Alicia: Hey, just a heads up the episode
you're about to listen to is about master

directed and written by Mariama Diallo.

Some relevant trigger warnings for
this movie include racism, racism,

racism, suicide, and bugs, and our
hosts ranked this movie as spooky.

If you'd like to learn more
about the movie, discuss this

evening, you can visit our.

Website, progressively
horrified.transistor.fm for show notes.

And a transcript.

After the spooky music we'll talk
about The movie in full so be

forewarned, there will be spoilers
Now let's get on with the show.

Jeremy: Good evening, and welcome to
Progressively Horrified, the podcast

where we old horror to progressive
standards that never agreed to.

Tonight we're talking about the 2022
feature debut by Mariama Diallo, the

writer, director of podcast, favorite
short her it's called Master.

I'm your host Jeremy Whitley.

And with me tonight, I have a
panel of cinephiles and cenobites.

First, the cinnamon roll of
Cenobites are co-host Emily Martin.

How are you tonight emily?

Emily: This film made me feel emotions
and it's, I didn't even realize it

was the same director as Hairwolf
because I was like, I should recommend

Hairwolf because it has all of the same
like stomach grinding moments, except

it, they're not played for laughs.

Jeremy: Yes, all of the stomach
grinding racism none of the fun.

Next uh, blogger and interviewer
at Diversity in Horror,

friend of the podcast, morgan.

How are you today, Morgan?

Morgan: I'm doing great.

I have complex feelings about this movie
and I'm looking forward to discussing it.

Jeremy: Yeah, absolutely.

And we're glad to have you back.

And finally, writer, filmmaker, and
friend of the podcast, Jay Joseph, Jr.

How are you tonight, Jay?

Good to have you back.

Jay: Thank you very
much for having me back.

Um, This is definitely a movie

Jeremy: This is a series of
pictures put on film that is

Jay: Yes.

Jeremy: In, in a narrative,
more or less fashion.

I, I drew the short straw on this tonight,
so I'm gonna be doing a quick recap.

It's a little more scattered than
these usually are because I found

this movie particularly difficult to
talk about without like, going through

every beat of every single scene.

But I'm gonna do my best here.

Uh, It is, as we said, written
and directed by Mi Mariama Diallo.

It Stars Regina Hall and Zoe
Renee in sort of the main roles.

Not a huge cast in this movie.

And most of it is spent on those two.

As I said, it's really hard to recap
this movie because it's mostly a lot

of foreboding, microaggressions going
into full on racism, agre, racist

aggression, and not a ton of pot.

We meet Jasmine Moore, an incoming
freshman at Ancaster University, which

is a elite New England University that
could stand in for any number of elite

New England universities near Boston.

She is moving on to campus and the girls
who are handling move in are already the

worst and talk about how she has the room.

We also meet Gail Bishop.

She's the master of Belleville
house, which is not a term I was

familiar with, but seems to be like.

Sort of mini Dean Ra, who lives in a
large house next to the residence hall.

The closest thing I had ever experienced
as in pop culture, was actually a

different world where like they had
the, you know, character was the,

the house mother still at that point.

This was like out of my wheelhouse.

Like I was an ra as you
know, college person.

But this is like a whole different,
I guess she's like the level below

dean, it seems at this point.

she's, she's still teaching, I guess,
and also is on like boards for things,

Emily: Yes.

She has tenure.

It's important.

Jeremy: she does have tenure and this is
a prestigious position that she is the,

your first black woman to ever hold.

So Kayla's being painted for a, a painting
to go in this house at the beginning,

and it's an ongoing thing in the story.

Along with the racism and
specifically the room.

The house that she lives in has
a racism room in the attic that

starts off with like uncomfortable
reminders of racism in the past.

Like the bells for what seems to
have been slave or servant quarters

up there you know, that are set up
to go, you know, all throughout the

house so people can ring bells to an
infestation of insects, which gets in

her painting and in all of her stuff
to literal overt reminders of racism,

including like a pH or like a racist
ology chart and a very strange, poorly

cropped photograph that shows of family.

And then sort of in the background
half of the kitchen with a slave

servant woman in it which I, I don't
know who that photographer is, but

they should get their money back.

Emily: She must have stood there for a
long time, or that's a, that's a younger

photograph than we thought because like
those exposures were very, very long.

Jeremy: And I, this, the insects
will very clearly be a metaphor

for the racism and investing all of
this higher learning institution.

We get it.

It's there.

It's not subtle.

Jasmine's story is a bit more complicated.

She's dealing with an asshole roommate
named Amelia, constant microaggressions

from every white student and the
black staff at the dining hall,

and her one black teacher, oh.

Also, she is in a room that is haunted
by a ghost of a witch who every so

often decides to kill somebody from
her room in her dorm at precisely

3:33 AM We really know the time.

We're not so clear on the date.

Emily: December.

Jeremy: Yeah.

I mean, eventually we get
there, but, um, it's weird.

Where the two stories coincide is
around the other important black woman

on campus, Liv a teacher who is giving
jasmine ridiculously bad grades.

She gives her an f for a paper
that she doesn't even explain why

she doesn't like in the story.

Um, And Gail is on the tenure board
for live to decide whether she is

getting uh, tenure at this university.

Jasmine also sleepwalks and
has very vivid dreams, which

I'm sure won't come up again.

She mentions that very early on.

Jasmine and her roommate Amelia, don't
get along from the word go, but it

gets worse when the dude Amelia is
after kisses Jasmine, and then somebody

carves leave on their door and leaves
a noose hanging on the door knob.

There seems to be some confusion
in Jasmine's mind as to whether

this is the witch or racism.

And Amelia just seems to be pissed
off that any of it's happening.

And it's not really clear if she's
got anything to do with it or what.

She will eventually leave and
that plot will just stop existing.

Emily: Amelia was being assaulted.

Jasmine was assaulted.

And Amelia was mad.

And then you know that that whole plot
is sort, is very subtle in this bit.

, Jeremy: I'll talk about the plot with
Amelia being assaulted here in a second.

Emily: Yes.

Jeremy: Because it's it's the
beginning of shit getting stepped

up on the races for Jasmine, which
culminates in a literal burning cross

in the front yard of the dorm during
Thanksgiving when everyone else is away.

Uh, Gail sees this because
she's, I guess, running nearby.

Gail just spends a lot of time
running outdoors and noticing things.

Like after they have this argument, Gail
finds Amelia outside on the ground looking

as if she's been through some shit, and
there were two boys that were there with

her who run off just as Gail approaches.

This is a scene that
comes like out of nowhere.

There's no like context as to the
scene other than she is suddenly

outside with a flashlight.

and hears some stuff and two boys run
off and then she finds Amelia on the

ground and then tries to counsel her
and then Amelia's like, oh, I know

what happens when stuff like this.

I won't go through that again.

And then Amelia leaves school.

And that is never touched on again.

Jasmine is learning about how the first
person to die in her room being hung by

this witch also happened to be the first
black student that was in this university.

She's still is solidly on team.

It's a witch at this point.

Despite there being like a weird tie
of, of race and people getting hung

at this university uh, she ends up
seeing like the shape of this witch.

She thinks a woman in the.

A cloak out on the quad stalking her.

She ends up running back into
her dorm, climbing out onto the

roof, and then falling off of it.

She wakes up in a hospital.

And then I've gotta back up because
there also is a subplot about their being

people who live near this university
who are descendants of its founders and

live like it's the 17 hundreds as if
they were Amish gail keeps seeing them

when she goes out on runs um, including
a, a funeral going on at one point.

And then we have the story of like, Liv
gets tenure by at this board meeting.

They're like, Hey, you haven't
published a lot of stuff, so we

have to look at your teaching.

And also like this grade you've been
giving, this kid is challenged, so

maybe your teaching is suspect and.

Liz's answer to this is y'all should look
at all the fucking racism on this campus.

That's why you should give me
tenure because a cross was burned

and there's horrible shit going on.

So just give me tenure now
which apparently works.

Jasmine and Gail have a talk at the
hospital, which Gail tells her the

witch is definitely not a real thing,
and the real issue is racism and

it's all over the place in America.

And she can't leave the university
and she can't quit because she'd be

running away from this and she doesn't
wanna see her give up this chance.

Uh, So she encourages her to stay.

Jasmine apparently takes this as
an indication that she c should

go back to the university and hang
herself in her room immediately.

She sees Liv on the way there and
lives like you shouldn't be here.

And then, Gail finds
her hanging in the room.

This is after Jasmine had, I guess,
another racist encounter with a woman

at the hospital, which again, like many
things that happened in this movie,

it's unclear how much of it is real
and how much of it is her, like weird

sleepwalking because a lot of it has
weird lighting that I was like, oh, this

must mean that it's like a sleepwalking
vision thing that she's having.

Cuz several things obviously
are things that don't happen

but are sleepwalking issues.

But then there are several things
that happen in this lighting that

definitely actually happen, including
like the scene with the cross burning.

So it's real unclear to me some of the
stuff, like what happens and what doesn't.

yeah.

So because racism is everywhere,
she takes this as a indication

that she should go hang herself
rather than continue to fight.

Gail then finally answers these
weird calls she's been getting

from a woman who wants to tell
her about her daughter Elizabeth.

she goes to a diner to meet this
woman and turns out to be one of

the people living as if it's the 17
hundreds in the community nearby.

Who says she's actually the mom of
Liv and that Liv is a white kid who

grew up as part of this community
and left at some point and has

decided since then that she's going
to start living as a black woman.

This is very clearly like
inspired by Rachel Dolezal stuff.

I don't think they actually say her name

Emily: Never.

Jeremy: but it's like very clearly
what they're playing with right here.

Emily: I mean, they cast Her.

They cast her to look
like Rachel do Asal too.

Jeremy: yeah, they styled her to look Ra

Emily: Or they styled her.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Jay: I, I personally found it
weird because as far as I know,

Amber, Greg is actually biracial.

Morgan: Yeah.

She.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Jay: but it just struck me as very odd.

Jeremy: It's a strange choice.

Emily: Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Jeremy: Also the fact that the, like
big twist in this movie revolves

around somebody living in a community
where they act like a 17 hundreds

making anonymous phone calls which
they don't really dive much into.

Gail tries to confront Liv about all
of this at the 10 year party for Liv.

Liv tries to deflect and uh, is
attempting to get uh, Gail to dance

with her by putting on club rap music at
this faculty party and making everybody,

including Gail, incredibly uncomfortable.

And Gail eventually shuts the
shit off and uh, confronts her

about about her being white.

When the white staff members
tried to intervene, basically

tells them to go fuck themselves.

And talks about how she's, going
to be haunted by Jasmine forever

because she could have done
something to help her and she didn't.

And then there's another scene at
this party where she is still there.

Gail has stayed at this party,
which is the wildest thing that

happens at this movie to me.

The white faculty have decided to
like, try and comfort her about

this being a mental health thing
and how it's been a rough year for

everybody so it's fine that she or
yelled at Liv, but have not taken

any of this stuff she said about Liv.

Seriously.

Liv then tells Gail that she doesn't
know her and doesn't know about her

life, and that she claims to be the
bastard daughter of a, a black man.

And this, this mom and then puts on her
cloak, which looks exactly like the cloak

we've been seeing the like witch character
wear throughout, but there's nobody there

to comment on any of this at that point.

And Liv walks off into the credits.

Gail meanwhile leaves the party and is
immediately confronted by security on

the lawn because she is a suspicious
black woman walking around campus.

And the security guy asks to
see her credentials and she

says, oh, I don't work here.

I'm just on my way out.

And then walks off literally
into the credits of this movie.

And that's the end.

She's gone.

Jay: to the credits and then we see
a bunch of uh, black groundskeepers

come in and work on the lawn.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Emily: Yeah.

Jeremy: Okay.

So, Jay, I feel like you have some
stuff to say about this movie generally.

Jay: First and foremost, I think the
main issue with the movie is kind of

communicated in, Jeremy going over the
plot there, it s sufferers some disease.

We generally call t m s,
which is too much story.

There's a lot that this movie tries to do.

And, and, and it kind of fits together,
but it doesn't really, cuz we have the

plot about the witch and then we have
microaggressions and we're following two

different characters of Jasmine and Gail.

And then there's like an allegory
to the Scarlet Letter in there and

there is the Puritan community or
whatever they're supposed to be.

And it just throws a lot at you at once.

I, I, I had a hard time
settling into the story.

Emily: Mm.

Jay: It is exactly.

I feel as, As Jeremy said,
like you get to minute 50.

I actually, looked at the timing
when the Twist with um, her roommate

happens, you know, it's then the
movie's more than halfway over.

I'm like, well, how's
this going to backer?

And oh, it's not, it's just gonna
introduce that thing that seems really

major and then just walk off from it.

That's like my main overall
thing of this movie.

I, I feel like it deals
with a lot at the same time.

And Hew Wolff kind of did too.

Hew Wolff like introduced a lot of
stuff, but the way Hew Wolff did,

it was almost more like a standard
routine, like a comedy routine.

And so it worked a lot better that way.

But in this one, it seemed to
be trying to seriously address a

bunch of different issues at once.

That, they do matter.

They are important, but it did it in a
way that I think overall kind of made

the movie a bit incoherent and I found
my, myself doing more work as a movie

gor than I feel I generally should be
doing uh, to understand a film like this.

Emily: did you feel like
that uh, diluted the message?

Jay: I don't know that, that it's
so much um, had a concrete message.

I don't want to communicate as, I feel
like it was trying to capture the overall

American freshman experience, especially
from the views of you know, a black

woman in this country and kind of what
her first must were like, and like, like

some of these events that went down.

I think I had a little bit of
difficulty with it because it didn't

really feel like human interaction.

I wanna, I guess is
the best way to put it.

whether that comes down to
performance or writing, I think

everyone was, was a good actor.

I think they did the good job,
but I feel like someone who had

probably been at like the craft
for a longer time or understood the

craft a little better, could that
material and drawn more out of it.

Cause these interactions felt very
stilted and very forced and they felt

very like, subjective to like the
director that, okay, this is what

I experienced, this is how I feel.

It went down.

But it didn't communicate in a
very human way I don't think.

So, which made it very
difficult to identify with.

So, and I think, you know, Jeremy
used the word microaggressions and I

feel like that's what this movie was.

It's just like a series of different
microaggressions kind of blown up.

I think in addition to just trying
to communicate a lot with the story

that maybe the director didn't trust
the audience enough to kind of trust

where she was going with it and
that we wouldn't get the sense that

things were off and maybe didn't
trust our subjectivity or something.

And so it pushed things a little
more than I think it had to, you

know, and, and came off as kind of
like over the top ingenuous force.

Emily: Yeah, I think it didn't quite
commit enough to certain things

and it committed too much to other
things, like I was not expect.

that like, I was happy that there
was some, some clear messaging,

some clear commitment towards the
end, but it still didn't really

validate other elements of the story.

Like Amelia's whole crisis and the
whole live situation than being suddenly

subjective was because like, that whole
situation was so full of twists and

turns that it just was not like clear,
we, and, and you know, as much as we

as an audience wanna trust Gail, we've
also been shown that Jasmine is our

protagonist for most of this movie.

And then, we wanna see her through it.

But she is ultimately sacrificed
for a character that is complex, but

also, We don't know where they land.

where they're, where like
anything concrete about them.

Jeremy: Yeah,

Morgan: like I said,

I have very mixed feelings about it.

There are things that I like, like
the portrayal of microaggressions that

felt really genuine because it could
be interpreted as like racism, but

it's also like not blatant enough,
but it can't be explained away.

Like when the librarian checks her
books, you know, it's because she's

black that the librarian's checking.

But it can easily be explained away
that, oh, well the alarm went off

and we just check everybody's book.

It's like, that happens.

. So I felt that was genuine.

I liked the concept of treating racism as
a haunting, this insidious supernatural

force that you can never escape.

And that like slowly eats away at you.

I didn't like the execution as much.

Felt like they ramped up a
little too fast going from

microaggressions to burning crosses.

I would've liked if they had focused
on the microaggressions to longer,

because in some ways I feel like that's
almost scarier because those can be

explained away or people can just be
like, oh, you're just imagining it.

Oh, you're just overreacting.

But those are the things that
like affect you the most.

. Not to say that burning crosses
and nooses on doors don't happen at

colleges in America, they absolutely do.

I just wish it hadn't ramped
up quite so quickly to that.

At least that was,
that's my point of view.

I liked the ideas.

I just thought like Jay said, they
were trying to cram too much in there.

Like the whole subplot with Liv
actually being white, that could

have been a movie in and of itself.

Jeremy: I mean, it basically
was within this movie,

Morgan: yeah.

Jeremy: a movie in and of itself.

Morgan: Yeah.

And I was like, it felt like they
weren't giving enough time to explore.

They had all these great ideas, but they
still weren't exploring them enough.

I wanted 'em to like
focus more on Jasmine.

Emily: Mm-hmm.

Morgan: or even have dual protagonists
with Jasmine and Gail, but they didn't

really give either of them enough
time to like really develop the story.

Jeremy: Yeah, I think like there's a
real solid idea there of like the, the

racism as a haunting kind of thing.

But there are also like genuine, like,
it, it's never clear what's actually

happening to Jasmine in this movie
because she, there are definitely

racist things that happened to her on
a grand scale, like the cross burning.

Like the noose on the door,
having leave carved in her door.

There are also a lot of microaggression
things that are happening throughout

this, which are some of the like better
delivered things in the movie, the

party scene where she is dancing and
having a good time, and then they put

on this rap song and all the white
kids in the room start saying the

N word along with the rap song and
suddenly gets incredibly uncomfortable.

Like that is something that like
the pitch of that scene is perfect

and I think would've been maybe what
to go more with, with the story.

But they seem insistent on also having the
quasi supernatural witch angle in there.

Which like, it's never like, it were
kids, like white kids playing pranks

on her pretending it's a witch to get
her to drop out of school, and that

were something that were made apparent.

Then I feel like that would work.

But there's also scenes where like
she's asleep and there's the arm

that comes out from under the bed and
scratches her arm, and then she wakes

up because she's been sleeping, but
also she still has a scratch on her arm.

That like feels out of supernatural
thriller movies that have nothing in

common with this movie that like that's
the stuff that really didn't work for me.

Morgan: I would've liked if there
was a little more ambiguity of

whether the haunting was real or
not, or if it was all in her head.

But stuff like you mentioned, like
the scratches on her arm made it seem

like it was actually happening, and
I, I would've liked it more if like

it was unclear if there was a witch
or if Ja, Jasmine is just seeing a

witch because of all the stress that
she's under from the microaggressions

and the races that she's dealing.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Jay: I think there are actually
two major issues in the movie.

The, the, the first thing I said is
that, you know, the movie just couldn't

resist spelling certain things out.

I think by Gail, for example,
giving that speech that it's, not

a ghost, it's not supernatural.

It's racism, it's everywhere.

And losing the character of Jasmine
herself, it just kind of eliminates the

possibility of any other kind of suspense
because it's removing all uttered out.

Even the live scene, it feels like the
instinct of the movie was to make it

ambiguous as to if Liv actually was
living this sly as like a transracial

person or if she actually was biracial
and really did have this uh, secret

black father that she talks about.

And then the movie can't resist.

You're moving all doubt by having her put
on the witches cloak and you go, oh, okay.

So, you know, she is full of it.

And there's just a lot of moments
like that where the movie just.

Kind of ruins all the hard work
it did towards making you question

jasmine's kind of uh, mental state
and if she was really being haunted

or if she was suffering mental illness
or if she was just being tortured by

these other white people around her.

And I think the other major problem
the film had was um, it just

failed to establish a concrete
visual language in the beginning.

I think part of that was because it spent
a lot of time just focusing on Jasmine

and Gail moving into the respective
lives in the campus I even wrote down

the note that it felt like a very
long introduction that didn't really

tell us anything about the characters.

Like we don't learn anything about where
Jasmine came from until she literally

tells us later on when she confronts
live, like, oh, I grew up in the suburbs.

I went to so-and-so.

You know, we don't know anything
about Gail's friendships, you know,

we just know that now she's master
of the school and she has a speech

later on, like, oh, I didn't fix
any diversity, and I'm questioning,

what was that why you were there?

Is that why you got the position?

Because this stuff about diversity
didn't start coming up until the final

act in terms of the school having
a diversity problem and all that.

But in cutting between the two
characters, it was very, very diplomatic.

So it didn't really tell us who we should
really be following and keeping an eye on.

You know, it didn't really like establish
her circumstances and it was all very.

Pretty, like it was well shot, but
it wasn't shot in such a way as to

teach us how we're watching the film.

So I think, Jeremy made a great point
about the lighting in the film and

how sometimes the lighting will tell
you, you know, she's trapped in the

nightmare and other times the lighting
will be the same in the real world.

That is very confusing.

And that's because this movie just
didn't have a concrete visual language.

And that's very, very important,
especially to a horror film

where, you know, you have to
question reality all the time.

Emily: Yeah, and a, and a
film that is about something.

I think that the relationship
between supernatural, haunting

and racism needed to be clearer.

And when you have something like
this being discussed, racism, assault

all of these hard topics that people
confront, especially in a caller

setting, considering the history there,
adding subjective reality to that is

a really, really dicey thing, I think.

And I think that with her being
a sleepwalker and having these

nightmares, the nightmares were
less metaphorical and more confusing

as to what was actually going on.

So much so that when things were
actually happening, you would.

and that's not great . Cause
that's the problem that people

have with this kind of situation.

So, you know, I think it, it slipped
into some dangerous territory

there and confusing the message.

Jeremy: I mean, let me say, first of all,
if I never see another horror movie with

a sleepwalking protagonist, I'll be fine.

Like, I am just so done
with that as a plot device.

And like, there's a difference
between like this, oh yeah.

Sometimes I sleepwalk and like
the Baba Dukes, I haven't been

sleeping, and I'm not really sure
when I'm awake and when I'm asleep.

And those are very, like, that is
done very effectively in the Baba

Duke and in this movie, it's like,
I don't know when you're awake and

asleep, even by the end of the movie.

And it's the cues are all wrong.

But I, I wanted to say about the live
part that there are two potential

interesting stories in that and in
that revelation that they don't quite

commit to either one, which is like,
it definitely seems to imply that.

because she has the witch's
cloak and everything.

And that Liv is in some way behind some of
the things that have happened to Jasmine.

Um, But it doesn't spell any of that
out in a way that like the cloak seems

to want you to understand that like,
oh, perhaps this woman has like staged

all of this racism against this black
student so that she could get tenure.

Which is like, that's a wild
that's a wild way to go with

that, but is, is a possibility.

But then there's the like, other way
that this could be interesting, which

is that like Gail has dropped this
story on Jasmine about how like racism

is everywhere and you can't get away
from it, and there's really only one.

one time that we see Gail comfortable
in this movie, and that's when

she is in the company of this
other black woman live that she

feels like she can be honest with.

And then it turns out that like
there's white racism in there too.

Like this, this woman is actually,
you know, not black at all and is, you

know, using this sort of transracial
identity to even get into this one space

where she felt safe and comfortable.

But because they're trying to do too
much stuff and going so many different

directions, they're not able to like,
commit and nail any of those points.

I feel like.

Jay: I almost wonder, I had this thought
while I was watching the film and,

and I did look it up and I, I see, you
know, I know it was her first feature

and I did absolutely love hear Wolff.

I, I, I saw she has like two other shorts
that I'm very interested in watching.

I didn't have a chance
to watch before this.

Just to learn more about the
director and her screenwriting.

And while I know this was shot as
her first teacher, there's part

of me that questioned as to, I
wonder if this is a TV show first.

Because on a movie, I'll be honest it
loses a lot of coherency and it introduces

a lot of different story threads
and it just kind of randomly drops.

And then there's the live
revelation and I feel.

all of that is almost more in the style
of by Manor and lock and key and American

Horror Story, you know, than it is like
get out and then develop in those films.

It feels, you know, more like it
has that kind of, you know, if this

was done in a series of chapters,
then you had time to really flesh

out the characters and all that.

Then if it really had the real
estate to explore all that, it

could have made a compelling story
with a very compelling antagonist.

But the way it is now, it feels like it's
a bigger story that was all condensed

down to get it kind of done quickly.

And I just kind of wonder like, like
this is me fully speculating here, going

off into like the world of filmmaking.

I wonder if she had to show, show it
around, you know, and went, you know,

and, and then this happens, this happens.

And she met some producer or
has some friend said, nah,

that doesn't work as a TV show.

This is a feature, right.

As a feature and get it done.

And, and I kind of wonder
that if that happened here,

Jeremy: I, I was thinking the same
thing because it, it does strike me very

much as something that has like more
character development to be done that

seems to have been cut out at some point.

And uh, it, it feels uh, serious.

Like, and I, I even wonder because it
is an Amazon original and I wonder if

like, having the series them come out
like in the last couple years and.

blessed than stellar reviews and
have a very, like similar racially

tinged horror idea behind it.

If, you know, somebody was looking at
this as a series and then decided, well,

maybe, we'll, we won't do that again.

We'll just make it a movie.

and that, again, that's gear speculation,
but it feels um, cobbled together.

Emily: Yeah.

I can imagine this as a show with all
of this going on as a thread and then.

It's all about Gail and Jasmine trying
to uncover the fucked up history of this

school and then finding the identity
of the witch, because I feel like the,

there was this whole thing about the
witch that was really, really pro like,

telegraphed, but it never went anywhere.

you know, it seemed like the, that
was gonna be the mystery, but,

and it just, again, like so many
other threads, it was dropped.

When we lost Jasmine, especially.

Morgan: and I kinda wish they like,
had spent more time on the revelation

with Liv that she is potentially
white and pretending to be black.

Emily: Yeah.

Morgan: Cause I felt like that idea
could have then explored more like the

appropriation of black culture how white
people like, and get it out where like

white people see black culture as being
appealing and they want to be a part

of it without actually having to deal
with all the baggage that comes with it.

I'm biracial, but white passing.

And one of the things that white
people always ask me when they find

out I'm half black, they ask it's,
can you, ooh, can you say the N word?

And I'm like, why is that the
first thing that you want to do?

Whereas when black people find out
I'm mixed, the first thing they asked

me is, so you hear all the racist
stuff that white people say when they

think there's no black people around.

And to me that kind of shows
like very different perspectives.

black people know that , having that one
drop rule, it comes with a lot of baggage.

White people just see it as like
this cool exotic thing that gives

you n word privileges or whatnot.

Emily: one privilege that they don't have

Morgan: yes, and they think
that it's privilege and

Emily: yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Morgan: they don't see
their own privilege.

And I think that could have been like
an idea that they could have explored

more, but as it is, it was kind of shoved
in there along with everything else.

So we don't really get to explore this
idea of appropriating black culture.

Cuz I remember the first time
I watched the movie and she

was revealed to be white.

I was like, wait, what?

What does this have to do with
anything that just happened?

So yeah, I would've like, . If Liv's story
had been like drawn out a little more,

we get to like find out more about her.

Like cuz there's little
hints here and there.

Like you kind of get the
impression she's trying too hard

to be like the hit black person.

Like when she says over Thanksgiving,
she's gonna be getting collared greens

and sweet potatoes and everything.

And when she's playing the music,
she's like, oh no, I'm gonna play

some real music at a faculty party.

Wildly inappropriate.

Jeremy: The interaction that stood out
to me that kept coming back to me was

the one with Gail when Gail's had the
bad party and she comes over to talk

to her and she was like, as soon as
like she brings up that it felt weird.

Like, Liv immediately says, oh,
you felt like a House N word.

And she's like, uh, no.

that's not what I was gonna say.

That's, it's kind of a long jump.

Morgan: and then like when Liv brings up,
she's like, yeah, I'm an only child too.

And then we find out she has a brother

Jay: The character of Linda's.

Talking about, because I
have a lot of complicated

feelings over that character I,

Morgan: Yeah,

Jay: I think there's some stuff in there.

I hate doing this.

Cuz I don't like, you know, second
guessing the the motivations

of like another creator.

You know, but I do feel like, at
least for me, there's a little bit of

political background noise that I can't
help but touch on as we talk about Liv.

But first and foremost, I'll adjust
the story issue with it, which is,

I'm just never quite sure how the
narrative wants me to feel about Liv.

At first I thought it was at a
deficit because I've actually, of all

the books I've read, I've actually
never read The Scarlet Letter.

And I realized a lot that
it was al go towards that.

And I didn't quite have a grasp
on how ridiculous the essay.

Liv was asking about from
her students would've been.

And so whether or not, you know, Jasmine's
grade was actually warranted or not, I

just had no frame of reference for that.

You know, and, and there's
no other character to kind of

like reinforce that either.

But then as it continued on, I
realized that, whether or not you're

familiar with the trial letter is
irrelevant because every interaction

will live is kind of this way.

It's like, should I feel that,
you know, she's trying too hard?

Should I feel she's pushing back on
Jasmine and picking on her in particular.

And then there are these scenes, you
know, where oh, but she's actually

Gail's best friend in the world.

You know, maybe she is okay.

You know, I'm just.

I'm just always uneasy around Liv and
as much as I feel that might be valid I

feel she's a little too integral to the
plot and she really is our only other

person of color that we have any kind
of real contact with outside of Gail

and Jasmine and this story about race.

So she was just, disorienting
as a character for me.

Emily: I felt like her whole
situation being a villain who is

exploiting the white guilt is such a.

Like conservative cartoon.

I feel like it's really close
to being able to be misread.

And I, I really hate that.

Like, especially in this movie that
has so much to say about a lot of what

life is like for students of color
or, you know, any minority student.

In this case, it's very important
that, you know, it's about blackness

on this Ivy League college.

But yeah, like the narrative of the
person who is a mi who represents a

minority who is exploiting a system
that is trying to reconcile is it

is not helpful to a discussion about
how fucking broken the system is.

That's sort of where my biggest issue
with the live character lies because

I feel like, even if she's like
mixed race, even if she's, you know,

like, like everyone has already said,
her story is not developed enough

for us to feel the way that I think
we're supposed to feel about it.

Because we don't know anything
about these Amish adjacent people.

We don't know what their
relationship is to the school.

This is a kind of baffling decision.

That said, you know, I did think
that the movie was a valuable watch.

You know, despite, this confusing like
messaging in the, in the center story,

but I I just lost my train of thought.

I'm so sorry.

I, was thinking about

the world

Jeremy: jumping in on the, like,
Liv being underdeveloped, there's

a small army of characters in
this movie who are underdeveloped.

Like Amelia very obviously, because
Amelia has a major story in this

movie that is just not in this movie.

Like, you know, the.

Scene where she is assaulted and then
leaves is clearly the remnant of something

that was supposed to be a lot more of
this story and then just like got cut

down to these couple of scenes that almost
don't make sense next to each other.

Like they're not filled out
in a way that makes sense.

Hyler is like, seems to be an
important love, interest character

and he's in all of two scenes.

You've got the character Katie who
mentions like passingly that she's Jewish

at one point in the story and like that's
I guess why she's hanging out with Jasmine

is their, like his little cohort of her.

And for God's sake pastor,
what is Ella Hunt doing in like

the background of this movie?

This is like,

Jay: Yeah.

Jeremy: she is way too good to be like
the British best friend who has like

10 lines in his, in all of these scenes
we're talking about an Anna from Anna

the Apocalypse, like she's just, There,

Jay: at in itself, I feel avoids
a very tricky question about race

because there's this entire scene
that Jasmine has in the bathroom where

she gets a hug from another black

Jeremy: Sasha?

Yeah, it was.

It

was another one of these characters
who is an upperclassman, who's black

And only appears in this one scene.

Jay: her white friends come in and
then, and then she separates from

almost like she can't be seen with her.

And that was a really interesting choice.

I do think there's something to say
there about, you know, black people who

will only keep white friends or will
only be seen whether or won't be seen

with the black friends or whatever.

But then that's something else
that's just totally tossed aside that

Morgan: Yeah.

Well, and like how she
straightens her hair too.

She started off with like natural
hair and then she straightens

it to try to fit in better.

Like why didn't they explore that more?

How she is almost rejecting her
own blackness Cause she feels

like she has to fit in and she
doesn't want to be this stereotype.

Jay: really is this, this undercurrent.

I think that's a great way to put it
cuz there really is this undercurrent

drop the film of Jasmine rejecting
her blackness, but then that's

something that's also not very strong.

For something that essentially
kills Jasmine in the long run, it,

you know, she can't escape racism.

It's gonna haunt her no matter what.

That's a huge thing to kind of
like introduce and then just

not deal with in the film.

So

Jeremy: Doesn't what she say?

She's from fucking Tacoma.

There's no like racism at Tacoma.

That's the, that's the weird thing to
me is that this character s who Yeah.

Is from Washington State, I guess
is just being introduced to the

concept of racism at college.

Like, I mean, I know like
it's different, right?

Like it's on a different class level.

But like she, she is all in on this witch
thing from the beginning despite like

the obvious racism going on around her.

And it's really weird.

Emily: I don't think that she
ever thinks it's not racism.

I think that she's, you know,
she knows that it's racism.

But I mean, I don't know.

I, the way that I read that was
that she was so used to these

microaggressions that she's like,
how is this different than before?

You know?

And then it became, once he
got a supernatural angle to.

then it became a life-threatening thing.

Whereas, you know, if this movie
was clearer, it would be clear about

how those microaggressions were now
accumulating into the fatigue that

eventually drove Gail out from the fight.

Because it's the all, that was another
weird messaging thing is that like,

you know, you would expect it movie be
like this to be like, you gotta stay

in the fight and you gotta represent
and, you know, and change things.

And then Gail's like, you know what,
this isn't worth my this particular

battle isn't worth dying for.

You know, which for Gale sh Yeah.

Sounds great.

But like the arc wasn't clear enough
to me for it to be like, yeah.

Morgan: I have very strong
feelings about message too.

I'm not quite sure how I feel about it.

So I do a lot of d e I work through
my job and so I'm one of those people

who's like, yeah, we gotta change the
system even though it really sucks

and it's really hard and people were
fighting you every step of the way.

So on the one hand, I was like
frustrated that she just gave up

and she was just like, not screw
it and nothing's ever gonna change.

Like she literally said it,
it's never gonna change.

And that's like a really
frustrating, discouraging thing.

Emily: Yeah.

Morgan: But on the other hand, when they
were talking about self-care obviously

they were like totally appropriating
the conversation and making it about

their own selves and their whiteness.

But there, there was a point to be
made that black people shouldn't have

the burden of having to do all this
work just by default of being black.

And Jasmine really did need to
focus on her own wellbeing and

reach out instead of trying to
take all this on, like on her own.

And I can totally see why Gail
would just be like, you know what?

Screw these people.

I'm done.

I've tried making things
better, and I'm just, I'm tired.

I need a break.

When I first started doing d e
I work I asked for advice from.

, one of the trainers like how
do you practice self-care?

How do you deal with like ignorant
questions and ignorant people every day?

And she says, easy.

I don't work on Fridays.

So basically if somebody had a
stupid question when she's in

teacher mode, she'll answer it
and be like very compassionate.

She'll explain it.

She'll be very patient.

If you ask her the same question on
Friday, she'll be like, that is a stupid

fucking question and you should feel bad
for asking it people, black people need

that space to just be able to relax and
not have to be educating these white folk.

And that is what Gail had to
do throughout the entire movie.

And she had to put up with her own
microaggressions, like when she

became the housemaster and they're
like, soon you'll be president.

Should we call you Barack Obama?

And I was like so I have very mixed
feelings about the message of the ending.

I'm like, I don't know if it's
a good thing or a bad thing,

but I feel strongly about it.

Jay: I agree about the self-care
point and I, I think the major.

issue with this film is that for
the character Jasmine alone, she

has four things going on, right?

First off, she a freshman and for the
first time and she has to deal with that.

You know, she's dealing with all these
microaggressions as a black woman.

And she has to deal with that,
you know, finding her place there.

And then there is this question
of her health that kind of like

Steve walking and insomnia, I
guess it does mesh in a little bit.

And then there is this entire
concept of the witch, which feels

the most kind of outta play.

I like the bow.

Gail puts on it at the end when she
says, you know, it's not a ghost,

it's not supernatural, it's everywhere
and it never goes away, you know?

And then, and then she turns
to the ghost speech later on.

She's like, you know, it's like a ghost.

You can't prove it.

You can't hunt it.

I, and I thought those were great points.

I just really feel like I need something
that you know, I think my in instinct is

almost to go the opposite way with it.

I, I think for all of us,
everything felt a little too real.

And part of that, I believe is because
a lot of the stuff that happens in the

script is based on real world events.

You know, the hanging.

Morgan: Yeah.

Jay: You know, that actually
happened to a professor just

up north of me at a college.

The you know, the burning Cross, as we
know that happened, the treating the

black person, like made at a party.

We know that happens, especially
being stopped for the books

and being checked and all that.

So all of that stuff is very real.

So then what the movie would say,
oh, by the way, the witch might

have done it, you don't buy that

Morgan: Yeah,

Jay: It's just not good enough.

As an as kind, like an excuse and to
misdirect us or make us wonder, huh?

I wonder if see something supernatural
is going on there, at no point are

you wondering that because it's
all just too visceral and real.

Emily: yeah.

Morgan: I was kind of wondering if what
she was trying to do with the story we

kind of mentioned about how Jasmine was
kind of rejecting her own blackness.

If maybe she was trying to show
Jasmine is not really accepting the

microaggressions and microaggressions
and kind of gaps lighting herself

into thinking, oh, they didn't
really mean that they're my friends.

Oh, they probably check everyone's
book if the alarm goes off.

, oh, they just asked me to clean up cuz I
was the closest person and she probably

tries to like, justify it in her head.

And so when even like the news
incident, she's tries to play it off.

So I'm wondering if what they were
trying to do, albeit not well, was

Jasmine kind of created the witch
because she couldn't accept that what

she was happening to her was racism.

She's like, no, I come from the suburb.

I'm a valedictorian.

That doesn't happen to me.

That shouldn't be happening to me.

And she rejects like, the other
black student, she basically

rejects her friendship.

We see the moment of weakness where they
hug and it seems like it's gonna be okay

and then she's like distances herself.

So I'm wondering if maybe that's what
they were trying to do, but if that's what

they were trying to do, it's very unclear.

Emily: Yeah.

Jay: Yeah, I can see that.

Especially given the, the conversation
in the hospital where Gail's almost like,

oh, she's disconnected from reality.

This isn't a witch.

You know, it's, yeah.

I could, yeah.

Morgan: Yeah.

Jeremy: Yeah.

There's, it's, it feels like an autopsy.

Like there's, there's something.

Something there, something killed this
movie and it's, it's difficult to parse

out exactly what it was, you know,

Morgan: Yeah.

Emily: This was a promising young movie.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Morgan: And I, I don't
think it was a bad movie.

I mean, I enjoyed it.

It's just that it had a lot of potential
and then didn't follow through,

Emily: Yeah, that's what I was
gonna say earlier when I lost my

train of thought, is that, yeah,
it's there's a lot that this movie's

trying to say, and, you know, you
don't, I'm not saying you have to have

an answer whether you should fight,
whereas you take care of yourself.

You know, it's not a binary situation,
but the fact that you had like a bunch of

horrible shit happening, some supernatural
shit happening, what the movie really

should be talking about is this life
that these people have to deal with.

and the reality of that and if it is
if it is discussed with something like

a supernatural metaphor, the way that
the Babadook is, you know, that would

be cool if it was just like, how do
I get over this fatigue of having to

just exist without all this shit going
on, this noise of people being racist.

I think that, you know, either
way I think that the, that, that

reality is important just for people.

Like if I was if I was trying to talk,
if I was like a white, white school

master and I was trying to talk to the
other white kids in the college, I'd

feel like, you know, here's what not to.

, right?

Like, it's a really great, like, you know,
sometimes we don't have an answer, but

we do have things that we should not do.

I mean, if that worked, like a lot
of white people see something like

this and are like we would never
do that, you know, or whatever.

But like, I still think it's a
valuable reflection on just how it

feels to, to be dealing with all that.

Because it is so, it is so well
represented by the interactions

in the movie, I think.

I think, you know, and that's me
talking as speaking as a white person.

So , you know, I know this is an audio
medium, but I just wanna make, make sure

that's clear to our listeners, . But yeah.

So I mean, I don't, I wouldn't
like put this on the top of a list

of movies to recommend in that
regard, but, you know, like this is

where I feel like it'd be useful.

And it would be memorable for people.

Jeremy: Yeah.

This movie almost feels like, to me, like
we, we talked about it being like a, you

know, feeling like maybe it was a TV show.

It also sort of feels like
somebody was like, all right,

we, we wanna do a movie with you.

What if you got, and somebody just had
a bunch of ideas and they put 'em all

together into a thing and it didn't quite.

I mean, and there's, there's
some good stuff there.

And, and God, the performances are good.

Like, I mean, you can't, you
really can't beat Regina Hall.

Like she's very good in this
and she's very good period.

Zoe Renee is, is doing a lot with
what she's given because she's

given very little to work with.

There's very, like, the character is very
quiet and internal, which makes a lot

of out what's going on in this movie.

Very difficult.

And I feel like even, even though,
like, summary given by, you know, by

Amazon and, and by I mdb, which says
it's about three women strive to find

their place in an elite northeastern
university, but anonymous racist attacks.

Target a black freshman who
insists on being haun, who insists

she's being haunted by ghosts.

Each woman must determine
where the real meta lies.

That's not an accurate description.

Cause this movie is not about

Liv ,like this movie is not
about Liv in any way, shape, or

form other than as a, you know,
potential antagonist in this story.

Like, she is not trying to find her
place unless by trying to find her place.

You mean trying to, trying to make a
place for her as a black person in this

community, which it, it is heavily,
heavily discussed that she is not, and

I, I honestly, I don't, I don't jive
with the ambiguity on that either.

Like it's, I don't know, it it
muddies every other statement that

they're trying to make in the story.

And casting an actual mixed
race person in that part I think

is is a troubling decision.

I mean, cuz you know, I, I guess,
you know, you want to give black

and mixed race actors more parts,
but also if you have, if you're

bringing up this conversation
about like whether this woman is.

Is black or not.

And you know, she is in theory
supposed to not be, than casting a

mixed race person there puts, puts
more issues into the casting than

Jay: yeah.

You know, I, so I think this is the part
that kind of bothered me the most, and I

wanna like put put a disclaimer out there.

I very much believe in having Antagonists
who are in minority groups, I believe,

you know, your, your protagonists should
be black, mixed race, you know, you

know, they can be Jewish, they can be
women, they can be poor, they can be

whatever demographic you want, right?

I don't think I, I get the idea to
treat those characters as precious,

but I also find it a bit kind of like
condescending and Molly coddling almost

like know, oh, we should, you like the
va the villains for so long that, you

know, we're not gonna do that anymore.

We're gonna put you in
this safe protective box.

And I might know everyone
comes in, you know, in, in, in,

there are all kinds out there.

You can do whatever you
like with your villains.

I also don't feel any topic is
kind of optimist to talk about.

And, and this movie certainly, you know,
goes for a lot of different, sensitive to

topics for sure, which is fine, but, Now,
given, now, now saying those two things.

There's, there's something I found a bit
problematic about Liv's storyline for me.

And I'm not trying to make any judgments
about the director, but I, I think

it has to be a knowledge that there's
this very difficult conversation.

And it's come up a lot recently in
terms of, you know, a biracial chow's

place in their respective communities.

Especially when it comes down to,
you know, this child being the result

of of a black and white couple.

You know, and, and there are a lot
of questions that come up and they

often do, you know, Liv even says a
line like, I never figured out where

I belong, but when it coming out of
Liv's mouth, Feels disingenuous when

that, when that's a real kind of feeling
along among, you know, mixed race kids.

Like, I don't feel like I don't belong.

I don't know which community I belong to.

I was raised, you know, one way,
but realized I belonged to another.

Even in my family you know, my, my, my
dad's black, but he's like black Latino.

And it took a while for me and
my siblings to kind of embrace

that Latino part of our identity.

You know, we were raised basically
identifying as black and all that.

And we didn't know, we didn't learn any
Spanish growing up, nothing like that.

And so we started asking serious
questions about that as we got

older, because for a long time it
just really wasn't a part of us.

You know, same with one
of my best friends who.

is um, half Chinese, half Scottish,
and, and you know, he kind of had his

eyes open that, that like, oh, I, I,
I'm Scottish, but other people don't

see me as that, you know, because
I I, because I have this going on.

So I think that's a very real topic.

And I feel like mixed race kids get a lot
of scrutiny both from white communities

and black communities, And so it was
very troubling to me to have Liv be

such a, a, a disingenuous character and,
and to not know where she was supposed

to stand because exactly When did she,
did she say when she shouted out to

ga, oh, you felt like a house negro?

You know, that's a really kind of
harsh thing to say as our first true

introduction to live, it did seem like
she was like, singling out Jasmine.

It did make that illusion that,
you know, she might be the witch.

and there could be a question that
comes up, you know, when we have the

big reveal of Liv and, and you know,
sorry for the huge spoiler, but that

Liv might not be a black woman, that
she might've been a white woman this

entire time pretending to be black.

It it, it brings up this un icky question.

Well, are biracial kids, are they frauds?

Are they like, are they fraudsters?

You know, are they pretending to be black?

Are they pretending to embrace
this, this black identity?

And at least for me, the, the movie didn't
resolve that in a satisfying enough way

to really deal with like, kinda like such
a heavy question and something that's

like just kind of so sensitive right now.

Emily: Yeah,

Jeremy: Yeah.

And I, I think that goes hand
in hand with the way this movie

maybe deals with sexual assault.

Like it just introduces a potential plot
point in this story and then it's gone.

Jay: Yeah,

Morgan: yeah.

Emily: And

Morgan: As a, as somebody who
is half black and half white, I

definitely would also uncomfortable
with some of the implications and

the casting of a biracial person as
someone who's supposed to be white.

And I, I've noticed that with like,
when they're casting biracial actors,

, they never get to be biracial.

They always have to be
one race or another.

And if you're like ethnically
ambiguous, then good luck.

They're just gonna cast you
as like something random.

They'll be like, you're ambiguously
brown, you're Latino now.

So I, I felt weird about, about
the casting and I think Jay put it

really well since we don't fit in
boxes and people don't like that.

And so then they try to put us into
these boxes and kind of almost accuse

us of lying about our identity.

Maybe you're not white enough,
maybe you're not black enough.

Like you're not allowed
to be like something else.

You have to be one or the other.

I have to understand that as a
non-binary person, people don't like

that cause they don't fit into boxes.

So.

Yeah, it, I definitely felt
weird about the passing.

I, I think they should have just passed
a white person and if, if they were gonna

make her back black not black, white.

I guess the reason they tested by a
racial person was because they wanted

to leave it ambiguous as to whether
she actually is half black or not.

But I'm like, oh,

Jeremy: Either that or there was somebody
along the process that was like, we

can't put a white person in brown face.

Morgan: Yeah.

Jay: like think the worst
of it off of the bat.

Like, like, I like to think people
always have better intentions.

So, you know, I could see that that
part of why you cast this voice,

because you want to kind of like
protect your plot twist and also,

you know, protect this part about
you know, maybe Gail got it wrong.

Maybe she really is maybe really.

Morgan: Mm-hmm.

Jay: Lie that her, you know, father
wasn't really her father, all that.

But then I do think it makes a few
narrative choices that undercuts

that, such as like wearing the
witch's cloak at the very end.

Morgan: Mm-hmm.

Jay: kind of icky is, for me
personally, was the implication

there that somehow lib was benefiting
from being both white and black.

When I think the reality is
that, you know, you don't

really benefit from either.

I think it's the opposite
almost, you know?

Emily: Mm-hmm.

Jay: so, so it's like, oh, she gets to be
as racist as she wants as a white person,

and then she gets to benefit from playing
the black card, you know, off of that.

And I just, that just made
me cringe a little bit,

Morgan: Yeah.

That, that's not how that works.

So, Oh.

To be clear, like obviously
like skin biracial, people like

me do benefit from colorism.

But that's not the same thing as
benefiting from racism and colorism

and racism are two different things.

And well, I do benefit greatly from
colorism because I'm white passing.

I am still subject to racism

and that is something that like
a lot of people do not get.

And I felt like even if she was biracial,
then that would've almost been worse

cuz of be implying that well, you're
half white so you can't really be black

Emily: Yeah.

Yeah.

Jeremy: Yeah.

I think excitedly watching this movie
and talking about it right after, nope.

It does not benefit from that comparison.

Cause

Nope.

Is, is done so deftly and everything
is so intentional and this movie.

, it feels the opposite of intentional.

It, there's a, a lot of stuff
going on and, and none of it is

very well resolved, I feel like.

Jay: I think that's a great way to put it.

I, I, I think there is like
an making very, kind of like

intentional, decisive decisions
is highly important to a narrative

like this and just can't do that.

When you just toe things in there and
then just kind of completely tossing up.

Like, I, I, I, I feel part of like,
wait, Abigail, or is such a waste, you

know, a again, part of it is that it.

once again, removes doubt as to if
li's truly behind things, because

when you get rid of, it's, it's
kinda like an episode of Scooby-Doo.

Once you get rid of a major suspect
and there's only like so many

other suspects left, and it's not
just Abigail, like Abigail does

literally walk out of the plot.

She's literally moves out of the plot.

But all of Ja other friends and you
know, the white boy that's crushing on

her, they all kind of disappear from
the narrative at that point as well.

Like no one comes back.

And so that only leaves you with so
many people that you've had access to

over the course of the story and it
kind of just leaves them as a natural

suspect you know, really is no one else
besides live by the end of the story.

But with Abigail, what happens
to her is an extremely big deal.

you know, and again, it is just like
these other incidents that have been

happening to Jasmine, like Jasmine had,
they're essent, they're essentially

headlines that keep happening to Jasmine.

And then Abigail
experiences a headline too.

And that's not just, and, and
this stuff, you know, it happens

all the time on college campuses.

You know, we know it's,
we know it's a problem.

We know it's kind of
like, like an epidemic.

But there have been some very,
very high profile cases recently

in association with that.

Just like the, as soon as that happened
at Jasmine Abigail's mirrors some

pretty exact real world stuff that
has have been in national news, and

then she disappears in the plot.

And I, I think what we're missing there
is a lot of the emotional fallout as well.

I think, I think we miss, I think the
director kind of cheats out of answering

some complicated questions because
it's like, okay, maybe Abigail did all

this bad stuff to Jasmine, but that
doesn't justify what happened to her.

You know, or, you know, Abigail is now a
victim too, but in a different fashion.

And as if opening this Pandora's box isn't
enough, the narrative also says, oh, and

by the way, this also happened to Abigail
before in her old life, before the school.

How about that?

And then she

disappears.

,it's like,

Emily: And if anything with the, with
that particular plot you know, the only,

like, the only thing that I can give it
is that it is a commentary on how a lot

of that stuff is just swept under the rug
and people just kind of buckle under that.

But like, I don't know, I don't know if
that that was what was needed in this

movie that's talking about these issues.

Like, it almost is as bad as like, oh
yeah, we're not gonna talk about that.

You know, it's like, yeah, it's
fucked up that people just say they,

you know, just let it go and say
they're not gonna talk about it.

But like, no movie, you
should talk about it.

Like you're talking about racism
and you're talking about a lot of

really fucked up shit, you know?

I think we can say the word assault.

You know, Tyler, Tyler, when he is when
he kisses Jasmine is es essentially

assaulting her because she's, she,
he's like, I'm gonna make you this

super powerful shot and, and, you
know, and you're like the only person

in the room and I'm gonna kiss you.

And like, he, he does not talk about it.

He is basically giving her
alcohol to take advantage of her.

And that is also not discussed.

Then it becomes, that becomes
an issue with the roommate.

Abigail or

Emil,

Jeremy: me if I'm.

, but after Tyler kisses her, Tyler
never shows up in this movie again.

Emily: I don't even know.

He, he might've been one
of the guys in the woods.

I don't know.

Like there was, he was like basically
crypted at that point, like his

eyes flashed in front of the camera.

I don't know if it was him or
the Moth man, like I don't know

who the fuck was out there.

It was just like, that was so weird.

Jeremy: scene is so bizarre because
I had to rewind it and watch it again

because the scene starts with Gail in
the woods with a flashlight, seemingly

looking for somebody out there.

There's no lead in, she
doesn't hear anything first.

We don't know why she's in the woods
with a flashlight, is just like, is

happening when we, when that scene starts
and I was like, w did I miss something?

Is this

like,

know if the implication was supposed to
be that like after this guy, after the

Tyler, the guy she was into kissed you.

Guess her roommate that she like went
looking for other guys or that she ended

up in this bad situation or what, but like
so little context for something that's

such a big deal in real life and that
this movie seems to decide it wants to

jump in on, but does not do anything with.

Jay: Emily, I think, I think you
made a fantastic point where like

in the real world this is how we
treat, you know, assault, where it'll

come up and then we just have this
attitude of don't talk about it.

I feel like part of the reason that feels
like such a ch a, a cheat in this movie is

because even if that's the direction they
want to go, when it is completely valid

it felt less like, and I'm, and again,
I'm not saying this was the intention,

it felt less like it was bringing it up
as kinda like an important topic and more

like it came up as an excuse to write
the character a Abigail out of the film.

And

that at least mechanically that's what
it felt like, because that's essentially

what the function ended up being.

Like.

It didn't do anything in terms of
developing Abigail as a character.

You know, it didn't do anything
to kind of contrast the story with

Jasmine's, it didn't do, it didn't
even do what I mean the movie

fails on a lot of levels and then.

I think it fails to create a real
concrete, I'll say, freshman experience

in college and the negatives of,
of being a freshman in college.

I, I feel it, it fails to make really
concrete narrative on that part, but in

terms of Abigail, it fails even further
because, you know, again, you are talking

about a lot of the similar lead up that
Jasmine had been being dumped on Abigail,

and then she's just, you know, gone.

She's like, well, well, if
I'm going home that's it.

Morgan: It feels like the movie
has like a lot of deleted scenes

that would've added more context.

Jeremy: a whole other deleted movie

Emily: Yeah.

Morgan: It, it just feels like huge
chunks are missing from the story.

Jeremy: yeah.

Well, I guess on that front would
we still recommend it to people?

Should people check this out?

Morgan: Yeah, I'd still recommend it.

I mean, yeah.

Emily: I would say that if, I mean,
there's a lot of movies that do it

better, unfortunately, you know,
as much as I, I love Hair Wolf,

like I would recommend Hair Wolf.

And, you know, the main reason I'd
recommend this movie is like I said,

you know, if, if you want to just.

immerse yourself in what it's like
to be involved in a lot of those.

I mean, like that's, I, I would
also put that as a caveat, like for,

for content warning, if somebody is
also just really sick of that shit.

But I don't know, I mean, I would
have to put a disclaimer on this.

It's like I would, I would ask somebody
to watch this movie by saying like, I'd

like to talk to you about this movie
and have like a critical discussion

about what this movie did and didn't do.

You know, , in terms of like, I think
it's a great subject for an English class.

So, or like a film studies
class being like, okay, this

movie is trying to do this.

What is it are doing?

But

Jeremy: yeah, I was gonna say, I
wouldn't recommend it to people.

But I did specifically hit up Jay
halfway through the day today and

be like, Hey, do you wanna come
on and talk about this movie?

Because I don't, I don't know if
you've seen it, but like, there's

stuff wrong with it that I really
just can't put my finger on.

Like, I feel like I, I need to talk to
somebody who, who makes movies so they

could be like, Hey, this is, this is
where this movie's gone wildly wrong.

So yeah, I, I don't

think I would

recommend

it

outside of those circumstances.

Morgan: I'd recommend it just because
there aren't enough black horror

movies out there, and a lot of the
ones that are there are not good.

Um, now of course we have Jordan
Peele, so we do have like these

amazing black horror movies.

But for a while there were, there were
not a lot of good ones that were actually

created and directed by black people.

So I would recommend it
just because of that.

Honestly, it's, it's not the worst movie.

It's not even in a bad movie, I think.

And I did like how they handled
microaggressions, how they showed.

, these like little subtle acts of
exclusion kind of build up and it, it's

almost like you're being gaslighted
because you, you, you can barely notice

them, but they keep happening and
they like slowly kind of destroy you.

So for that reason, I'd recommend it,
if you want like a really good movie

that discusses racism, I, I would just
say, look at watch Get Out instead.

Jay: Yeah.

I would not recommend this movie.

I had to say, yeah, , I
would not recommend it.

I do, I did really love Hair Wolff.

I absolutely agree.

I think Hair Wolff is worth checking out.

But there are a lot of reasons
I can't recommend this one.

But the main reason is honestly,
the narrative cohesion.

It, it just feels like one of those
movies that has a lot of like, good

ideas, a lot of intriguing concepts,
but to be entirely honest, a lot of

people in Hollywood have good ideas.

But trying to weave it into, into
a strong lengthy narrative is

a different kind of challenge.

And I, I, you know,
totally check out here.

Well, but I think there are other things
that, that deal similarly with what

master does and kind of, manage it a lot.

Jeremy: Yeah, there's nothing else
that's an unpleasant watch . It's just.

Not fun to watch.

It has a grinding stomach,
churning feeling throughout it.

That is not fully, I think delivered on.

on, on that front, is there stuff people
would like to recommend other than get out

Morgan: And Hair Wolf

Jeremy: and here Wolf?

Yeah.

Jay: I'll, I'll start.

I would actually recommend
the first season.

I think it only has one season
on Netflix of Grand Army.

It's actually set in high school.

But, you know, it's not a horror.

It's a, it's a, a teenage trauma.

But it, it does deal with a lot of the
same content that that master does.

But it's a full season of television,
so every character kind of gets their

proper amount of development and
they're like, Five, six different

stories that are just really kind
of like thoughtful and well gone and

it deals with all of the same stuff.

You know, in terms of being black in
American and being woman in American,

especially, you know, being a young
person and dealing with these issues.

It even deals with being unclear
about what your racial identity is.

It's not a biracial person.

I don't, I don't think if I'm not
misremembering, but it does deal with,

you know what, trying to find your racial
in America means so Grand Army for sure.

The first season, definitely, even
though I think it only has one season

cuz Netflix doesn't like green lighting.

Things that people like.

Emily: Man.

Jeremy: of success.

Emily: Yeah.

Morgan: I would recommend
Horror Noire on Shutter.

If you're looking for themes of
horror and blackness there's a

lot of great discussion around
those topics and recommendations

of good black horror movies that
deal with a lot of these themes.

And if you don't have shutter,
you can always pick up the book.

It's by Dr.

Robin Means Coleman.

It's a great read.

I think they're coming out
with a new addition soon.

So I would recommend that.

Jeremy: Yeah.

And Shutter actually has both
the documentary and they did

a, a series of short films.

With black directors on there,
some of which are really good

and some of which are okay.

I mean, as with any short film anthology,
there's always a few that you're like,

well, that one is less good, but there's
some really solid ones in there too.

Morgan: Oh yeah.

There was a, one of them was
based on a short story by

Emily: Oh, nice.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Emily, what have you got?

Emily: well, I was gonna discuss
a a comic that is the same subject

matter, but it is more of like a
Harry Potter Hogwarts situation.

And it is, it is absolutely
opposite because it's incredibly

unsettle which I think works for it.

And it's called Black Mage.

It's through Oni Press and it's
by Daniel Barnes and DJ Kirkland.

and it's about a kid like entering a, a
very, very white Hogwarts type school.

But in this case the Evil Wizard
Council vens with the uh, k k K, so

there's some, it gets pretty strong
there, but they've got some like the

spirits of, of black American heroes.

And uh, some, some of the same kind of
microaggression discussion in that one.

But I mean, it's, it's
a ya comic and it's fun.

Yeah, Daniel Barnes is great.

He also writes a lot of like
Sonic Sonic the Hedgehog and

Gretz Go and stuff like that.

So check out his stuff.

And then also on the subject of racial
identity Check out born A Crime by

Jeremy: Do you ever know?

Emily: Trevor Noah.

Thank you.

Born a Crime.

The, I've, I've read the book.

I think there's an audio book too.

There might be a, a show about it.

But Trevor Noah, it, it mostly talks
about South Africa rather than America.

But it's still very, very
valid about points about the

experience of biracial identity.

So,

Jeremy: Cool.

I wanna date a couple things that I, I
think I've already recommended before, and

then one that's completely unrelated, but
I just happened to have enjoyed this week.

I, I believe I've recommended Multi
Facial before, which is a short film

by Vin Diesel starring Vin Diesel about
being a multiracial person trying to

get cast in Hollywood and showing up
at you know, one showing up at one

thing, trying to get cast as Latino.

And the next one is Italian.

The next one is black.

And the fact that nobody really
knows, knew, knew, or knows

where to put him in things.

Also, if, if the idea of racism as a
haunting is something that you really like

and you wanna see it done better the new
candyman from last year is really good

and does that quite a bit better than,
than this movie managed to pull off.

But you know, it's, you know, kind of
specific to Chicago and has a lot more

to do with policing and things like that.

But yeah, it's it's done really
interestingly and, and was one of

those that at the end of it I was
like, I'd absolutely recommend

this as Claire to this film.

And then completely unrelated,
but I literally just finished

watching it this morning.

It's on Netflix now, glass Onion the
second, the second Knives Out movie

which does star fairly prominently.

Janelle Monet doing great work.

It's an exceptional cast.

There's nobody in this movie if it
isn't a home run for me, including

Dave Patista playing an extremely
unlikable character Edward Norton,

basically playing Elon Musk.

Emily: and Joseph Gordon
Lovett as the Dong

Jeremy: yes, it's just
saying the word dong.

Yeah.

Ethan Hawk is in this movie
for 15 seconds, I think.

But like, yeah, it's, it's
incredibly well put together.

It's a good, fun, enjoyable
crime mystery story.

And if you enjoyed, you
know, Manuel Blanc in.

In Knives Out, which was one of my
favorite movies the year that came out.

This one is on the same level
and it has the same mix of like

fun and crime and mystery to it.

And so it's light lightened me
up after watching Master, which

is a thoroughly unfun movie.

Emily: also has some great
revelations about Manuel

Block, but I won't say anything

Jeremy: Yes, yes..

Alright well that does it for us.

Before we wrap up Morgan,
can you let people know where

they can find you online?

Morgan: Sure.

You can.

Me at diversity horror, all one
word on Twitter, assuming it's

still working by the time this airs.

Or you can find me at diversity horror
dot lop spot.com where you can read

my review of diverse horror fiction.

Jeremy: Fantastic.

And Jay, what about you?

Where can people find you online?

Jay: People can reach me.

Cynical angst on Twitter and you
can also forward all inquiries.

Question what?

Whatever to JJ 20 columbia.edu.

Jeremy: Fantastic.

As for the rest of us, you can find Emily
at Mega Moth on Twitter mega underscore

moth on Instagram and@megamoth.net.

Ben's not here tonight, but you
can find all of their stuff at

Ben the Con on Twitter and at
their website@benconcomics.com.

And finally for me, you can find me on
Twitter and Instagram at j Rome 58 and

on my website@jeremywhitley.com where you
can check out everything that I write.

The podcast is also on Patreon
if you wanna support us and

help us continue to grow.

And we're
also@progressivelyhorrified.transistor.fm

and on Twitter at Prague Horror Pod,
where we'd love to hear from you.

Speaking of loving to hear from
you, we would love it if you would

rate and review this show wherever
you're listening to it right now.

Giving us five stars reviews,
helps us to reach more people and

helps us again, continue to grow.

Thanks again so much for Jay
and Morgan for joining us.

Guys.

This was really

Emily: guys,

Jay: you for having me.

Emily: so much.

Morgan: Yes, it was great.

Thank you.

Jay: and before I jump off, I
will say I do at least think uh,

Diallo is a director to watch.

Morgan: Yes.

Jay: this story did have a lot
of interesting elements here.

Wolf is a great movie, so I
think we're gonna be seeing her

name some more in the future.

Morgan: Mm-hmm.

Emily: hope so.

Jeremy: not to like, I know this could
be taken as feeling kinda negative, but

I feel like she could benefit from being
the writer or director on a story and

like working with somebody else on, on,
some, as somebody who loves having editors

and artists and people to like, tell me
when I've got too much stuff going on.

And, and you know, pick point
out things that need to be fixed.

This movie felt like a movie
that could have used a little

more editing and oversight.

Emily: That's my old art instructor
used to say, you know, we get the

bad ones out so we can make the, cuz
we only have so many bad ones in us.

So you get the bad ones out.

And then the only, the good ones.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Thanks again for all of you for listening.

Thanks as always for Emily for joining,
and until next time, y'all stay horrified.

Alicia: Progressively horrified
was created by Jeremy Whitley

and produced by Alicia Whitley.

This episode Featured Jeremy,
Emily, Jay and Morgan.

All opinions expressed by the
commentators are solely their own

and do not represent the intent or
opinion of the filmmakers nor do they

represent The employers institutions
or publishers of the commentators.

Our theme music is epic darkness
by mario khol 06 and was provided

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If you liked this episode you can support
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Thanks for listening Bye.