Alicia: Previously on
progressively horrified.

Jeremy: It's Emily's birthday.

We're talking about an anime series.

that has been mentioned uh, and
at least half of the episodes of

this podcast, it isn't strictly
speaking either horror or a movie.

Emily is using this podcast as a way
to finally get me to watch and talk

about Neon Genesis, even Gallian.

with me tonight, I have a
panel of chil and SNA bites.

My co-host Ben Conn.

Our co-host, Emily Martin.

Also, joining us from talking comics
Bron, when Kelly say and my collaborator

on school for extra ter real girls.

Jamie Ucci.

Emily: This show isn't
just about teenagers.

It's all, it's also about bureaucracy.

All of the fun shit.

You know, just to recap, Kaji is dead.

Ra a clone, Asuka's catatonic shining.

He's depressed.

Morey?

Macado is finding out everything that's
going on and re goes like, I'm in

jail because I killed all the Reis.

Then a mysterious pretty boy pilot
comes straight outta nowhere and is

all like, I'm your backup pilot now.

And everyone is side
eyeing the hell outta him.

This is Kaworu star of stage and
screen of everybody's fanfic.

Mm-hmm.

Jeremy: I would say Shinji
is not side eyeing him.

He's full eyeing him.

No, no, no.

He is here to unlock shining Z's closet.

Oh.

Emily: Everybody's side eyeing him except
for Shinji, who is can I have more eyes?

Jeremy: Everyone else is like, Hey, all
of his background information's redacted.

I've listen a

Emily: lot of boobies over

Jeremy: the last few after those.

He's just like, I want
to kiss the boy now.

Emily: This is what you want.

I've had too many boobies.

I've just tired of boobies.

Don't wish, I wish I was an angel
so I could have more eyes to

look at this pretty, it's just

Jeremy: this real, like this brief
relationship he has with uh, with Kaworu

is just so much more or less stressful
and psychologically fucked up for him than

it is with all of the women in his life.

Is

Emily: it though,

Jeremy: I mean, does talk to
him and seem to be genuinely

interested in what he says?

True something's, I mean the end is
pretty psychologically breaking, everybody

else wants sh you to get in the robot.

Cal just wants sh you to get in him.

So,

Emily: Although I think Shinji
wants Kaworu to get into him.

I was gonna say,

Jeremy: yeah.

Shinji seems like the
bottom in this dynamic

Emily: something something entry plug.

Okay, so,

?
Jeremy: Yeah, Shinji.

Shinji does not take charge.

I'm gonna say Kaworu has
real power, bottom energy.

Like he would, he does, but the
bottom he's gonna have to shots.

Yeah,

Emily: yeah, yeah.

I, I think whatever cow
wants is what's gonna happen.

That's true.

Which is proven here,

Jeremy: including being killed by

Emily: Yeah.

Cow, Kaworu shows up and everyone's
like, oh, this weird, Andy's like,

this is kinda weird, but in the way
that like, something's going right

and I don't know what to do about it.

Kaworu is like raves, lax melanin
and a certain understanding

about how to be human.

But instead of being distant and
reserved, , like Rei is, he just goes

on about how beautiful and fragile
humans are because that's something

that human would totally say,

Jeremy: obviously.

Emily: does he say human?

Oh, he says, he says human sometimes.

And other times he says lil, which
is like, unless he go into this

knowing about, the story of Lilith.

Yeah.

You're like, what the
fuck are you saying, dude?

Shit.

She doesn't give a shit language.

Jeremy: She's like, just say you love me.

Things that a guy that isn't
an angel would totally say.

Emily: Right.

I'm so down with being worthy
of your grace . This, your, this

Jeremy: is the part where, and it will
continue through the next several episodes

that I feel really connected to Otto as
somebody who's created things and then

had the rug pulled out from under me

Yes.

And had to be like, I have to
finish this, which means I have to

fit like, The material from like
30 episodes into three episodes.

Like they introduce Kaworu, they have
an entire relationship, and he kills

Kaworu by the end of one episode.

And it's like, that should
have been at least a season.

Yeah, that should have been like
an arc or at least a two harder.

Emily: the Evangelion, The official
Evangelion Mongo, which actually

came out after the series there's
a translation of it uh, from Dark

Horse that's actually really good.

And the editor for that is Carl
Gustof Horn, and he has a few essays

that he, he does in the backs.

Yeah, I've heard him.

Yeah.

And he talks about Kaworu and the
comparison between Kaworu and the

Manga and Kaworu in the anime.

And there's a huge difference between that
story and the manga and then an anime.

But in the anime, he refers to
Kaworus 10 Minute Life and One

Minute Death, which I think is one
of the best things I've ever heard.

Jeremy: If you want a manga storyline
that I think really it's like a lot of

the same themes of like Kaworu story and
gets enough space to actually be a full

arc is the bomb Girl arc of Chainsaw Man.

Oh yeah.

Mm-hmm.

. lots of themes of.

This character who is just main character,
has just received no love at all.

Finally being given a tease of a
real, legitimate human romantic

connection, only to have that ripped
away in the most horrifying of ways.

Yeah.

Emily: Yeah.

Cause Shinji here is like finally
at, at this point where he is

like, wow, maybe, maybe anywhere
can be heaven if I choose to live

Instead.

It's like maybe maybe I deserve love.

I'm apparently worthy of somebody's grace.

He deserves grace.

Yeah.

Um, Except wa wa yeah.

Cows an angel and you have to kill him.

Shinji.

L M F A O.

Jeremy: Kaworu also does a cool
magic trick where he does pilots

uh, unit two from outside of unit
two, which not something any of the

other angels have been able to do.

Emily: Yeah.

This is because Kaworu possesses
the soul of Adam and all of the

a, the Ava, like Ava unit two and
above also are cloned from Adam.

And that's what makes Ava unit
one and two different because

they're cloned from Lillith.

So where is Adam in all this?

Adam is

Jeremy: agenda's hand.

Ah, which he uses that hand to Jart

He doesn't have, I think definitely.

Would the supply of women who for some
reason just wanna have sex with him,

Emily: that Dick has gotta be bombed?

Maybe it's Adam, maybe.

Well, no, he didn't have Adam in
his hand when he was like banging

Roots Go's mom, whose name I can't
remember for the life of me apparently.

Poor woman.

Jeremy: She's a Rego's mom.

Yes.

That's Magi lady.

But yeah, the, the Adam stuff
like baby Adam in the hand.

That definitely feels.

A full season of shit.

Like there is more stuff there.

Like gun Damm had 50 episodes.

Yeah.

Or, or plus.

Emily: Okay.

Jeremy

Jeremy: three movies.

And this feels like this
show needed 80 episodes.

Emily: Yeah, sure did.

For the record, we've broken

Jeremy: Jeremy and I don't even know how,
I just need to say, I know it's kind of

wrong, but that computer's rets goes Mom

Yes.

Sorry.

It was in my head.

That is if we get nothing
from this episode, but that

it would've been worth it.

Oh, that's amazing.

Emily: That's fucking ingenious . Like I

Jeremy: do love, like, I mean, at
least with end of Evangelion, we get

to actually see the big crazy thing
the whole series has been leading up

to, and we see like how it happened.

Mm-hmm.

, like the way the show was originally
constructed, it cuts from Cal's death

straight to, and now back to the human
instrumentality already in progress.

Yes.

Emily: Meanwhile,

Jeremy: it just looks like Shinji had a
gay awakening, killed his first boyfriend,

immediately went completely insane.

I mean, yes.

You know what, which,
which contract which he did

Yes.

We're, it looks like we are
now seeing him go insane from

entirely within his own head.

Emily: Yes.

And that focus shift is a
little bit disconcerting.

It's jarring.

Yeah.

Um, Indeed.

as well as the budgetary one style shift.

The entire presentation shift.

Yeah.

What can we afford?

Crayons.

Yeah.

Get drawn.

Listen, we only have so much.

This is gonna be a out, I
rated this from my kids' room.

We have to, we have to
finish this TV show.

What do we have?

Jersey Japanese guys.

What do we have in the Kill Your
Darlings file that we haven't used yet?

, right.

Crayons.

Shinji takes about a
minute to kill Kaworu.

He deliberates.

Kaworu also identifies the
marshmallow man as lil, if not Adam,

that's important as porn point.

Mm-hmm.

. And the cow's like the ultimate
freedom is choosing when you wanna die.

I was supposed to do this thing,
but now I'm going to choose Shinji.

Please kill mes.

Which I maintain is they tried to
failure force him to be hetero.

He said, fuck that noise.

I want Adam or Shinji, but
none of this lith nonsense.

You're going have to kill me.

I will say I can't even
imagine the how proud they must

have been when they came up.

The idea of like, and then we just show a
freeze frame of Cji pausing before killing

him for a solid minute, where they're
like, Ooh, this is gonna be so character

driven and moody and artsy, and also
save us a lot of money on this episode.

They do a lot of that shit,
and I fucking kudos to 'em.

I wanna hear about all of y'all's
experience with that moment of the show,

because when I saw that moment, I was with
a group of people at like an anime club

thing, and we were all standing there.

It's the first time.

Shut up . And there was like
waves of nervous laughter

that went through the room.

Multiple waves of nervous
laughter we're like I definitely

had a moment of like, shit.

Did I like lose internet connection?

Right.

,
Jeremy: there's a lot
of those in this show.

Yeah.

there was a point where like,

Emily: there's a point elevator.

It's elevator.

Jeremy: It's, it's like episode three
where Shinji is trying to leave and he's

on the platform and like she has come
to stop him and he looks at her from

the platform and Alicia walked in and
watched TV for like 30 seconds and was

like, are you just watching a paused frame

Emily: I was like, no, it's style,

Jeremy: it's going still.

I don't, I guess they didn't have
any like fields of grain to pan

across in this one, like in every,

Emily: that was fucking
smart Dog fives Jeremy.

Yeah.

Let me tell you what vibe.

I talked about this when we
talked about Perfect Blue, is

they managed to stage this and
direct it like a live action show.

So you have these pans of these
atmospheric shots and things that

it's all very like set in the style.

they already have it set up so they
don't need to animate the shit out of

everything and it works pretty well.

You know, it's not as jarring
when they, they run out money.

I mean, at certain points.

Jeremy: Yes.

This fucking mumble
core robot show is just

Emily: what it is.

There's your one sentence
crumble core robot show.

Mumble.

Okay, so we have gotten to this point
of , the end part one coward was dead.

This is complicated cuz the last two
episodes of TV series are formatted

like a combination of group therapy
session combined with a PowerPoint

presentation on Psychology 1 0 1.

Yeah.

Animation is suggested I need,
I need to see the script.

I need would love to actual
teleplay for 24 and 25.

Fucking, like, I need to know was every
photo, was every specific like, train

photograph in the script or was it just
like, handwritten notebook pages of

psychology that the animators were then
like, fuck it, fuck it, we're done.

I'm done.

I'm not doing this.

That

Jeremy: like what's in this is
is was mostly annoying to me.

I was just ready to be done during this
last episode End of Evangelion where

they're like, Hey, fucking look at
the movie theater where an audience is

watching a movie that's fucking you.

You're looking at yourself like, right.

It's like, it's like, okay, fine.

.
Emily: Yeah, but what if we're allt?

We're all in the audience.

We are our own audience.

There is the self is composed to
self, the self that is observed

and the self that observes itself.

It's the quantum self.

Well, I love this show, but I'm
not gonna lie there sometimes.

And both endings, where I got some real
matrix revolutions, architect vibes,

. You kidding?

That's exactly what it is.

I mean, I found the last

Jeremy: two episodes of the
series itself to be annoying.

just like, no.

I

Emily: found the inclusion of the
high school universe to be the, like

one of the more creative uses, like
showing Shinji explicitly, A little

bit of nature versus nurture or just
like showing this world that could

have been almost like this absolution.

Like, no, look, if you hadn't grown
up in an utterly fucked world,

you wouldn't be so fucked up.

You're just trying your
best in a fucked up worldy.

It feels a little bit like
you want this, can't have it

And then shows up and it's like, Hey,
what if Shinji was a fucking shit bag?

Jeremy: In the spirit of
Bronwyn's naming of everything.

I think I told Emily after I finished
watching this last episode, I'm just

going to call this episode, Shinji yells
at coning . It was just him yelling at

like words that would appear on screen.

Yeah.

He'd be like, be like,
I don't wanna do it.

And the words would be like, don't you?

He'd be like, no,

Emily: the good drugs.

I'm just saying, I think
those aren't good drugs.

He's like, no.

He's like, but you can,
what is your enemy?

Enemy enemy, enemy, enemy.

Is it an angel enemy or is it your dad?

. Whoa.

So, therapy.

Therapy, therapy.

You're like, Asuka's like, I don't
have fucked out feelings about my mom.

Yeah, you do.

Yeah, you do.

Yeah, you do.

Yeah.

The Ava, the Ava fucking
like unborn, un birthed.

You had birthed you again.

Jesus Christ.

Literally.

Yeah.

Um, so the, the studio ran out of money.

They knew they were running outta money
and there was a bunch of shit that was,

that was cut from the original release.

And those, those elements are
present in the uh, Netflix edition.

Other editions are not, like, it
wasn't on the adult swim version.

But the series finale that was
released on TV was a victim of

multiple pro like muddy problems.

One, the studio was being audited.

, their accountant did
a bunch of shady shit.

And then also a bunch of the sponsors
started kind of pulling out because

they were like, this robot head
crushing thing is not the kind of thing

I thought I was gonna be sponsoring.

Yeah.

When this is the show that replaced
Fred Wolf's Teenage Ninja Turtles.

Yeah.

And just imagining like the
scene of Ava of unit one

devouring the, like Zo, I think.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like slowly devouring.

Well, everyone else just throws
up or watches and crying of horror

and then just cuts to a Japanese
commercial for KFC . Right?

I

Jeremy: mean, that's better than
if everything that's in end of,

and Gillian had been on TV and
you cut from Shinji masturbating

over's, unconscious corpse to a kfc.

Emily: Can I, can I tell a story

Jeremy: which you would,

Emily: so.

, the end of Evangelion came out
in a bunch of different versions.

There was Death and Rebirth, which is
also known as the revival of Evangelion.

uh, On Netflix's death.

True Squared or some shit.

Yeah.

And that was, this is getting into
Kingdom Hearts game level of Christ.

Oh my God.

Yeah.

We're Evangelion Chain of memories.

Um, . So they had,

Jeremy: the new scenes from that
first section are I guess some stuff

that was in the director's cut that
wasn't originally in what aired,

but then the four of them playing
instruments in a four part string chord.

Emily: Yeah.

That was all specifically for the death.

Some big ladies singing it, like
sniffing Aquaman sweater and

singing at him at the Snyder.

Cut Energy

.
Jeremy: Yeah.

Cause death True is on Netflix.

And then Evangelion is
on there separately.

And I guess what you were saying,
Emily, is originally they were released

as like Death True and then like the
first half hour of, end of Evangelion.

Yes.

Yes.

Emily: Which was called
Rebirth at the time.

Was it that the first half of Evan-
End of Evangelion was like supposed

to be episode 25, but then they
realized they wouldn't be able to

finish it or that it was like too much?

So they're like, screw it,
photographs and 2D drawings.

I'm pretty sure that End of Evangelion was
also affected by the reception of the TV

episode's 25 and 26, because wasn't there
a certain amount of what would become

in deve Alion already animated by the
time they did like the original 25 26?

I don't think so.

I think it was, it was laid out, but
I don't think it was already animated.

Okay.

Cause there was the um, directors cut
episodes that they had to cut all that

stuff because they, they ran outta money
to show what they were leading up to.

Like they, telegraphed a bunch of,
like the giant Rei in episode 23 where

Rei like is possessed, like in the
original version, which is what you see

in death, true Rei just like gets the
angel inner her and explodes herself.

But in the director's cut, like you see
the angel like come out of her Evangelion

start like forming out of her Evangelion,
like all the different angel forms.

And then the Ava itself becomes
her body and it's like a

giant her before she explodes.

And it's really fucking
crazy and awesome looking

But anyway, so the story I wanted to sell
is that, so there's Death and Rebirth and

there's End of Evangelion and I needed
to make sure that I had the right video.

So I went to World's best
comics in Sacramento run by the

legendary Dave Downey who inspired
such artists as Sam Kieth.

I don't think he was there that
day, but he also had a bunch of

like fan dubs and fans or fan subs.

Had a lot of fan dubs.

Yeah.

He had a whole bunch of fan,
fan subs available for rental.

So I was able to find End of
Evangelion with a fan sub.

Which was interesting because there
were some, some liberties taken

there because they didn't have it.

They, they were just translating
for what they could hear.

I needed to make sure what video
I was getting cause I wanted to

make sure I got the right one.

So the guy at this public comic shop
with the little tv over the cashier

was like, you just, we would just
check, just pop it right in there.

So it just popped it in
there and we're like, okay.

All right.

Okay.

It's openings okay to Right.

Studio ig.

Okay.

Whatever Production IG star child.

And then we saw the first scene, oh.

And my friend, whose name is now Ava

for reasons she was in there
with me and she was like, Ugh.

And she started hiding behind me and
I'm like, yeah, you could stop it.

Like there kid walking around . Yeah.

You're good.

I think we got it.

Yeah, we got it.

Okay.

Mommy, is that Yeah.

. Fuck me.

So, that's my story

Jeremy: about, I legit like,
watch this scene and like purged

it from my memory immediately.

Mm-hmm.

because like, I watched this, watched
the rest of Vivian and then I, or End of

Evangelion I was looking at like a recap
of end Evangelion and they were like,

and Shinji masturbates over i, his body.

And I was like, that
did happen, didn't it?

, I, I completely got rid
of that scene in my.

Emily: Yes, as you should,
as you definitely should.

You know what?

We have to acknowledge our
issues in order to get past them.

I mean, at least it wasn't Rei.

I mean, he did, there's a bit later
where they're like inter law anyway.

Oh God.

Okay, so back to the TV episodes
25 and 36 . I'm, I'm pretty sure

Jeremy: we're done with those

Emily: I just wanna, I just wanna
point out that these episodes a show

some of MISO's motivation that we
don't get anywhere else, and B the

teen comedy thing is what really makes
Ciy realize like, yeah, everything

sucks, but it doesn't have to suck.

I think it's more about
my mindset in this case.

Like, I could try to be happy,
you know, like I can change my

outlook and that everyone's like,
congratulations and that's it.

It but that's not, and, and then a bunch
of people sent on death threats because

they were like, what the fuck is this?

And Anna's like, all right, it's on

You want more show?

I'll give you more show.

That seems like, especially the
original ending even though it's a

happier ending, feels like it puts
a lot of stingy where it's like,

look, yeah, you have absolutely no
caretakers, no emotional support system.

Your only friends have suffered
grievously for things you blame yourself

for, and you're routinely thrown into
immense physical danger and horrible.

Emotional trauma, but if you just
had a better attitude about it.

Yeah.

Which is like bright side.

One of those good vibes only
kind of bullshit things.

Just be better bestie God.

Manifest yourself from your mother's
womb again, but happier this time.

Get it right, the world you make.

Come on, get it right.

Okay.

So this is the real End of
Evangelion real ending two 40

minute episodes as one feature film.

Some of it coincides
with the TV show ending.

Some of it doesn't.

Uh, We pick right up after Kaworus
death, Shinji ji's visiting Asuka

in the hospital tries to shake her
awake and ends up assaulting her by

masturbating over her conscious body.

You remember how everyone was mad at g?

Well, Sayle has now teamed up with the
UN and they're all, yes, it's G's fault.

They're gonna cause another apocalypse.

Get him.

So a bunch of soldiers infiltrate
nerve in a bloody takeover, start

killing everybody indiscriminately.

And still not sure what everyone's
different version of human

instrumentality was supposed to be.

Well, the instrumentality from the
first, from episode 25 and 26 is like,

nobody has any boundaries anymore.

So everybody has to deal
with their problems.

We find out about your problems
and motivations in like a group

therapy session essentially.

I

Jeremy: think Ben means like, there's
this whole like, oh, they're triggering

instrumentality, but I was gonna
trigger instrumentality different

and it was gonna be like this.

And yeah,

Emily: like Seal's got their
instrumentality, then Geno's got his

instrumentality and then Rei pulls
her own instrumentality at the end.

Well, Rei initially was supposed
to respond to Geno's Wish.

and then she's like, no, fuck you.

I'm gonna go to Shin's Wish
cuz you're a shit load a fuck.

Yeah.

Oh, Andy's, oh, so it was, oh, so that was
her responding to Shin's wish of, well,

if no one loves me, everyone should die.

Yeah.

Which is, I mean, she, she
did say, oh no, good bad job.

Shin . Yeah.

I mean, there, he's 14
and highly traumatized.

Oh, he so traumatized.

That ripped out like Ava, like
unit two, just like dis Baled

did some horrifying stuff.

Oh.

Oh my God.

I, that was like, I was so obsessed with
that, how fucked up that was . Yeah.

Jeremy: I mean, um, we should
talk about, like Asuka actually

gets an ending in this version.

Yes.

Which she does not in the show, which
is like, she gets pulled out, like

she wakes up she's shot back up into
the battlefield to, to fight people.

She realizes that her Ava is her
mom and then can actually work

with it and fucks up all of these
AVAs that they send after 'em.

Then it doesn't matter because
they just, they just get back

up after she No Power Lippy

Emily: mouth.

Fuck.

Oh yeah.

The fucking white Angel Demonn Ava series.

So yeah, Asuka's putting
mass produced ones.

Yeah, the mass production AVAs.

So Asuka, she's put in the AVA
because it's the safest place to be.

Right.

They shoot

Jeremy: her halfway up the tube
and they're like, get her now.

Motherfuckers.

Emily: Yeah.

They're, well they, they put
her at the bottom of the lake.

This is while, like while the
UN and everybody's attacking

nerve, g o is out, he's like,
I'm going to terminal dogma bite.

And so , So Macado has Asuka placed in the
unit two and she has to go find, Shinji

is wandering around being depressed,
and Macado has to save him, tries to

motivate him , to get in the robot
by essentially assaulting him with an

age inappropriate kiss, and then gives
him a cross necklace and says God by,

and then she explodes a fucking scene.

Yeah.

When you come back,

Jeremy: I'm gonna fuck you.

I was, I It was going so much better
in this version of the ending.

And then Soto get shot and she's
like, here, this is how adults kiss.

Ah.

And if when you come back
from fighting these fucking

Evangelions, then we'll do the rest.

And I was like, like, oh, no

Emily: better.

Like with my last dying act, I
sexually assaulted teenager God Messa.

Why?

No.

Especially because like he, if
Shinji was over 18, he is clearly

way, way, way too traumatized to
consent to anything right now.

Yeah.

God.

Yeah.

I mean, there's that kid's a baby.

That kid has not even hit puberty.

Like he, Ugh, barely.

Yeah.

And so I guess that's just a capstone
to the weird, toxic, psychosexual

relationship of being unable to
make either one feel anything but

worse around the other that Miss
Sato and Cji had the whole show.

Yeah, I have, I have
things to say about that.

We'll get to that.

so,

This is where we start
seeing the phantom Reis.

The phantom Reis show up,
whenever somebody dies.

Gdo heads down to Lilith
and encounters reco.

Reco tries to explode the entire nerve
complex, but the magic computer system

denies her program and she blames her
mom's personality written into the program

. And she's like, mom, it's cuz you were
banging gdo, that you explode Kendo.

And the Magi are like,
well this, I mean, sure.

I mean, I don't know.

Your

Jeremy: mom, just a woman that denies her.

Emily: Yeah.

Cause the, the Look the mom and the
scientist are all about exploding

themselves, but the one who's
horny for just the worst man ever.

Jeremy: The ho bag.

It's part of

Emily: it.

like people who are really into men,
what is with the, Utter Dirtbag Gremlin

appeal, why is Mastermind Davidson what,
like all this multi-generation family

of scientists into, okay, I don't know.

I'm gonna go with the patriarchy.

and generational negging.

Yeah.

Generational negging.

Just generational Negging is get though
just a one man generational trauma.

Yes.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yes, absolutely.

We find that out in exposition episode.

So, yeah, UMO.

Has the fetus, the
jelly fetus in his hand.

He has Adam in his hand and he
puts it in to Rei through her boob.

And it's really upsetting.

It's bad.

Rei's arm falls off, but then
it's okay because she takes

Geno's hand to replace hers.

And Rei's like Buck you asshole.

I'm not your doll.

And, uh, She floats up to the crucified
Lilith uh, which is a true body all

along, and she is welcomed home.

Now we have Asuka.

She is wrecking shit.

She is fucking up the entire un military.

And then the Ava series, the
production model AVAs with

their cow brand dummy plugs.

Are we gonna unpack that?

No.

Um, with their real ass angel wings
and their swords that turn into

Lances of Longness come down, she
still kicks the shit out of them

and then it start regenerating
and uh, it's not fucking fair.

Okay.

What I

Jeremy: love about this shit is how
badass Asuka is because everybody's

like, Asuka, they shout out your plug,
like you've only got five minutes left,

you've gotta get outta there or something.

And she's like, you mean
I've only got five minutes to

kill all these motherfuckers?

Yeah, let's do it.

There

Emily: is with me.

It's on.

That is what TV tropes call
a crowning moment of Awesome.

That was an amazing moment.

Just seeing her go ham fucking
wild on like nine AVAs at

Jeremy: once.

She said, beating AVAs
to death with other AVAs.

It's just, it's fantastic.

It is,

Emily: yeah.

Utterly ineffective in the
end, but glorious while it.

Yeah.

And she still goes out like the second,
right down to the splitting of her breast.

uh, they had to like, She's like,
fuck you up, I'll fuck you up.

And she's like, there and she's got
her hand out and her Ava unit is all

like fucked up and eviscerated the guts
everywhere and it eyeballs hanging out.

But it was still about to go berserk.

It was about to go berserk
the way unit one does.

And then more spears came,
did not like the splitting.

Oh yeah.

This is how her arms split in half.

Yeah.

To me it was really when they, the
flying's came down, each grabbed an

inch trail and then like flew back up.

Oh yeah.

And they're like eating it.

It's really gross.

To describe these things if you
haven't seen them, they look like

Evangelion units with wings, but
instead of heads, they have like these

weird, like whale heads with no eyes.

So they're just beste, youy lips, What's
funny is that the figurine of these Ava

production model, whatever these Ava units
shows up as a plot point in the film.

24 hour photo with Robin Williams.

Oh my God.

Oh, I reme, yeah.

Anyway Shinji is like listening
to ask, getting like, destroyed

by these AVAs and Shin.

She's like, fuck, and then he's like

Jeremy: unclear.

Like it seems like they're saying
that his, the unit one is like

trapped inside this goo that's
frozen or hardened or something.

And

Emily: so it's, it's hard to
bake Aite, which they've used

multiple times to like, it's one
of their like stopping mechanisms.

They used it on, Unit Zero
when it was going nuts.

They flooded systems with bake
light in order to keep the soldiers

from coming in various places.

So they f fused unit one with
Baker Light to make sure that

it can't be taken by the un.

But um, Hui, he gets down

Jeremy: there and he is like,
well, I guess I can't get in it.

Oops.

Emily: Yeah.

And then Huey's like, no, fuck that.

I could still move my arm.

And he's like, oh, it's you mom.

, guess I gotta go.

So he goes and he gets out there
and he sees it like Asuka's

Ave has been produced to jts.

So he goes full ape shit
and demonic is floaty.

And then all the white demo AVAs like
stigma to him with their special Lances

and um, everybody else in the UN at Nerv
and they're like, well, I guess it's over

. We tried to avert the apocalypse guys.

We didn't , sorry.

Yeah, . Not bad . uh, you're making weird

Jeremy: fireworks in the sky now.

One's

Emily: like, I'm gonna, yeah.

They, they all become like a, like
a zeer off and they're like, well,

that's how that works, I guess.

And everything explodes and then a giant
Rei comes up and starts like trying

to talk to the Shinji, big mo Hank pi
size, like size of planet sized red.

Yeah.

Well, she's, she is Colossus like, extra
Colossus, like maybe she's like five

AVAs at a certain point, and then she
becomes like a size of a hemisphere.

The scene when her arms just
sliding off her bone, it just

still gives me like, ugh.

Oh yeah.

She's like all gelatinous.

No.

Oh, important plot point.

The at fields, which are really,
really powerful, coming from the

angels and the AVAs, that's just
the shit that makes us individuals.

Y'all.

Ah, that's, that's what keeps,
that's what guards your heart.

It's your, that guards your heart.

Ego.

It's your heart guard.

or it's your mom protecting you.

Mm-hmm.

So the spectral Rei the semi
spectral Rei is really fucking scary.

And Shay's like no.

And is just screaming this whole time.

This is like a whole 10 minutes of
just gingy screaming at shit happens.

How?

I was doing really bad for
that voice actor cause, right?

Oh, she has a fucking bad, my
favorite part of that, though.

That's hard.

That's hard to do.

Gingy sees Giant Rei starts
screaming his like, bloody murder.

But then Giant Kaworu
shows up and comes down.

It's like, oh, hi.

Oh, it's Kaworu.

Oh, sweet Ka, you're not dead.

And then Kaworus like, let's
decide the fate of the world.

What could possibly go wrong?

So now we see into shin.

She's deep past his frustration and
tendency to destroy things from pyramid,

from sand pyramids to relationships.

Turns out he tried to strangle Asuka
back when she, and she rejected him

back in episode 24, revealing this as
part of her reason for going catatonic.

That's not great.

Shin she wishes for destruction
and sale is like, oh, yay.

He did the thing that we wanted.

And all of humanity is reduced to
a single being a sea of life where

all thoughts and feelings are uh,
shared and no person is alone.

We get a cool song about death.

Rei appears that every moment a
person is reduced to this life juice.

Once everybody is tanked, Shinji
thinks about life, universe and

everything, and admits meta montages
of people in places life and death.

Shinji is like, actually I liked
it better when people were around

Also, this me fusing with the
Lilith mother figure of mine.

Like, I'm basically like, there's this
weird imagery where I'm banging my mom.

It's the medicus shit.

I don't like that.

It's not negative to you.

I don't like that.

I don't that at all.

So for better, for Shinji tries again.

The re abides and a unit two with newi
soul in it forever orbits the earth.

and when the sun, the moon, and the
Earth no longer exists, Ava will still

be there proving that um, humanity
once was for better, for worse.

and uh, The white demo and Ava series
uh, now inert and headless stand as

EFS in the surf as a huge semi collapse
Rei head looms on the horizon of the

life sea where Shing you manifests
once again, Shinji and Asuka awakening

the sand in the surf of the red.

The first thing Shinji does after
apparently kneeling up MISO's crossed

necklace as a uh, grave marker
is try to strangle Asuka again.

Now, the weird thing here is
that Asuka has mis massages

brown eyes and raised bandages.

So there's a theory that she's
all three of them at once.

That's a bit weird.

Mm-hmm.

. But that's okay because when uh, Shinji
stops before killing Asuka, fortunately

when she pats his face and he starts
crying and then she speaks the final line

of the series, completely applicable.

Kimochi warui, which translates
roughly as, dude, you're gross . Yes.

And that's the end for reals except
for the rebuilds, which are everything

again, but with more bullshit and
less atmosphere for the animation is

really good and ends happier also.

Coward gets more screen Time the end.

Okay.

Bye.

Oh, Spiderman Aian version.

So, we have a few moments to
talk about the progressive policy.

No.

Does Aon Gillian deal with themes

Yeah.

So real quick just to give
a little bit of context.

That this series that is incredibly
cerebral, which is giant robots in the,

in the style of 2001 Space Odyssey,
is as merchandised as Star Wars.

And that's fucking weird to me.

But it's also kind of amazing.

And of course they're not focusing
on like the cerebral portion.

They're like, what if Asuka
also was a soap folder?

And this is kind of how
they got the money back.

For that.

Never fucking hold you soap.

Right?

I know, right?

. Like there's all Yeah.

There's just figurines and
shit and there's like, I crush.

That just continues the theme of Asuka
being done dirty for this whole thing.

Yes.

Oh, oh, for sure.

Seriously.

Way better.

At the end of this, you wake up on
the side of the Red Sea of Tang.

That's all of the people you've
ever known in your whole life.

And the only other person who's
manifested is the only guy who's

consistently assaulted you.

Yes.

And he's assaulting you a gap.

Yes.

Chemo chi, my dudes.

You gross.

Yeah.

At least you get the last line.

And it's an insult.

I mean, like, honestly, one of
the themes of this show is very

much dudes are gross . Yes.

With the exception of
Cal, who's not a human.

Yeah.

And he's not good.

He's just not gross.

Yeah.

I mean he's, there's a story about how
Cal's whole character is based off of

the creator of Sailor Moon KHA, at least
the scene where Shinji and Cow were in

the bath together because there's this
story about how On was talking about

life, the universe and everything with
Ikuhara and Ikuhara has been like,

okay, well I've been through some shit
and you know, this is what I did and

I respect that you've survived that.

So , that is a bit of, that's a nice
little tidbit, but I think that it's

important to address what the show
says without any of that context.

And that's one of the reasons
that I wanted you all to be here.

Because I am outside.

I am so 500% synchronized in this show.

You're about to become Tang.

I'm about to become Tang, and I
need you to remind me that I'm human

and I need to be un, un unborn.

From Aian, don't go into the Red Sea.

I will not remember your boundaries, but
I do wanna mention that there is, this

show is a good example of the terrible
chagrin of the satire being mistaken

for that, which is satirizes because
it is not clear enough about its satire

tries to have its cake and eat to Mm.

The show was initially intended to
be a subversion of tropes when a lot

of it, and especially in the rebuilds
where it goes back to those tropes.

As somebody who was struggling with
asexuality when I was uh, you know,

trying to, to accept myself as asexual
while I was watching it, there is a

certain element of this series that I
feel a lot of relatability to Shinji

where the sexuality of his character
is so like, he's, he is almost

forced to, to be something mm-hmm.

as he's also forced to do something,
which is to, you know, save humanity in a.

It's also his mom . And of course
the Freudian shit goes way deep.

And Freud is not valid, like Freud is,
basically like do cocaine for the ghosts

in your blood version of psychology.

But gave us some of the terms.

What drugs should we take to placate
the ghost in our blood cocaine?

you said a good question, , I
mean, cocaine works for a minute

for the symptom, not the cause.

Well, that, because I live my
life a quarter mile at a time.

Yes.

All right.

But yeah, so I'm opening up the floor
now because Brownwood especially,

I wanna hear what you have to say.

Bronwyn: Oh my God.

uh, This show.

This show.

I mean, I love it.

I love it.

But it, Jamie, I think it was,
you said it best when this is like

peak, your favorite is problematic.

. Mm-hmm.

, because , like, there's a lot of value
here and oh my God, it's beautiful, it's

gorgeous, and it does, it is cerebral.

It does make you think,
which is really interesting.

And it, it, it's very entertaining and it,
it's one of those things, it's like the

water cooler show, but for nerds, right?

Like , what's the water cooler show?

It's the one discussed around
water and a water cooler.

Oh, I thought you were
talking about a specific show.

Now I know exactly what
you're talking about.

It's been a while since I've worked
anywhere with a lot water cooler.

Yeah, fair enough.

I mean,

But that phrase definitely works
better prior to the 2020s . Still

the sentiment is there.

Emily: Um,

Bronwyn: Yes.

. I just feel like the more I watch
this show, the more I get out of it

and the more interesting I find it.

But I, the more I watch it, the more
uncomfortable I am watching it as well.

Mm-hmm.

. Yeah.

So it's an interesting dichotomy and
I think that some of that, as you say,

is on purpose, but it was like, it was
trying to be that satire, like you'd

said, and didn't quite make it there.

And as a result, you can see the
effort and you can see the intent, but

because it doesn't quite make it, it
does leave you with that sense of, Ugh.

Yeah.

Jeremy: It's, it's like they know
what's bad, but they don't know why.

I don't, I don't wanna interrupt you if
you have more to say Bron, but, but I

haves, I don't wanna go off on rant here.

Um.

They're like, man,

Ben: isn't it weird how these people
like sexualize these like new bio naked

14 year olds we parade over the screen.

So weird of them.

For people to sexualize them.

Anyway.

Please buy all of our merchandise
of them in bathing suits.

Right?

Yeah.

Jeremy: Yeah.

I, so, I have a, a bit of a rant
that I, I built up cause I had to

write everything down cause I was
like, I don't wanna forget that.

I wanna say this stuff.

. So here's my, here's at
least some of my rant.

Obviously the repeated and
ridiculous handling of nudity

and teenage girls is bad.

In a world where you have an
increasing number of stories that

are told from a female point of
view about girls being horny.

It especially stands out that this
story has very little concern about

female sexuality and or interiority and
way more concerned about sexualizing

teenage girls and women in general.

I have generally less problem
with sexualizing kasra because

if anything, Kasra is kind of
the second hero of the series.

Mm-hmm.

. Cause she has a lot of storylines
that don't really intersect with

the other kid, with the kids.

And we do view a lot of things
through her eyes and she is an

adult woman that has some actual
depth and is kind of a fucking mess.

But that really doesn't ex explain
away things like the camera angles that

they choose to show her and, and other
women at where it's like not shooting

their face, but instead they're boobs
or ass as they're talking in the scene.

Perhaps the absolute worst culmination of
all of this is the elevator scene at the

end of, or in, in End of Evangelion where
she convinces Shinji to go pilot Neva by

promising to fuck him when he comes back.

And then French kissing him before saying
that's how grownups kiss will do the rest

when you come back, which basically turned
me against the entire movie, which I was

more or less giving you until that point.

It's, um,

Emily: I mean, it makes sense for her
character who is just so blatantly

desperately like all these characters
seeking out affection and purpose

and she specifically seeks it out
in inappropriate sexual contact.

But it's still just, just because
we understand where her character's

coming from doesn't make it any
less sexual assault on a minor.

Jeremy: Yeah, it's, yeah,
very bad and very weird.

uh, So at one point I wasn't
exactly sure what it was about the

personifications of women in the
show that was not GoIT Landing for.

And I stumbled on this bit of an interview
with uh, Yoshi Yuki Sa uh, who was the,

you know, the lead character designer who
explained that the that he first designed

an Asuka type girl as the lead character,
and they, but they felt it might be

too similar to the other, an anime that
they'd done like Gun Buster and Nadia.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, So they suggested, he suggested
to AO that they changed lead character

to a boy uh, which would be more
in keeping with the robot genre.

In the initial project, she was described
as a determined girl who adapts to

the situation which she finds herself.

Uh, She's passionate about video games
and aspires to become like Kaji In the

19th episode, she would've been seriously
injured in attempt to protect Shinji, who

would've thus proved his worth trying to
save her, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

uh, Sao and Andrew designed the
Serious Auto came to believe that

ASCA could occupy the position
of idol in the Ava world.

ASCA would have represented Ji's
desire for the female sex, as opposed

to Rei who is supposed to represent
motherhood to him in this story.

Uh, Mm-hmm.

would have been the idol of ne Neogenesis,
Evangelion, which arguably she is.

Uh, If you look at the merchandising,
oh my God, he also describes his

belief that the relationship between
as and Shinji would be similar to

the relationship between, I'm pretty
sure Jean Jean and Nadia in Nadia.

Emily: Yes, pretty sure for
Shinji uh, cow is the iola of Ava.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

And like, what really gets me about
this stuff and the, like, the nudity

and the dehumanization of, of female
characters is part and parcel with this.

All of the women in the show
are defined by Shinji and

their relationship with Shinji.

Both endings of the original series
Make This Plane in a way that was out

and out hard to stomach for me, like,
especially in the original show ending

where they're like talking him through his
personality problems as elements of him.

Which like that whole thing.

I was like, oh, like these characters
aren't important except in as

the how they relate to Shinji.

Which really, which really turned me
against a lot of the stuff I'd watch.

To that point, which is my explanation for
the thing I said to JB and Emily, which

they flipped out about when I said to
them, uh, in watching the rebuilds Mari

is one of my favorite parts of this show.

she does not appear in the show at all.

She's just in the rebuilds.

And she was literally like created
because strong emotions were had in

Emily: the chat,

.
Jeremy: Cause the producers were like, we
need to have a new character in the show.

and literally a and Sao were like
uh, yeah, we don't know what to

do with this because like all
these other female characters are

just parts of JI'S personality.

So they just sort of like left
her design to these other folks.

And like, she's very much not directly
part of Shinji story, but sort of

intersects with it in a way that in
the second movie doesn't make sense.

She just, no, it doesn't, yeah, she
just falls into the show, but like, it

Emily: literally is dropped,
like air dropped into this story.

Jeremy: Yeah.

By the time she shows up in three and
four, like she has what feels like

a relationship with Asuka, which is
not apparently what they were after.

But like, you know, she has like
her own artist personality and

their own stuff going on that has
nothing to do with Shinji because.

It's the really weird way that those
shows that the movies deviate from the

show is there's a fucking 12 year time
gap between the second and third movie.

Emily: Amazing.

Fucking, I cannot handle that shit.

Like, I was like, I love it.

I love it.

Jeremy: I was already be excited
about it until like Asuka showed up

and she was like, no, I still look
14 because the AVAs make us continue

to look 14 for the rest of our lives.

And then they just start
showing her naked again.

I was like, you had a chance

Yeah.

To make her a full grown woman.

Yeah, yeah.

And not just do this weird same pervy
shit, which is , the thing that does write

me mad about those movies that it reminds
me of the new 52 when the new 52 came out.

Oh, yeah.

Oh boy.

Yeah.

And like there were all these things that
I was like, you had a chance to fix that.

Like, there are things that I would fix
if I were like, remaking the history

of Evangelion or comics and like in
Evangelion, it's taking out a lot of

the weird nudity and uh, in comics it
would be getting rid of the fact that,

I don't know, Batman has had six robins.

You know, I, I'm like,
oh, don't you touch that

Emily: Bat fam Todd

Jeremy: You know, if you've gotta simplify
things, you get rid of Jason Todd, you

get rid of the characters that have back
stories that take two years to explain.

Ugh.

And yeah, this was just

,
Emily: that was fighting

Jeremy: more scare.

The high and low points for me with
this, with the like rebuilds is they

had some stuff that worked for me, but
then they made the same mistakes again.

That really, really drove me nuts.

Like,

Emily: it's like the old saying,
if at first you don't succeed Yeah.

Just fuck up the same way again.

It's what I ever, right.

You don't need to learn a new thing.

Like, I think for me, it felt like,
and I think Emily touched on this

a little bit and it, it felt like.

Somebody who very poorly understands and
didn't bother to try and read any of the

history of, or the context for Freud Hmm.

Applied that extremely limited knowledge
as a matrix for this entire show.

Like, okay, so we have Freud, we have ego,
we have iid, we have this, we have that.

So we have these different
portions of a personality.

So we're gonna make this character
this portion of this personality,

and we're gonna make this character
this portion of this personality,

and we're gonna make everybody
kind of horny, but afraid of sex.

And it's gonna be really like, you
know, sex is bad but everybody wants it.

And then we'll focus on the nudity.

And like Freud would be totally
on board for this, but it's cuz he

fucked up piece of shit who didn't
know what he was talking about.

. Yeah.

Yeah.

Like maybe do a little bit more research

.
Jeremy: Yeah.

I, I think like that for me, that is
where the story lost me all three times.

is anytime they get into the human
instrumentality project and it's

like, it turns into Psych 1 0 1.

Yeah.

And it's like badly, oh God.

Like somebody who just again,

Emily: didn't pass or
barely passed Psych 1 0

Jeremy: 1.

And the, the one thing that I like about
End of Evangelion and in the rebuilds that

they do is that in both cases, Geno misses
out on the Human Instrumentality project.

Mm-hmm.

. And it's because he shut a shitty father,
like literally in End of Evangelion.

And you know, Rei is like, no, you suck.

Shinji is the one that should, you know,
make this choice in the, in the rebuilds.

It's even plainer because like,
literally, she's like actually.

You have been talking about how much you
miss your wife this whole time, but you

had a piece of her still in your son.

Mm-hmm.

. And you fucked that up.

Like fucked it up.

Yeah.

Emily: And literally
abandons him at the end.

She's like, yeah, no, goodbye.

Yeah.

You're the worst.

No human instrumentality for you.

. Yeah.

And that's deny you don't get to turn
into tan cuz you were too shitty and dead.

Only good dads become Tang.

Exactly.

Nobody wants you in
the human pool of tang.

Yeah.

Nobody wants to share their
thoughts and dreams with gdo.

No.

Yeah.

All souls have emerged
into one except for gdo.

Cuz he sucks.

Cause he is a soulless monster.

For real.

Yeah, for real.

the psych 1 0 1 stuff, there's
some interesting stuff there.

The episodes where it just becomes
that, or it's like, the End of

Evangelion or the, bits where
it's like, where's your reality?

It's the end of your dream
I mean, it gets repetitive.

There are some cool things that they say.

I think the shit where they, they have
like the personality of somebody mapped

on a grid, I just think is hilarious.

. Yeah.

. at a certain point it's just arbitrary
names from like terms that Freud

originally came up with to refer to
uh, parts of the human, soul, I guess

like the human motivation I should say.

The terms have been appropriated
to a point where like,

libido is your urge to live.

And dis judo is your urge
to, to self-destruct.

And there's a lot of weird disconnect
with English terminology, in the

show and, and some of the naming
conventions, with the all, like the

Christian symbolism, it feels to me like
they're just naming shit after stuff.

You know?

It's like an arbitrary thing.

Cause like they have a
hundred percent mm-hmm.

. Yeah.

Yeah.

But, and like canonically in the show,
they're just like, okay, so these are the,

these are things that are happening, but
this is, this is all we have to name it.

So we're just like, nicknaming
it after these angels.

Jeremy: Yeah.

I think that kinda came up for me as we
were talking about this online in the

last couple weeks, we had some folks
weigh in with like, oh yeah, there's

a lot of antisemitic stuff in Evange.

And, like the explanation for that is that
there's a lot of stuff that's taken from

the like idea that there are, you know,
Jewish conspiracies, you know, running the

world, which is essentially what ZLA is.

Yeah.

But like a lot of that I think is,
again, confusion on the part of the

people creating it, that they're like,
oh no, we're, it's not a Jewish cult.

It's just a cult of people that are.

Trying to end the world.

Like they're not a robot.

Emily: German man.

Yeah.

Look, I the official Jew
declare it not antisemitic.

official J Thank you.

Appreciate you.

I

Jeremy: think, I think the clearest
way to clear that up is to like

look at some of the other things
that are named at the show.

I feel like I could do an entire five
minute set on the fact that AKA's mom,

who is half German and half Japanese
is named Kyoko Zeppelin saw to you.

Emily: Yes.

Yeah.

Jeremy: Middle name is Zeppelin.

It's the funniest shit to me.

It's like that comes up in the stuff
where they're talking about killing

herself and I've like, I couldn't stop
laughing over the cause it's revealed

that her middle name is Zeppelin.

Zeppelin.

Emily: Hey, come on.

I mean, if you could, you would Right?

all middle names would just be over
the top signifiers of your country.

, I guess I'd be nap or something.

I mean, that's not bad.

Yeah, right.

I mean, that's not bad.

Better than Zeppelin.

I I wanna talk hockey

Oh my god, I'm totally adopting that.

Oh my God.

It's glorious Hockey.

Yeah, hockey Maple.

Moose Hockey.

Moose hockey.

Oh, Boyer.

Jeremy: Osakis name is Mirror Blimp.

Emily: Yeah, there's also, with
Rei, there's a lot of, if you look

up things about Moe, oh, it's bad.

Yeah.

Which is basically.

The fetishization of
submissive young girls.

Hector.

Yeah.

And

Jeremy: unless she talk shit about
your dad, then she's gonna slap you

.
Emily: Exactly.

Yeah.

Well, and that's completely missing
the point that she has been abused,

groomed, assaulted and she also
and just replaced whenever she's,

cause she's fucking disposable.

Yeah.

Yeah.

She's, she is literally disposable
and struggles with that.

Yeah.

Um, And she is also struggling to
be human cuz she's essentially like,

not like she comes, she is alien.

there's a lot of things that I think
people, especially queer people

have you know, have identified
with her as well as with Kaworu.

Oh yeah.

I don't wanna call it an ideal.

Definitely not , I don't wanna call it
a representation because that is also

debatable because of like the barrier,
gays trope and all that kind of stuff.

But I know that Kaworu also was
an awakening for a lot of people.

And Rei's struggle to
relate to normal people.

And Shaji struggle and also in a
way that Ava, you know, one herself

have all been points of identity.

For queer people who are
struggling with that.

I will say that I worked on a zine and
illustrated a poem that a, a woman wrote

about her transition that was about the
awakening of a unit one, using that scene.

Oh.

Where Unit one devours the angel.

Mm-hmm.

. It talks about you know, the closeted
woman and the, awakened woman and all

this, really profound expression about
the struggle and the frustration of

trying to become who you are really.

And I found that to be
in incredibly profound.

And even in its violence because, we
have to understand that it's not, always

like, it gets better.com, you know?

Right.

Like there's a very upsetting
and violent part to that for

people, for a lot of people.

Mm-hmm.

. It doesn't have to be that, but
it really is for a lot of people.

So, it's unfortunate that a lot
of that becomes just fetishized

especially where Rei is concerned.

Mm-hmm.

. And I think part of that is due
to tone deafness on the creators.

You know, there are a lot of intense
to create strong women in this series.

But they all suffer
profoundly from these tropes.

Jamie: It, it does kind of feel.

Anime before Ava was one thing.

Yes.

Then anime after Ava took all of the
superficial bits of Evangel, Gillian,

and then like, just went nuts.

Like, and, and went to the extreme.

Like there's a, there's a show Kill
A Kill, which was wildly popular

when it came out, and it features
a mother fingering her daughter.

It's awful.

And like, yeah, it like, it definitely
feels like all of those things, like

the moi you were talking about mm-hmm.

and just like character design has
been, has been taken to like different

levels since Ava and you can all
trace all of the stuff back to it.

And it just, it feels like what they were,
they may have been trying to do something

different with a Evangel Gallian, but
the result has been just, I don't know.

It's hard to, it's hard
to watch anime sometimes.

Yes.

It's hard to watch anime sometimes.

It is.

Extremely, yeah.

And that's the point where we get how
Miyazaki saying that anime was mistake.

There's a, there's a climbing anime, which
is actually pretty decent in terms of like

climbing technique and this is how you
train and this is a heel hook and this

is how you look at a root every single
episode as shot as shot, tit shot, tit

shot, like tit hooks on the thing, and
then like going over and sure, you see

a lot of butts in climbing, but that's
not what, like, that's not the thing.

Yeah.

And, and you know, I, I can't recommend
it to my climbing friends cause

it's just like, it's super pervy.

Yeah.

Bronwyn: Yeah.

And like, that's the, the problem
is too, is, is that then you

end up with this concept that
admiring people sexually is pervy.

And that's, it's not true.

Like, drives me crazy that you
have that, that's the thing, right?

Like that when you have this
fetishization, when you have the way the.

This is shot and the way, and I say shot
as if it's not animated and drawn and

whatever, but yeah, well shot shot is,
is valid because it is set up that way.

The motherfucker storyboarded it that way.

as coon goes right here.

Yeah, because, and it's not like you
can't ever have a picture of somebody's

ass and have it be tasteful and have
it be beautiful and have it be artistic

and have it be all of those things.

You absolutely can.

It happens on the regular.

Yeah.

It's, but that is not
what is happening here.

Not the least of which, because
these characters are underage, which

is horrifying for any number of
reasons, not the least of which is the

sexualization of them, but also all of
the trauma, all of the pressure, all

of the poor communication, all of the,
you know, lack of emotional support

system that Ben mentioned earlier.

Like all, like just, wow, this whole
environment is toxic for these.

And I think that's, that's part of
the communication process, right?

Like that's part of the learning
arc of this is, is the, the

toxicity of this environment.

And, but again, like we said,
instead of going into the satire,

it went into the, the fetish
side, which that was the effect.

Yeah.

That, yes, definitely.

Sorry, that's what I meant.

Yes.

It's a more, that is a better,
more clear communication.

Thank

Jeremy: you.

The thing to me is I think there's
a difference between characters

who are sexual or do things that
are sexual and the creator, writer,

animator, sexualizing a character.

This is very clear to me with, you
know, with all the girls in this, but

especially like, I think Macado is.

An interesting one because like, I have no
problem with Messa being sexual or being

horny, or being a drunk, or being exactly
crazy and passing out all over the place.

Like these are all things that are
personality for her and like are

explained through her trauma, through
her relationships, things like that.

Things that make sense for her.

And I, I think she's an interesting
and complex character, but

nothing about her character
makes them draw her from the ass.

Like, it's one thing to have,
like Shinji look at her or fucking

suha look at her and, and be like,
attracted to her because she's sexy.

Like, and to show it
from their point of view.

Mm-hmm.

But like, there's a weird scene where
like, they're at the dinner table and

she has leaned over the dinner table
and they're boobs shooting her boobs.

Yeah.

And then they turn to the other side
and they're just shooting her ass.

And like that's not from anybody's
point of view, it's just them choosing

to animate her ass and make her
an object rather than a character.

Emily: Well, I feel like that
that particular scene that you're

talking about is kind of from Shin's
perspective, because he is sort

of overwhelmed by the situation.

I'm not saying that this is, it's a
good decision, but it felt like in that

particular scene it was part of the like,

Jeremy: but you also get things
from the other side of the room

where Shinji is not like mm-hmm.

you know, and, and I, I think like that
makes sense to some extent to be like, oh,

if, if you are 14 year old Shinji and this
you know, attractive woman who doesn't

wear much in the way of clothes and like,
you know, is, has just moved you into

her house, you're gonna be like boobs.

But also at, at the point that you
move away from JI'S perspective.

Then that's just the animator
going boos, . Which is not like,

is really showing your hand.

Cuz I, I think, you know, this has been
compared to Joss Whedon at one point in

this conversation, and I think that's a
really valid comparison because like, you

can choose to frame a shot through Wonder
Woman's legs for no particular reason.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And that's the same thing but with a real
woman, which is even more horrifying.

But I, I think, you know, in either
case, like sexualizing a character

is completely different than
having a character who is sexual.

Emily: Yes, yes.

A percent, yes.

We've, we've talked about now I, I
feel that also we do have some attempts

at, at make the female characters
fully realize, but it kind of falls

short because of the sexualization.

There's not really much of
the way of social justice.

the, uh, You know, in terms of race,
there's not really any discussion of race.

The movies do have characters of
color, but they do not do shit.

If they, if when they do a live action
version and cast all white people

in it, this is gonna be one of those
weird situations where it's like, I

guess, well, the, because they have
Asian names, but like, besides Shinji

and Masato and maybe Rei, everyone
else's ethnicity could be whatever.

I don't know.

I've often thought about this, like,
coming from the Asian perspective,

it's like there's not a lot of Asian
people in anime , like attack on Titan.

It should all be Lilly ass white
people, except for those two Asian.

Or like full metal alchemists or
full metal alchemists and you know,

so it's like, it's this weird thing.

Like I get upset when, you know,
they whitewash characters that who

are Asian in, in Western movies,
but like mm-hmm for this one.

I'd be like, I, I don't know.

I don't know if that's a
fight I give a shit about.

Cause it's fair bad.

It's be bad.

This is why I say you, if they're gonna
do a love action, a Evangelion thing,

it should be a totally separate thing.

It should be about the
American nerve, about American

pilots doing American things.

And it should not try to be
a retelling of the story cuz

we've done it too many times.

However, I think that's a great idea.

Dave Johnson, a from Kevin Smith's
dogma is that all of the angels should

be voiced by Ben Aflac, but it's
just him going, oh yes sorry, sorry.

I didn't mean to He's just making noise.

He's just making rally.

It's just Ben af like making rally noises.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Yeah.

This is what a Boston ass angel, you know,

.
Emily: So we have we've
talked about trauma.

Yeah.

Like them apples again, those

We have a situ, we have kind of a
class situation because we have the

Illuminati and we have the various
like, you know, levels of corruption

that occur that, you know, with all
the secrets, secrets, but discussion

Jeremy: in any real meaningful way.

As, as with the sexuality side of things.

It, it is there but not discussed
or held in any sort of meaningful

Emily: way.

I would argue that there is a
discussion of, of sexuality here,

but it really takes some reaching.

You know, and it also depends on
your point of view because there's

a lot of people that can come at
it with a particular point of view.

And, and it's very unique to the person.

Yeah.

But it requires a certain
amount of understanding of like,

there's some problematic tropes.

and you really need to be aware of that.

You know, I would not show this to
a person who is like 14 and just

trying to, to figure shit out.

So I'm gonna, I'm gonna just
go right into, do you think

this, this is worth seeing?

I mean, it's a foundational end of May.

Yeah.

I think you have to go into
it with critical thought.

Yes, absolutely.

You have to go into it aware that it's
going to require critical thought.

You have to go into it aware that
this is gonna be problematic,

but there are definitely things
that are worth seeing in this.

Absolutely.

I mean, like, it's different,
but I do not want to a degree.

It's like, you know,
it's place inane history.

It's kinda like, hey, is this
isn't a one to one example?

Like, is snow white worth watching?

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

And also, I mean, compared to a lot of
anime that is really, really popular

with kids, this is not as like, like if
you think about the kind of shit that

goes on in like Sword Art Online or
Attack on Titan with the Antisemitism's

really there as an attack on Titan or
like, you know, berserk not for kids.

No . Yeah.

But it's still, you know,
you still gotta watch out.

You ought look.

Jeremy: Yeah, I think there's
definitely stuff in here worth seeing.

I, I mean, I think you can probably
skip the original ending and just

go straight to End of Evangelion and
there's stuff I like about the rebuilds,

but they're, they're not necessary.

Watch and, you know, we can
talk about that elsewhere.

So,

Emily: recommendations.

Yeah.

Oh yes.

Iron Widow read it immediately.

So frigging good.

Yes.

And it is like, it's got all the good
parts of Evangel Gallian, but it's

queer af and it's so angry and it's so
fabulous and like it's still, got some

parts that are like difficult to process
as you're going through, but, oh my God.

Iron Widow.

There we go.

Jeremy's got it.

It's, I cannot, with
how good this book is.

It's insane.

So immediately anyone who hasn't
go out and read it, deep Talks.

It is gorgeous book.

I've heard very

Jeremy: good things.

Oh, it's so good.

And Jamie, what do you have to recommend?

Jamie: So this is difficult, but the
Toku Satsu genre in general, because

ano is heavily influenced by it.

The way the AVAs move, the way they fight,
especially in the, the rebuilds is based

on man in suit punching other man in suit.

A couple of good things that
are easily easy to find.

Suba has an official Ultraman
YouTube channel where they broadcast

their current Ultraman series,
translated in English with subtitles.

The current series is Ultraman Decker.

So every Friday there's a new
half hour episode of Ultraman.

You could watch it with your kids.

I watched it with Hazel.

She loved it.

Awesome.

So it's easy to find.

Super Centi shows are coming out.

, you know them as Power Rangers.

Power Rangers is still going on.

Netflix has a whole
bunch of Power Rangers.

I think Shout Factory is releasing
box sets of the original.

And then Common Writer.

Common Writer is my favorite series.

There's a Toku Shasu channel
on Pluto TV that you can watch

old versions of common Writer.

But there's a common writer
comic book that's happening right

now, and I'm kind of pissed that
I'm not involved at all in that

Oh, no.

Like when, when our books are out,
Jeremy, and if I don't get a call

from these motherfuckers, I'm busting
down their doors and slamming this

shit in their face and saying, look,
I will, I just wanna do covers.

Or like, you know, if you have a letter
column, I'll draw little Chibs on it.

I wanna do something with it.

But Common Writer one, it's coming out
in bookstores soon, or comic shops.

But yeah, that's, yeah, common
writer, Toku Sato in general.

Watch it.

It's easy to get.

Now.

You don't have to Amazing.

Don't, you don't have to
like steal it anymore.

Mm-hmm.

Jeremy: Then what do you get?

Ben: So I'm gonna recommend Ghost and the.

For some more, you know, anime
from that eighties, nineties era

uh,

specifically ghost in the
show, the original movie.

Mm-hmm.

. So real, real introspective, very
philosophical, and also more of just that

gorgeous 90, like eighties, nineties,
just anime animation of just mechanical

mechanics doing their machine stuff by
hand, by hand machine on model by hand.

Incredible.

So good.

Yeah,

Jeremy: I, I don't know that I
have any like real great ones

that haven't already been covered.

,
Emily: sorry I stole your recommendation.

,
Jeremy: I mean, you know,
iron, but it was great.

I definitely recommend checking that out.

Oh, you know what?

I know.

Hold on.

I have to find the gotta make
sure I got the right name for this

Greg Cox series.

Met Cadet You.

Oh yeah.

Mm-hmm.

is a, I love

Emily: Matt cadet.

You.

That's such a good

Jeremy: comic.

That's awesome.

It's a, it's a kids and giant robots
comic that is not quite so traumatic.

hey.

And is not problematic.

And, and Greg is a, you know, if nothing
else, Greg is a great guy, so I would

always recommend checking at his stuff.

Oh,

Emily: fantastic.

Me cadet

Jeremy: you.

Yeah.

Go find that.

believe that was from boom,
that, that came out originally.

but uh,

Ben: yes, I believe you
are correct on that.

Yeah.

Emily: So for my recommendation if you're,
if you want a, a little bit more easily

digestible version of the story and you
have the time, read the, read the Evange

and manga cuz you can actually like look
at the letters for, in the words for a

bit longer and absorb them a bit better.

And there's some pretty great
mashups with Evangel Gillian

and Jack Black on on YouTube.

Check this.

Oh um, I posted those
in the chat, by the way.

Yep.

I love me.

Jack.

I don't know if there's one, knows
if this is still going on the way

streaming services just announce and
then cancel shows and animation, but

apparently last year Netflix announced
a Met Cadet u animated series.

Oh.

So let's hope it, so if it
sticks, that's still happening.

Yeah, right.

Yeah.

But my main recommendation
is a series that might be a

little bit difficult to find.

You may need to go find some, some
kind of niche streaming services.

It's called Ano or Blue Blas.

And it is a autobiographical story
about a, a comic artist that goes

to school with Hide and the founders
of GX and his experience with them.

It's based on a comic, it's
about his whole situation.

But , it goes into the foundation of GX
and their, their opening animations for

Dicon three and all this kind of stuff.

Yeah, yeah.

Which is you know, basically
how these fans became.

The, the, the icons that they
were really, really into.

And it's an incredible success story,
but also, you know, wrt with difficulties

of its own, but the main character of
this series is kind of in their shadow.

And it's so relatable as an art student,
as somebody who is trying to make it in

media, who is trying to find their, their
their style or their place, you know, if

they wanna be an animator or an artist.

And they're sort of always perpetually
in the shadow of this crazy genius

who is more crazy than genius.

Debatably and uh, hide is a character
in the show and is really hilarious.

Amazing.

Yes, he's, she's one of
the funniest characters.

And uh, the show itself
is just really hilarious.

So, it's AO or Blue Blas and
I don't think it's licensed.

So Do what?

Wilt

All right.

So that's that on that,

Jeremy: yeah.

That I think that wraps it up for us,

.
Emily: Just one last thing though.

Yeah.

Happy birthday.

Do you?

Happy birthday, do you?

Happy birthday Dear Emily.

Happy birthday.

I'm 20 again.

Aww.

Practice 20 is perfect.

I'm 20 twice . Tumbling down.

Tumbling down,

Jeremy: All right.

Well, until next time.

Happy birthday Emily.

And to all of you at home, stay horrified.

Emily: Yay.

Okay.

Did Happy birthday.

Thank you.

Yeah, bye.

True friends.

Oh my God, I have to be at seven hours.