Ben: I mean, it's a great story.

You got Ishma and Qua.

Who historians say
we're very good friends.

Carrie: They were roommates.

They slept on the same cot or No,
they didn't have cos they had like-

hammocks.

Oh, that's so cute.

Ben: Oh yeah.

No, the Ishma qua relationship
is fucking hashtag goals.

Carrie: It's beautiful.

Emmanuel: What you Need to write is
a novel that just focuses on them.

Carrie: Actually.

Emmanuel: it's Just like a buddy
romcom while like whale nonsense

is happening in the background.

Ben: Honestly, I feel like that
could probably get green lit.

Carrie: And they're both
shit talking, captain the

Emmanuel: asshole won't let this.

I know, right?

It's weird.

E. C. Martin: Just make sure
you get to it before uh, Taika.

Carrie: Yeah.

Taika might get to you first.

E. C. Martin: Yeah.

Jeremy: Here.

Find a better shift name for them.

Ish.

Ish.

And both.

Sound bad.

Emmanuel: It make you
sound a little bit drunk.

Carrie: Yeah.

Jeremy: Sounds like it's a slur.

I'm sorry.

Ben: Yeah, queen definitely
sounds like a, A slur

Jeremy: Ish Qug sounds like.

Ben: ish.

Ish quake.

Sounds like a Battlestar Galactic, a slur.

Emmanuel: Oftentimes
I'll own this podcast.

I'm just like, Alicia's
gonna cut this part out.

This is gonna be like the front part.

Carrie: No.

Jeremy: All right.

You guys ready to talk
about Pans Labyrinth?

Emmanuel: Let's do it.

Carrie: Yeah.

Jeremy: right, clap.

Good evening and welcome to
Progressively Horrified the podcast

for we hold hoard of progressive
standards that never agreed to.

Tonight we're talking about the
Guillermo Do Toro masterpiece

of Creepy Cinema Pans Labyrinth.

I am your host Jeremy Whitley, and with me
tonight I have a panel of chil and Cytes.

First, they're here to challenge the
sexy werewolf, sexy, vampire binary.

My co-host Ben Kahn.

Ben, how are you?

Ben: All right, y'all, and
when I say y'all, I mean y'all

like the other panelists.

You the listener, the film Press, my
own life partner have spent the last

16 fucking years straight up lying
to me about what this movie was.

Carrie: Oh.

Ben: I have watched this
movie for the first time.

I have spent the last 16 years being
told, oh yeah, no, it's a fantasy movie.

Yeah.

It's got like the war, like you know,
the Spanish period wars, like the framing

device and the fantasy lies fucking lies.

This is not a fantasy movie
with a war framing device.

This is a war movie with
a fantasy framing device

E. C. Martin: Potato.

Ben: Everybody's talking
about, Ooh, the fantasy.

The fantasy and them creatures.

That is like fucking 20 minutes of a
two hour movie that is mostly spent

straight up being about fascist Spain.

Jeremy: Uh, Where the horrors in
this movie might surprise you.

E. C. Martin: Not click bait.

Jeremy: Yeah.

And, and also our co-host,
the semi of Sino Bytes.

Emily Martin, how are you doing at Emily?

E. C. Martin: I'm doing good.

This movie, I think it rained less in this
movie than it did while I was watching

this movie, so I'm just pointing that
out for an index of when I recorded this.

Jeremy: Yeah.

After you escaped the frigid
mountains of California

E. C. Martin: Yeah.

God,

Jeremy: your trip through the snows?

Ben: We broke the planet.

E. C. Martin: apparently um,

Ben: I mean, it's pretty obvious.

This planet is broken,

I don't think

it's the

kangaroo's fault.

E. C. Martin: are

fucked

Emmanuel: Just turn it off and turn it on

again.

Carrie: we just gotta

unplug

it and

then plug it back in.

Jeremy: from Emily's description of the
last week in California, I can only assume

that it's been wall to wall horror movies
happening somewhere in California because

it only like rains or snows in California
when there's a horror movie going on

there.

Carrie: Have you guys
seen that movie The Core?

Jeremy: Yeah,

E. C. Martin: were they going?

Yeah.

I haven't actually seen it.

I just know that the, the, the trailers
on TV summed it up perfectly, so I'm

like, all right, I don't need to see that.

I know what happens.

Carrie: it's uh, it is a mess.

Ben: does geo storm
count as a horror movie?

Carrie: I don't know.

Jeremy: I don't think it

E. C. Martin: probably just,

Jeremy: at all.

E. C. Martin: it's not valid.

Jeremy: And tonight we have
two returning guests with us.

First up, you've already heard her
returning to talk about more Gimo Deltoro

after hours of talking about Loki's butt.

When we talked about Crimson Peak.

It's Comics, Raider, and
artist Carrie Tupper.

Welcome back, Carrie.

Carrie: thanks for having me, you
guys, and I do not regret a second

of talking about Loki's butt.

It was a thing of beauty.

E. C. Martin: It was,

and it is.

Carrie: Thanks, Jeremy.

Ben: here we only have macho fascists,
who I am definitely worried are

gonna fall into the satire paradox.

Emmanuel: I think that's
pronounced macho, fascist.

There's a lot of fascists.

Ben: There's a lot of fascists.

Jeremy: fascist,

E. C. Martin: Hey.

Jeremy: you just heard him.

At this point, he must be one
of our platinum level guests.

Is that a thing?

Do we have a frequent
guest rewards program?

Well, if we do English educator, Emmanuel
Lipscomb is definitely part of it.

Welcome back, Emmanuel.

Emmanuel: Thanks.

I'm putting that on my resume.

This movie Rules, it's got my
boy Doug Jones in it and that

dude doesn't even speak Spanish.

Carrie: Yep.

Jeremy: He's in here twice.

E. C. Martin: He doesn't have to.

Not in this movie.

Jeremy: Doug Jones, the human special.

Ben: Again, I'm not going to be
fair or objective to this movie cuz

I am still living in the critical
dissonance of what I spent the last

16 years thinking Pan's Lab riff

Emmanuel: Are you sure
you weren't thinking of

Ben: Lab actually is.

E. C. Martin: That's a

Emmanuel: you were just
thinking of David Bowie.

Ben: goes no cuz everyone, because
all people talk about is the

little girl and the fawn creature
and the man with the hand and

Mitch McConnell with the hand eyes

Carrie: Okay.

I'm really glad that you mentioned that.

He looks like Mitch McConnell,
cuz I literally wrote in my note

this Mitch McConnell looking ass.

Ben: The, yeah.

Emmanuel: Verbatim.

E. C. Martin: I think I just
thought they were the same person.

But that's unfair to Doug Jones.

Carrie: It is unfair to Doug Jones.

It's actually, maybe it's a compliment
to the practical effects guys.

E. C. Martin: That's true.

Carrie: Part of me wonders if they
were looking at mix Mitch McConnell

Ben: I thought it was gonna
be like, okay, this is the

background, like what's going on?

The is gonna be allegorical to
the terrible thing she's going

through, in the real world.

Or it's gonna be like our
framing device to then fall

into like a total fantasy world.

Not like, Hey, check out the
main character's babysitter.

She's gonna have more screen time.

E. C. Martin: I

mean,

Jeremy: this movie does fall a
little bit into the Guillermo not

Toro trap of naming people things
that are important and literal.

Like we have another Mercedes
as we did in Kronos, We have a

Carmen you know, which means song.

We have a vital, which means life.

he really loves to put it
kind of on the nose with these

Emmanuel: Ophelia, the girl that dies.

Jeremy: Yes.

E. C. Martin: Ophelia, nothing

Jeremy: Oh, feel that means

E. C. Martin: to anybody named Ophelia.

Emmanuel: As an English teacher,
I would never name my pedophilia

like.

Ben: Like most of this movie is
following Vidal and Mercedes.

And I'm not saying that's
in any way a bad thing.

I'm just saying, I've been hearing people
hype this movie for 16 years and no one

fucking told me either of them existed.

E. C. Martin: We don't want to remember
the tragedy, although, you know Mercedes

Ben: They're where we, Mercedes is where
we get the wish fulfillment of this

E. C. Martin: Yeah.

Yeah.

Ben: It's I sure as fuck not with Ophelia.

Jeremy: Oh, Mercedes is
definitely, like we just talked

about Devil's Backbone last week.

She's definitely the Conchita of
this movie, but she wins, like she

actually survives and, and cuts the
dude up in this one, as compared to

Cita, who was just like, no, fuck you.

Kill me.

Fine.

Ben: I mean, as much as I love, like
everything that is the fantasy element,

like of it all, like as the whole, I just
can't help but prefer Devil's Backbone for

just being a more focused story, I think.

But overall, again, I'm not objective.

I'm fucked up feeling, don't
worry about anything I say.

That's fine.

If you're mad at me being weird and mean
to this movie, my opinions are weird and

bad and have a bad context deal with it.

E. C. Martin: am I to assume that this
was your first time seeing the film?

Ben: This was my first time seeing it.

E. C. Martin: Okay.

Ben: I had been spoiled.

The ending.

E. C. Martin: But I mean, we are
kind of spoiled the ending in the

first few minutes of the film.

Let's be real.

Ben: I mean,

Emmanuel: Did Tarantino

Ben: and Kathleen.

Yeah.

Like Kathleen was very like,
Oh, I thought that would be like

the big shocking moment for you.

And I'm like, again, Vince spoil.

But also I'm like, the movie does
tell us this is a fairytale about

the princess of the underworld
going back to the underworld.

I mean,

E. C. Martin: mean,

Ben: it's not that hard to piece together.

Also, this movie, again,
emotionally has a problem where,

sorry, you know, we'll get to it.

No,

E. C. Martin: okay,

Ben: After recap.

After recap, I'm sorry I've
gotten too much on tangent.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Emily is doing the recap for this one.

So, Emily take it.

E. C. Martin: let me open my app.

Okay.

So Pans Labyrinth.

Director and writer, GMO
Deltoro starring Yvon Baquero.

Arianna Gill, Mari Tuque.

Lopez.

Lopez, and Dr.

Jones, as we have said so, our
story begins in Spain, 1944.

The fascist regime is hunting
resistant spiders in the mountains.

We are introduced to
our pro protagonist op.

She is an imaginative and bookish
young girl, which is too bad because

she's traveling into the mountains
to live with her fascist stepdad

in a military camp intending,
intending to root out the resistance.

Fascist Captain Vial is a typical
misogynistic anal reten of

glove wearing military autocrat.

Ophelia's mother Kaman is as Ophelia
puts it sick with a fascist baby

whom everyone presumes is a son.

But it's not all bad.

The mountain base is surrounded with rat
agent pecan stone efes, including, but

not limited to a whole ass labyrinth.

Also, someone is introduced
a very non-native sick insect

into this biome, stick.

Insects are also cool, but don't
bode well for a native wildlife.

We meet Mercedes, the
matron of the help, and Dr.

Fe, both of whom are sympathetic to
Ophelia and presumably the resistance.

The captain thankfully, does
not share a bed with Komen.

He is too busy brutally murdering
innocent farmers and pretty

much anyone who is suspicious.

Meanwhile, Ophelia comforts her unborn
brother by telling him some tragically

beautiful allegorical fairy tales.

Oh, but what's this?

The potentially invasive stick insect
is actually a literal fairy better.

The ferry leads Ophelia into the
la the rad labyrinth undercover

of night to meet an agent Fawn.

He immediately recognizes Ophelia as a
lost Princess Moana daughter of the king

of the underworld, and last, despite
the presence of many lo monoliths in

this film, the Rock does not appear
the following tasks, Ophelia with

several side quests to prove that her
mystical essence is intact so that

she may return to her true kingdom.

She is given a blank book, which
shall in time show her what she

must do before the moon is full.

And we start with Quest number one, place
three magic stones in the belly of a giant

to in the grease of a tree, and don't
ruin your pretty dress while doing it.

This will save the ancient fake
tree and reward you with a key

item, which is in fact a key.

Jeremy: I'm pretty sure this one
is from Legends of Hidden Temple.

E. C. Martin: Yeah.

I'm pretty sure we got this one in a
Legend of Zelda as well, although it did

not involve the tow turning inside out is

Ben: that does happen in metro.

E. C. Martin: Yes, that's
that's an important point.

The dress is in fact, ruined and so is
in each chance of impressing the stepdad.

That's not a total loss,
but it makes mom sad.

Meanwhile, the captain has dinner
with a bunch of his, of deplorables

intent on judging Carmen, including,
but not limited too, a priest who

is totally cool with genocide.

We get some backstory about Videle and
his watch, which he's obsessed with.

Before Quest two can begin, Cotman
has a hemorrhage, and Ophelia can no

longer share rooms with her Mercedes.

Comfort.

Ophelia, who admits that she knows
Mercedes is helping the resistance.

She promises not to out Mercedes because
A, she likes Mercedes, and B, she hates

vial because see, she is sensible.

This is confirmed based as she sneaks
out with the doctor to help her brother.

And lager is the found.

Comes to Ophelia this time giving her shit
because she hasn't done Quest two yet.

And she says it's because her mom is sick.

What she, what can she do?

So she gets Quest 1.5, place
of man root in milk under mom's

bed to help her get better.

Oh, and feed it your own blood.

That's important.

So now we get Quest two use items,
fairy key and chalk to create a

portal to the home of the pale
man, AKA a Mitch McConnell.

I'm pretty sure this is actually
Mitch McConnell's house Complete

with little shoes on the floor.

This is a Times Quest though, and
you cannot by any means, touch

any food that is your one job.

You well that end use key to unlock
the right portal, no left portal

to acquire the key item dagger.

However, Ophelia does
in fact touch the food.

The pale man wakes and hungers
for child flesh chasing her.

She barely escapes and loses
two fairies in the process.

And this is.

Helping her track record at all,

Jeremy: the juiciest grapes.

I was like, this is no problem.

And then I saw those grapes
and I was like, man, those

grapes do look fucking good.

Emmanuel: As well.

Cause I was like, they
probably have seeds in them.

I don't want those.

Ben: Some real attack on
Titan vibes when he eats them.

Fairies.

Emmanuel: Apparently
they were blood condoms.

It said that in the trivia for the movie.

So enjoy that.

E. C. Martin: I didn't know that.

Well, another one for Doug?

Jones.

Ben: Yeah.

Doug Jones.

What a fucking legend.

E. C. Martin: For real.

All right.

So meanwhile, explosions happen.

The resistance gets are going on
the offensive and distract vita,

while whilst attacking the mill.

Uh, Taking the rations from the mill base,
Vidal's suspicions, Mount r e, the doctor

and Mercedes, the military gives chase
and catches the member of the resistance

group who stutters vid threatens
torture through ableism, torture ensues.

The found returns to Ophelia is
pretty pissed about losing the

ferries because of the grapes.

The deal is off.

No more quests, no
returning to the UN world.

This is pretty severe.

And speaking of severity, Videle
calls the doctor to treat the tortured

freedom fighter and the doctor grants
the prisoner's request to be killed.

Vial discovers the man under Carmen's
bed, disrupting her magical recovery.

Conman, throws the root on the fire,
and then goes into premature labor.

Fidel confirms the doc is not
on his side and shoots him.

Just in time to Miss Carmen dying
in child Perth, Viel threatens

Mercedes who then tries to escape
off into the night with Ophelia.

They're caught.

Things aren't too looking, too hot for
Mercedes as vi prepares to torture her.

But his plans are foiled when she uses
a knife from the kitchen to free herself

and then stab the shit out of him.

But Alai is not dead.

Mercedes is pursued into the
woods, but life does find a

way as a re resist resistance.

Fighter save the file returns then
into a desperate and hopeless Ophelia

locked in her room and offers her
one more chance to complete Quest.

Number three, kidnapping.

Her hit and fit.

Brother Vi is sadly not too stabbed
to, to shit, to so up the joker

smell that Mercedes gave him.

As he does so, Ophelia uses
item chalk to infiltrate his

room to get access to item baby.

In the process she used the bonus
item vial to poison Fidel's.

Liquor Ophelia's, almost Ophelia,
almost accomplishes Anai impossible

stealth challenge with baby in her arms.

But explosions alert
Vidal to her infiltration.

He chases her into the labyrinth.

Fortunately, the Labyrinth
magically opens to for her to

make a straight shot to the found.

Upon approaching him, Ophelia
discovers the rest of Quest.

Number three, drawing the blood
of an innocent i e her brother.

This is suss as hell.

So she, she declines Vidal then reaches
her, shoots her, and takes the baby.

He is then greeted by
the entire resistance.

Gives up, gives up his son to
Mercedes and her gorgeous brother.

They take the baby and
kill his fascist ass.

Mercedes comforts Ophelia and death,
but her own blood under the full moon

indeed opens the portal and her soul
returns as the princess to her rightful

home and family in the underworld.

The end.

Don't name your kid Ophelia.

Ben: So with this ending, another
reason why my perspective and attitude

on this movie is again, unfair and
weird enough kilter, is because this

scene, this ending that my life finder
thought would leave me like just

a sad wreck did not realize that.

Like just the movies that we've
watched in lead up to this.

So instead of being sad about the dead
child, we get to the underworld and

my only attitude is, ah, hell yeah.

Loopy is back.

We got loopy is king of the underwear.

Fuck yeah.

Loopy going three for three this month.

Loop.

Jeremy: Plays, plays Ray, the king of
the underworld, who, you know, if, if

you guys have listened to the other
ones, he is vampire grandpa in Kronos

E. C. Martin: It's right.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Jeremy: yeah, and

he's, he's dead doctor man.

And in uh, devil's Backbone,

Ben: how am I supposed
to be sad about dead kid?

Whoopie is here

E. C. Martin: I mean, she's dead.

Ben: and she gets to party with loopy,

E. C. Martin: I know, but I

still cry.

Jeremy: I very distinctly remember
watching this the first time with a

group of friends and like having opposite
reactions is they were like, oh, she died.

It's so sad.

And I was like, no, she
made it to the underworld.

Like, I know that's like, that's like,
oh, is this something she's imagining?

Who the fuck cares?

Like in her imagination, she made it to
this place and she's, she's the princess.

Now.

What's there in her fantasy is
infinitely better than anything

that she would've continued to
live if she was in Franco, Spain.

Like, you know, they haven't won.

At the end of this movie,
they have a temporary victory.

They have taken out one dude.

E. C. Martin: Well, they've
taken out his whole can.

Ben: like what is the happy
ending version of this movie?

E. C. Martin: I mean, she

doesn't die.

Emmanuel: Mercedes finishes the job.

Mercedes doesn't cut his
lip open and run away.

She just stabs him to
death, and the movie ends.

E. C. Martin: Well,
they shoot the shit out

Carrie: At least slices his throat

Emmanuel: Yeah, well after
he's shot, Ophelia, like,

E. C. Martin: Yeah.

Ben: but is that a happening?

Because then she, like what becomes of her
fantasy quest to return to the underworld?

Like the goal of the fantasy quest?

Like, like you, I'm
with Jeremy on this one.

It's like, I don't know if it's
real, but movies are fiction,

so it doesn't fucking matter.

Like was this not the goal of her quest?

Did she not succeed at the
quest she was aiming for?

Jeremy: And I have to say like
Mercedes really gets all the

badassery in those movies.

She gets the best lines,
she gets to do the

craziest shit

Emmanuel: gets check off's, knife,

Jeremy: she stabs this dude multiple times
and he's like, you're not gonna get away.

And she puts the knife in his mouth
and says, you won't be the la the

first pig I've gutted and just like
slices up his face on the way out.

I was like, continue
stabbing him, but good line.

And then like he's got this obsession
with the watch that Emily mentioned.

And the thing is that like his dad
was a soldier as well and smashed

the watch at the time of his death
so his son would know when he died

and he fixes the watch so that like
he can do the same thing himself.

And he is getting ready to like hand over

Emmanuel: so he has daddy
issues, is what you're saying.

E. C. Martin: Yes, correct.

Ben: Fascist of daddy

Jeremy: Yeah.

He gets, he gets ready to hand the watch
over to Mercedes and is like, tell my son.

And like, she's like, fuck no, he's
not even gonna know who you are then.

Then that kills him.

Carrie: He won't even know your name.

Emmanuel: Mercedes rules.

Carrie: really

Jeremy: I'm like, that's the
real triumph of this movie.

Emmanuel: In my notes, when they showed
him like repairing a watcher, I was

like, this urologist has motherfucker.

Like, who?

Like, like, oh, I'm so complex.

I can fix a watch.

E. C. Martin: there was some really
interesting imagery with that because he

was in the room with the mill and with
all the, the, the mill like machinery.

And he was so obsessed with this watch
and I feel like it had something to

do with his fastidious and like, you
know, how fucking fascist he was.

You know, cuz he was always like shaving
perfectly and, buffing his boots and shit.

Ben: I saw that also as an extension
of Del Toro's clockwork Nazi imagery

from the first Hellboy movie.

Carrie: Mm-hmm.

E. C. Martin: Yeah.

Ben: Clocks equal.

Fascism seems to be a
bit of a recurring image.

which makes sense.

You know, everything reduced
to just precise gears, devoid

of humanity or, irregularity

E. C. Martin: I, and in this film
there is a contrast between like

the natural and the industrial.

And in this case, you know,
this is less of an industrial

Jeremy: Would

you say

E. C. Martin: blue collar industrial

Jeremy: complex?

E. C. Martin: Yeah.

That mm-hmm.

Carrie: It was capitalism all along.

E. C. Martin: Indeed.

Jeremy: The thing with the watches I think
is so much that like the, the precept

underlying fascism is that you can somehow
control everybody that you can, like, make

a better world by controlling everybody,
and it just doesn't fucking work that way.

Emmanuel: I mean, it's Mussolini
making the trains run on time, right?

Like it's the idea that like,
yeah, this is bad, but look at the

order and look at the perfection.

Ben: which for the record, he didn't do,
the trains did not run particularly well

E. C. Martin: No, and that's the thing.

about the watch is that it's broken
and it's not reliable at all, but he's

still obsessed with making it reliable.

Carrie and Emmanuel, I wanna
know your both of your first

impressions of the movie.

Carrie: I first saw the movie
when it actually came out in

the theaters here in the States.

It was my first time seeing Aguigui
del Toro film, if I recall correctly.

And I had no clue what to expect.

All I saw was that it had a flan in it and
there was like fantasy stuff, but there

was people saying it was kind of dark.

And I saw a actually the thing that
sold me on going to see it was I read

in a newspaper or something that in
Spain, they were actually, or Spanish

speaking countries, they were actually
putting warnings over the p posters

to say, Hey this isn't for kids.

Maybe don't take your
five year old to see this.

And, and I was like
immediately just on that.

I was just like, sold.

Let's go see it.

And when I came out of it I will say it's
one of those films that really, really

impacted me more than I expected it to.

I think the same thing happened to
me with another film called Arrival.

Where I came out of those films and it
just, it, it felt like something shifted.

I loved every second of it,
even like the really sad bits.

It spoke a lot to some personal stuff
I was going through at the time.

It still talks about personal stuff
that I'm going through personally and

like, it's still very raw, but in a
way where, put this, it's like when I

watched that film, I feel felt like,
and even now I feel like I watch that

film and I'm going in with a wound that
needs to be cleaned and it's gonna hurt.

But when you come out, it's cleaned
and now it has the chance to heal.

E. C. Martin: That's poetic.

Carrie: Sorry.

E. C. Martin: That's awesome.

No, that's great.

That's fantastic.

Like, I totally get that.

And the, ending I mean, it's happy
for Ophelia, but it speaks to me of

this idea that I feel like is the
true, the, the closest thing that I

can accept to like, afterlife and,
and looking at death is that, your

soul finds an ideal and whatever.

I mean, this is like the reality
becomes subjective to you.

You know, and like the, the
nanoseconds that it takes your

brain to, to create a dream.

Never really have the wake up
point when you dream to give

you any like, context of an end.

Right.

If that makes any sense.

So it's like what happens with
Ophelia feels as close to me as

a triumph in reality as it could.

And, you know, it'd be
great if that was true.

I can't, none of us can really
know, but that was so, like,

it was bittersweet to me.

Ben: I mean in terms of reality being
subjective, I personally prescribe

to the thesis that all of existence
is just a simulation being run for a

Cosmic Aliens college thesis project.

E. C. Martin: I mean, it's as
likely as anything honestly.

Ben: I believe that this universe
is a school project and we are

definitely not getting above a b.

Carrie: So to, to piggyback off what
you were saying, Emily, about this

sort, sort of whole idea of like,
that sort of balance between reality,

fantasy and, and all that kind of stuff.

There's actually this great book,
which I kind of showed y'all

beforehand, but it's called The Uses of
Enchantment, the Meaning and Importance

of Fairytales, and it's by Bruno
Bettelheim, that's B E t T E L H E I M.

Bettelheim, just for reference, he's
a child psychologist and is often

considered one of the best child
psychologists of the 20th century.

And he's written a lot on understanding
childhood uh, development, childhood

trauma, all that kind of stuff.

But he has some really interesting
thoughts on how we work as human beings

when it comes to reality and fantasy
and why fairy tales are so important.

So they're sort of like,
Ophelia's mother and her, her

like fascist asshole stepfather.

Have this thing that they're
like, this isn't real.

You're too old for this.

All that kind of stuff.

And what it comes down to is that
the fear that a child's mind, this

is coming straight from the book.

So the fear that a child's mind may become
so overfed to fairytale fantasies as to

neglect learning to cope with reality is
a consi is like a fear that people have.

And actually the opposite is true
complex as we all are conflicted,

ambivalent full of contradictions.

The human personality is indivisible,
whatever and experience may be, it

always affects all the aspects of the
personal personality at the same time.

And the total personality in order to be
able to deal with the tasks of living,

needs to be backed up by a rich fantasy
combined with a firm consciousness

and a clear grasp of reality.

Faulty development sets in when one
component of the personality, it ego

or super ego conscious or unconscious
overpowers any of the others and

depletes the total personality
of its particular resources.

He goes on to say that it has been
mistakenly suggested that an over

rich fantasy life interferes with
our coping successfully with reality.

And that's just not true.

Those who live completely in their
fantasies are beset by compulsive

ruminations, which rotate.

Eternally around the, some narrow
stereotypical topics far from

having a rich fantasy life.

Such people are locked in and
they cannot break out of one

anxious or wish fulfilling dream.

So this has, this is, this is a thing
that I find so poetic about this film.

We're sitting here talking about the
fact that Ophelia's living in a fantasy

world when the person who's living in
the fantasy world is her stepfather.

E. C. Martin: Yes,

Carrie: Yeah.

E. C. Martin: I, that, that had
occurred to me when I was thinking

about the propaganda of everything.

I didn't want to compare the profound
fantasy of Ophelia's experience

with the actual fantasy of fascism.

You know, cuz these are both fantasy.

I do wanna hear Emmanuel, I want to hear
what you hear your first impression of the

movie and what you know you first saw it.

Emmanuel: Yeah, so I had seen
before this Devil's Backbone

as well as Hellboy and had.

Love with Jim Toro's feature design.

That's a thing that every one of his
projects kind of just, it strikes me.

And so I saw Ben Lab coming out, wait
to see it immediately taken in, right?

I, I'm, as I've said, I'm a teacher.

I, I have probably a savior
complex and like the kids that

like, need a little more love and
like, need someone to help that.

Like, that is, you got me.

And that is the story.

I immediately went back to see it again.

I've never done that with any other movie
to see it a second time in theaters.

It is, it is a thing that I
think about pretty regularly.

I, I'm just fascinated by so much of it.

And then by extension, as I've said,
discovering Doug Jones who shows up

in a lot of these projects, right?

And he's in this, he's in Shape of Water.

If you need a weird creature to do a
weird thing with its body, he's your dude.

And so I think that is another part of it.

Through Deltoro there, he kind
of reminds me of Neil Gaiman.

In fact, that's one of my recommendations
later is this kind of dark fantasy

allegorical stories about the, you know,
maybe this didn't happen, maybe this did.

I, I find that a time and time again.

That is, those are the kind of
stories that I've gravitated towards.

And then he is one of
the best to ever do it.

Like he, it may not always be
amazing, but it is always interesting

and always intricately designed
and is clearly a thing that he.

Puts all of his passion, effort, and
resources into, if you get a chance,

just like read through the trivia page
on I M D B about this, I, he doesn't

let people do subtitles anymore for him.

He writes the English subtitles
himself because they're not

getting the sense of his words.

Every one of these projects, he has like
a notebook that has all kind of like

quotes and creature designs and ideas.

And so it's, it is a thing that

he is fanatical about these projects and
I think it really comes across in the end.

I have not seen Pinocchio yet,
but at least for this in a lot of

his other movies, I, it, it very

Jeremy: Pechi, is that fanaticism
another, another level?

E. C. Martin: Oh, yeah, yeah,

Emmanuel: love give it to put it in my
veins, like, but yeah, I just, I, these

are the, for a long time this, this kind
of dark fantasy character using fictional

stories to kind of cope with reality.

That is a, story thing that I have just
gravitated towards perhaps because,

you know, I kind of had like a rough
school experience myself growing up,

getting bullied and whatnot and so books
were there, so, I dunno, but love it.

Jeremy: It's, it's interesting to me
because I, I feel like there's definitely

a through line to a lot of Del Toro
stuff in a lot of different ways.

But I think the one that like is
most obvious in this, and I was

thinking about showing this to, to
Zuri who was 11 because I think she

would really gain something from it.

But uh,

Ben: Honestly, the wine
bottle scene alone would

Emmanuel: Mm-hmm.

Ben: wait a couple more years.

Emmanuel: And the sewing

your

mouth together,

backseat.

Jeremy: as I was watching it this
time, uh, I was like, oh yeah, I forgot

the creature's design is a little spooky.

and like the blind creature is, is scary.

But like Guillermo do, Toro
loves men are the real monsters.

Like the monsters are fine, And
that's very true in this movie.

There's nothing that the creatures
in this movie do that stacks up

to this man beating a farmer's
face in with a wine bottle.

Ben: I mean, that's,

that's part of where, like
the disconnect comes from.

Is that like, I've heard so much about
the Pale Man and how he is like this

incredible villain and how it's like
the scariest scene of, and how he's like

the scariest part of the whole movie.

And for some reason I thought
he was the main villain.

And I also thought he
talked, that's on me.

Nobody told me he talked,
I just assumed he talked.

That's fine.

Yeah.

Because Mr.

McConnell.

But like at the end of the day,
like, yeah, when he is eating

the ferries, that's fucking
hardcore and scary and awesome.

But his friend to Ophelia, he is just
kind of like a weird shambley man who

just kind of slowly shambles like I as
cool a design as it is and is lived in.

And as wonderful as Doug Jones
performances and as good as the

creature design is, like, I gotta say
the scene, you know, as you put it,

Emily torturing through ableism where
he challenges the resistance member

to count to three without stuttering.

I found that to be a way more like
tense and uncomfortable scene.

E. C. Martin: Hmm.

Jeremy: Yeah, I think there's a certain
amount of, like, there's definitely

a component of abuse, like in the
abusive stepfather kind of way in this.

And he is literally an abusive stepfather,
but he takes it well beyond that.

But like, there's certainly that,
like the pale man has rules, right?

And like if you follow the rules, you
don't have to worry about him meeting you.

But this guy, the captain is vill, is
just like, you have to tiptoe around him.

And even if you do that, he might
be mad at you for tiptoeing.

Like, there's nothing she can
do that will be the right thing.

And she does inevitably do the wrong
thing, like she does, you know, go

checking off and get her, you know,
nice shoes and dress destroyed.

But like, even if she weren't,
there's no right thing for her to do.

There's.

Way that things would be good.

Like, I mean, then that's sort of what
I was talking about, about the ending.

Like there's, there's no ending in which
things are good at the end of this movie.

You know, she might, you know, stay with
Mercedes who's definitely a, a better

option than what she's been with so far.

But like, yeah, I think the movie in
particular, I think says what it has

to say about fascism is like, Carmen
thinks that if you just be good, and

if you do what he wants you to do, that
you can get by, that she can survive.

And Carmen gets physically
crushed for that belief.

Like she is allowed to die
because, you know, he, he wants to

preserve his baby over her life.

Like there's never a
question in this for him.

And she does not seem to realize that
there's no amount of the right thing

she can do to stop this fascist,
misogynist asshole from crushing her.

She, he cannot be bartered
with or begged with.

Eventually he will destroy everything.

And you know, I think
Mercedes understands this.

Like, she's sort of like bowing and
scraping when she's with him, and

then immediately is like, let me
sneak some guns to the resistance.

E. C. Martin: Yeah.

Yeah.

Emmanuel.

Emmanuel: Yeah.

I dunno, just on the pale man, like,
I think one of the things that I love

about this movie is that each of these
tasks is somewhat allegorical, right?

She first deals with
this toad that's living.

Inside a thing, consuming all
the nutrients and killing it.

Like her baby brother,
there's the pale man.

I think the captain would say
like, I'm fine to get along.

Like you just have to follow the rules.

And he is sitting at this feast
and not allowing anyone to touch

it in the same way that he has the
storeroom that has all of these

things in it and directly punishes
anyone that tries to take from it.

And so I, I think it is the perspective
there of the, yes, this is unreasonable.

Yes, he's abusive, but in the
captain's eyes, he's finding it all.

Just do what I say.

Just follow the rules.

Right?

Well, how hard is this?

And I think it's sort of like you said,
that's what makes him especially horrific.

And in Del Toro's eyes, that's really
what makes him the evil person,

is the inability to see his own
cruelty, the inability to see his

own evil, like the guy that has no
eyes until he puts them in his palms.

Ben: I

E. C. Martin: Yes.

Ben: do love the degree to which the
outline of just like this evil stepfather,

Cinderella, is just like Emo Guillermo
del Toro, like Cinderella story.

E. C. Martin: I mean to like a, the
nth degree, I mean with, I mean, like

we, the, the, it's interesting looking
at this movie and also looking at

the Pinocchio movie, which, you know,
we haven't talked about, but in both

movies, I mean, I think P Pinocchio
a little bit more like the fascism

Ben: His Pinocchio died.

His Pinocchio.

Oh no,

Jeremy: Repeatedly.

Ben: they

E. C. Martin: fascism.

Ben: okay.

E. C. Martin: I

Jeremy: Pinocchio dies

a lot.

Emmanuel: fasc.

Ben: I haven't seen any.

Does Pinocchio die at
the end of Pinocchio?

E. C. Martin: I'm not gonna tell you

Ben: Oh,

E. C. Martin: Talk does
Talk in that movie though.

Um,

Jeremy: I will tell you, Pinocchio
dies like half an hour into Pinocchio.

Like

E. C. Martin: well, it,

Jeremy: there's plenty of
Pinocchio dying in that movie.

E. C. Martin: that's true.

.
Ben: Yeah, of course.

Pinocchio was ending the movie
getting turned into a birdhouse.

E. C. Martin: mean, he's already kind of
a, anyway yeah, to the point about the

Pale Man the, the other thing about the
pa Pale man that I think is interesting

allegorically, is that you have to go
in there and not do anything about him.

Like you have to go in there, steal your
shit, and then leave, you know, make sure

you follow the rules, but you know exactly
how fucking horrible, like they have,

he has all those frescoes around his,
his dinner table touting his incredible

feats of eating little children, right?

Jeremy: Their

Ben: Oh, right.

Paintings.

I'm hearing you, I'm just thinking
like you didn't have any sodas.

Jeremy: Not, not Fresco's,

E. C. Martin: not Frescas,

Jeremy: Fresco's.

Emmanuel: hell man.

Just crazy about soda.

E. C. Martin: I mean, I'm sure he is too.

I I'll that much ascertain
will do that to you.

But yeah, the, the, and the fact that the,
the, the fairytale interpretations as dark

as they are, are a little bit more simple
when their rules like are, are laid out.

Right.

And I think that also speaks to
what you said, Carrie, about the the

analysis of the fairy tales to children.

Like, you know, the there is a certain
amount of fantasy needed to deal with

this, with all of the conflicting aspects
of the reality that we've gotta accept.

And also like in this case,
the fairy tales are not ideal.

You know, the old, the ultimate
ideal happens after the con the,

the context of reality is removed.

You know, no matter what the fairy
tales, you know, as, as straightforward

as they are, are not fun or cool.

Yeah, you got a phone and you got
ferries, but you also like have to

walk in the mud and, you know, turn
a frog inside out, get bugs all over.

Ben: Everything being fantasy.

I think you got Ophelia in like Fantasy.

Fantasy.

The in like.

Fascism will work fantasy.

And then I think Mercedes is like
the fantasy for the audience of the

old-fashioned Hollywood Good guys win
narrative where she gets miraculously

saved in the nick, right, in the
nick of time, and also her brothers

miraculously still alive and they win.

Even though in real life they don't win.

There is just 30 years of
more fascism for Spain,

Jeremy: Well, this is happening much
closer to the, the end of Fascist

Spain than Devil's Backbone, which
is still pretty early, I think.

Because they are talking about
World War II beginning in this

Ben: right?

But they nev, I mean it,
they never get rid of Franco.

I mean, Franco just
dies of old age in 1975.

Jeremy: Yeah,

Ben: So I

think

there's a sense of like, I think Mercedes,
I think is like us, the viewer's fantasy.

Jeremy: Yeah, I mean, I, I think if we
wanna talk about the, like, the different

elements of the fantasy quest as part
of the, like, you know, metaphor for

fascism, or I guess how to beat fascism is
like, you know, you have the, you do have

the toad who like lives inside of this
thing and by living inside, if it kills

it, like you can't just let it survive
there and, and continue to, to go on,

cuz it is going to rott from the inside.

And then, you know, in the case of
the, the blind man, like you can.

You can't take some of the food,
you can't like, take a little

bit of fascism and be okay.

Like you have to, it has to
be an all or nothing thing.

And it is gonna be tempting
because they have everything.

So like you want to take from it.

And so, you

Ben: are you saying

you can't have little of fascism as a.

Jeremy: yeah, you can't have
a little fascism as a treat.

You can't like, take the rewards of it for
yourself and not actually partake in it.

That's still partaking in it.

And then, you know, I think the
ultimate question is like, you

know, who can, can you sacrifice
innocent people to fight fascism?

And the answer is no.

You become a fascist when you do that.

Like, you become a fascist
when you trade lives for lives.

And like, you know, and, and she
realizes like, you know, she, she

refuses to give up her brother and,
you know, ends up dying herself.

And that's like, maybe that's the
only way to do it, is to just, you

know, put, put yourself on the line.

You can't you

Ben: Well, that was the final, well,
no, I mean, we're, we're explicitly

told that that's the final test,

Jeremy: you know?

Ben: she wouldn't

E. C. Martin: Yes,

Ben: her brother,

Jeremy: Yeah.

For the underworld, but
also for fighting fascism.

Ben: Yes, it's, look, I'm not always
sure where the analogy goes, but

I, I think loopy is anti-fascism.

E. C. Martin: I think so too, and I think
that that also, the fact that death is

the only real escape now, you know, is
that is an escape from the complexity

of reality where things can be ideal.

Carrie, you were gonna say

Carrie: I wanted to talk a little bit
about the pale man because I don't know

if this just tracks for my religious
trauma, but that felt like a church to me.

the actual inside felt
like a church to me.

The first time I saw it, I
remember thinking, that's weird.

There's like all these frescoes
there's, there's even like an altar.

There's, you know, that giant table
of food and then, you know, you

think of like the, the priest at the
head of the table or all that stuff.

But the thing that solidified it for me
was when Ophelia takes them, homegirl has

not eaten for the majority of the day.

And then just based off of, you know,
where she's come from, that she came

from the city, that her mother's married
this fascist creep and that her mom

is like, oh my gosh, look at this.

There's, there's like clothes and
pretty shoes and stuff like that.

In my head, what I feel is this is
a child that's used to trauma, like

consistently used to trauma and like
likely didn't have a lot of food.

She's like a war kid.

So when you're laid out, when you don't
have any food, you haven't had food all

day, and then you're, you're laid out in
this giant, lovely banquet in front of

you and you're told not to eat a goddamn
thing and then you take some out of need.

That wasn't just like, oh,
I'm not listening to you cuz

I don't wanna listen to you.

She's hungry.

Because her body is hungry.

And all I can say is that when
I saw that for the first time, I

was like original sin immediately.

And it was just like, again,
probably speaking to the, like,

all the religious crap in the past.

But it's just like, I think it's very
interesting that these, that that scene

and the scene of the of the sort of
feast the dinner party kind of overlaps.

One, not overlaps, but they
kind of book in one another.

And also the fact that that priest
at the dinner table says something

to the effect of like, you know, well
the, you know, the souls of the rebels

are saved and what happens to their
bodies God doesn't really care about.

And it just sort of made me think
a lot about like how, how kind of

the church sort of just sort of side
stepped for fascism in many cases.

Especially when you think about what was
happening in you know, with the Pope and

the Catholic church during that time.

And then you also think more about like
how, you know, the Catholic church and

many cases, a lot of religions actually
have issues with, you know, Child

abuse and being saed type of thing.

And that's just not cool.

And meanwhile, they have this
bountiful thing in front of them.

All the money, all the riches,
whole things around them.

But the only thing they want is like
the innocence that they don't have.

E. C. Martin: Yeah,

Carrie: And that has always been like
one of the things that really made me go

like it, it just sort of stuck with me.

And the more I watched it, the this time
and I was like looking at other details

behind this, you know, like behind
the stuff going on in the foreground

and was like, he's not, I don't know
what it is about Guillermo, but he's

like, he's not cool with the church
as much as he's not cool with fascist.

E. C. Martin: yeah, yeah.

The, the, the institution
of the church for sure.

Carrie: Yeah.

But anyway, I just wanted to mention
that cuz it's something that I

was like, wow, that's interesting.

E. C. Martin: Well, there's,
there's a really interesting, if

you've seen the film, Jojo Rabbit.

okay.

So that's,

Ben: adventure?

E. C. Martin: there's no

bizarre, well, I mean, there's
kind of an bizarre adventure,

but it, it involves more Nazis.

Ben: It doesn't

rule out the Manka

E. C. Martin: That's true.

Ben: unfor.

Unfortunately, the Nazis are
the good guys in part two.

Carrie: That's a

E. C. Martin: Oops.

A daisy.

Ben: Yeah,

yeah.

I not quite sure what Iraqi
was thinking with that one.

E. C. Martin: I mean,
he made Jesus a jojo.

Anyway, but Jojo Rabbit, the film by
Tyco, y t t is interesting because,

you know, it comes out in a time where
we're, we're really like fighting

this resurgence of fascism in America.

And it starts out with this kid who's
in Hitler youth, and he is totally

like, completely sold by the propaganda.

Like he just is full on into it.

And he, and he has these these fantasies
where he sees, he's talking to Hitler, who

is played by Taiko I t t, which is wild.

But he has this, this image of
Hitler being so cool and so ideal.

There's this bit where he's like,
he sees him like eating a unicorn

at this table because he's like that
incredible that he eats unicorns

every day, you know, to this kid.

And then later in the movie, as
this kid is starving and his family

has nothing he has, he has the same
fantasies, but now he is watching as.

This Tyco y TT cartoon.

Hitler is eating a unicorn in front
of him and he has nothing to eat.

And um, that's also a really
interesting, way that fantasy

expresses that and expresses the
predatory nature of these institutions.

You know, and that's

the, with the

Ben: for some unicorn right now.

E. C. Martin: I mean, I don't,

Ben: for unicorn.

E. C. Martin: yeah, I don't know.

It could be good, you know, um,

Ben: sure it is.

Emmanuel: It's horse.

It's probably not.

Ben: But it's magic rainbow.

I imagine that it's like, have you
ever had candied bacon where it's

just like a naturally candied meat?

Carrie: That sounds
des, that sounds like c.

E. C. Martin: Ooh, yeah.

Okay.

Emmanuel: That's kind
of fucked up for dogs.

Carrie: I know.

Ben: Yeah.

Right.

That sounds

E. C. Martin: That's unhealthy for dogs.

Yeah.

Jeremy: Yeah.

I think,

you know, talking about going off of
that and I think thinking about this and,

and tied to Pinocchio you know, there
is definitely this like tie between the

way that we see the pale man in this
and the way that the military is shown.

In Pinocchio is sort of like we are
just feeding our kids to the military.

Like, you know, they're very raw, raw.

Send the kids, you know, out to fight.

Like they're training them
as, you know, little boys.

They see this, you know, wooden little
boy who, you know, can't, can't die in the

way a flesh and blood that a boy does is
like this, you know, opportunity to, you

know, just have, have this great soldier.

You know, I think that, you know,
we see that pile of children's shoes

and, and there in that fresco of,
you know, children being eaten.

And it's the same sort of, you know, if
we're viewing him as an institution, be it

the church or the military you know, we're
literally feeding children to I think that

that ties in pretty soundly with, with.

Carrie: No.

E. C. Martin: Yeah.

Do we think that the the stick insect
is in is also a metaphor of invasive

species and invasive ideas or,

Ben: I

am not sure.

The stick insect turns into
the fairy and the fairies are

always just very supportive

Carrie: Okay.

This is one of the areas of

Emmanuel: They're

Carrie: like,

Emmanuel: snitches though.

Carrie: yeah, like, okay.

If you

look at

Ben: she did get a few of
them eaten for a few grapes.

Carrie: Yeah.

But they showed back up at the end.

E. C. Martin: Some, did.

I, were those the same fairies

though?

Carrie: they were.

E. C. Martin: Okay.

Jeremy: The same color

Carrie: So she ate two grapes.

He ate two fairies.

The share the fairies

showed back up at the end.

E. C. Martin: Okay.

Carrie: but crap.

I look at the fairy talk.

Oh, there, it's okay.

So one of the things that I
do have a gripe about with is

that with the fairy within the
fairies, there's like a permeated

culture throughout most of Europe.

You don't fuck with the Faye.

You see a fairy.

You see the Faye, you're just like, bye.

Or, or it's like you see the Faye.

No, you didn't.

It calls your name.

No, it

E. C. Martin: Yeah.

Carrie: Like

E. C. Martin: They're called
ferries because you treat them

fairly or else they'll fuck you up.

And if I treat

Emmanuel: say you don't eat their
food, you don't go into their

homes, you don't exchange anything.

Make any bargains.

Carrie: Like that's, that is like,
the folklores to me is like a fairy

is telling you not to eat the food,
so you better fucking eat the food.

E. C. Martin: that's also true.

Carrie: yeah.

So I don't know.

It's a,

Jeremy: I, the, the fairy thing
is interesting to me because the

creature never presents itself as a
fairy until she says it's a fairy,

and then it changes into a fairy.

Like she shows it a picture
of a fairy, and it changes

from being a bug into a fairy.

So like, you know how much that's
supposed to be an indication maybe to us

that this is all fantasy, whether it's.

This creature is, is turning into
whatever is, you know, comfortable

for her, whatever she needs to see
to follow it, to continue this quest.

E. C. Martin: Right.

Jeremy: a little unclear.

Carrie: hmm.

Ben: Yeah, it's never, I like how they
keep it ambiguous as to whether there's

truly magic going on, or if this is just
what Ophelia is throwing herself into.

Oh, to not have to deal with,
you know, her actual situation.

E. C. Martin: I, I do like
how the ferries are nebulous.

Like their, their goals
are nebulous, right?

I mean, it's all subjective because,
you know, you see the phone and also

Mercedes is like, you know, my mom
always said don't trust a phone.

And that's valid.

I mean, you think about what Fonza
are, like, you know, where they

come from and everything like that.

You know, this is, this guy is a little
bit different of a vibe, but he still is

not super straightforward about things.

You know, like Quest number three,
part one, steal your brother.

Don't worry about what
we're gonna do with him.

We just want a baby.

And, you know, giving a baby to ferries
is never, that's never broken bad, right?

I mean,

Ben: I mean, I will say like, again,
to the degree that this movie I

felt like I was led to believe was
like, Ooh, once the fantasy element

starts, like that's the movie.

But instead it's like we kept
cutting between, you know,

fantasy and the real world.

And while this is a very interesting, very
tense and gripping exploration of Fascist

Spain, I couldn't help but thinking
like, this is like if in Labyrinth

we just cut back every 10 minutes to
see how the parent's date was going.

E. C. Martin: I mean, I feel like
it's more, I think it's, it's

necessary to have, if we're gonna
be talking about fascism and what's

going on and how, just how fucking

Ben: established that
I'm not being fair or

E. C. Martin: that's okay.

Okay.

I'm just saying like, you know, I
acknowledge that that's how it feels,

especially when you come into this movie
expecting something more like Labyrinth.

Ben: I'm just saying the thought occurred
to me where I'm like, okay, cool.

Fair.

Not even in that.

I disliked either part of it.

I just wasn't expecting a solid 70%
of the movie to be in the movie.

E. C. Martin: I mean, and
that's, that's also valid

Ben: It throws a gal off.

, E. C. Martin: and that's what we
remember of the movie, those of us

who saw it the first time and we're
all like, what's the, and there's, and

that guy gets his ass beat by a bottle.

Like that's what we remember.

I mean, that's what I assume
everybody remembers in this movie

is that they like, are, are super
like, wow, that fan was fucking red.

And like, it was

very sad.

Yeah, the fan is fucking

red.

You know, we're all, we were all drawn
eyeballs on our hands when this movie came

out and being like, ha ha ha, look at me.

But yeah, like there's

Ben: Supreme Court seat.

E. C. Martin: right Andy children

Ben: Okay.

to be fair, he hadn't
gone there yet in 2006.

E. C. Martin: Well, Gamel Deltoro
uh, good on you for seeing ahead.

Ben: I mean that Doug Jones is
both the fun and the McConnell man.

I mean, fucking good on Doug Jones.

E. C. Martin: I mean, we all know that

Ben: great

E. C. Martin: like fucking awesome,

Emmanuel: Anytime I see a weird guy,
I'm just like, Doug Jones, is that you?

You gotta tell me if it's

Ben: it, it it's fitting that he plays the
fun because Doug Jones truly is the goat

Jeremy: you gotta tell me

Emmanuel: God, I can never
remember the name of this movie.

What?

Grinding Nemo.

What's that?

Shape of Water?

Ben: grinding

E. C. Martin: People what the, the,
we were talking about next week.

Ben: Nemo's on that grind set.

E. C. Martin: I mean, we
don't just grind in that

Emmanuel: But, He just has the
posture and like the, everything

about him is otherworldly.

There's a short like YouTube
like documentary just about

him and his mime training and
how he embodies his characters.

And it's so fascinating because
he, he is what makes these figures

otherworldly and uncanny, like it
is him doing stuff with his body.

It's not the prosthesis or the makeup.

It is Doug Jones.

Ben: I do remember though, Doug Jones
got cast on the Flash TV show and I

was very excited to see, ooh, what.

Crazy inventive and
otherworldly DC character.

Did he get Doug Jones to play?

And it turns out they got him
to just be himself, but he can

shoot lasers out of his eyes.

Emmanuel: I'm pretty
sure he shows up on Dr.

Who one or two times just playing
any of a number of creepy dudes,

Carrie: What's on Starship
Discovery, which he did a really

Ben: Oh, well, he's funny of like,

he's pretty much the only non Michael
Burnham character that gets screen time.

It's like the Michael and Saru show.

Carrie: Yeah.

Jeremy: yeah.

Saru has more of a, like an
emotional journey than Michael does.

Like Saru is somebody that you're like,
doesn't care about that giant shrimp man.

Like he's, he's important to me.

Ben: I, I care so hard
about the giant shrimp man.

Emmanuel: having not see this.

I love that.

Jeremy: that giant shrimp
man is important to me.

Ben: so.

He's a great charact.

Jeremy: I, would never
undersell Doug Jones.

I think, you know, he does
an incredible job in this.

He's also a super nice guy if you've
never met him, like super, super

nice, like likes to give hugs, likes
to talk to people, super excited.

Kind of creepy to see stand up from
a table because he is very tall.

That's not special effects.

He's very tall.

but

E. C. Martin: It does unfold

as a human.

Emmanuel: I don't like, that.

Jeremy: so much of what
makes this is not just.

Doug Jones.

But Guillermo do Toro's commitment to
both, both letting Doug Jones do it

and to like doing practical effects.

You know, the Faw legs are real, like
they did digitally remove the actor's legs

in that scene, but he's like controlling
the fond legs with his own legs.

That's not a special effect.

that's prosthesis and
headgear and costume.

Like , you know, the Pale Man is real.

Like that's the stuff that matters.

The ferries are fake because the ferries.

But you know, everything else about that
is, is like, it's real and terrifying.

Ben: especially in 2006 when people
were like, we c G, I can do anything.

Look, it's revenge of the sin.

Emmanuel: Say, my only gripe
is that Ophelia doesn't

look where the ferries are.

It drives me crazy in

Carrie: Okay.

Thank you.

I'm, I'm not the only, I was just like,
why is she not looking at them like,

Emmanuel: Just, just put
'em where she's looking.

Like

Jeremy: yeah, I mean we, we talked about,
you know, the first Resident Evil movie

and how like it gets to the climax and
it's been a movie full of zombies and

then the climax, it turns into a big c g
I monster and like, it just looks dumb.

It doesn't look like it has any weight.

Like you, it just totally ruins
what is supposed to be the climax of

the movie because you're like that.

That is an effect in a
hallway that is not real.

Like everything about
this looks weightless.

It looks like jar jar banks in a field
full of, you know, other fake creatures.

But like this, this movie is dedicated
to like, having things in the space and

like putting in the time and the money
and the effort to like, make real physical

special effects in a way that like at that
time, especially, people were not doing,

E. C. Martin: Oh boy.

Came out before this or did it?

Jeremy: I

Emmanuel: Hellboy

Jeremy: Hellboy

Emmanuel: this,

Jeremy: I think this splits the

Emmanuel: second Hellboy is afterwards.

Yeah.

Ben: because that's the thing,
like I think part of it is

also seeing this movie after.

I've seen Hellboy two where it's
kinda like these creature designs

are cool, but if I really want to
see wall to wall nonstop Del Toro

fantasy creature designs, I should pop
it in Hellboy two, the Golden Army.

E. C. Martin: Fucking love that movie.

And how just like, completely
off the rails it is.

It's like so Hellboy, but also
this, and I'm like, you go,

you just do your shit, man.

Jeremy: I love a director who has
the courage to just put his d and d

campaign into a movie like, you know,

E. C. Martin: Fuck yes.

Like at first when I saw the
trailers for it, I thought it was

legit like a Arista word movie.

Like Homeland or whatever,
Therissa Orden books.

That's not my recommendation,
but it kind of is.

Um, if you wanna something
completely unrelated and, nowhere

near his poignant is this movie.

Carrie: Mm-hmm.

Can we talk about the u.

Okay.

And how it's all over

the place

Emmanuel: bodies that.

E. C. Martin: So, yeah, the, the, the
uterus imagery we got, we got fetuses.

Carrie: Oh, we got fetuses, but it's also,
you've got the uterine imagery everywhere.

Even with the fonts head there.

If you look at the bed
frame behind mom, like it

actually has the, the sort of
fallopian tubes and the uterus.

The tree in of itself is literally a
uterus, the fallopian tubes, ovaries,

and then you've got the vagina where she
actually ends up crawling, crawling into.

E. C. Martin: Yeah.

Carrie: And then there's actually
a, there's a paper that I found.

It's a a, somebody wrote this as a
thesis, which was basically a paper about

how this film is at its core actually
about somebody getting their period.

Because Yeah, I, I thought it was like, at
first I was like, I don't know, but then I

Emmanuel: I'm down to take this walk,
but like I need to see the path.

Carrie: Okay.

Ben: yeah,

I'm, I'm gonna need, I'm gonna

Jeremy: I need you to show your work.

Carrie: Alright.

I can show my work.

I can send you guys the papers.

It's actually quite fascinating, but.

Emmanuel: was gonna say menstruation
is hero's journey in Pam's

Labyrinth by Richard Lindsay.

Like that's wild.

Jeremy: I mean, I can, I can absolutely
see it because there is a point

in this, like obviously there's
uterine imagery and stuff like that.

The baby is very important
to the story, but

there is like specifically that scene
where they, the doctor tells, or I think

it's Mercedes tells tells Ophelia, like,
yeah, sometimes, you know, the baby can

make you sick, sometimes it can kill you.

And Ophelia's, like, then
I'm not fucking having kids.

Carrie: yeah.

Exactly.

E. C. Martin: yeah.

Carrie: Exactly.

She said he, it's like I think Mercedes
is like having a baby is complicated and

ophelia's like, then I won't have one.

Ben: Which

she's right.

Carrie: true.

Ben: I, I like how you did it
better than how she did though.

Carrie: But what I really think
is interesting in this theory,

so walking through the theory,
you have a child who is about 11.

You have her going through this
mul, these multiple journeys where

she's, you've got the green dress
where she goes into the the tree.

There's a theory that the
green dress means virginity,

fertility, all that sort of stuff.

And removing it.

She's actually losing
her virginity going in.

That's one theory.

I'm not saying I, I completely
buy it but the, the part that so

sort of solidified it for me was
the idea you needed a blood of an

innocent in order to open the portal.

It's ophelia's blood and she's at the
point where she would begin menstruating

and that's what opens the portal for
herself to be reborn into another realm.

So, and then the other thing that
makes me go, huh, is the very

last shot is our uterus tree.

And we see a white bloom
on what would be the ovary.

E. C. Martin: And that's interesting
because like, you know, I can see it, I

can, I can definitely see it, especially
the blood of the innocent thing, because

when they say they need the blood of
the innocent, they also don't like the,

the phone asks for the blood of the
innocent, but it doesn't occur to anybody

that Ophelia's blood would work instead.

You know, like he says, all
I need is a little pin prick.

And she's like, you're not getting that
knife near this baby no matter what.

Right.

Instead of, because she also had to
feed the the man root her own blood.

Right.

Carrie: By the way, that whole scene,
all I could think was grow for me.

E. C. Martin: I

mean, little

bit.

A little

Emmanuel: notes, little
Shop of Horrors, like.

E. C. Martin: Just a little suckling
on the, on the finger there, but Yeah.

But the, the, the thing that, I mean, I,
I see the I saw the abstract here, but.

I, the, in this case, the adulthood
that she reaches, she rejects the, like

adulthood in the real world and becomes
an ideal cuz it says in the end that

she rules and is a fair and just ruler.

Like

Ben: For many centuries, which
I thought I, I hoped they were

gonna end on like a weird future.

It's like Spain, but now everyone
is flying cars and it's chrome, but

she's still ruling the underworld.

E. C. Martin: or like, it's the
cool underworld and like the

underworld and the overworld are
the same or something like that.

But that, that probably would be pretty
post-apocalyptic if, if we're, you

know, in GMO's wheelhouse, which, you
know, is a wheelhouse I'm, I'm into.

Ben: And

so there was something I encountered
in this movie that I'm not sure about

and I wanna ask y'all about the sounds
that the fairies make are those the

same monkey sounds as abo from Aladdin?

E. C. Martin: one of them sounds the
same, but I don't think they're the same.

Carrie: Mm-hmm.

Abu was actually done by a voice actor
specifically for that role at that time.

Emmanuel: Carrie, you know
everything, and it's impressive.

Carrie: huh?

E. C. Martin: for

Emmanuel: Listen, you know everything,
and it's really impressive.

Ben: those fairies sounded
distractingly like a boo

to the point where I'm like, fairies you.

You better not steal a big gem and
make a bunch of lava fall that we

gotta escape on the flying carpet.

E. C. Martin: fun facts.

Ben: fairies.

E. C. Martin: That was taken directly
from the thief and the cobbler.

Carrie: Yes, it was.

You're correct.

I love that movie in a very weird way.

It has some very strange vibes,
but it also is just fun to watch

Ben: I mean, just one of
the most cursed productions.

Carrie: one of the most curse productions.

And also if you're ever high,
it's hilarious and it is a

trip.

Like

Richard Williams doing
that whole like, oh my

God,

Ben: thought.

E. C. Martin: The fucking magic
lady and her like, hands up at you.

Yeah.

I

Carrie: For me

E. C. Martin: no, I'm

Carrie: the,

E. C. Martin: I'm out.

Carrie: it's the chase through
the, the palace with zigzag.

And like, you

have all

E. C. Martin: fuck that

Carrie: Escher stuff going,

E. C. Martin: Oh my God.

Why?

Why did you do that?

Why would you do that?

Why would you do that to yourself?

Carrie: Because I'm in Maine
and there's not a lot to do.

E. C. Martin: Okay.

That's fair.

All

Carrie: yeah.

But yeah, I

E. C. Martin: Withdrawn.

Carrie: yeah.

Okay, cool.

Cool, cool, cool.

But yeah, the only reason I, I know a
lot of this stuff, Emmanuel, is because

I I work in animation development and
I also am really interested in film

development fairy tales, folklore,
and how they apply to history.

So, this is like, this is
like my genre, my vibe.

And I'm really, I don't know, man.

I just, I love how gimo de takes, in many
cases, a lot of inspiration from animation

and makes them feel not necessarily
more real, but just like solidified

in reality, if that makes any sense.

If you somebody told me that they
were gonna make a animated version

of Pan's Labyrinth that stuck to the
story, I'd be like, fuck yes, let's go.

If you had Miyazaki do Pan's
Labyrinth, I'd be, yeah.

E. C. Martin: Oh

yeah.

Well, there was some,

Carrie: Yeah.

E. C. Martin: yes.

I was gonna say, especially with that
beginning, like the, the, the men

here or whatever, like the, the, the
stone monolith with the figure on it

Jeremy: It would be half an

E. C. Martin: back together.

Jeremy: he did it.

But yeah,

Carrie: Oh, and can

E. C. Martin: Everybody see more farming?

Emmanuel: But that scene with the Pale
Man, the food would look incredible.

Carrie: Yeah.

Everything.

Like, I love the ruins so much.

I love the fact that they they kept
referencing there is a garden in

France, I believe it is, and they have
like these they're supposed to be hell

mouths is what they're kind of called
within art and art history, but it's

the idea that they are portals to Hades.

So you have the eyes wide and the mouth
open and the mouth is where you go in

to, to go into Hades, which I always
thought was really clever, especially

when you looked at how the fact that the
portal where she has to go to go to the

underworld is actually under an image
of that sort of hell mouth figuring.

And also all the pictus sort
of stuff that goes in there.

So it's just like, ah, so cool.

E. C. Martin: Yeah.

I mean, in, in, yeah, in, in that
area in Spain, you know, you have the,

you had the gulls there, you had the
Gaelic, yeah, the Gaelic influence.

So, I don't know what part of Spain
this is though, so I can't really,

I can't be like, that's scaling.

But

you know, it's,

Jeremy: non.

Carrie: Yeah, it's very, it is very
non-specific, but I can't, I'll

have to send you guys a picture of
it, but I'll see if I can find it.

Let me see.

Jeremy: Yeah, it's interesting to
me, and I, I found out the reason

for it is I, I feel like the only
special effects that don't look

good are explosions in this movie.

And that's because they couldn't actually
do them because the place they were

filming this was actually having a massive
drought at the time, so they weren't

allowed to do explosions in, in person.

So all of the explosions are very
clearly added digitally, especially

when you're looking at like, you
know, when you're looking at this

in 4k, it's like, oh boy, that

E. C. Martin: Yeah,

Jeremy: definitely wasn't
an explosion over that hill.

E. C. Martin: I feel like there was,
there was such kind of fantastic

lighting though, even in the real
scenes that it kind of worked out.

Like, cuz there was a lot of these
scenes where I wasn't quite sure if

it was night or day and I think it was
just like mood lighting cuz they're

like, okay, it's, everything's a blue
shift because of the mood and you know,

whether it's night or day shut up.

And I'm, and I'm like, I
will, it's a mood thing.

I'm into it.

You know,

Jeremy: I, I think they, they did a
lot of what looks like night for day

filming, and I, I think it works sort
of with the, Vibe of the movie where

everything is supposed to look ethereal.

Having the sky look kind of blue in the
middle of the night doesn't bother me

E. C. Martin: Yeah.

Carrie: Huh.

Jeremy: the way it always does when
I watch old westerns where it's just

like, you know, they've, they've
just clearly shot this during the day

and just put a blue filter over it.

looks bad

Carrie: always thought that
those things were I always like

those blue filtered things.

Those shots, I, I have a theory that
they're actually done during the day

or in the evening, like just around
the evening and the golden hour.

And then they just posted over the did
the blue shift over the post production.

just so that to save a time.

And I just sent a God, I hope that works.

Did I just send only an emoji?

That would be dumb?

Oh my God.

I super.

That's

Emmanuel: like, I don't know
what she's trying to communicate.

I'm not

Jeremy: hmm mm-hmm.

Pen.

Got it.

E. C. Martin: Got it.

Pen,

Jeremy: pens, labyrinth.

Carrie: There we go.

See if that works.

E. C. Martin: Here we go.

Carrie: I think that's one of the,

E. C. Martin: yes.

Emmanuel: That's legend
of the Hidden temple.

Carrie: yeah,

E. C. Martin: Yeah.

Carrie: yeah.

That's one of the ones I think they
kind of referenced with in that film.

Though again, you can find
them everywhere and anywhere.

there's, and they come from all
different areas, so of time and place.

So, they're really popular
in the Middle Ages.

And then there was also really popular to
create, do you guys know what folleys are

E. C. Martin: what, what kind
of Foley are you talking about?

Carrie: Folies in the 17th century
where they purposefully built ruins?

Emmanuel: What?

Ben: Man, people had too
much free time back then.

Emmanuel: And too much money.

Carrie: Yeah.

A lot of money.

Uh,

Jeremy: Video.

Carrie: We just play video games
now build, we build in Minecraft.

But yeah, so that's another thing that
they reminded the ruins there, kind of

reminded me of was the idea of folies
that you see in a lot of cases it was

like rich estates and stuff like that.

So there was this whole thing where
they wanted it to look like effortless,

effortlessly grown and beautiful.

Like you're walking into, into the
ruins of something that's been overgrown

and literally like almost verbatim,
they were just taking the ideas of

creating nature and gardening in a
way that would create things that

looked natural in unnatural ways.

So they did this whole thing where they
stopped doing the mowing the lawns and

they started just doing wildflowers and
stuff like that just for the sake of it.

Cuz they thought it was pretty.

And that's what the peasants had.

And so now the peasants didn't have,

E. C. Martin: Oh, it's like the,
the cottage core, basically, it's

basically cottage core of the

Carrie: it's it's like
gentrified gardening.

I don't,

E. C. Martin: I, I get that.

Yeah, I get that because it, yeah.

Carrie: anyway, that's
what it reminded me of too.

I'm trying to, I'm looking through
my notes here to see if there's

Jeremy: I am browsing.

To trivia there is so we've got
evidence to back up your your

religion in the Pale Man thing.

Apparently Guillermo Totoro conceived
the Pale Man as an illusion to the

perverted image of the stigmata.

E. C. Martin: mm.

Jeremy: ghastly wounds on his hands.

Um,

Carrie: surprise me, but it

makes me

Jeremy: to signify grace and plenty

E. C. Martin: That tracks.

Yeah.

I didn't even think of that at the time.

Like I, you know, we were talking
about, I was just thinking about

like, you know, the predatory nature
of of certain religious institutions.

But yeah, the

Ben: God,

E. C. Martin: on that guy,

Ben: that'd be fucked.

Like I'm imagine only seeing stuff
have like the viewpoint of your hands.

Carrie: The whole time he was
like waving at the ferries.

I was just like, what does that look like?

Ben: Cooking with citrus
fruits is right out the window.

E. C. Martin: well, that's
where he just relies on touch.

You know, he takes the, that's why he
was he had 'em out cuz, you know, he

wanted to eat those pomegranates and he
didn't wanna get the juice in his eyes.

Carrie: That's fair.

That's fair.

Ben: You know what?

Good way to keep watching TV while you
head to the kitchen to grab a snack?

E. C. Martin: but talk about like
a, a conflict of ideas, right?

Like within a design
and within a character.

Like, you know, you either see or you
touch, but you can't, like, you know,

that's, that's up there with the,
the, um, conflicted reality and all

of the the, the dichotomies and the
oh, what's the word I'm looking for?

The, the opposites.

Okay.

Duality.

Thank you.

The juxtaposition, duality,
all those good words.

Carrie: Yeah.

Okay.

speaking of which,

that is actually something that I did find
was that there's a weird sort of, okay, so

you have sort of the good versus the evil
that's sort of played as a theme here, but

then you also have the idea of innocence.

So I was sort of looking through some
notes and seeing what some bloggers and

stuff were saying, and this is something
that came up a lot with folks was that

they were talking about how you have as
far as themeing for the like the universal

sort of understood idea of this, this
film was sort of like, okay, if you're

looking for a theme for this film,
it's not good versus evil, it's moral

disobedience and the idea of disobeying
because it's the moral thing to do.

But also sort of the idea that if you
were gonna go into the good versus evil

sort of track, it's actually more like
good versus evil versus innocence and how

innocence can't really exist in between
good versus evil because there's all

this pain and suffering in, in between.

E. C. Martin: Yeah.

And that's, that comes up when you're
talking about Ophelia eating the

grape is that, being of child of
wartime, you know, you need to do

what you can to take care of yourself.

Right.

And the morality that is projected
on you that you are supposed to

invest in is not true morality.

And there's a, there's that is implicit.

So, you know, there is a real
moral disobedience, I think.

Carrie: And how you work within fascism.

E. C. Martin: yeah.

Yeah.

And like, and it's interesting too
because when I first saw this movie

and when she was, you know, eating the
grapes, I was like, well, he had one.

I mean, she's a kid.

Like, I can't

expect a kid.

Carrie: one job.

E. C. Martin: Yeah.

Like you, at first I'm like, you
had one job, but at the same time,

like if everybody did their one job
in this movie, then nothing would

change and everything would suck.

Right.

So, you

Carrie: and also

that's sort of the nature of
fairy tales in many cases.

It's sort of like, you don't do X
character does X and they mess up

because people are f Oh my God,

E. C. Martin: fell.

Carrie: thank you.

They're that.

And you know, sort of the idea that,
you know, okay, even your heroes

aren't gonna be perfect, but having
that chance to regroup and retry is

what's going to make it, is what's
gonna get you there in the end.

And there there is like this weird
sort of thing with a lot of fairy tales

where they focus on purity, especially
if they're if they're focused on

women, which don't get me started.

But it's like, it's sort of like a
weird idea of like somehow trickster

energy, but also general hero energy.

So sort of like the idea, like with
Jack and the Beanstalk Jack, you.

Grabs what he, I think he grabs the
harp and then takes it back down

the stalk and then is like, oh crap.

The giant's coming down.

What do I do?

Then it just drops down the beanstalk and
I'm like, somebody, there's like a whole

sl, there's like kilometers of beanstalk
and people having a really bad day.

Cause they just decided
to cut that thing down.

Anyway,

E. C. Martin: yeah, yeah, Oh,
Emmanuel, you were saying.

Emmanuel: No, I mean, just going back
to the whole idea of fairy tales in

general, there's no story if you're
perfect, there's no story if you

fall, if you're obedient, right?

The story happens when you
deviate, when you leave the path,

when you make the choice that
carries you off into adventure.

I think it's from Brian Kevon saga, right?

But it's the idea that children have
to leave home to have an adventure.

There's no story if you just stay
at home where it's safe, and so,

Carrie: Yeah.

E. C. Martin: Yeah, it's
the call essentially.

Carrie: You know

Jeremy: I think there's, there's this,
something to the, the mischief side of

things in this, because I think like,
It is in English called Pan's Labyrinth,

but that's not the original title of it.

It's, you know, in Spanish.

It's just the labyrinth of the fun.

And like Kira Totoro said,
like, it's not pan like, you

know, pan is weird and sexual

and not probably appropriate
for this particular endeavor.

But he is, he is much more like, I
don't, sort of like the, you know, Cassie

trickster you know, puck type fun you
know, from, from a Midsummer Night Dream.

You know, and he does, he does trick her.

He does, you know, he, he does have to
trick her for her to get through the,

you know, the tests and everything.

And I think that, you know,
that energy is, is more sort of

concentrated on the side of good in
this case, especially as fascism.

This ultimate fantasy of control
is the villain in this movie.

Carrie: Mm-hmm.

I definitely agree with that for sure.

Jeremy: I mean, the one thing we don't
have, I think, you know, that we normally

talk about here is sort of, there's n
there's no sort of queer characters.

There's no real L G B T
representation in this story.

At least not that, that I can find.

Do you guys have anything to contest that?

Carrie: Hmm.

I couldn't think on that one.

Not, couldn't think, but I, I

can't really think of anything.

Ben: there.

Carrie: Yeah.

Jeremy: Yeah.

It's,

Carrie: Almost.

Almost,

Jeremy: yeah, it doesn't, other than the,
you know, the desire of Ophelia not to

have kids specifically, there's nothing
else that sort of reads queer about any

of the, the characters and stuff there.

I do think, obviously we've talked
a lot about the, like, class and

social justice aspects of it.

Do you, do you guys feel like I mean,
I, I know, I know how I feel about this.

Do you guys feel like
this is a feminist movie?

Carrie: I feel like it
is to a certain degree.

Yes.

I think it talks about what it
is like to be female I guess cis

gender female to a certain extent.

Since we don't have much
LGBTQ representation.

But I think

Jeremy: I mean, ultimately the
downfall of the captain is that

he un he underestimates women.

Carrie: basically, yeah.

To me it is actually quite,
quite a feminist film.

But I mean, again, Guillermo has that
sort of habit in a lot of his films of,

Ben: Yeah, like I definitely don't think
there's anything sex or toxic here.

I think everything's
very presented very well.

I mean, let's see.

Mercedes is the character who
gets all the big hero moments.

Jeremy: Yeah, I mean, to call vi
toxically masculine is undershooting it.

I

Ben: that, that's under the, at
a certain point you just are a

Jeremy: because like he literally,
like, the only thing he's

concerned about is, is his son.

Like he does not care about the welfare
of his son's mother, of his own, you know,

this girl who should be his stepdaughter.

He should be treating as such, like, were
very, and one of the trivias I was looking

at, they were, they pointed out that the
the, the way you greet a group of people,

if they were all women is one word.

And you know, if there's men among
them and it's a mixed group, you would,

would go with the masculine word.

And when he greets his, his wife and
stepdaughter he greets them as if there

is a man in the group specifically because
the only thing he cares about is the son.

Like,

Emmanuel: wild.

Carrie: Yeah,

Emmanuel: No, I remember watching,

sorry, go ahead.

No, I just, I remember watching it,
they make a big deal of his shaving

with the straight razor and I was like,
man, that's like weirdly old school.

Like surely safety razors
were invented not too long.

Seemed to into like
the 19 hundreds for 40.

He's been able to get.

A regular razor, but no, he wants
to think of himself as like, I

don't know, Billy Jean or something.

I just like go around with this
ridiculously dangerous weapon

at his throat, just like that.

That is toxically masculine, right?

The, I could use a safety razor,
but safety is for non men.

I'm gonna use a straight razor.

Carrie: Yeah.

You know, I have to admit, there's a one
scene where he's like shaving and looking

at himself in the mirror, and then he is
like pretending to cut his own throat.

And that is one scene where I'm just
like, I don't under, like, I feel like I

miss the boat or miss the memo on that.

It's just like, what is this showing
that he has a death wish that he is?

Like, what is that telling us?

I, I, I, that was one of the scenes
where I was like, is this necessary?

Emmanuel: I mean, if you've got

that watch, you gotta think

Ben: over the top.

Emmanuel: mind, right?

Ben: Yeah.

It's also just this like God, just this.

Just showing just how
much, just dumb machos.

There's all a part of that and
it's all just like pride and

appearances and fucking bullshit.

Jeremy: He had this weird obsession
with his father and that he, you know,

is more, more obsessed with his own
son, like, Knowing that he, you know,

was a, was a warrior and was in this
fight to the end than anything else.

Yeah, he's, he's a realm bitch.

But yeah, like I, I think toxically
vascular is underselling it.

He is incredibly toxic on all fronts,
but especially on a masculine front.

E. C. Martin: For real though.

Jeremy: Yeah.

I, I don't know that it says anything
particularly interesting about mental

health, but, you know, we do have
the, the mom is sort of representing

this sort of physical disability and
being, you know, basically sedated

into staying in bed all the time.

By, you know, by this, by viele
to, to preserve the baby, you know,

E. C. Martin: I mean, he's also,

Jeremy: in her.

E. C. Martin: vial is super ableist too.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Carrie: ableist.

Oh,

Jeremy: The fucking worst.

Carrie: he's, he's pretty up there for me
as far as like worst villains, but yeah.

I don't know.

The, the part that like, kind of like is
gut wrenching for me is the scene where

the book warns her about her mother and
how things are not going well like that,

like just I have a bunch of friends right
now who are having their first, or you

know, about to have their first, and just
watching that scene, I'm just like, I

cannot imagine being 11 and seeing that
happen to your mom and, and somehow not

like, like, like how do you process that?

Like, to me, I mean, if there's a really
traumatic scene in that film, for me

personally, it's actually that, because
I can't tell you how many people I

know who have like infertility issues
and the thing they're terrified of

the most is wiping and finding blood

E. C. Martin: Yeah.

Well, and she does initially describe her
mom's pregnancy as her mom being sick with

baby.

Right.

And, and, you know, and that's,
it's interesting because most of the

time, you know, kids will be like,
oh yes, well, you know, mom and

daddy are having a baby, or whatever.

I mean, like in, in these sort
of idealized or, you know, it's,

it's never that they see the.

The baby as the, an illness of the parent.

So much like the illness is a, is
a symptom certainly, but they it,

it seems clear to me that Ophelia
doesn't really recognize the baby

really as a living thing until
she actually has it in her hands.

Jeremy: I don't know.

That conversation she has with the baby
before the baby's born is heart-wrenching.

And she's like, and she's like, Hey man
just so you know, like you've got a, a

mom out here that like, okay, she's sad
a lot, but when she smiles, she's really

beautiful and I really just love it.

If you didn't kill her on the way
out, like just if you could just

not hurt her, that would be great.

E. C. Martin: Yeah.

Well, I think, I think it's when the,
the mom, actually, you're right, I

think she doesn't quite get it until
the, until her mom starts hemorrhaging.

And then that's when she's like,
okay, so this is a real thing.

Like this isn't just mom being
kind of sick and, you know, talking

about her, her little, you know,
her little brother being in there.

Like now she sees that there's, there's
evidence, like physical evidence of this.

Which begs the question, what was,
if, if the book was showing that,

what was her quest supposed to be?

Carrie: I think that book
was just simply warning her.

It, it wasn't necessarily a quest cuz
she didn't even ask it for a quest.

She just opened it up and
the book started bleeding.

And it a, actually, that's another point.

It's where when the book starts bleeding,
it starts bleeding, spiraling out and from

the ovaries and into the uterus and down.

E. C. Martin: Yeah, it does
create the uterus pattern.

Carrie: yeah, nah, that's that's
a scene that's just really, really

just, just very visceral for me.

And then there's also like a, one of
the things that I was kind of playing

with and being like, huh, is the the
story that Ophelia tells her, her

brother, About the rose, like the
blue rose, that's wilting because no

one will is brave enough to pick it.

Because when you look at her, her dress
at the end of the film, it ha it's covered

in red roses, but then they're red.

So I don't know, like part of me
is like, there's something there,

but I, I'm just not grasping it.

E. C. Martin: Yeah, I mean, if I was
really reaching I would say that there

is something here in this movie about.

The idea of memory and being remembered as
the legacy that, you know, with the vial

is so obsessed with leaving a legacy with
his son because he wants to be remembered.

Carrie: Mm-hmm.

E. C. Martin: there's this threat that
the phone has that that if Ophelia

never regains her mystical essence,
then she will be forgotten forever.

Carrie: Mm-hmm.

E. C. Martin: And I think that the,
there is a statement here, not sure

exactly what it is, but I think it
is a statement of, you know, the, the

the child's life, you know, or what
you proliferate, what you procreate

isn't always physical as a child.

It's about a legacy, whether it be an idea
or a or an ideal or a person, you know,

a human being like the baby, you know?

And I think that what if we're
gonna be talking about how the,

the idea of menstruation and
procreation is involved here.

I think that, and the fact that Ophelia
is an at all excited about having kids and

she just really doesn't wanna have kids.

I don't think that there is any.

Judgment passed on the idea of fertility.

It's more like the idea that you
leave behind or the ideals you

leave behind is another form of
procreation and proliferation of

yourself, if that makes any sense.

Does that make sense Form?

Tell me.

Carrie: I think

Jeremy: don't know.

The, the, the Rose story
kinda kind of gets me too.

I don't, I don't know exactly what the
the idea is, but I, I think the, like,

it has this feeling of being about
like you know, I, I guess things that

are worthwhile being difficult like
that, you know, it's that this thing

is, this Rose has a promise, like it
has potential, but like, it is because

people are afraid of the thorns.

They don't attempt to get the
rose like that, they don't

attempt to reach this thing.

Cause they don't say like, oh, tons of
people died trying to get to the rose.

They say, oh, like people stopped
going because it was, it was, you

know, too dangerous and too difficult.

And Ophelia is a person, is the only
person in this who is, you know,

not afraid to sort of believe in
the possibility of, of something

better, of something different.

You know, and, and try to, you know,
overcome these challenges to get to it.

But like, yeah, I, I think,
you know, the, the fascist.

In particular are, you know,
they, they have no imagination.

They have no desire to, to
reach for something you know,

difficult and, and hard to reach.

They just want to, you
know, beat it out of people.

I don't know.

E. C. Martin: I, and,

Carrie: Question.

What are the, are the uniforms
that psycho dads dudes wear blue?

E. C. Martin: I think, so
they're on the blue spectrum.

Let me double check, because
everything was blue for a while.

Carrie: Yeah.

So, Uh, no, but I mean, I'm thinking about
that and the fact that Guillermo actually

did say that when he was thinking about
the sort of fantasy fairytale realm that

was sort of world, everything was really
warm versus the real world being cold.

E. C. Martin: Yeah.

Carrie: maybe that blue flower
isn't about Ophelia at all.

Maybe it's about psycho dad and the fact
that he surrounded himself with poison

so he can't get what he wants because
he's poisoned everything around him.

his his immortality will not, or his
legacy isn't gonna succeed because

everything around him is just poisoned.

E. C. Martin: I think that's a lot more
profound than were, I mean, like, I think

that's more on point than the sort of
neb, I mean, like vial as a character

is probably one of the more, you know,
the, the closest thing to, we get to a

sympathetic character just because we,
or in terms of all of like the fascists,

even though he's awful, he does have a
reason that for his awfulness maybe sort

of, not, you know, compared to the like
actually human characters in the story.

He's monstrous as all get out, but he
does have an ideal that he's reaching.

It is perverse but it's, it's also
interesting because I, you know,

whenever you see flowers, especially
flowers on the end of like a, of the

imagery of a fallopian tube you know,
you, you come to mind sensuality

and fertility and, and feminine, you
know, parts, I guess, like, you know,

traditionally coded feminine parts.

And I don't think that is
really as relevant in this case.

Like, I don't think the
rose represents that.

But

Carrie: a theory.

E. C. Martin: it is a no, I, I like that.

I like that as a theory.

I like that as a theory a lot because,
you know, the, the, the fantasy of

fascism is important to address.

And that's, you know, again, like integer
rabbit where they talk about how these,

these the fantasy of this propaganda
can like just turn on itself so easily

when the, the system falls apart.

Carrie: Yeah.

You know, I think this is also something
interesting that I found out is that

during world War ii, I think it was
specifically in allied controlled areas

they actually banned brothers grim fairy
tales from being read because they were

mostly concerned that it would it would
make like, it had a couple stereo,

there's stereotypes in them that they had
found problematic for the Jewish people.

But then it also, they, they, there's like
this whole thing about fairy tales are two

violent and they're going to just, they're
going to encourage people to be butcher

more people or something like that.

So, the idea that Ophelia still
has them is, and why she brought

them is actually really interesting
to me because, you know, she has

access to them when other children.

Allied occupied areas don't.

So anyway, I just found that to be
an interesting level tidbit there.

E. C. Martin: Yeah.

Carrie: and also kind

of going

E. C. Martin: uniforms are the, the
fascist uniforms are kind of a blue gray,

Carrie: Okay.

E. C. Martin: so they're, we have that.

Carrie: Theory stamped.

Don't ask me to defend it.

I don't know.

Jeremy: Well, we could certainly, I
think, talk about this movie all night.

We've already done it quite a bit.

But I think it's time for us to start
reeling it in and for me to ask guys,

would we recommend people check this out?

I know, Ben, you've had some
some diverse thoughts on this.

Would you recommend this to somebody else?

Ben: sure.

It's good.

E. C. Martin: It is good.

You do like it?

Jeremy: Yeah,

E. C. Martin: Okay.

Ben: it's just, I just watched
after 16 years of being like,

yo, y'all gotta see this.

This is like one of the most mind
blowing fantasy movies you've ever seen.

Like just the imagination in every
scene is just gonna blow you away.

You've never seen anything like Pans
Labyrinth, and I'm like, it didn't

quite live up to 16 years of that

Emmanuel: Why'd you eat 16 years

E. C. Martin: Yeah,

Ben: I've been busy.

Jeremy: watch all the Fast and the
Furious films 10 times, you know, this is

just, something's gotta be done.

Yeah.

It would be like, if, like,
you were super excited about

watching the Fast and The Furious.

Somebody's like, it's the best
movie about car racing ever.

And then you actually watched The Fast
and the Furious and you were like,

not a movie about car racing at all.

Ben: yeah.

Emmanuel: family?

E. C. Martin: It is

about

family.

In that case, it's kind of a bonus, but

Jeremy: Yeah.

What about the rest of you guys?

I, I feel like I know the answer to this.

Would you recommend people check this out?

Emmanuel: Absolutely.

I wish I could show it in my
class, but it's rated R so

it's probably not gonna happen.

Carrie: You might be able to do
it if you send like permission

Emmanuel: Yeah,

it's

Ben: you need the

permission slip to like, hey, A Nazi is
going to take a wine bottle and then smash

a man's face in with it so many times

that there just is

Emmanuel: the issue,

E. C. Martin: Yeah.

Carrie: I hate that sentence.

Ben: and you just get, he
does not die from that.

He just, no, he is still just like
rising around, crawling around,

just not having any of the things
that would constitute a face.

And it's just, I don't like it.

I mean, I like it in that it is very
intense movie villain being awful,

but I, Ooh, I mean, it is, it is
tough seeing a man not have a face

Carrie: it's not Okay.

Jeremy: I feel like it'd be easy.

I have an easier time getting this
one past than the Fishman movie

Emmanuel: Yeah.

Jeremy: are sexy times with

Ben: look, this is America.

You can always get violence approved
where mild sex will get you fired.

Carrie: yeah, that's true.

I think I definitely recommend
this to just about anybody.

Even if folks do have kids, you know,
I'd basically be like, do you let

your kids watch horror movies and
what kind of horror movies are they?

Okay.

So if you're okay with that, then
you should be okay with this.

E. C. Martin: That's true.

Yeah.

Carrie: I guess my main concern
is like, okay, have they watched

subtitled stuff before or will this
be their first time doing that?

Maybe like,

Jeremy: All the kids today watch anime, so

Carrie: man.

All they have

Jeremy: be

Carrie: to is dubs.

E. C. Martin: no.

You can get all this crunchy rolls cheap.

You can, it's all subs on there, baby.

Carrie: really?

E. C. Martin: Yeah,

Carrie: You just, You just,

taught an

Jeremy: some of them, but yeah,
some of them have options.

And as does Hulu, all the anime
on Hulu is sub or dubbed, but

Carrie: Oh.

Jeremy: you can watch, you can watch Sail
Moon in Japanese or in English on them.

They still have the Japanese theme song.

They don't have that ridiculous American
Sailor Moon theme song from the nineties.

Emmanuel: You mean the classing?

E. C. Martin: I mean, I like that song,

but you know.

'
Carrie: em both.

E. C. Martin: Yeah, I
think they're both valid.

Carrie: Yeah.

They

can

both

Jeremy: Evil by Moonlight.

Emmanuel: love by daylight, never running

Carrie: You know, I'm just,

Emmanuel: is the one sailor moon.

E. C. Martin: She'll never
turn her back on the front.

She'll always be there in.

She's the one upon whom you can't depend

Carrie: she is the one sailing it.

E. C. Martin: say who, who.

I mean, at least they
kept the, the original.

Jeremy: I don't know that I
would call you Sagi, particularly

dependable, but you know,

E. C. Martin: she's, she's dependable in
terms of like friendship, like no matter

what, she's like, I'll be there for you

and

Jeremy: she will be half
an hour late and have

forgotten

Emmanuel: friends

Ben: Yeah, not

physically there.

She'll be there for, you just
don't actually need her to be at a

particular place at a particular time.

Carrie: He is the person that you tell an
hour and a half before they're supposed

to show up, that they're supposed to show

E. C. Martin: But she's late because
she's helping another friend.

Like, that's the thing is that she's just
helping everybody and the only reason

that she's late is she's overwhelmed
by the number of people that she's

helping with the power friendship.

Jeremy: I've seen Sailor Moon,
she also just sleeps in late.

Carrie: She

Jeremy: not get up on time.

Carrie: but have you seen
what she's doing at night?

I'd wanna sleep in too.

E. C. Martin: Yeah.

I think she's valid

Emmanuel: Yeah.

Jeremy: say she wasn't valid.

I just said she's not always there when
you call, and she isn't always on time.

Carrie: Luna is always on her ass.

So

E. C. Martin: true.

Carrie: But yeah, I definitely
think that this is something

I would recommend to anybody.

I actually have a question for you guys.

What

is the fantasy real or not?

E. C. Martin: I think it doesn't
matter whether it is or not,

Jeremy: that's my answer too.

It doesn't matter.

Ben: I think Leonardo
DiCaprio was still in it.

Dream.

E. C. Martin: better be.

Carrie: I'm sorry.

What?

Wait,

Ben: Oh, I decide to reference Inception.

I decide to make an inception joke

Emmanuel: I, it threw me
for a loop, but I got there.

Carrie: okay.

I

only just got there

Emmanuel: I was like, wait,
was Leo in this movie?

God, I gotta start being,
I gotta get ADHD drugs.

Like, I'm not focused at

Carrie: That's where I was.

Emanuel.

I'm

Ben: I think it's only, I think it's
only real to Ophelia, but within

the terms of the movie, does it?

I don't think it matters
if it's real to anyone

Emmanuel: Right.

E. C. Martin: Yeah.

Ben: as it's real to her,

E. C. Martin: It's like, is Hobbs real?

Ben: as in Hobbs and Shaw.

E. C. Martin: No.

The Tiger

Carrie: Hobbs.

Jeremy: Then

Calvin and Hobbs, not Hobbs and Shaw.

Although if that Hobbs
was in Hobbs and Shaw,

that would be a fascinating

film.

E. C. Martin: Shaw.

Jeremy: Yeah.

If it was, if it was the rock and a giant.

I guess the Rock is Hobbs, isn't he?

So it would be

Emmanuel: I was gonna say it's more
entertaining with Jason Sta and Hobbs.

That sounds delightful.

Jeremy: You know

Emmanuel: They should make a
sequel and just switch em out.

Jeremy: We make up the rules
as we go along, don't we?

Sorry,

this is, I'm now recasting a
Calvin Confident Hobbs movie

with Jason, Nathan as Calvin.

Okay, sorry.

Okay.

With that said, what are we recommend to
go check out if they enjoyed this film?

I guess if they didn't as well.

Keri, what do you got?

Carrie: Again, I have the book
called The Uses of Enchantment,

the Meaning and Importance of
Fairy Tales by Bruno Bettelheim.

I will always recommend the original
versions of any fairy tales you can

find, specifically if there's any ones
that you can find from other cultures.

Yoshi Yoshi actually has a beautiful
tarot set, which is all based on

folk tales and fairy tales from
across the globe pictured with art.

And if you, you can actually just get
the fairy tales and stuff in a book.

And the art is just beautiful and it's
just really it's a really cool opening

for a lot of folks on, you know, okay,
what can you get besides Cinderella?

What is their outside, within
the realm of fairytale and folk

tales that isn't Eurocentric?

So I definitely suggest I think
it's called the, oh, I'll get

the name of it later, but.

E. C. Martin: Let me look
it up cuz I'm, I own that.

I own the tarot and there's
a book that goes with it.

Alicia, I love you.

You are mvp.

Sorry for making this difficult.

oops.

There we go.

Fuck.

Nevermind.

Hold on.

Carrie: Is it Terra or the Vine?

E. C. Martin: I think
it's Tara the Divine.

Yeah, Tara the Divine.

And then there's a Tara
of the Divine Handbook.

Carrie: Yes.

E. C. Martin: Yeah.

So, and that she has Yoshi, Yoshi
has a store, she has a Instagram.

You can get the Tero, you
can get the handbook, you can

get the Tero deck by itself.

You can get them together.

Carrie: Yeah.

And one of the things I love about the
Terra Deck, if anybody's interested

in it, is because of the fairy tales
and stuff that are within it, you can

actually get a better understanding
of actually what the card means.

So like for example, if you pull the
empress, you get something like or

no, the Magician, you get something
like the, the fairy Godmother.

I think it's which sort of tells
you more about what that that card

means and all that kind of stuff.

So it's pretty cool.

E. C. Martin: Yeah.

Jeremy: Manuel, what have you got?

Emmanuel: it rules,

it's, you got the family stuff, you've
got allegorical, myriad experiences.

You've got fantastical creatures that
maybe you shouldn't really trust.

They're kind of intriguing and
that unsettling, but kind of.

Beautiful creature design.

I, it's, it's great.

It's another one that like I saw in
theaters and I just couldn't think, stop

thinking about and also saw in theaters
and there were definitely children that

audience who should not have been there.

E. C. Martin: Nice.

Emmanuel: it's great.

Please watch Coraline also
watch everything by like the

studios cuz they're incredible.

Carrie: Yes, they are

Jeremy: indeed.

Uh, Ben, what have you?

Ben: I will say check out
Labyrinth, but do not check out Pan.

E. C. Martin: Good call.

Good call.

Carrie: right.

There's just a movie called Pan.

Ben: There is, it's a Peter Pan movie
from 20, it's one of those 2010s.

Let's try to turn everything into
an M C U style franchise, but with

Peter Pan, you'll take a look.

You'll look at 'em when people like,
Ooh, this looks interesting, but

then you'll be like, oh no, it's not.

Carrie: Okay.

Ben: Yeah.

E. C. Martin: Yeah.

Jeremy: Mm-hmm.

Emily,

E. C. Martin: So I mentioned Jojo Rabbit.

But what I really wanna recommend is
if you're looking for a story that is

about trauma, about processing trauma
and is incredibly imaginative and builds

beautiful visual language there's a
video game called Greece that is gray

in Spanish, and it's a story of a girl
dealing with loss, and she is going

through the various stages of grief
and returning color to her own world,

Carrie: That

E. C. Martin: really beautiful.

Yeah.

You okay, Jeremy?

You did you.

Were you thinking

Jeremy: So you, you
pronounced it Greece and.

My first thought was, tell
me more, tell me more.

E. C. Martin: Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, yes.

Jeremy: Which I would play a video game
of Grease just to put it out there, if

anybody feels like making a video game
of Grease, I don't know how that would

work, but I'm sure you could do it.

There's, there's,

E. C. Martin: Just wait.

Jeremy: Hmm.

Carrie: huh?

E. C. Martin: games.

Emmanuel: I, I

think I've only seen grease once, and I
always confuse it with crybaby in my head.

Does

Grease have

Jeremy: those are

Emmanuel: a scene where they're
like driving cars at each

other, or is that only crybaby?

Carrie: Oh, the musical.

Jeremy: racing cars, they race cars

Emmanuel: So they don't
play chicken and grease?

They do

Jeremy: No,

Emmanuel: and cry, baby.

Jeremy: they do talk about
cars as if they're penises

or an entire musical number.

That's grease.

E. C. Martin: Okay,

so you say crybaby and then
you know where I like cry.

Oh, the movie crybaby,
not the other things.

Jeremy: No, not devil Man.

So I, I went back and forth.

There's a lot of stuff.

This is sort of my like, area of things
that I like to recommend stuff in on this.

And I, I recommended mirror mask last
week already, so I can't do that.

But Going off carrie's discussion of the
particular interpretations of this movie

and what it does, and doesn't mean I wanna
recommend the Company of Wolves the Neil

Jordan film based on the Angela Carter
fairy tales which you can find in the

bloody chamber, which is the, the book.

And this is yeah, it's another fairytale
that's all about menstruation and becoming

a woman and men and all that shit.

Also, Neil Jordan, if you haven't
read any of his books or watched

any of his movies is super wild.

Maybe read about the Crying
Game before you watch that.

But other than that I would recommend
almost anything Neil Jordan has done.

But in particular, the company evolves
which is really good and keeps that

same sort of like fairytale for a
metaphor of a very serious thing.

You know, and again, not sure how
much of it's real, how much of

it's metaphor within the story.

But it's definitely worth
checking out as are the Angela

Carter's stuff that it's based on.

So like, you know, can
read the bloody chamber.

Go for it.

But yeah, that's, that's
my recommendation.

It's company evolves.

That's everybody.

Everybody's recommended things.

Okay.

So, that wraps it up for us.

Carrie, can you let people know
where they can find out more about

you and, and what you do online?

Carrie: Sure you can find
me anywhere and everywhere.

Twitter, Instagram master on all
those places at mermaid shells.

And I have a comic that I write and
do art for called Kamikaze so you

can find more@kamikazecomic.com.

Jeremy: Nice.

And Emmanuel, what about you?

Emmanuel: I'm on Twitter at Ellis come two
talking about teaching in books and such.

Jeremy: Nice.

As for the rest of us, you can find Emily
at Mega Moth on Twitter at mega underscore

moth on Instagram and@megamoth.net.

Ben is on Twitter, Ben the Con, and
on their website@benconcom.com, where

we can pick up all of their books and
pre-order l Campbell wins their weekend.

Ben's debut graphic novel from Scholastic.

And finally for me, you can find me on
Twitter and Instagram, j Rome five eight,

and on my website@jeremywhitley.com,
where you can find everything I write.

And you can also pre-order the dog Night,
which is the graphic novel I have coming

out with one of our frequent guests,
Marie Indigo which launches this may.

So pre-order it now.

And of course the podcast is on Patreon.

It progressively horrified on our website,
it progressively horrified dot transistor

fm and on Twitter prog horror pod,
where we would love to hear from you.

And speaking of loving to hear
from you, we would love it if

you rate and review the podcast
wherever you're listening to it.

It helps us find new listeners
when you give us five stars.

And it gets us out there to more people.

Thanks again to our guests for joining us.

Carrie Emmanuel.

It's been great.

This is a, I feel like this is a movie
we could spend a whole day talking about.

E. C. Martin: Absolutely.

Emmanuel: Pleasure.

Carrie: If you do
Pinocchio, please, please,

Jeremy: Yes.

So

Carrie: to be there for Pinocchio.

Jeremy: I feel like we could
easily dedicate a whole nother

month to Guillermo do Toro.

Cause we're, we're finishing this up
with the Shape of Water next week.

And we've, like, in addition to
this, we've already done two other

camera, though, Torah movies.

There's still more to talk about,
so they just keep, he just the hits.

Just keep 'em coming.

Carrie: Hmm.

Jeremy: And again, thanks
to all of you for listening.

Thank you to Ben and Emily for joining me.

And until next time, stay horrified.

E. C. Martin: Clap