsexual song
is very light line and like last,

Ben: hi, I love him agenda

Jeremy: and Columbia singing along to it
as they're on the monitor, but they are

like, they start, they started out making
fun of her, but they really get into.

Kathleen: Yeah.

The movie passes the Bechtel test
because they're talking about Janet.

Yeah.

Emily: Yeah.

Ben: All right.

We passed the back tail test.

Congratulations.

It's feminist

Emily: feminist barely passed the bus.

Like that's a, that might be a D
minus, just because most of the,

all of the women in this movie,
it's still passing, but that's yeah.

That's what I'm saying.

Yes.

Very thank you.

That was good.

Ben: Yes.

Emily: The fact that all of
the women in this movie are

in a relationship with a man.

Yes, they're also in a relationship
with Frank-N-Furter, but they're

also like Columbia loves Eddie.

Magento loves Riff Raff.

Janet loves Brockie and Brad know,

Ben: well, I get two
out of three ARD incest.

So I

Emily: tell you

Ben: just one D that's a 66% of
relationships in this movie are not

Emily: incest.

but that's what I'm saying.

D minus.

Yeah.

Kathleen: I think that the diversity
of bodies amongst the unconventional

Unconventionalists is a strength because
they are portrayed as like fun people.

Like they're not, they are portrayed as
like, they're all wearing these like fun

bow ties that are all rainbow colors.

And they're dancing.

They're happy.

They're partying, they're
having a good time.

And then they all do the time or.

And and have the Timewarp group sex.

I feel like there's body
diversity that you get to see

Emily: them.

There's also, they're supposed to be
the scientific community essentially,

cause this they're good unconventional.

Conventionalist like, they're here to
sort of be part of the forum to which Dr.

Frank-N-Furter is, is presenting
as if this is a dissertation,

because this is like

Kathleen: the room that
they're going to have sex with.

I

Jeremy: have it set up as
an anatomical theater kind

Kathleen: of.

Yeah,

Emily: that's right.

If we take it to an extreme, you
know, we could also see it as a

representation of like aristocratic
interesting deviance, but

Kathleen: yeah, we talking about classmen.

There's that?

Rich weirdos comments.

Emily: Yeah.

Yeah.

So there's

Kathleen: a collage for Richard

Emily: weirdest.

Yeah, but yeah, I like the idea
of the DVN aristocrats, and then

also these these characters in
a castle and stuff like that.

I think that that's more of a meta
commentary on, on monsters in the

fifties films and where they exist
in terms of the relate-ability to

queer audience, but distinct point.

Yeah.

That's where I'm coming from.

But again that is that is about class.

We can't ignore that.

That's true.

And Brad and Janet are suburban.

They're not, they're very,
literally middle-class.

Ben: Yeah this movie explores the
differences between the middle

class and the castle class.

Yeah.

Emily: And the motorcycle class

Kathleen: motorcycle glare the the
convention, the Unconventionalists

come in on those motorcycles.

That's what the motorcycles are about.

They all arrive on motorcycles
like two per motorcycle.

Emily: And Brad describes
them as thinking that life was

Kathleen: very cheap.

Yes.

For that type.

Emily: Yeah.

So Brad and Janet are not,

how

Ben: much can life be?

Really be worth like $8.

It's just a life.

Michael, how much could it be?

What, five, $10

Emily: and this economy.

Ben: Hmm.

No, I'm pretty sure the value
of life is the only thing that's

gone down in this economy.

Kathleen: Oh yeah.

He lives in a world where
he has a maid and a Butler.

Emily: Yeah.

I mean, it is a kind of

Kathleen: maiden Butler though.

They're not real.

There, there is like spaceship.

It's just a movie

Ben: about the working class,
rising up to kill their boss

Emily: a little bit.

Kathleen: Actually.

There's a little bit of that vibe when
RIFRA rises up to kill his boss, he's

master his, he calls him master the whole

Emily: time.

Yeah.

Yes.

Bye bye.

And

Kathleen: Kraken.

Fotor whips him and beats him.

That's right.

Even

Emily: though they're all the same,
like they should be all the same.

I mean, I dunno how class works on

Kathleen: trials.

Yeah.

Like they're playing this pastiche
of that relationship, the whole

movie long, and then either riffraff
rebels out of that, or they reveal

that it was a kind of play the whole,

Emily: when

Jeremy: riffraff comes back at the
end, gave him no longer hunchback.

He is no longer playing this part
of the servant is, he is an alien.

They are in theory, aliens playing a
part from a horror movie that they have,

Kathleen: they're acting in.

Yeah.

Emily: Well, I mean,
riffraff is literally Igor.

Like he's sat tonight.

He's playing I-Corps

Kathleen: At the end here,
I'm your new commander.

So he's just taking charge of the mission.

Emily: Yeah.

Oh, but he's so sees such a pretty
he's the prettiest Igor there ever

Kathleen: was he's the best ego

and yeah,

Jeremy: I think it was, and he was
playing a hunchback and Richard

O'Brien is so freaking tall,

Ben: like, oh yeah.

It's so rare for a hunchback to still
be the tallest person in the room.

Emily: Character just makes it
such a character actor thing.

It's great.

Um, Race, there are three people
who are white um, and they're in the

background and they might be aliens.

Right.

Ben: And that's a discussion of race.

So, uh, do we recommend, we see this movie

Emily: quote, my S my student and
now friends, dad, you have to see it.

It's a story.

It should,

Ben: it should be required viewing.

Kathleen: And I would highly recommend
seeing it in a context where you can

hear people scream at this movie.

Ben: Yes.

Try to see it in a public setting.

This is not one for.

By yourself at home.

If you can help it, this is go to
a show and go to a live theater

production, like see this with people.

Kathleen: I think you could see it
once alone just to see the movie, but

then it doesn't, it probably won't
make sense unless you see it and it's

where it was intended to be seen.

Yeah.

Emily: I would recommend seeing it
with somebody who knows the callbacks.

Kathleen: Yeah.

Emily: But

Jeremy: somebody who will be

Kathleen: gentle

Emily: with you yes.

Someone has to be gentle
and will prepare you.

Yeah.

Like, you could see it at home or in
the theater, with the ensemble cast.

But like, for me, I mostly watched
it so I could practice the callbacks.

Kathleen: Yeah.

Yes.

That's how I watch it these days as

Emily: well.

Yeah.

But I'm watching it for this podcast.

I actually felt a particular kind
of joy and really just kind of

appreciating it because it's not
an expensive movie and that shows,

but it's still is really well-made.

It

Ben: has so much hard, like hard is
just like in every frame of this movie

Kathleen: is so iconic

Emily: and that there's that bit
where Frankfurter is extending

his gloved hand slowly towards.

And it's so good.

and it is, it is completely different.

Like this is after sweet transvestite.

So it's a completely different
kind of like, look of the character

because, we see this character
out of just larger than life.

And now they're just like some
weirdos, like, Hey, what's up after

they've after he's like, rejected.

Brad's like, how the hell are you doing?

So there's a lot there.

Jeremy: If nothing else is worth
watching, just for Tim Curry, just

acting his ass off and doing an accent
that doesn't exist in the real world.

It's just like going for it,
like just deciding on this

character and making it happen.

Let's do recommendations.

Yes.

Yes.

Kathleen, what have you got, do recommend

Ben: wait, well, everyone
likes this movie.

Is there anything else
you'd recommend for them?

Kathleen: Hedwig and the angry inch?

Emily: Oh, that's a good,

Kathleen: yeah.

Jeremy: Emily, what have you got?

Emily: I am going to go with Phantom
of the paradise, which is Brian de

Palma Phantom of the opera take with

Kathleen: a lot of this wacky

Emily: wild shit of the seventies.

So, yeah, that's it's a crazy one.

Ben: I am going to recommend
venom, let there be card.

It is dumb and gay, same level.

There's no musical moments like
God I'll imagine F then oh, I

hope venom three is a musical

Jeremy: separation anxiety, the musical

Emily: it's it's venom
from transsexual translate.

Ben: I believe that is the plate of
the Symbio it's in the trunk okay.

Jeremy: Alicia obviously
recommends Frankenstein.

That's her recommendation there?

the one thing that was on my mind as
I was watching this, and as we were

talking about sort of the rage expressing
itself in, in parts of this story I am

currently reading a book called iron widow
it is listed as teen fiction as wild.

That's a wild listing.

Because it is a book that does in the
first four chapters, what you're expecting

it to do in an entire trilogy of books.

Like it had so much like this character
in it has just so much pent up rage and so

much going on in this story that like, you
think, you know, where the book is going

and like three chapters in it's already
past that point and you're like, oh,

what the hell is the rest of this book?

You know, it's, it's a wild ride and
it's just it's been a joy to read.

It's fantastic.

Definitely recommend

Kathleen: it.

Emily: Yes.

It's, it's very influenced by anime,
but it's like more, it's so much more.

And it's like, if you took a lot of the
cool ideas from anime and then fixed it,

like took out the shit that bothers you.

Jeremy: Yeah.

The character is sort of taking
out some shit on her society.

And I think you can very much feel
Sheeran behind the scenes doing

the same thing with their system.

Just like, what if this
animate didn't suck?

What if this thing wasn't terrible?

What if there wasn't like all of this
horrible misogyny and all of this stuff?

What if we burned it all down?

See, I I've read a good chunk of
this and I've read also the graphic

novel Squire, which we'll talk
about another time this weekend.

And they both have a very, let's
just burn it all down and feeling.

Ben: Yeah.

Squire's very good.

Awesome.

Yeah, definitely reads

Jeremy: by and Squire was one that
I sat down with thinking I was

going to read like a chapter and
a few hours later, I had read the

entire 300 page graphic novel.

Yeah.

Well, that's that's all for us here.

Kathleen, can you let people
know where they can find out more

about you and your work online?

Kathleen: Pretty much my Instagram,
which is at conscious dust.

No,

Emily: I am just so dope.

Dope

Ben: artists.

Jeremy: you can find Emily at mega on
Twitter net mega underscore moth on

Instagram and@megamouth.net that is
on Twitter, then the con and on their

website@benconcomics.com where you can
pick up oh, Including the brand new one,

mortals, Phoenix, rays, and graphic novels
from great beginnings and the glad award

nominated Renegade rule graphic novel.

And finally,

Ben: we have a brand new, it is
super appreciate at least a year.

I tell them

Jeremy: like, and finally for me, you
can find me on Twitter and Instagram

at J road five eight, and on my website
that Jeremy whitley.com, where you

can check out everything I write.

And of course the podcast is on Patrion
it progressively or fight on our

website@aggressivelyhorrifieddottransistor.fm
and on Twitter at Prague or pod, we would

love to hear from you, speaking of loving,
to hear from you, we would love it.

If you would rate and review this
podcast where you listen to it right

now, it helps us find new listeners
and help spread the good word.

And we would love it if you do that.

Thanks again so much to both Alicia
and Kathleen for joining us tonight.

This has been a ball guys.

Kathleen: Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Thank you for having me.

Thank you so much for coming on.

Thank you,

Emily: Dr.

Frankfurter.

.
Kathleen: I love it.

Jeremy: And thanks as well.

Of course, too, Emily and Ben, and
thanks to all of you for listening

and until next time stay horrified.