Midsommar (aka Beware Talkative Swedes) w/ Greg Silber and Tina Horn
Jeremy: Good evening, and welcome to
Progressively Horrified, the podcast
where we old hoarded progressive
standards that never agreed to.
Tonight, we're following up on our recent
coverage of Hereditary by talking about
Ari ER's second directorial feature,
the truly traumatizing Mid Samara.
I am your host Jeremy Whitley.
And with me tonight I have a
panel of chil and Sena bytes.
First, they're here to challenge the
sexy werewolf, sexy, vampire binary.
My co-host Ben Kahn.
Ben, how are you tonight
Ben: I am here to announce that I
am running for Congress so I can
introduce legislation, creating a
federal ban on horror movies that
are two and a half hours long.
I got an hour into this movie
and realized I still had a whole
fucking horror movie to go too much.
Emily: gonna be excluding some
overseas horror movies then, my friend.
Ben: They're overseas.
That's fine.
They're, they're in like, fucking,
I'm running for US Congress.
I can't do shit for about them.
Emily: Oh.
So, but we can import two and a half hour
horror movies, but we shouldn't make them.
Okay.
Okay.
Ben: I'm really just trying to like, stop.
Ari asked her specifically.
Jeremy: Yeah.
Literally, I, the day before we
watched this Ben did text me and
say, are we watching the theatrical
version or the director's cut.
And I was like, motherfucker,
there's a director's cut.
I was like, yeah, it's
two hours and 50 minutes.
I was like, no, we're not doing that.
Tina: Y'all.
I went to the Alamo Draft house in Yonkers
to see the director's cut of MiiR in 2019.
Emily: they tell you how long it was?
Tina: they did.
Jeremy: Just add an extra level
of horror to this podcast.
Tina: I had seen it already.
And I am that kind of glutton
for that kind of punishment.
Emily: Okay.
Jeremy: Well, let's, let's put a
name to some of these voices you're
hearing before we go any further.
Next up the Cinnamon roll of
Cytes are co-host Emily Martin.
How are you tonight, Emily?
Emily: I'm just thinking
about how it's about family.
Jeremy: Like every Fast and the Furious
movie, this is basically the same film.
Emily: Yeah.
This is one of the fast,
this is the slow and the
serious,
Jeremy: Slow in the
gradual slow in the chill.
All right.
And our guest tonight, two
great friends of the podcast.
First completing the second half of our
Ari Aser biathlon uh, after braving the
hereditary episode it's Greg Silver.
Greg, welcome back.
Greg: Hi.
Thank you for having me.
Uh, Back on.
So soon.
Uh, I'm gonna take this opportunity
to formally, for formally uh, announce
that I too am running for Congress
against Ben on the platform of uh,
movies of all genres should be as
long or as short as they need to be.
Emily: There
Ben: No, they
Emily: on
Greg: All right.
Well, I look forward to, I I look
forward to uh, seeing you on the debate
Ben: League movie where Superman
didn't show up for three hours.
Greg: But well see.
See this, this, this is bipartisan cuz I
agree that that Superman movie was bad.
Jeremy: As long as they need to be.
He distinctly said,
Greg: we might be able to find
some common ground after, after all
Jeremy: and making your glorious return
to the podcast, the amazing Tina Horn.
Tina, how are you?
, Tina: I'm good.
I'm a little trepidatious, , but confident
ultimately, cuz I know you guys have been
working on this podcast for a while, but
I just wanted to let you know that I have
decided that I'm gonna write my thesis
on holding horror movies to progressive
standards they absolutely never agreed to.
But I want you to know
that I'm open to collabo.
Ben: Oh my God, so many of my notes
are just Christian fucking sucks.
Emily: Yeah.
So when you thought, when you had
that idea, were you actually going
to college for a thesis or did you
just come along to the progressively
horrified trip to bang Swedish girls
Tina: which that's actually,
that would be a fun game to play.
Like who are you in this crew?
Like a, like an, are you
a Samantha or a Charlotte?
You know, like, are you a Mark or a Josh?
Emily: Oh,
Jeremy: God.
Tina: They all say shitty things.
I mean that not to cut too much
to the chase, but to me, that is
the true genius of this movie.
And the thing that endeared it to me the
most is, I don't know if I've ever seen
such a thorough, sophisticated portrait
of what gaslighting actually is and how
insidious it is and how, horrific it is.
And one of my favorite genres,
or one of my favorite things that
genre fiction can do is portray,
yes, it does feel this horrific
to have people treat you this way.
And also to be socialized as a woman
and to like reflexively, compulsively
feel like it is your responsibility in
every moment to appease everyone else.
no one is not complicit in
the shitty treatment of.
Jeremy: I hate, Christian
with a fiery hot passion.
Like I despise that man
from the bottom of my soul.
Like from like the first time he shows up,
just like the way that he delivers lines
just over the phone to his girlfriend
who's going through, even before the real
tragedy at the beginning of this movie,
already going through some horrible shit.
I was just, Oh, I fucking hate this guy.
And it just gets worse and
worse and worse and worse.
Which leads to what I was gonna before is
that I have, I feel like a controversial
opinion about this I far prefer the
evil cult at the center of this movie
to almost all the other characters.
Like, they're not that wrong.
Ben: I'm very in favor of
their pro psychedelic stance.
I, I support their casual
use of fun time drugs.
Tina: I agree with that.
Ben: I also, actually, that was
something I really liked was how
this, movie depicted uh, shrooms or
like being on shrooms specifically,
like the visual hallucinations.
Like, I liked how it wasn't just
like, oh, this person did shrooms.
Now it's fucking whatever.
Fucking weird vision hallucination.
Emily: Yeah.
Ben: Yeah.
Like, it was like realistic
visual hallucinations.
And I liked how they were doing it,
like in the background and not just
when you're in like a POV shot to really
communicate into the viewer, like just
from a cinematic or cinematography level.
I feel like they really nailed
depicting mushroom trips.
Tina: I totally agree.
The other thing, cinematically that
is so impressive to me about the
subtlety, and in many ways this is not
a subtle movie, but in, in a lot of ways
actually, it's in the sense that it's so
intricate and detailed and like so many
things in every frame are designed and
planned on a character level, on a plot
level, on a production design level.
But the thing that the movie captures
in terms of a psychedelic experience,
I think is the way that when you
are having a consciousness altering
experience with plant medicine, the
thing that you are paying attention
to tends to be the thing that maybe
warps or reveals some meaning to you.
And like, that's an amazing thing
that the movie does is like when it,
when we're in Danny's point of view,
Emily: Mm-hmm.
Tina: things change in the
way that they would for Danny.
Emily: Yeah.
Tina: that like directs your
attention throughout the movie cuz
they're kind of lightly tripping the
whole movie, which contributes to
pervasive disorientation, which also
makes a movie seem longer than it's,
Ben: Really explains why
they're just like, yeah, sure.
Like just going along with it.
Cuz when you're that drug down, you
just be like fucking, yeah, sure.
This is happening
Tina: but they're also
drugged out on grad school.
Ben: Oh
Emily: sleeping well because
of the fucking midnight sun.
Greg: Yeah, that, that, that would,
that would really be bad for me
personally, because I'm the kind of
sleeper who, like, I need absolute
pitch, black darkness and no noise.
So I just uh, yeah.
Even before you get to the
human sacrifice, I might have
a hard time living in this cult
Ben: by will Coulter's, like the one
moment where he is a relatable human
being is when he is on this Shroom trip.
Just being extremely not okay with
9:00 PM daylight and the literal quote,
I don't want new people right now.
Emily: yeah.
Tina: that was in my notes too.
I completely agree.
That is the, the dialogue in
that scene when they are on the
hill is so hilariously on point.
Jeremy: I, I think the depiction
of them tripping on the hillside
is one of the better depictions of.
, what people using drugs are like
in a movie that doesn't involve
like, you know, Requiem for a
dream, levels of horrible shit
Tina: Oh
my God,
Jeremy: is like the group of them
talking and also not quite being
conscious of each other at the time.
Emily: Have, have any of you been
anywhere where there's a midnight son?
Jeremy: No,
Tina: No
Ben: No.
Emily: Okay.
I was in Norway in 1996
and I still remember-.
Jeremy: The horror.
Emily: Up that was.
You don't need drugs
and, and one thing is-.
Jeremy: But you'll want them.
Ben: The movie uses
brightness very effectively.
It is unnervingly, creepily bright.
Emily: Yeah.
And, when you have the midnight
sun or you know, and when
you're close to that latitude,
you'll have some, twilight maybe.
But twilight at two in the
morning is still fucked up.
Jeremy: Yeah.
Emily: I think there's a
point that they did that.
Jeremy: Yeah.
They, they do it in one of the last
series of sequences towards the end there.
, it's really incredible.
In some ways it feels, and some
of this is sort of the history of
folk horror, but in some ways it
feels sort of anti horror movie.
And that, like, in the same way
that uh, neo noir stuff is sort of
the opposite of noir and that like
everything is really bright all the time.
Like there's lots of great colors.
There's no jump scares in this movie.
Like this movie is not
interested in startling you.
It is interested in holding onto
incredibly disturbing images.
Like this movie is a horror
movie of images of you
seeing things and going shit.
Emily: Well, I feel like this
is a good point to do the recap
so we can all think about that.
Director Ari Astra, writer Ari Astra.
So talented, so multi-talented.
Wow.
That sounded really shitty, but it's not,
Ben: It really did.
You said that with so much stink on it.
I know you didn't mean to too,
which is the wildest part.
Emily: They're, I, they're
laughing at me with all of their
accolades and like, who's this?
Anyway director and writer, Ari Aster.
Um, It's about family stars Florence
Pugh, Jack Rainer, William Jackson,
Harper Will Polter and Wilhelm Blore,
and a lot of Nordic looking people.
We begin exterior day,
Sweden, winter, that's all.
Then in a different winter,
we have Danny, our heroine.
She is dealing with her sister's
mental breakdown, despite her
boyfriend's dismissal of the situation.
Turns out her sister has died by suicide
asphyxiating from carbon monoxide
and killing her parents as well.
This is rough,
Jeremy: Visually difficult to look at too.
Tina: can I just say that that scene is
also it's visually excruciating and rough.
And to me, this is a great time to
talk about the score, cuz that is, I
cannot, that score just like really
got under my skin in that scene.
And the score is done by this fellow
named, bobby Krillick, I'm not sure
if I'm pronouncing that right, but he
composes and performs as the Hacken cloak.
And apparently Ri Astra was listening
to his music while writing this movie.
And I've, I've been, I've been using it.
I need like, instrumental music,
like uh, no words in the language
that I can read while I'm writing.
And I have been using Hacksan
cloak music while writing.
So let's see if that shows up in um, the
derangement of anything I'm working on.
Ben: The score is great,
but also the use of silence.
Like I've never seen the way this
mo like audible negative space,
the way this movie achieves it.
Jeremy: I, I do love how they, how
they match her scream to the violins in
there, and it, it's very like haunting.
That was a thing that the first
time I watched this movie,
I was like, They just did,
Ben: Lawrence Pugh can scream and
cry like with the best of them.
Like when she's just sobbing so
hard, she's like, like an engine.
Sputtering
Greg: Oh my
Emily: Yeah.
Greg: it's devastating.
Ben: That
Emily: incredible grief.
Ben: me.
Greg: She's such a great actress too.
I
I, mean, I don't know if we've
said that yet, but there's a lot of
great performances in this movie.
Not just her, but oh my God, she is
just, you, you, you know, you think of
crying and screaming as such a typical
horror movie thing, but, somehow she
manages to scream and cry in a way that
I've never heard before in a horror
movie, with not, with this kind of
combination of both intensity and honesty.
Jeremy: I will say, I'm gonna talk shit
about the guys in this movie the whole
way through, because they absolutely
deserve it as characters, but the actors
are really killing it.
Like, the performance of Christian uh,
by Jack Rainer is so nuanced, especially
in like the later part of the movie when
he's, we'll get to the scene where he
is tripping at the table and doesn't
know what's going on, doesn't know
he's been drugged and like the old man
claps at him and he just like reacts in
this like, horrified, traumatized way.
Tina: that is
Jeremy: you do
that?
Tina: top, top five moments
in the, in the movie for me.
Cuz he just, he becomes the little
baby that he is, like on his face, like
Emily: yes.
I, and I wonder if they added
any sort of like, effects there.
Like I feel like there's some, because of
Jeremy: there's a
Emily: were.
Jeremy: the air moves around him,
Emily: Well, yeah, but like his eyes
get bigger and bigger and bigger in
this movie as he be like recesses or
Tina: I th I think that, the distortion
that we've talked about a bit already,
like in the landscape, in people's faces.
is throughout, and it, like, it's
not always, again, like yellow
submarine, like obvious that
psychedelic things are happening.
And there are things that I've definitely
noticed on a rewatch that like a flower is
breathing or like someone's face in this
one moment gets like a little warm, but
then it just, it doesn't call attention
to itself un unnecessarily, which is
more what a psychedelic experience is.
Greg: Well, I, I'm really glad we're
talking about how, how great of an actor
uh, Jack Rainer is in this as Christian,
because we can all agree Christian sucks.
Ben: Jack Rayner does a great job
portraying this shitty character.
Emily: Yeah.
It's, it's nice one of actors, like, you
know, the actors know exactly what they're
doing when they're portraying shitty
characters that well, and I know that,
you know, like, I can trust that person.
They know what it's, what
it means to be an asshole.
Despite his dismissal
the worst has occurred.
The droning comes with violence this
time, and it is not as difficult to
listen to as it is in her hereditary.
Jeremy: It's about a constant
horrifying thrumming underneath
everything like her e.
Emily: yeah, it's not,
Difficult to listen to.
It, it has some nice stuff going on.
Anyway, so Christian and his squad of
winters are going to Sweden for college,
academia reasons to see the titular
zamar Christian invites Danny along
after a long, awkward conversation over
a picture of Larry David Face palming.
I really hope none of these guys are
doing their thesis in communication
because they're so fucking inept at it.
But anyway, so one of the friends in the,
in the Winter Squad is a Swedish dude from
the magical world of Helsing, England.
It's actually Holand, but I think
it's funny that it is Helsing because
is that where Helsing comes from?
We just don't know.
If I was Dracula, I would be
fucking afraid of these people.
Anyway, so first red flag for pe the,
this Swedish friend, he talks too much
for a Swedish dude, second red flag.
Ben: That checks out.
Emily: grew up in a commune.
Jeremy: He's also drawing some
shit that he won't tell her
what it is when she comes in.
I fucking hate that.
Emily: yeah, p i, you know, p was
suss from the get go because he was
like, oh, I'm sorry for your loss.
Regular Swedish person would just give
you an alcohol and a food and nod.
And then you talk about
Nintendo once they're drunk.
Anyway, so p is acting
inappropriate already.
Despite Christian's as assurance
that Danny isn't going to Sweden,
despite everyone inviting her,
she goes to Sweden, act two.
We are now in Sweden.
We roll up on Haling England.
Uh, And sweet and friend PE introduces,
introduces everybody to his friend ig.
who also brought people from overseas.
Danny is pressured into doing
their mushrooms immediately.
This is your reminder that this movie
is 127, excuse me, 147 minutes long.
That's not the long version, oh.
Hi, mark.
Immediately regrets doing
drugs under the midnight sun.
Only thing relatable that he does, Danny
is having a fine time until someone says
the word family which is unfortunate
because that's what this movie is about.
And she's just a little
guy and it's her birthday.
Come on.
Um, Danny Awakens from her bad
trip to continue further into
the Swedish wilderness and they
enter a big eyeball made out of
wood and freak out about ticks.
Now they're in hga where everyone
wears white and is blonde, and they're
greeted by a family of flutist.
It is pastoral and idyllic and
bucolic and lots of words like that.
And it is the cult shit on earth.
Meanwhile, a member of the cult who
is not as pretty as everyone else is
doing weird finger painting, and Pelle
is showing off his drawing skills
to Danny in a totally not weird way.
This is important later, we are indeed
going to ignore the bear as well as
the love spell comic on display about
putting your pubs in your lover's food
and the forbidden triangle building.
Jeremy: Not just pubes.
I'd like to point out they don't
emphasize this, but there is also
period blood going into the drink.
And you will distinctly note when you
get to the food scene where he pulls
a pube out of his pie, that they don't
say it, but his glass is significantly
pinker than everybody else's.
Greg: Yep, Yep,
yep.
Emily: I actually didn't notice that.
Ben: I did wonder about that.
I did.
I did notice that, and I did wonder
about it, and now I wish I hadn't.
Jeremy: Everybody else is
drinking a very yellowish liquid.
His is sort of a pinkish
Tina: you guys,
Emily: Yeah,
Tina: that is, fucking hilarious.
I have a story.
Emily, you
Greg: Oh no.
Tina: so,
Ben: Uh Oh.
Tina: so far, in the movie,
Emily: I was trying to keep
it, shorter than the movie
Tina: you're doing an amazing job.
Um, But I really do need to tell you
this, this story, it's pretty brief.
So when I saw this movie in the
theater at the Nighthawk off of
Prospect Park shout out Nighthawk,
Greg: I saw it at the
uh, at Williamsburg one.
Tina: next.
Excellent.
The best city in the world to go to
the movies and do everything else.
So I went with two of my wonderful
friends um, who are both uh, writers
and educators and, and performers
that everybody should check out.
Uh, Sophies Thomas and Dia Dynasty.
And something that Sophie and
Dia have in common is that
they're both practicing witches.
Okay?
Not like, uh, pointy ha Halloween, like
they're like legit mystical broads.
And Sophie has written books
like Glamor Witch and Sex
Witch, like, they're amazing.
Check 'em out.
So anyway, we're having a horror movie
date and this scene where there is this
beautiful pan over an illustration that
tells you exactly what is gonna happen
in the movie, which is just such, again,
like a beautiful and funny conceit.
And so it pans really slowly over
the scene that shows a young woman
being attracted to a young man.
And so she takes some scissors
to her pubic hair and then bleeds
into a cup and like bakes a pubic
hair into a pie, and then she's
pregnant and they're in love, right?
We like see
this whole little fairytale
like play out totally visually.
And then of course, that's
exactly what happens, right?
So
Emily: Yeah.
Tina: Sophie and Dia start
giggling next to me at this point.
And the edibles are hitting,
obviously, and I look at them and
they both look at me and they're
like, yeah, that's how you do it.
Emily: Yeah, yeah.
They've also incorporated that into
certain in falla, you're supposed
to bake pies with your menstrual br
blood and semen and stuff like that.
Tina: I just really Appreciated like
watching a movie that is in part about
witchcraft with people who practice
witchcraft and have them be like, oh yeah,
if you wanna make someone fall in love
with you, you gotta bleed in their tea.
Emily: oh yeah.
You gotta, you gotta get
some master blood in there.
I mean, it's sympathetic
magic, essentially.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Greg: I, I, I just wanna put this out
there that if anyone listening has a crush
on me, just, you know, ask me politely.
Like, you don't need to, you know, put
your uh, period blood or your pubes
Emily: it's
Greg: in a pie.
Emily: Once it's cooked,
Greg: I, I'm, I'm, I'm just
saying, I, I, you know, I don't
know who out there is listening.
If there are any women who are like,
okay, this is the way to win Greg's heart.
There, there, there are easier ways.
I'm just, I'm just
Tina: Listen, there is a lot of iron
in the stuff that some of us slop off.
I'm just putting that out there.
Jeremy: you don't have to start
with the nuclear option though.
Like you
Greg: Right.
Right.
Jeremy: can, start with flirting,
you know?
Emily: yeah,
Greg: Just,
talk to me.
Emily: Yeah.
As long As you know, you're
not doing any eugenics.
Tina: Yeah.
I mean, it's eugenics and rape, but you
Emily: Yeah.
The other, that other stuff.
Ben: look, it's, they're mostly
non eugenics with a little
bit of eugenics as a treat.
Emily: well, this, like
this is eugenics all the
Ben: Well, no, they're
like, this Cult is like 90%.
Look, we know we're small.
Let's just bring random outside people
and you know, we'll keep things.
Okay.
Except for the one time
when we need the Oracle.
We look, they, they do a
little bit that that other 10%
is a lot of Oracle eugenics.
Emily: Okay, well,
Jeremy: Hold, hold on.
Now we've had this a couple
of times in this movie.
This happens a lot in this movie, but
Mark fucking spells out what's going on
in here in the first 15 minutes of the
movie because they're driving through
Sweden and , uh, one of the other guys is
like, why is everybody in Sweden so hot?
And it's like, oh, well it's because the
Vikings stole all the hot women from other
countries to make all their offspring hot.
And it's like, that's
literally what they're doing.
Like they're stealing the people that
they, you know, want to knock them up to,
influence what kind of children they have.
Obviously there's not like any
intention for him to be remain
part of this group at any point.
Emily: Yeah, unless they're the
May queen, I mean, I don't know.
Ben: What the fuck was up with the Oracle?
Emily: Yeah, like, when I say that this
person is not as pretty as everyone else,
they have been heavily made up for the
movie to appear as if they are deformed
in the face in a very exaggerated way.
But it is very, a very stark
contrast because everyone else is
various levels of Swedish pretty,
which is a specific kind of pretty.
Tina: Very symmetrical.
Emily: Yeah, some symmetrical.
Tina: master race.
I mean, let's just say it.
Emily: Yeah.
But, you know, but there's the young
people and then there's all of the
older people who all have laugh lines.
They all fucking look like
David the Nome except tall.
And they're all like , the least
intimidating looking people that
you've ever seen in your life.
And they're all like smoking
pipes and bacon pies and shit.
And they're, they're
another kind of appealing.
I'm mentioning all this because the
character, the Oracle who we first
see in the scene is obviously supposed
to contrast that in a cartoonish way.
Almost like CGI face kind of way.
So, um, now we have explaining, you
know, starts to explain what's going on.
And uh, it shows them they're new, very
pretty, very Etsy sleeping quarters.
It's so cottage core, but
it's also very public.
So, you know, everyone sleeps
in a giant house that has
paintings on the inside of it.
Pale basically is like, oh
yeah, after 72 they die.
Not a lot of explanation of the
context around this, but when Danny
asks what happens after 72, he
straight up does the finger across the
throat and no one talks about that.
Jeremy: After his very touching
rendition of Seasons of Love.
Emily: Yes.
Um.
Ben: Can't accuse him
of lying about that one.
They ask him when he just admits it flat
out and there's like, oh, that must be
metaphor for something that isn't that.
Emily: yeah, like all of the stuff on the
walls being like, do you really have dudes
with their boners sticking the wrong way?
Like watching you be covered in flowers?
Spoilers you do.
Well, they do.
So anyway, now we have the first
of the mini awkward dinner scenes
the prolonged silence at the dinner
table is the most Swedish thing that
is actually going on in this film.
Not a lot of chanting though, usually
happening before the drinking.
Cheaty actually has some sense of humor
and he would not translate the word
. Since he knows that Christian and Highmark
haven't done any research whatsoever for
their academic college trip, although it
is kind of fucked up to not warn Danny
about it because right after dinner we go
see the brutal ritual assisted suicide.
And no one has told Simon or Corin,
which are the friends that Ingamar
brought and now the Colts are like,
what the fuck are these guys problem?
The ritual doesn't go perfect, and
they have to smash a dude in the face
because he didn't smash himself up
enough when he jumped off the cliff.
Rookie mistake.
Jeremy: do have a cool
ritual hammer for this
though.
Emily: Yeah, they do have
a, the boomer hammer.
So, oh
Ben: Remov.
Emily: yeah, the Boomer.
Boomer.
Jeremy: Connie and Simon are a
bit rude in this scene though i.
Tina: so
Emily: well, I don't think anybody
warned them, even though, and then this
is a really good example of, Tina's
discussion of the gaslighting, because
you see how they're warned earlier.
It is very subtle and
nobody talks about it.
cheaty could have talked
about it, but he doesn't.
And I think he just wants
to fuck with Ojai, mark and
Christian because they're shitty.
And you know, I'm with him there.
It's just Danny.
I'm like, no, you, you know what happened.
You's full on, everybody.
Full on news.
News.
What's happened to Danny?
And no one has made any, like, has
sat down with her yet and been like,
let's hold you for a moment and tell
you about what you're about to see.
So, you know, even,
Tina: I have hot take about
Ingmar and Simon and Connie,
Emily: Yeah.
Tina: so it's such a small part of
the movie that it seems incidental,
but I'm kind of obsessed with the
fact that when Imar, who is pays.
Swedish friend who is also on his
covert operation, like bring people
back to be sacrificed when he introduces
them, there's this awkward interaction
where he says, oh, actually, you
know, it's funny because I was dating
Connie when she met Simon and now
they're engaged and they both look at
him like, that is not what happened.
And Connie like, you go girl is like,
no, we went out once and I don't think
it was the dates and you're actually
being kind of creepy and inappropriate.
So my hot take is that Ingmar
chose the people to be sacrificed
in a very vindictive way.
Or he was like, this girl rejected me.
I feel CD by this other guy.
I wanna make blood eagle uh,
stuffed dolls out of them.
I gotta bring somebody back so I might
as well like enjoy, like punishing
these people, which I just feel like
it's not that important to the plot or
any of the dynamics of the characters,
but like, it gives a little bit of
dimension and background to who these
sort of more minor characters are.
And it also supports this theme that I
keep talking about being obsessed with,
of like, you know, you could use the
word toxic of like the toxic dynamic
between the sexes, but also like male
entitlement that like somehow he has
some proprietary ownership over Connie
that he feels like he needs to bring
up because they like went on one date.
Jeremy: Yeah.
Greg: I don't, I don't know if
I agree with, with the idea that
that's everything you just said
is not important to the plot.
Because I, I, mean, if you're watching it
and you miss those points, I, I, you'll
be able to understand the movie from a
raw plot perspective that thematically
it, it, it's absolutely essential.
I think the, the way that, first
of all, we're showing that this is
not, even beyond the obvious ways
that this is not a utopian society.
These are still people.
These are not, People who are so
enlightened, they're still jealous and
manipulative like anyone else could
be in any culture or any society.
Emily: Yeah.
Tina: Totally
Ben: suck everywhere around the world.
Greg: absolutely frozen company accepted
but also I, I, I think the way that uh,
this movie speaks to gender dynamics too,
like the way that sex and relationships
even in the society where it's like they
kind of have a built-in support structure.
It's still very transactional.
Emily: Yeah.
I think especially with a Astor knowing
what he does in these movies and being
familiar with his style, nothing is
happening that is not deliberate,
you know?
Greg: Yeah.
Emily: Um, And they tell us things about
the characters, which is, a thing that
I really appreciate about Ri Asser.
Jeremy: One thing I do appreciate with
that, leaving aside the, the earlier
stuff with Ingmar, which I think is very
well observed this is the first of, I
think the several instances where like the
thing that is very horror movie about this
movie is that people die the same for the
same reasons they die in horror movies.
They break the rules and they're
killed because they break the rules.
And like in this case, Connie and Simon
freak out perhaps justifiably, but like
they're like observing these people's
rituals and they're like shouting at them
like, what the fuck are you guys doing?
Like, it's very clear that nobody
pushed these old people off a cliff.
Like it is something that they have
decided to do and that they did.
And you.
There's obviously some shock there,
but also it's pretty fucking rude.
Tina: Dude, he, he, the rudest part
is when Simon is yelling at the second
person to jump the gentleman and
he is screaming, don't do it, sir.
And it's like, fuck, sit down,
Ben: It's like the guy
knows what he is doing.
Like the guy knows why
he came onto the rock.
you're right.
Like they don't die until it's like
they interrupt the ceremony or pee on
the sacred tree, but also they needed
outsiders to die for their ceremony.
So it's like, weren't they kind
of fucked no matter what they did?
Tina: They were, and then, yeah.
And Cheaty deliberately goes and
does something that he's specifically
told not to do but yeah, I mean, they
were like their fate was sealed and
they were being set up to transgress.
I mean, honestly, there's is
Ben: Willy Wonka type situation.
Tina: totally, and there's an
interpret, there's an interpreter.
That's a good point.
There's an inter, there's an
interpretation of this where the haga
is setting them up to have this like
contrast of being rude to, to, so that
they have this like justification, like
they don't seem to be too upset about it,
but maybe in, in some way they feel like
they
Ben: Well, they're very
upset about the tree.
The tree, they're very pissed off about
Jeremy: wonder, dude is not,
Emily: Yeah.
Ben: Also, speaking of the
book, that book, that book was
fucking written in windings.
Right?
Emily: that was, those were rooms.
Those were rooms, Ben.
some of them may have
been wing wing dings.
That's true.
I mean, some of the book was
written in a, brown paint that
was just smashed on the page.
Jeremy: you gotta put the envelopes over
Ben: my ignorance.
I refuse to apologize for being
insensitive to European cultures.
Emily: That's fair.
So yeah, so Simon and Connie declare
themselves Audi 5,000 and academic drama
erupts between Cheaty and Christian.
As Christian decides he's going to
steal Shadys idea for his thesis.
It's open to collaboration though.
But that's kind of moot anyway because
now at this point, now that they're out
there and they watch the people die pale
is like, you know, actually they don't
want you to write about their cult.
Even though PE was there for their
months of planning this, you know, they
were, this movie started in mid-winter.
There's been like six months
of planning this trip.
And pale just now is like, oh yeah,
you know how you wanted to like do
the research, whole research thing
about researching, doing the research.
Well, apparently you can't
research and nobody's like, huh.
Danny is also understandably electing
to Ali, but Kelly says, Hey, sorry, I
know you won, went through all so all
this intense trauma with your family
and everything, and you know how your
parents were old and they also died and in
retrospect, not telling you, this charming
old couple is gonna smash themselves
on some rocks in front of everybody.
Kind of my bad.
But here I'll offer you
some drugs in Groomy for us.
Okay?
Is that okay?
And um, Danny is relatably overwhelmed
by that amount of information.
But she has some very bad dreams because
she can't sleep under the midnight sun.
Meanwhile, grooming commences
for Christian as Pele's sister.
Maha starts doing magic at him.
Pale tells Cheaty and Christian that
they have the elder's permission
for their thesis as long as
they change names and locations.
And then pale is like, Hey
Christian, you wanna fuck my sister?
And then that is when Ojai Mark is
busted for pissing on the Sacred Tree.
And this is why we asked first.
that place is bucolic and beautiful.
I don't care how fucking ladder is,
Jeremy: The forest is
like 10 feet from him.
Like why is he pissing out in
the open in the middle of this
place by this fallen tree?
He's, he's a real shit.
This guy.
I, I fucking hate Mark.
When mark died, I was like justified.
Greg: there's also something about
when one particular man is very
mad at him, there's something about
the line and it's translated from
Swedish put your disgusting dick away.
That just made me burst out
laughing and I, I don't know
why, like, it's so juvenile.
It's like, it's not something
that is particularly clever.
But just, I, I don't know.
It's something about in that moment,
hearing it, that phrase from that man I
just kind of like exploded into laughter.
Jeremy: I mean, it made sense for me.
I'm pretty sure that guy's, Dick is
probably rank right, like he doesn't
Emily: yeah, absolutely.
Jeremy: is just,
Ben: absolutely.
Rand
Emily: Yeah.
Ben: those balls are downright noxious.
Emily: and they're wearing the
same clothes a lot I agree, Greg.
He, it's everyone is all like, I bring you
love and then , someone's going, fuck you.
It's
Greg: Yeah.
Put your disgusting dick away.
I, I
I, I
Emily: disgusting.
Greg: and I can't disagree.
He should put his
Emily: Yeah,
Greg: dick away
Emily: absolutely.
Holy Tree or not?
Jeremy: That's where they shovel
the ashes from the old people.
Like they're doing that in the
background in one of the scenes.
And then he goes and pisses up,
like he's basically pissing on the
ashes of these old people that just
Emily: yeah.
Okay.
This is
Ben: so that's barely out of the way.
He is like, Feet away.
Like this is not a hidden space
Emily: Yeah.
Ben: like he is peeing
an open view of everyone
Tina: even the scene of them cremating
the people and then shoveling the ashes.
Like, do you guys know that
they actually built everything
that you see in the movie?
They built the village?
Jeremy: you know, already as
his fucking nuts for that.
Cuz he did the same thing in hereditary.
They couldn't find the house that
they wanted and they needed one that
was a model for that opening scene.
So they just built a whole house and then
I guess he was like, for my second movie,
I'm gonna build a whole fucking village.
Tina: And it's in Hungary,
Ben: That's wild.
Greg: Cut to like 50 years from
now Ari ER's final film, he'll
have created a whole planet
Tina: Oh my
Ben: Okay, so he's just trying,
to just live out Sinec key.
Yes.
He's just trying to be Phillips
Seymour Hoffman in that movie.
I appreciate that because in an era
where we get just lots and lots of
just everything on a green screen,
occasionally I need like, we need
filmmakers to just be absolute fucking
insane control freaks sometimes.
Greg: Yep.
Ben: get like that good coppola type.
Tina: But then you get also this,
like, he like not only built all of
this, but like invented all of these
processes and all of these rituals
and all of the materials for them.
And you see all of these people go
through the choreography a as if
they've been doing it their entire lives
Emily: Yeah.
Jeremy: saying is Ari Aser
is an insufferable dm.
he's just,
Emily: I will
say a lot of this comes
from like real shit.
Jeremy: down.
Emily: Yeah.
Which is why I was so mad at Hereditary,
cuz I'm like, I know you do shit.
I know you're fucking, you're uptight
about all of this world building.
You can make payment,
actually payment son of a bit.
Anyway mark is pissing on the Sacred
retreat and they're mad at, at him now.
Connie is about to leave.
She tells Danny she's about to leave,
but Simon is nowhere to be found.
Apparently he left before her
and uh, the cultus continued
to gaslight her onto death.
Meanwhile, another cultus assures
Christian that they don't usually
do the incest, so they have to
invite peoples outside to come
in and liven up the jean pool.
Absolutely nothing to do
with their visit though.
Don't ask any questions.
I mean, you can
Ben: The degree to which this movie is the
Dick Family series of skits from letter
Kennedy, but played completely straight.
Emily: I mean, that's
sweetest humor right there,
Tina: but also another thing that I love,
or just a continuation of this thing that
I love about every, like plot advancement
and character development of this movie.
Like Connie and Danny are both
like, that doesn't make any sense.
Like Connie in particular
is like, fuck you, no way.
And everyone else is, You are just
overreacting and I don't know.
I, I
Greg: You know what it reminds me
of, and this is going to seem like a
very strange comparison at first, so
bear with me Borat, because part of
the , like the whole mission that Sasha
Baron Cohen set out with, with Bora
was to kind of, kind of explore that
space where people try to be like, oh,
well this is just a different culture.
They do things differently and like trying
to explore where the line is, where you're
just like, okay, I don't know where you
come from, but like sacrifice is not okay.
Tina: yeah.
And also like weaponizing
politeness, right?
And like weaponizing, like
your, your like expectations of
like how people are to behave.
Emily: Yes, absolutely.
Cheaty gets a cool lesson about the
magical records and how they're all ri
written by fetishized disabled people
who are deliberate products of incest.
This is a direct quote
but can't take photos.
Another Swedish dinner occurs with
the sassy bacas, and Danny is calling
out Christian for being a dick.
I just want us to savor that.
And Christian starts
eating a special Maha puke.
Connie also has disappeared because she
has melanin and the winter squad has,
has told a total in a bullshit about
how she is capital T totally capital F.
Fine.
Oh, hi.
Mark is dragged off by the unassuming
Inga while being obviously mean mugged
by the, about pissing on the sacred tree.
And they play skin.
The Fool in the middle of the night Cheaty
sneaks into the Sacred book house and
takes illegal photos of the rude books
and gets literally busted the Oracle
watches while dressed in a mark suit.
That's gross though.
Like why would you wanna
put that dirty dick on?
And he
Greg: I mean, are, are, are we
sure that putting on the, the,
the man suit included the dick?
I, I assumed it was just a mask,
Emily: his
Jeremy: the, yeah, I don't know if it
was supposed to be
Greg: but, I, I, I wasn't
sure if that was his own dick.
I, I assumed that was
his, like his own dick.
I didn't think he was like wearing this
prosthetic dick.
Jeremy: suit off before he
Emily: Okay.
Yeah.
Tina: got a whole, they've
got a whole process for that.
This is a very processed porn
movie.
Emily: kids at a very early age how to
Tina: 100%.
Can we also shout out the preponderance of
full frontal flacid nudity in this movie?
Emily: Yeah.
Greg: There was quite a bit of
Emily: I'm gonna give a golf clap
Ben: Oh yeah, this, this
Tina: Yeah.
Ben: is not afraid to just show a floppy.
Emily: Yeah.
A lot of floppy dicks
Jeremy: and, and titties.
There's a lot of full frontal,
Ben: This, the big sex scene in
this movie is legitimately the
funniest sex scene since Watchman.
Greg: Oh, I'm,
Tina: there's plenty,
there's plenty to talk
Greg: that was not my reaction.
I was genuinely disturbed.
Ben: I laughed so hard when the old
lady is just pushing his butt cheeks.
I
Greg: No, no, I'm, I'm sorry.
That n nightmare fuel, that, that
was, that was not my reaction
Tina: The movie wants us to laugh
Ben: I was on the floor
Emily: Yeah.
I'm gonna go ahead and be like,
yeah, that's a rape scene.
And Christian was getting raped.
Greg: Yes,
Tina: but it,
Emily: he was getting, he was full on
Tina: also designed to make you laugh.
Ben: When the one lady just starts
singing and he's just staring at
her for like a solid 30 seconds
Greg: I, I, look, did I laugh the
first time I saw it in theaters?
Yes.
But it was a deeply uncomfortable laugh.
The kind of laugh that you laugh
when you're like, I am going
to have nightmares about this.
Emily: Yeah.
Ben: I was expecting any minute, like the
freeze frame, record scratch like, ah.
So you're probably
wondering how I got here.
Emily: I'm so sorry.
Well, in fact, you saw, watch the
whole movie about how we got there.
It's just now
so
Ben: true.
But
Emily: someone
should reedit.
Jeremy: started with,
with that
Emily: Yeah.
Okay.
So, uh, cheat's literally busted.
We are now down to two.
And Christian , the cult has come
to them and we're like, so, I don't
know where your friends are, but
our sacred book is totally missing.
Oh my God, do you know anything about it?
And Christian being a a solid bro
is like, cheaty totally stole it.
That
Greg: Yeah.
Ben: worst.
Emily: Yeah.
Fucking,
Greg: he he he goes so far
to say we were never friends.
like
like I think that's an important point
of the movie too, because it's like,
it really shows us like, Christian
is a bad boyfriend, but like it's not
just the way he interacts with women.
He is just bad at people
and relationships.
In every conceivable way.
Emily: They should have
done communication.
If they majored in communication,
they probably would still be alive.
Anyway, so it's time
for the Midsummer dance.
Danny isn't able to give informed consent
to do the drugs, and she has volunteered
to dance under the, the metal stone
and compete to be the mid-summer queen.
All she has to do is dance longer
than everyone else, but she's into it.
Tina: anybody has ha have, have y'all
seen the, the original seventies wicker?
Greg: Yes,
Tina: The, this scene is
obviously big wickerman vibes,
Emily: so to do the dance Christian Manuel
is taken it to the Etsy shed thinking,
can we boo grilled on the missing tome?
Instead the matriarch is like,
you gotta fuck this girl.
Okay.
And then Christian rides
back at the dance and he
Jeremy: Her, her, her speech
is much more like, what are
your intentions with this girl?
And could it be fucking her Like she,
she calls him, she calls him into her
office like he's in trouble and then
is like, so could you wanna fuck her?
Like,
Greg: If we
Tina: Meanwhile, he is staring.
Greg: to fuck, could you fuck her?
Tina: Meanwhile, he's staring at a
beautiful image of a bear on fire.
Emily: yeah.
And he is like, there was a bear earlier.
Wait,
Jeremy: asks what the bear
did to deserve to be burned.
Emily: bear was super, well,
it couldn't even be racist
cause everybody is racist, so,
Tina: Justice for the bear.
Emily: yeah.
Yeah.
Tina: The bear was
not toxic.
Greg: I, I mean, I don't think
bears are capable of being toxic.
Emily: true.
Greg: bears.
they, can be dangerous if,
if, you get between their.
Ben: As far as I know, there are
no known poisonous bear species
Emily: We're talking about
Ben: yet.
Greg: like,
Ben: yet.
Evolutions a crafty motherfucker.
Emily: Yeah.
Greg: but also a, a bear doesn't have the
capability to like, you know, be rude.
Like they're just
Emily: true.
Greg: you know, they're, they're not
Ben: I don't, I feel like your bears got,
like, put 20 bears out there, like one
of them's gotta be a fucking asshole.
Tina: I mean, the
Emily: maybe to other bears.
Tina: rude.
Greg: Okay.
Ben: the blue never wears pants.
Greg: Tina, I was gonna ask you though
before we move on to the next scene
because you're the only one here
who's seen the extended cut and my
suspicion is that interrogation scene
where the guy's asking like, why are
your intentions with my daughter?
I suspected that in the longer uh,
director's cut, which I still wanna
see the vaccine goes on longer.
Am I correct
Tina: I don't remember
that scene going on longer.
My feeling about the director's cut
is that, I enjoyed watching it cuz I
was like, I would like to stay in this
world longer and even stay in these
like protracted tension scenes longer.
So like, it was for me for sure, probably
not for everyone, but actually my take on
the director's cut is that there are some
scenes of Christian and Danny arguing.
Greg: Yeah, that's what I've heard.
Tina: I think that if you're a writer
or any, any kind of creative really,
like, there's a stage where you're
kind of like telling yourself what the
story is or who the characters are, or
maybe like, you know, sketching, like
whatever it is that you're working on.
And like becoming like a better artist
means getting to the point where like,
okay, cool, actually this is the part
where I was just talking to myself.
And like, the project doesn't need
that now that it's, it's a part
of the process, but then once you
get there, you can take it out.
My feeling watching the extended cut,
especially those scenes and there's
a few more rituals that were kind
of interesting and, and fun and, and
disturbing, but like the movie tells
you everything that you need to know
about the dynamic between them and
we don't need them to have a beat.
So on the nose, and that tells me that Ari
Astor surrounds himself with collaborators
who are not just yes men who, or yes.
People who will actually tell him
like, you know, he's talked about how
this is a breakup movie and that he
wrote it when he was feeling emotional
about a breakup that he went through.
So you can imagine that like, and he
sort of like identifies with Danny
and you can imagine that a lot of
that was him kind of like getting
out some of his personal stuff and
Emily: Mm-hmm.
Tina: doesn't need it and the
movie's better without it.
That's my take.
Jeremy: I think like that sounds
like a lot of what is supposedly
cut out of hereditary as well.
There's a lot more, apparently,
conversations between the family.
The sort of things that we were like,
why didn't anybody talk in this movie?
Apparently, you know,
there was talking in there.
But you know, it's didn't change the
course of the movie and it was eventually
cut for, you know, the theatrical version.
I don't know if there's a director's
cut version of hereditary.
I haven't seen it.
Ben: That I would like to stay cause
hereditary, I very much quite a.
Emily: So, we're still at the dance.
And Christian is thinking about
fucking Maha and not super down.
Suddenly Danny magically speaks,
speaks Swedish and realizes that
she's the last one standing.
So hooray.
She's now the May Queen, even though
it's June Jazz hands, a lot of
Ben: Man, what drugs do I have
to take to learn a new language?
Is this
Emily: Um,
Ben: works?
Is
Emily: yeah, kinda, I mean,
you are addicted to it.
It does punish you.
Christian has given this the tea
and he's like, what's in this?
And many times people ask, Hey,
what's going on with this drug?
And the the Colts are like
stuff, you should take it.
Jeremy: don't worry about It
Tina: it's impressive.
Like, you know, this is not like
a twist, like an mite shalon twist
movie, but it is a movie that if
you want to watch it multiple times,
there's definitely stuff that you're
like, oh, that's what's happening.
And like I love where there's some sort
of like dramatic irony going on for you
now on the second watch where, you know,
things that some of the characters do,
but that the other characters don't.
And you were in the dark
about on the first watch.
Like it is pretty impressive that
every single person in this village
is hiding this dramatic secret.
And they're also, many of them are
also tripping balls and they're like
managing to not be like, Hey, hey,
hey, do you know what is so funny?
Emily: that's sweeten for you
Tina: By tomorrow you're
all gonna be dead.
Greg: a lot of people in this village are.
Are also children and children, I
don't know if you've met any, are
not good at keeping their mouth shut,
especially when they have a secret.
Emily: that's true.
But this non-communication and
like very ritualized communication.
I mean, it's a thing.
So, Christian is left in the dust
as we, the Gaslight ge keep cycle
has finally reached Girlboss.
And with the help of grooming drugs and
grief, Danny is all this stay so bad.
Maybe I could control plants.
But then they try to shove a
herring down her throat and and then
even worse try to feed her mark,
which is pretty gross honestly.
you know, with great power
comes great responsibility.
Yes.
On that table is Mark.
Danny has again swept unknowing
into more may queen shit.
I mean mid, I mean, June, I.
, whatever.
And they plant a steak.
And while Christian, not Mark, while
Christian has to trip all the way
to the ceremonial banging house, the
Coles is busted out the tassel shrouds.
And you know, that shit's getting real.
Not only have Danny and Christian
been separated, they have also been
both taken to a secondary location.
Christian has sex with
Mahan, a bed of flowers.
Greg: It's
Emily: So sorry.
So sorry.
Um, My,
Jeremy: help.
Emily: yes, so all the village
women help and sing and,
Jeremy: Very atmospheric.
You know,
Emily: so I was watching
Jeremy: Starting right here.
Emily: Yes, exactly.
there's this very beautiful aesthetic
shot where Mark like blunders into this
room after the tassel shroud, guys like,
give him some cool smoke or something.
And they're like, here have
all these other drugs in every
fourth or fire, water, air,
you know, fire nation attacked,
Ben: He is The drug
Jeremy: The smoke is to make him hard.
Let's, uh,
Emily: yes.
Jeremy: put that out there.
They're like, oh, smoke, smoke this.
It'll make you real hard.
Emily: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Then you open up on this, beautiful
scene of all of the village.
I mean, not all of the village
ladies, but most of the, the
older village matrons are there.
Maha is on the floor
surrounded with flowers.
And my friend who was watching
this, this with me, and I won't
name them because they said at
that moment, oh, like a salad.
Greg: Oh.
Oh no.
Jeremy: I'm gonna go ahead and say there's
no way that Christian tosses salad.
Emily: No.
Well, definitely not now.
Ben: has never gone down
on a woman in his life.
Emily: Absolutely not.
Greg: I, I, I mean, I'm pretty sure he
doesn't know where the clitoris is either.
Ben: Of course not.
Greg: I think that's why one of
the women in the village had to
like, literally help him have sex.
I'm not trying to make light of this,
but it does need to be reiterated here.
has not consented to this.
Emily: yes.
Absolutely not.
And I think the reason he was freaked
out is because the matriarch of
this village was like, you will
have to have pussy for dessert.
And he wasn't sure what that meant.
you know, we've already talked about
eating people and grooming and there's
a lot of like horrible atrocities that
are happening and Christian is there
and he is like, you know, having very
slow, unsure sex with Maho And um,
Jeremy: is moaning along with her in the.
Emily: everybody is kind of
moaning and doing a chant.
It's basically like you're having sex
with your girlfriend, and then her mom
comes in and sings to you and then holds
your hand and looks at you in the eye
and you're wasted outta your mind and
you're looking at your girlfriend's mom.
And so you know, your date's mom comes
into the room and is singing to you,
then her grandma comes and is like, oh,
are you having trouble finishing honey?
And then starts, you
know, pushing the butt.
Like this is a goddamn true, true train
and this is really, really fucked up.
Greg: You don't say.
Emily: I'd say I just wanted people to
see this in a particular perspective.
And I'm not saying that Christian a
deserves a lot of sympathy, but I also
am not saying that he deserves this kind
of hor, like this kind of existential
horror that we are in envisioning here.
I'm just saying like, there's
a lot of connotations.
Jeremy: Doing on pretty hard on Christian.
Uh, I think maybe
Christian deserves to die.
He does not deserve this though.
Emily: No.
He totally deserves to be a blood eagle.
Ben: oh yeah, I saw that
there like shocking.
I'm like, ah, I've seen Hannibal.
Um, Yeah, no, there's a whole thing
where like the, to the villagers
who like volunteered for this or
it's like, Hey, here's a tonic.
So you'll feel no pain.
That ends up being a big ole lie.
They
Tina: Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.
That's, that's, I, I definitely wanna
talk about that part cuz it's Imar too.
So that's sort of like
the end of I Mar's arc.
Jeremy: So, so
Emily: Yeah.
Jeremy: no afterglow.
Emily: No, after Chloe, he f
he has sex with Maha on the
bed of flowers, and then uh,
the
village woman watches saying,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Danny sees it after her merry carriage
ride and her trip turns bad again.
But
all of the other Mawes,
Jeremy: Gets to cry and
they all cry with her.
Emily: yeah, they cry with
her and not just with her.
They cry in tandem with her.
as she cries, they, they match her.
This like the sound that she's making.
And it's a really interesting situation.
Christian tries to Ali, he runs
naked into the midnight daylight.
He finds the remains of Cheaty and Simon
ceremonial arrange Ceremonially arranged
to feed the garden of the livestock.
And I think Simon is actually still alive.
His lungs are expanding
and contracting that
Jeremy: Yeah.
Simon is being used as a chicken
coop hung upside down with his eyes
replaced by flowers and his lungs,
in his body where they should be.
Emily: yeah,
the lungs, it's a Viking.
Ben: Hannibal Arts and Crafts project.
Emily: It is very Hannibal.
Could see
connections.
Jeremy: feel like Hannibal
would be like, is too rural.
I don't enjoy this.
Emily: Christian is knocked
out with paralysis powder and
awakens for the final ceremony.
Now Danny is dripped out the literal
pile of flora, and she now has to choose
sacrifice Christian or a local by lottery.
She chooses
Jeremy: too.
Bjorn
Emily: Yes.
Jeremy: not one.
Bjorn too.
Emily: The final reveal is that
like I, you know, everything that we
thought was happening is happening,
you know, they're all chosen to
be sacrifices for the most part.
The bodies of Simon Connie Cheaty the skin
full mark, which is basically Mark's skin
full of hay are all serene wheelbarrow in
sibly set around the Bill Cipher house.
Like, it's like the fucking.
Halloween costume exhibit.
An elder shows the village boys how to
sew Christian into a whole ass bear.
In Kamar and Oph come along to
be Sac Life sacrifices as well.
So good for them.
They're supposed to feel no pain
because they're supposed to drink
the, the essence of view tree,
but they, that doesn't work out.
Jeremy: I'm not sure of is, does
Ingmar have to be a sacrifice?
Because he chose the wrong horse in this.
Like he he chose the girl who
didn't become the make queen.
cuz cuz, uh, your boy p gets to
continue to live happily ever
after at the end of this movie.
Emily: Yeah, I, that's a, that's another
thing that I want to, I wanna hear
the forum's opinion about, because,
you know, if you're in a cult and
you're going out and you're trying
to find people and you're like, well,
90% sacrifice, 10% possible may queen
you know, 20% fucking possibilities
depending on how people feel.
Greg: Well, it, Joseph raised the question
of like, did he, did he look at Florence
Pugh and was like, this is a girl who has
a lot of endurance and is a great dancer.
Like,
Emily: and she's
heavily manipulatable
because of all
Ben: is that what?
That's the metric.
Like I need a
girl who
understands grief and can win a
Emily: I mean, they're obviously trying
to push her towards a make queen thing.
Like that's, that's not happenstance.
Like when there's three bitches left.
Her friend who she speaks Swedish to like
basically pushes the other girl over.
So they're like, oh, whoa,
you're the make queen.
What a co ink,
Tina: what I love about, , like I was
saying, the end of IG Mar's arc is that
he has a like sublime look on his face.
Like when you are raised in this
cult, you do believe that this is an
honor and you believe that you are
returning to nature, but the darkness
of being given something and told
that it will mean that you'll feel no
pain and that it is not a coincidence
that both of those guys are screaming
the second, and it's so well timed.
Like
Emily: Yeah.
Tina: the second that the
fire actually hits , you know,
Emily: Yeah.
Tina: shit.
And ha.
Have any of you seen St.
Mod
Jeremy: Yeah.
Greg: Fantastic
Emily: No, I haven't,
Tina: really good?
I won't spoil the ending, but I will
just say that there is, you know,
St.
Mon is
very, Well, yeah.
And it very much is a
movie about, I think it's
also an a 24 movie.
St mod, it's not a spoiler to say is a
movie about the like mortification of
the flesh for like religious purposes.
And there's a scene where a
character , performs this , ritual
that they've invented, in this like
devotional moment to their God.
And it's so like shockingly ambiguous,
whether you're experiencing that
person, like having this like ultimate
catharsis of like, yes, this is the
God gasm that I have been after.
Or that they're like, oh
shit, there is no God.
And like I am now just like self
emulating in like, and like experiencing
like horrible pain and death.
I feel like that is also what is
happening in a way it, like, when
it's way too late for there to be any
consequence for any of the characters.
It like undermines the sort of
spiritual like superiority of the cult
when they start screaming in pain.
Cause it's like, oh yeah, like any
other religious practice, this shit
is all made up by these psychopaths.
Emily: yeah.
Tina: I love it.
Emily: Huh.
Well,
Jeremy: along with the
screaming of these dudes
Emily: they, they scream along
with them and they rise and they,
you know, they express grief.
Jeremy: like professional mourners,
which is a job we need to bring back.
Tina: Yeah.
But that's, they also do that
when the, when the dude doesn't.
Die because he like pos off of the cliff
instead of starfish or doing a flip.
And he's screaming in agony and they
all instinctively start scr like this.
Whether it's pain, physical pain,
or emotional pain, like grief,
everybody has this practice that
is clearly so natural to them of
empathy and catharsis communally.
And that is both disturbing and weird.
And also, like, I would love if I could
like cherry pick , like harder rituals,
I would like there to be in our culture
a ritual of like, if I'm in pain, you're
in pain and we're gonna get through this
together instead of stuffing it away.
And then it just like results
in like panic attacks that
we have to hide in airport.
Greg: Well, that's one I think the things
that this movie does so effectively,
it's depiction of, cults and, and one
of the things that is very comparable
to the original wickerman too, where
it's like it shows you the appeal.
I'm really fascinated by cults.
I've watched a lot of documentaries about
different cults and read a read about it.
And one thing that I saw in the, heavens
Gate documentary that's on, that's on H B
O heavens Gate, for those who don't know
was the group that a great deal of them.
Ritualistically killed themselves
because they believe they were
being taken up to this heaven planet
by aliens or something like that.
Emily: the ha Pop Comet came through
in the nineties and they believed
that it, was a spaceship that was
going to take them to sci-fi Heaven.
Greg: yeah, I,
I, the details of this particular cult
don't, don't really matter for what
I'm about to say, but, there was a
psychologist or something like that
who is an expert on Colts, who is a
talking head and this documentary,
that's something I never for, about
how you know, we all look at cults and
the people in cults, and we think to
ourselves, well, that can never be me.
And the, the psychologist or whoever
it was, was like, I'm telling you, it
doesn't matter how educated you are.
It doesn't matter how smart you are.
It doesn't matter how well off you are.
Anybody if they're caught.
At the right place, at the
right moment of their lives is
vulnerable to being part of a cult.
And that is something we see so distinctly
with Danny, she lost her entire family.
And the the one kind of anchor she has
left, which is , her boyfriend, who, you
know, we presumably that, Oh, oh yeah.
They say they've been together
for three years, right?
Four years.
Yes.
You know, this guy who's supposed to
love her and she's supposed to love,
is not sufficiently caring for her.
And this simple act of empathy,
performative as it may be, is enough
to kind of sow the seeds of her being
like, oh, I'll be in this murder
suicide cult for the rest of my life,
because that's what I need right now.
I need a family, I need, I need support.
Emily: Yeah.
And that's, that's specifically
what they're trying to do.
I mean, pele's little speech about,
you know, does Christian hold you,
you know, we're all family here.
And he does essentially press himself
and his experience on hers, right?
He's not listening to her.
Instead of listening to her, he's
saying, I know what you need.
Because I think that what I, what
I went through is just as if not
more valid than what you went
through is the, connotation there.
And I've seen that in movies a lot
just depicted as something positive.
But p has been there the entire time
that Christian has been trying to
figure out how to break up with Danny.
and Pale is
Observing
this.
Ben: such a bad relationship
between them.
Emily: Yeah.
Greg: Jack, Jack Rainer is
the actor who plays Christian.
Right.
It's such aous performance that in the
early stages of the movie he does look
so genuinely pained that like, I don't
know how to break up with this girl.
I, I don't know if I want
to break up with this girl.
Ben: It is really hard.
Greg: Yeah,
Ben: what is the right way to
break up with someone whose
entire family has just died?
Greg: yeah.
It, it, it, like, we
don't feel worse for him
than we do for Danny.
But,
Ben: Like I genuinely don't
know how you uh, like what you,
what's the right way to do that?
Greg: I
Ben: the solution isn't staying the
staying in a bad relationship forever,
Emily: and then
Jeremy: And just continue to treat her
like
shit.
Ben: but I don't know what the,
I truly don't know what the
Emily: Yeah.
Greg: but like, as the movie continues,
we learned that like, this is, much
more one-sided than we were initially
led to believe, as far as who is
the bad person in the relationship.
But I, we really do feel
for the guy at first.
Jeremy: Yeah.
I mean, I, I really think it is a credit
to Transformer's age of extinctions, Jack
Rainer, that he puts in this performance
that you, you feel so bad for this guy.
I,
Ben: Do, do you think Christian
also has his state's age of consent
laws written down on a card?
He keeps in his wallet at all times like
he does in Transformers Age of Extinction.
Emily: not know that about that film.
I think Mark has that
Ben: That's a thing that
happens in a Transformers movie.
Greg: Wait,
I, I'm, I'm, confused.
What, what are what?
Emily: Look,
Ben: Jack CRA's in Transformers, where
he is dating Mark Wahlberg's daughter,
and Mark Wahlberg is like, what the fuck?
She's underage.
You should go to jail.
And he is like, no, it's legal.
See?
And then he straight up pulls out
like the state's legal statute
on the age of consent that he
keeps laminated in his wallet.
Jeremy: Michael Bay, just, he,
he does what he knows, man.
Emily: I feel like
we should, someone should press charges
I should also mention that the movie
is done now and Danny got to do a
smile and this is the only time in
the movie I think that she ever smiled
Jeremy: Yep.
Emily: end when she was watching
her boyfriend being burnt
to crisp in a big bear suit.
Greg: Did we talk about the part where
they're explaining everything that's going
on and they get to Christian, the bear
suit and they talk about how contemptible
the bear is, it's just really funny
Ben: I liked at the beginning when they
got the bear in the cage and they're
just like, are we gonna ignore the bear?
And they're like, it's a bear.
What's there to say?
And then we just don't address it
until the very end of the movie.
Emily: yeah.
Tina: I mean this, the ending the smile
is, is one of the all
time endings, just like
instant,
Ben: The smile is
Emily: Yeah.
Jeremy: A beautiful ending.
This, this whole, uh, triangle,
pyramid burning as she is sitting
there watching it being emulated and
everybody is chanting, and the violins
have really just like reached the
peak and she's just like, smiling for
the first time, happy all this shit.
Greg: Yeah,
Ben: flowers and smiling.
It's such an iconic image.
Greg: 2 things about that.
One n y c C 21, I saw a lot of
women cosplaying as Danny in her
May Queen dress, and it was amazing.
Emily: A lot of piles of flowers.
Greg: Oh my God, it, was incredible.
I, I, I saw at least a few of them and
it, like, you know, EV every once in
a while I see a good cosplay, like,
oh, go up to someone and be like,
oh, hey, like, that's really cool.
But like, I was just so in awe that
I just kinda had to keep like a
respectful distance, like she is the
make queen, like I am not worthy.
You know, I saw this movie like I said
before uh, at uh, Nighthawk Cinema
in, in Williamsburg uh, with a good
friend of mine, a male friend, and
there, there were these two women
seated next to us, and it was so price.
How during the entire final sequence
of the movie they were just kind of
like, I, you know, I, I wish this
wasn't a purely auditory medium, so I
could show you kind of like how they
were just silently like Yes, yes.
Like pumping their arms.
and, and like every once in a while
throughout the movie, you know, when
Christian would do something shitty, I'd
look to them and, and see the disgust on
their face God bless these women, they
were having the time of their lives.
Emily: Good.
Jeremy: So, you know, we did
have one question from Twitter.
Our buddy Eugenia asked if we thought that
PE invited Danny on the trip because she
was alone and easier for him to disappear.
Not much investigation, or if he
was, had some sort of altruistic
reasons or, you know, thought he was,
thought she was a kindred spirit.
I feel like we've kind of picked
all of those answers, except
that she's easy to disappear.
Like she seems specifically
targeted by him.
Ben: Yeah, ease of disappearance
doesn't seem like a factor.
Greg: Yeah.
I, I, he very clearly wanted her
romantically, or, I, I was gonna
say, or at least sexually, but
no, I, I think he actually did
have romantic feelings for her.
Tina: to what Greg was talking
about earlier with cults.
How everyone is susceptible to
them in the same way that we're
all susceptible to con artists.
Like the techniques that con artists
and cults use have a lot of parallels
with interpersonal abuse and like, the
reason that there are so many stories
about, you know, on the scale of
interpersonal abuse to group dynamics,
to, larger death cults like capitalism.
They all, work in similar ways
that take advantage in the truest
sense of the word of human nature.
And it is a classic technique to
look for somebody who has no one
or that you perceive to have no one
and then to further isolate them.
I think that Emily is right
on with the word grooming.
Pelee sees her as vulnerable and that,
that narrative kind of undermines the
good for her meme like element to this.
But I think, again, that is what I
love the most about this movie is the
ambiguity where I feel simultaneously,
like what has happened for Danny is awful.
She has been seduced by a death cult,
but also the society and culture that
she was in before, and the community of
friends that she had was failing her.
In a vacuum her emotional arc is one of.
Catharsis and finding belonging
and, unlearning all of those moments
where she's like, oh, I'm sorry.
it's my fault that my boyfriend forgot my
birthday because I forgot to remind him.
Or like, I don't wanna be a mood killer,
so I'll take the mushrooms now when
every fiber of my being is telling me
that the set and setting is not right.
And like all of the ways that she's
constantly like apologizing for
existing, like she does actually
transform and conquer that.
So, I don't know, maybe the movie
also seduces us using those cults
techniques of, of like those cinematic
techniques to like make us feel
like this is a triumphant and happy
ending when like, objectively what
these people have done is mortifying.
Emily: I definitely agree that there
is a sort of punchline of like where
she is now in the crazy murder cult was
better where than where she was before,
which was normal society, quote unquote.
You know, like her group of
friends were so shitty that, this
vertical was honestly better.
I mean, they did listen
to her a little bit.
They listened to her a lot more
than fucking Christian did.
And I think that that is pretty
valuable in terms of discussing how
grief can be manipulated that way.
Because people will go through
really awful shit and then , they
will settle for something that is
slightly less awful because it feels
like a, a universe greater than what
they were going through, you know?
And that is, one of the classic
techniques of con and indoctrination.
The communal thing can, is also
like a double-edged sword in
a way, because sometimes you
really do need to be by yourself.
And, in this movie, a lot of the
personal experiences were being dismissed.
But, like you said, Tina like you,
you can see that they're acting weird.
You know, you see there's some
red flags, but for the most part,
things just seem kind of bucolic.
Tina: Well, and this is also like what
they've signed up for, which is part of
the genius of the conceit of the movie.
Not only are they visitors, but
Emily: yeah,
Tina: anthropology students.
So
like
that
Ben: Tuesday.
Emily: do any research whatsoever.
Tina: Well, they're
Greg: Yeah.
Yeah.
Emily: Yes.
Jeremy: mean, I think they all, I,
I think it's a too, too good of an
offer to resist for them, right?
Because they have this friend who
is part of a weird, like cult group
that like, They would not have
access to if they did not know him.
And they're like, we are gonna be
the guys to break this wide open.
Like, I'm gonna be the guy to write
this paper that everybody's going to
talk about for the next a hundred years.
You know, that's, that's
gonna be the thing.
And it's, it's too good of
an offer for them to pass up.
Tina: Oh, yeah.
I mean, they blatantly have
this colonialist impulse and
like what does PayWay say?
Um, Like, oh, well you're an American,
so just jam yourself right in there.
Like,
Emily: yeah.
It's a Mark
Greg: Yeah.
I don't think this is like the main
theme of the movie, but the exploration
of American attitudes towards
different cultures is definitely
one that's interesting to think
about in the context of this movie.
Cause it's like, Sweden is not you know,
a country that has been oppressed, I would
say, but but still, like, they're going
into this commune with the attitude that
like almost like they're going into a zoo,
Emily: Yes.
Greg: oh
yeah, yeah.
Emily: they're like, oh, how?
This is so cute.
Like, look at all their little hats, you
Tina: Well, it's a, it, I mean, it's a,
and it's a very, it's a clever conceit
to make it Sweden and to make this,
as many people have joked about, like
a horror movie about white people.
Like, this movie has so much on its
mind and so many like aesthetics that
it wants to explore that like, having it
be like we were talking about punching
up and punching down earlier, right?
This is a real like punching
across movie, right?
This is like white on white violence
,
Jeremy: the fact that they, they
make the lead anthropologist a black
American man is, is like brilliant
in a very subtle kind of way.
Greg: Well, he, he, he's
not, he's not just a leader.
He's the only one who actually
like, has any kind of integrity.
And I'm not saying that makes him like a
hero or anything in the context of this
movie, but he actually wants to learn.
Like he takes the
education aspect seriously.
Tina: Fucking respect them.
And like even he keeps asking
like, can I take pictures?
And it occurred to me on this last
re-watch that I did for this pod
that he keeps asking if he can take
pictures and PayWay keeps saying like,
discreetly, and it that I realized
that the reason that he lets him even
take discreet pictures is that he
knows that phone is not leaving here.
So he's real.
It's just like the
pageantry of like, oh yeah.
Like, we'll let you like, do
some of your documentation.
But like if they thought that was
actually ever going to leave the place,
they wouldn't have let him do it at all.
Greg: Yeah.
I don't think, it's so much of
like a, a black versus white
thing as an American versus like
any culture that's not American,
Tina: Yeah.
But this movie would've been so different.
This movie would've been like
Cannibal Holocaust or Green Inferno.
If they
Greg: Yeah.
Tina: To a like isolated culture of
like quote unquote primitive Savages
Greg: but, but, but even like, the
fact that like everyone in this
village speaks English and it's
such a cringey thing as an American.
Emily: watching Austin Powers,
Tina: Oh my God.
Ben: I love that they got that
they're watching Austin powers.
That was great.
I, wanna see that like mystery.
I wanna see that commentary track
of like the Swedish Deaf Villages
Commentary, mystery Science
Theater over Austin Powers.
Greg: Well, what, I was gonna say is
like, as an American one of the things
that like I'm really embarrassed about
is that I can only speak one language,
which obviously is English and just
that whole thing of I know so much less.
And, and like, I, I try to be
more worldly than most Americans.
I think.
I don't mean to like toot my
own horn too much, but like I,
you know, I'm pretty well-read.
You know, I, I try to educate
myself, but I will never.
Know as much about the rest of the
world as the rest of the world knows
about America and American culture.
It's just that that whole kind of
like, ugly Americans, Americans
abroad sort of theme does resonate.
Because again, like I'm not saying
this as someone who thinks I'm
above those kinds of tendencies.
I've been raised in this culture and
I, there's just a whole lot of stuff
about the rest of, I'm extraordinarily
ignorant about the ways that the rest
Emily: Everyone.
Greg: world is not.
Emily: Yeah.
And everyone has blind spots,
but also like American education-
Tina: Yeah, you guys, I didn't learn
how to sew, paralyzed human into
any animals when I was growing up.
I mean, I also
didn't go to
Ben: Well
that's because, uh,
that's the problem with
the education cuts.
They cut home ec from, from school.
Now, whole generations don't know
how to sew people into bears.
Emily: Separate from Waldorf.
I do want to talk about the
depiction of disability in this
movie, specifically the Oracle
Tina: Yes, we gotta talk.
Emily: because this was an issue
that I had with Hereditary, which was
the sort of weird fetishization of
disability where, Charlie in Hereditary
was very clearly neurodivergent.
And, she was this sort of magical
being that was interpreting
like weird shit around her.
It's cutting off the heads of, of
dead pigeons and stuff like that.
And while I think you know,
she's an interesting character.
I feel like the f the way she was
treated was also a bit problematic.
And in this movie, basically like
making someone up to look like
they're inbred and then making them
the magical, homicidal skin wearing
like Oracle didn't sit well with me.
How about y'all?
Tina: Not a good look.
Ben: and also like, it
doesn't go anywhere.
Like it's not a relevant part of it.
What remind me of a hereditary
was how there's like, oh, there's
the demonn the king that they're
with summoning, and also the demon
king wants the right gender body.
And it's like, it's like, Ari
Aster just can't stop himself.
Like he just keeps throwing in.
Just like one more thing
than the movie can handle.
Greg: Yeah, that's, that's
hard to disagree with that.
It's like there's some themes
in both of these ER movies are
handled extraordinarily, and then
it's like, there's, things like
the disability stuff where it's
like, okay, I could tell you were.
Trying to do a thing, but you were way
too busy doing all these other things.
So the disability thing just is really
half baked and because it's half baked,
it's of offensive.
Emily: Yes,
Tina: we to, like add to the ableism
counts against this movie, the
portrait of Danny's sister as bipolar.
They explicitly say that she's bipolar.
And this one is a little
bit more complicated.
The Oracle stuff, like just cut it out.
Like the movie doesn't, need it.
There is of creepy shit going on.
You really don't need
Greg: Well, I, will say we don't
need the disability stuff, but
I do think the incest stuff
thematically needs to be kept.
Tina: totally.
The
yeah,
but the, the, but the magical inbred
deformed face thing is to your point, is
not necessary to the, the incest point.
And that, the bipolar sister, acting
out the worst fear of people who love
someone who is neurodivergent in any way.
I think because it's more grounded.
Realism.
I'm less offended by it, and there's
like a lot of emotional resonance and
context to it in the relationship.
But you've gotta handle when you, when
there's a trope that literally associates
a type of person, like for example, a
bipolar person with like murder suicide.
You gotta handle that carefully.
And I don't know, what
do you, what do you all
Greg: Yeah.
Tina: the movie handled that?
Greg: I'm, I'm not bipolar, but I am
neuro divergent and, and look like, just
to be clear of where I'm coming from
on this, like, I was once a decade ago
uh, hospitalized for suicidal ideation.
So I take this stuff very seriously.
So, so I'm not just rushing it
off as like, oh, I'm not offended.
It's more that Again, I feel like Ari
asked her was approaching exploring
a theme, and I'm more just like, oh,
there's kind of a missed opportunity
there to have done something
more substantial with that theme.
Jeremy: Yeah.
I mean, I'm, I'm going to differ pretty
hard on this because I think the thing
that I honestly, I'm a little uh,
ashamed because the thing is, I just.
Kind of forgot about it because
it's buried so early in that
movie, under so much other shit
that happens in this movie.
That like, as I was watching it, it
really bothered me because I know,
I mean, not to spend too much time
tooting my own horn, but like, I pretty
famously wrote a comic about bipolar
disorder and it was a superhero comic.
Greg: yeah.
Yeah.
Ben: was available.
Now
Jeremy: So,
Greg: than
mid-summer.
Jeremy: yeah.
Uh, But in some ways, yes uh, in, in
some ways not so much because I think
one of the things I was very careful to
do in that story is to consult people
who had bipolar disorder talk to people
who were familiar with it from being
psychologists, talk to people who, you
know, had been caretakers for people
in, you know, in their family and in
friend group who had bipolar disorder.
And that is a hundred percent like this
is the thing that, you know, people
are afraid of from every perspective
is, is being boiled down to just that.
And that is literally all we know
about Danny's sister, is that she is
bipolar and commits a murder suicide.
At the beginning of this movie,
she has given no other personality.
She is never alive on screen.
she is nothing but a disorder.
And that is
a problem like
capital P problem.
Greg: great points, Jeremy.
Jeremy: Yeah.
And like, like the other disability
in this movie, it is entirely
superfluous to the block.
They do not go into bipolar disorder.
They do not have a conversation.
You know, you could very easily make
it important to the plot by having
Florence Pugh say, oh, I also may,
you know, have this same thing.
I am worried about myself in that respect.
You know, this is something that
she is very concerned about, but
it's not, it's not handled that way.
It's not it's not really plot
relevant other than like, as
a thing to jump off the plot.
Which as you know, as he said himself,
is not a movie about disability.
It's a movie about breakups.
And it's very like, kind
of flippant about that.
And like, I do think that that is bad.
Like, I, I do think that
is a bad way to handle it.
That is a bad way to throw it
in there and not discuss it.
It is certainly something that somebody
watching this movie who is having
that struggle themselves, is going
to see themselves represented in the
harshest possible light in a way that,
you know, is, is unpleasant and bad.
Tina: and also in a, in a world
where we don't have a lot of movies
with other or, or any kind of like,
different kinds of representations
of people who are bipolar, right?
Like that's, that's what a lot of these
conversations come down to, right?
Is like if you, if you know that you're
giving a character a specific trait or
identity, and you're not being mindful
of the ways or lack of ways that people
with that trait or identity are identified
or, or are represented, I should say,
like more broadly in the culture, then
you I, you have a responsibility to
like be accountable to that choice.
Emily: absolutely.
Jeremy: And I,
I,
Emily: why define it as such?
If you're not going to take.
Jeremy: yeah, I think for me it was,
it was very much a case of not to get
too far into fucking Marvel continuity
at this point, but like, the character
who's father is Hank Pi, who is
early in Marvel continuity, sort of
established as somebody who has sort
of generic mental illness that is
much later discussed as being bipolar.
And like the, the mission for me
was like, this is something that is
genetic and I wanted to specifically
play against, type with this story.
And, you know, show somebody who has,
who's dealing with bipolar disorder, who
is a smart, happy, intelligent person
who you wouldn't necessarily see them
and think this person is struggling.
And that like, you know, it isn't,
that isn't the way any mental disorder
works is that, you know, it only
affects certain types of people
that are obviously having issues.
And like this movie, I think
gets off easy because it just
throws it in there and moves on.
Emily: Yeah.
, Jeremy: I don't know which
would be better, honestly.
You know, just doing it poorly and
making it central or just doing
it poorly and moving on before
anybody really has time to clock it.
but,
Emily: I think if they, if they, get
rid of the definition whatsoever,
and, you know, define the char,
the character is just having a
crisis, you know, you don't, you
Tina: That's an interesting
question to the Hank Pi of it all.
Like, it's sort of an open question that
I feel like we should all be thinking
about is like, I think that the older,
the old trope would've been unspecified
mental illness or like, she's crazy
and my guess would be that Ri asked
her was like, oh, well we're sort
of more aware of different diagnoses
now, so I'm going to be more specific.
And like that maybe, I don't know,
but that maybe his like intention, I'm
analyzing this to sort of try to get to
the root of how we can all do better.
You know, like if his intention is
to be more specific in order to be
more realistic, then like, yeah.
We need to think about the fact
that then there are consequences
to being more specific.
Jeremy: I mean, not to be, not, not
to overblow this, but it really.
in this case isn't any better than if
they were like, oh yeah, her sister
committed suicide and killed her
parents because she got into Islam.
Like, that's the same level of
like sensitive treatment that
they're giving bipolar disorder in.
This is like implying that, this one
thing that they're dealing with is enough
to like, you know, is, is the only thing
that it takes, cuz not, not everybody
whose bipolar experiences it the same way.
Not everybody
who's bipolar is at any point violent.
Most people are not.
And they're
much more likely to hurt themselves
than to wire up a whole gas
hose from the garage, from the
car to their parents' bedroom.
Like, that's very premeditated like that,
you know, even if somebody is having a,
a, you know, manic episode and they, you
know, have a lot of energy that's still
lot of deciding to kill your parents.
Emily: yes.
Greg: I always forget about the fact
that she killed her parents too.
And I think that really does changed
the conversation pretty significantly.
Because
yeah, I
mean,
Mo
Jeremy: even necessary, is
it necessary for her to have
killed herself and her parents?
I mean, I, it's important I think
to the pla that Florence Pugh is
alone and doesn't have anybody
but this shitty boyfriend and her
shitty friends to fall back on.
But parents can already be dead.
Ask Disney like
it happens.
Emily: Talk about tropes if we're
Jeremy: They don't have to die on screen.
They can just be dead.
Ben: I think he very much wanted
like total tragedy and isolation to
start like just start the movie on.
Super shocking.
Jeremy: no
question
Emily: traumas is
Jeremy: no question that
Ari asked her really likes
exploring extreme trauma.
Like the, all the shit that goes down
when the sister dies in hereditary
is way over the fucking top.
She can just die of an allergic
reaction people do every day.
But they had to make it like
all of this shit together.
Which, you know, in that, in
that movie is less horrible
because like it's all his fault.
In the end, you know, it,
it is a problem with him.
Whereas this is like the
character of Florence Pew's.
Sister of, of Danny's sister
doesn't have any screen time.
She
Emily: Yeah.
Jeremy: illness that is
dragging down her family.
Tina: Mm-hmm.
Emily: and I think that's one of those
things where you don't have to be, I mean,
if it is in this particular case, when you
have something that is part, essentially
part of the backstory of the character
that is not totally explored, you know,
if they don't have time to talk about
bipolar, then they shouldn't name it.
I think if we're gonna make
things realistic, then we
should put in the effort.
If we're gonna talk about bipolar in a.
, we should at least do as much work
researching that definition and, paying
respects to that definition as we do
making the fucking entire village.
Tina: Good call.
Ben: Yep.
Yep.
Emily: I, Me too.
Um,
Ben: it's Emporium element.
I mean, this movie is, let's see,
it, it's got its relationship
with mental illness for sure.
Emily: yeah,
Ben: yeah.
So we have talked this movie from
I think, just about every angle.
Emily: the end.
Ben: yeah.
Do, do we recommend it?
Do y'all recommend mid.
Greg: Yes.
Emily: Yeah,
Greg: mu much like, what I said
uh, what I think we all said in
one way or another about Aary.
Check yourself.
Like, don't watch it if you're not in uh,
the state of mind where you could handle
some really disturbing themes and imagery.
It's a really strong horror movie.
And, and just a good movie in general.
And I, I also want to add, because we
haven't talked about this a whole lot,
if you're the kind of person who is
particularly averse to jump scares,
there are no jump scares in this movie.
That does not mean, it's not scary though,
Emily: yeah,
Ben: to see some people not have faces.
Emily: If
you're not, it's
Greg: yeah.
I am not saying
Ben: or be only face it.
It's either no face or or only face.
Either way, the ratio of face
to not face is way off for a
lot of people in this movie.
Emily: Yeah.
Don't, do what the people in this
movie did to Danny, which is,
not tell em anything about it.
Greg: Just
Emily: Yeah.
You don't have to
spoil it.
Greg: Just, just, just be
nicer to each other, everyone.
Emily: cool.
Keep your grades up.
Jeremy: Motto of this
movie, just be fucking cool.
Okay.
Ben: think the moral of the story is
that you take shrooms and wins and
win a danceathon, just go with it.
Emily: oh, I don't know if that's it.
if you take Champs and win Danceathon,
make sure you were able to consent.
That's well,
Jeremy: make sure people are
able to consent to Dance Thrones.
That's,
Emily: Yes.
If, wait, if you're going somewhere
where there are shrooms and Danson's.
Danceathon.
Anyway, I'm sorry.
This joke is, it's dead now.
Ben: I was gonna say, can you
give consent to being set on fire?
But two of those guys did consent
to being set on fire, so I guess,
Tina: thought it wasn't gonna
hurt and they were wrong.
Ben: yeah, they were wrong.
Greg: Yeah.
Jeremy: Yeah.
I, I don't, I have no idea whether I
would recommend this movie to anybody.
I just kinda, you know, it, it's one
of those things that maybe you just
chuck a DVD in the room and run away.
Like if, if, if they're foolish enough
to put it on, then it's their own fault.
No, it's just like, it is a lot of
reasons to, and not to, because like,
it is brilliantly made visual film.
There are a lot of interesting things
here, but then a lot of those interesting
things are not explored satisfactorily.
Much like hereditary.
I mean, that could have done, you
know, if they were going to add an
extra half hour to the movie, it
shouldn't be the two of them arguing.
It should be them actually filling
in some of the gaps of, of things.
But Ari Astra seemed determined
to get to that trauma in the
first 10 minutes of this movie.
You know, I, I guess people
were like hereditary.
The
Ben: Good.
Jeremy: stuff doesn't
start happening fast.
Ben: Ari Aser was eating
none of his vegetables.
He just wanted to get straight to dessert.
Emily: Well, they're salad.
Ben: that's
Jeremy: Nobody eats it.
Tina: I mean, in Europe
you have salad for
Emily: Yeah, you do have
salad before dessert.
Ben: Look, this might defy.
the artistic vision and the will
of any filmmaker, but uh, you know,
maybe don't be afraid to embrace that.
Uh, 1.25 playback speed on this one.
Emily: She was the salad
and he was the cheese.
Jeremy: Okay.
Uh, Recommendations.
Emily, do you have anything
to recommend on this one?
Emily: I do, if you want this movie,
but divided into three separate parts.
Insomnia is great.
And it's about the midnight
sun and going nuts.
And that's a, that's a good one.
Check out the musical styling of Hyung.
They're an explicitly inclusive
nor, or well, they're Nordic.
Jeremy: I'm looking at this list
and this third one is wild Emily.
Emily: yes.
, hi.
Long is Nordic.
They do bring out the tassel shrouds,
but , they're not about eugenics
and they put on banging live show
and their videos are really cool.
It's a lot of people
singing and wearing antlers.
It's
Ben: no eugenics.
You say
Emily: no, EU.
Ben: like, not
even, just a little bit of eugenics
to make a weird Oracle kid.
Emily: Nope, none of that.
None of that.
Ben: Well hot diggity dog
Emily: every show that they do, they
basically have an opening ceremony,
which is like, Hey, we're not racist.
So there's that.
Jeremy: Be fucking cool.
Emily: Yeah.
Ben: That's great.
The ceremonial, we are not racist Torch.
Emily: yes.
They actually do fire dancing.
There was a part in the
live show or the, okay.
Okay.
Anyway this topless chick
dancing with outdoors that are on
fire, it's pretty fucking cool.
Anyway
Ben: Hell yeah,
Emily: My third recommendation is if
you like weird Nordic shit and you like
cottage core and you don't want any
murder, just watch Moonman or read it.
Jeremy: Ben, what have you got?
Ben: If you want another movie
about college students having a
transformative adventure across Europe,
then check out 2000 fours Euro trip.
Jeremy: How did I know
that's where that was going?
Emily: Oh God.
Greg: Oh God.
Ben: a pal pie.
Now
Jeremy: Uh, Greg, you
got a recommendation?
Greg: So if, if you want a movie that
kind of does for male, like platonic
friendship what hereditary does for
heterosexual romantic relationships
there's a movie called The Ritual, which
I believe is a Netflix original, so you
should be able to find out on Netflix
about, yeah, it, it's And, and it, it's
also set in the Swedish wilderness.
Very briefly, it is about a group
of British friends who are in kind
of like early middle age who go
on a hiking trip in the Swedish
wilderness together following uh,
the murder of one of their friends.
And I won't spoil what happens next.
Obviously, it's very spooky.
There's some incredible creature design.
Um, I I,
Jeremy: to that movie.
Greg: oh my God, it's very, very scary.
It's by the same director who, whose name
I should have looked this up earlier.
I, I forgot his name at the moment,
but he also directed the movie
The Night House, which some you
and I have seen.
That's very good.
Ben: That's in the same cinematic
universe as the lake house and
house of a thousand knives, right?
Greg: Sure why not.
He, he also most recently
directed the Hellrazor remake,
which
Ben: No, I
Emily: Yeah.
Yeah.
Greg: you.
yeah,
yeah,
Ben: that Hellraiser remake.
I just assume we'll cover
it on this show eventually.
Jeremy: Pride Baby.
Greg: yeah.
Ben: yeah.
Baby.
Greg: very talented director.
But just moody, just you, good
old fashioned guys getting
lost in the woods and spooky
things happen, kinda movie while
Emily: good.
It's good.
I liked it.
Ben: movies and in real life.
Greg: Yes,
Emily: Stay out of the forest.
It's out.
Jeremy: Tina, did you have
a recommendation for this?
Tina: Yes.
So I too am very interested in cults.
My parents actually met and
conceived me in a cult true story.
So, one thing that I wanna recommend
actually that is about cults, but
specifically about hereditary and Zamar
to sort of round out this series, a
little bit of recommended reading is
this piece by my friend Sophie Lewis
that was in Commune Magazine, but you
can read it online at Commune Mag.
It's an essay called The
Satanic Death Cult Is Real.
And it's basically like an
analysis of like the horror of
the family in these two movies.
Love that piece.
And then for people who are interested
in cults the nib, which is a wonderful
political comics website and publisher
did this anthology called American Cult,
a Graphic history of religious cults in
America from the Colonial era to today.
It is incredible and stellar and like
you'll discover so many great comics.
Writers and artists and like you will
just discover all kinds of horrific
shit about about Colts in America.
So I can't recommend
that one highly enough.
And then the last thing that I wanna say
is that I'm obviously so obsessed with
Colts and, and love MIT somar so much.
That when my friend Steve Wons
who is a epic legendary comic book
Letterer started a new publishing
company last year called Dead Sky.
And he asked me to pitch something.
So I actually pitched a story about
a dyke detective who specializes
in rescuing and deprogramming
people who have been in cults, cuz
she herself was raised in a cult.
And that is coming out this
year it's called De Prague.
And
Ben: that sounds awesome.
Greg: badass.
Tina: Lisa Sterl is, doing the
art, and Danny is doing the covers.
And it's an amazing
team.
And,
Ben: so good.
Tina: So yeah, if you are, if
you're listening to this and wanna
know what sort of deranged things
are going on in my mind with these
themes you should check out deep.
Ben: This, this is amazing.
I, I, I need this comic.
Shut up and take my money.
Jeremy: Okay.
So I wanted to recommend something
uh, that we have definitely
mentioned on here before.
But it's gotten bigger and it's
a bit important at the moment.
It's a thing that's got uh,
demons, it's got gay witches, it's
got folk core, it's got monster
ladies, and it's even got Jack, you
know, Jack from all those fables.
Cuz it's old Gods of Appalachia.
If
you guys haven't listened to it yet.
There are
Tina: definitely thought you
were gonna say sondheim's into
the woods, but that's okay.
Keep going.
Emily: I was gonna say that.
Owl House
Jeremy: there are now, three complete
seasons of Old Gods, of Appalachia
by our, our friends Steven Cam.
And they are going on sale for their
first live tour as we're recording this.
So you should find out if they're
gonna come near you and go see them
because this is their first time out.
They're really just like testing the
waters after having done a couple of
local shows here in the, you know,
Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia area.
They're trying to get out there and, and
do this thing, and they do all the things
that we talk about needing horror to do.
And they do it in an audio medium.
And they're incredible.
They've got incredible music,
they've got incredible stories.
Um, it's a great, yeah,
incredible, fantastic people.
Emily: already have four tickets, baby.
Tina: Cool.
Jeremy: Yeah.
So, uh, check it out.
If you're not listening to
the podcast, listen to that.
If you haven't checked out to see if
they're coming near you during their
tour, definitely go check it out
cause it is gonna be a great time.
I think that's it for us.
Tina, did you wanna let people
know where they can find more
about you and what you do online?
Tina: Yeah, my website is tina horn.net.
That's t i n a h o r n.
I'm on Twitter and Instagram at Tina
horns ass, or at Tina Horn Sass.
And my podcast is, why
are people into that?
I'm adapting that into
a book right now too.
And Safe Sex is my science fiction
sex rebel comic that has two volumes
out that you can either buy directly
from me on my website or wherever fine
comics or, and mediocre comics are
sold or taken out from the library.
And yeah, I do a bunch of stuff.
So come, come find me on the internet.
And I love doing this podcast.
Thanks for having me.
Jeremy: We're so glad to have you.
It's been a ball.
And Greg let people know where
they can find out more about
you and your work online.
Greg: Sure.
Well, first of all, I just wanna
echo something that, that Tina said.
I really do love this podcast.
I was a fan long before I started
uh, becoming an occasional guest.
Like literally I heard the premise and
saw that like the people involved with
the first episode and like, listened.
Like, I don't know about day
one, but probably like month one,
.
But so, so, so thank you.
Thank you again anytime.
Ben: She's already blush.
Greg: Aw.
Emily: I'm usually blushing, but
Ben: Well, that, that,
Emily: than usual.
Ben: seriously means the world.
Like we love having
Emily: Yeah.
Thank you.
Ben: and this has been
a blast of an episode.
Greg: it's, my pleasure.
But Farth, where you can find me I, I am
still currently on a temporary freelancing
hiatus as I continue to juggle a day job.
And if you know anything about
trying to find an apartment
in New York is absolute hell.
And so I'm not , working on
anything new freelance wise
until I've got that all settled.
Jeremy: I've never been there, but I've
seen at least 20 sitcom episodes about it.
Greg: Yeah.
It, it's, a nightmare.
But please send me good vibes.
But anyway I am I am on
Twitter at Greg Silver.
I'm also on Instagram at Greg Silver.
That's silver with like silver,
but with a b rather than a B.
And my byline is usually
Gregory Paul Silver.
I, one thing specifically I'd like to
plug that I've written in the past that
I want to highlight for fans this podcast
is so I've got a column at comic speed.com
called Silver Linings where I write about
comics and pop culture related stuff.
You know, it, it's, it's a humor column.
We have fun there.
But October, 2021, I did a series of
horror essays and I, for the month of
October, I called it Silver Bullets.
So if you are a fan of this
podcast specifically there are
four essays that I wrote then that
I think you will really enjoy.
And again, you know, I've written
for a bunch of different outlets.
So if you, just as well as writing
my own comics, so I know Google
Gregory Paul Silver don't just Google
Greg Silver because the other Greg
Silver is a marine biologist, and
that's very different in than mine.
Jeremy: You're into that sort of thing.
Greg: I, I, I, yeah.
Against the other Greg Silver.
Yo.
Like I'd love to collaborate
with him and like make like a, a
comic about whales or something.
But again, you know, we're very different.
Greg Silvers in, in terms of
the kind of work that we do.
Jeremy: Yeah, you got me beat.
The other most prominent Jeremy Whitley
online is a hedge fund manager, so i,
I have no idea what he's actually like
as a person, but I assume from the job.
As for the rest of us, you can find Emily
at Mega Moth on Twitter, mega underscore
moth on Instagram and@megamoth.net.
Ben is on Twitter at Ben the Con and
on their website@benconcomics.com,
where you can pick up all their
books, including pre-ordering.
The upcoming l Campbell wins
their weekend, their debut middle
grade novel from Scholastic.
And finally for me, you can find
me on Twitter and Instagram at j
Rome five eight, and on my website,
jeremy whitley.com, where you can
check out everything I write and
pre-order on my new book coming out
in May the Dog Night, which is about a
non-binary middle schooler who becomes
the hero of dogs and humans alike.
and of course,
Emily: hell.
Tina: more tickets, please,
Emily: Yes.
Jeremy: And and of course, the
podcast is on Patreon at Progressively
horrified our website, progressively
horrified.transistor.fm, and
on Twitter, Prague Horror Pod.
We, we would love to hear from you.
And speaking of loving to hear
from you, we would love if you
would rate and review this podcast
and let us know what you think.
Five stars is always welcome, helps other
people find the podcast and the rankings.
Thanks again so much to Tina
and Greg for joining us.
Guys.
It's been a ball
Tina: Thanks
Greg: having us.
Jeremy: Until next time, stay horrified.