Last Night in Soho (aka Dame Maggie Smith's Prop Knife) with Joe Corallo

The Horror Squad and special guest Joe Corallo (Mine! Anthology, She Said Destroy) discuss Last Night in Soho.

Alicia: Hey, just a heads up.

The episode you're about to listen to
is about last night and Soho directed

by Edgar Wright and written by Edward
Wright and Christy Wilson curtains.

Some relevant trigger warnings for this
movie include extensive sexual trauma

and violence and discussion of suicide.

And our hosts ranked this movie
as existentially disconcerting.

If you'd like to learn more
about the movie, discuss this

evening, please visit our website.

Progressively horrified.transistor.fm
for show notes.

After the spooky music, we'll
talk about the movie in full.

So before award, there will be spoilers.

Jeremy: Good evening and welcome to
Progressively Horrified the podcast

where we hold horror to progressive
standards it never agreed to.

Tonight, we're talking about a movie
that came out this year from one of the

gang's favorite directors and starring
a team of Progressively Horrified

all stars- it's Last Night in Soho.

I am your host, Jeremy Whitley.

And with me tonight, I have a
panel of cinephiles and cenobites.

First, they're here to challenge
the sexy werewolf/ sexy vampire

binary, my cohost Ben Kahn.

How are you tonight, Ben?

Ben: Awww yeah!

Who's ready for me to bring up my study
abroad in London to an obnoxious degree?

Jeremy: Aren't we always?

Also with us, the cinnamon roll
of cenobites, our co-host Emily

Martin, how are you tonight, Emily?

Emily: I'm really happy that
this movie addresses the true

monster of our present day media.

And that is the white British man.

Excuse me.

The old white, British man.

Ben: I thought you were
gonna specifically say ex Dr.

Who actors.

Jeremy: I mean, some of the
scariest villains of recent-.

Ben: Is anyone going
to stop Peter Capaldi?

Jeremy: How can we stop him?

And our guest, Eisner and GLAAD nominee,
uh, Ringo winning comic book editor uh,

writer of She Said Destroy and Becstar,
co-writer of Seeds of Eden and The

Never-Ending Party, it's Joe Corallo.

Joe!

So glad to have you back.

Joe: Thanks.

It's great to be back.

Last time we got to talk about
uh, you know, Clive Barker stuff.

So yeah.

Now we're uh, now we're onto Edgar Wright

Emily: The logical
progression you would say.

Joe: Yeah, that's a logical.

I feel like, you know, like,
like, It goes by chronology here.

Jeremy: Almost anything we
chose would be less weird and

more coherent than Nightbreed.

Ben: Was anyone else still though?

Just waiting the whole movie for the
Nick Frost cameo that never came?

For a while I'm like, okay,
he's gotta be here somewhere.

He is gonna be like a fun sixties dancer.

And then we started getting montages
and I'm like, ooh, I really hope

we don't get the cameo here.

And then we got to the end.

I'm like, I don't think Nick
Frost is gonna be in this movie.

Emily: Every white dude in
this movie was fucking evil.

Ben: So evil.

Emily: Yeah.

So.

Joe: But, you know what kills me though
is every time I see Terence Stamp in

a movie I always think to myself, man,
that's a guy who years ago got the call

from his agent that they were gonna do
a new Star Wars movie, and he was like,

here's the second wind to my career.

Chancellor Valorum.

This is gonna go great.

And yeah.

Jeremy: Poor dude.

Emily: Poor guy.

Ben: He's just wait, Terence Stamp's,
just waiting at the phone, like trading

emails with Michael Shannon being
like any day now Into the Zod-iverse.

They're gonna green light it.

Mm-hmm.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Okay.

So, I'm gonna jump into the basics here.

We're gonna do a quick recap of,
of what went down in the movie.

I drew the short straw this time.

So, this is as we mentioned already
directed by Edgar Wright uh, who you

may know from directing Shaun of the
Dead or Hot Fuzz or Scott Pilgrim vs The

World or Baby Driver or The World's End.

It is written both by Edgar Wright and
Krysty Wilson Cairns who also uh, wrote

1917 and a bunch of Penny Dreadful.

It's stars all stars of this podcast,
Thomasin McKenzie, who you may know

as being the teenage version of the
girl in Old, Anya Taylor-Joy, who

was in The Witch, Dame Diana Rigg
who was not in anything we've talked

about yet, but was in The Avengers,
the original one, with the top hat

and all, and uh, Game of Thrones.

And of course, Matt Smith, our former Dr.

Who, and Terence Stamp, General
Zod, so that both The Doctor and

General Zod are in this movie and in
what was the surprise to me Michael

Ajao who was in Attack the Block.

He is menace uh, and he is, is back
to be uh, super sweet in this movie.

Ben: What?

That!

I did not know that.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Also more soaking aliens
with, with gasoline.

That's him.

Ben: Also more proof that Old and M.

Night Shyamalan are uniquely terrible.

Cause Thomasin McKenzie?

Fantastic.

In this film.

Jeremy: Yeah.

I literally, in the middle of, of this
movie, I was like, I don't think I've ever

seen Thomasin McKenzie in anything before.

She's really good.

Let me look her up on IMDb.

And the first thing that shows up
after this is Old and I was like, no!

Ben: Wild.

Like I knew I recognized
her from somewhere.

My jaw just dropped when you said
like from Old, I'm like, holy fuck.

Jeremy: Um,

Emily: Joe, have you seen Old?

Joe: I have not.

I've watched video essays
on and I'm aware of it.

I haven't seen an M.

Night Shyamalan movie
since I wanna say Signs.

I think Signs was the one where
I was like, you know what?

I'm good now.

Emily: Yeah.

That's a good-

Jeremy: I think Signs is where to stop.

Emily: Yeah.

Ben: To both Joe and the listener, if you
haven't listened to our episode on Old.

I definitely don't recommend you
watch Old, but give it a listen.

If you wanna see what watching Old
does to a brain and it's not pretty.

Emily: And our episode's shorter than
the actual movie, so just listen to that.

Jeremy: We've watched some
wild things over this podcast.

That was the first one where
I was like, I don't want to

talk about this movie anymore.

I don't want it to exist.

I hate it.

It's so bad.

Ben: But tonight we're talking
about Last Night in Soho, a movie

I don't hate and I'm glad exists.

Emily: I love this movie.

I'm fresh off this movie.

Like there, like half an hour
ago, I finished the movie

and I'm still feeling it.

So I'm really raring to go.

Jeremy: Okay.

We started out, we meet Eloise, a
country girl, excited about fashion

and excited to see the big city who
happens to have a little gift of

connecting with the dead, including
seeing her dead mom around Ooh, spooky.

We get a letter from college in London.

She's been admitted to the
fashion design program.

Uh, So she hop a cab and then
a train and then another cab.

Edgar Wright love his musical montages,
so we get lots of music over traveling.

Uh, The vast majority of her interaction
with the men of London are loaded

with menace in this movie, including
this uh, cabbie who is no exception.

While hauling her stuff to her
room, we meet John, a nice boy who

offers to help, but she's already
conditioned not to trust anybody.

Then we meet Jocasta, the worst roommate
in the history of humans cohabitating

who, within minutes of meeting her,
has unhooked the fire alarm so she can

smoke in the room, drinks heavily, does
Coke, insults Eloise, insists that she's

trying to get attention by mentioning
that her mom committed suicide, bullies,

Eloise into going out in Soho, brings
a boy back to the room to have loud

sex, and apparently has invited half of
London to party in their common area.

Meanwhile, Eloise is seeing ghosts in
Toucan Pub, creepily uh, watching old

men on the street and being forced
out of her room by the loud sex.

So she ends up sleeping in the common
room where she meets John again,

who was accidentally stolen her Coke
from the fi fridge and feels bad now.

She wakes up late for class
and immediately decides to

look for new accommodations.

She actually finds an ad for someone
renting a room, not far away.

This is where we meet Ms.

Collins.

An old lady who has lived
in the house for years.

First as a servant and
later as a landlady.

She has a lot of rules about male guests
and smoking and all those things, none

of which Eloise minds, but also warns
her about the odd smells in the French

restaurant next door and how she isn't
going to change anything in the room.

So get used to it.

Eloise is fine with all of that.

That night uh, when she turns on the
music and covers herself in the sheet,

she finds herself transported to the
same house in Soho, but in the 1960s.

She is sharing space?

A body?

Consciousness?

With a beautiful young
wannabe singer named Sandy.

Sandy wants a spot singing at this club.

But instead she gets Jack.

Jack is something of a rep, an agent
and is immediately charmed by Sandy.

They have a sexy dance.

It's worth mentioning this dance scene
is one of the most amazingly like

choreographed steady cam film scenes I've
ever seen, where they keep switching out

Thomasin McKenzie and the Sandy character
and it's done really, really well.

Jack and Sandy make out aggressively in
a phone booth and run out into the night.

Jack takes her back to her place where
Eloise watches her lie down in the same

room and bed where Eloise is sleeping.

When she goes touch Sandy, she
suddenly wakes up back in her time.

Uh, Sandy's fashion inspires
Eloise to make a new dress.

It impresses John who is trying to
make up for the bad first impression

by offering to take her out.

But Sandy has other plans tonight.

Also the Hickey Jack gave Sandy
has showed up on Eloise's neck.

Creepy, but never entirely followed up on.

She covers up in the bed and heads back
to the sixties where Jack has arrived late

to pick Sandy up, but is taking her for
an audition at the Rialto which she Aces.

Sandy gets the part and then
takes Jack back to her room.

Uh, When Ellie wakes up, she decides to go
get her hair dyed and styled like Sandy's

and gets some clothes worthy of Sandy.

They cost a mint, so she decides
she needs to get a job at the pub.

She.

Yeah, she started getting the attention
of strange, a strange old silver haired

man played by Terence Stamp and she
is excelling at school and making this

dress she's the envy of her class.

But back in the sixties,
it's not so great.

The part Sandy got is as a
wind up toy girl in a sexy

review at a gentleman's club.

Not only that, but Jack is literally
trying to pimp her out to rich old men.

She refuses at first, but Jack
persuades her that this is her

only way to go to get anywhere.

And suddenly we're in a nightmare hallway
full of wind up girls getting stripteases

and blow jobs and doing heroin.

It gets real bad, real quick.

Eloise wakes up, freaks out
and goes to rip up her designs

disenchanted with the sixties.

Now she's struggling and working late
at the pub when John encourages her

to confide in him, but she can't.

Meanwhile, the creepy gray-haired
man is talking to her and knows

things about her, that he shouldn't
including his, including her name.

Now she doesn't wanna go to sleep.

And when she does things are bad,
Jack is pushing her around and

passing her around Sandy around
to all of these influential men.

And they're all blurring together.

All these men say that she has
a lovely name, even though she

keeps giving them different names.

They all pay to sleep with her.

They become sort of faceless except
for the one man who was clearly

a cop that tries to tell her that
she's too good for all of this

and should get away while she can.

But she doesn't.

And these rough men start fading
into faceless creatures that mutter

the same words and go through
the same motions, menacingly.

Uh, So the next day Ellie is
thrilled when John asked her to

go out somewhere uh, because she
doesn't wanna go back to her bed.

She'd rather go anywhere but home.

Uh, But her good time is broken up
by the appearance of these faceless

men who start showing up around,
bleeding into her modern life,

freaking her out, understandably.

Uh, She runs from them and John.

I just wanna say there's a lot of
bad guys in this movie and a lot of

bad guys in a lot of horror movies.

John has the patience of a goddamn
Saint um, because he follows her

even though she's freaking out,
gives her space, gives her distance.

Makes sure she's okay.

Then she kisses him and asks him to
sneak back to her place with him.

And this is where shit really gets rough
because as soon as they're back in a room,

John is, is on top of her, they're making
out things are good, except for she starts

hallucinating this vision of Jack on
top of Sandy trying to stab her and hold

her down, declaring that she's his Ellie
fully freaks out on John accidentally

breaks the mirror uh, and sees this bloody
Sandy as Jack attacks her with the knife.

The landlady enters because of
all the noise and tosses John out.

John stumbles, barefoot through
broken glass, which again, that,

that part has never followed on.

I was like, this guy's,
this poor kid is gonna die.

But he's fine, uh, Cuz
the movie's not about him.

Ellie then spends the rest of the
night in a fetal position in the tub.

The next day, she reports the apparent
60 year old murder to the police.

And that goes about as
well as you would expect.

She goes to class afterwards and
apologizes to John, but then she

sees faceless men and runs away.

Uh, She heads to the library to try
and find the full name so that the

police can figure out who Sandy was.

They can try and solve Sandy's murder.

John arrives, again, to help.

All this is stopped without any solution.

When she sees the faceless man,
faceless men everywhere, nearly stabs

Jocasta in the face with fabric shears.

John tries to stop Jocasta from
calling the cops while Ellie runs

away being chased by faceless men.

Uh, She then sees Terence Stamp again.

She is convinced now that he is
Jack and she sort of chases him

back to the pub and tries to get
him to confess to Sandy's murder.

He admits that he knew her.

He says that Ellie needs to talk to Alex
if she wants to know who killed Sandy.

She follows him out into the
street uh, where he turns to tell

her off and gets hit by a car.

We learned from the bartender that this
in fact is the cop guy that we met briefly

earlier that was trying to convince Sandy.

And not Jack at all.

Ellie finally taps out.

She's had it.

She calls her Gran and decides
she's going back to Cornwall.

John volunteers to give her a
ride, but first they have to

stop by the flat to tell Ms.

Collins they're going.

Collins tells her to come in.

She's made her some tea and to get the
mail that she's left there for her.

We see Ellie sorting through the
mail and we can clearly see that

the mail is addressed to Alexandra
Collins, which we've already learned

that Alexandra is Sandy's real name.

And this is the, the first time we've,
we've seen that connection on screen.

It turns out that the cops actually
came here earlier following

up on Ellie's report because
they were worried about her.

And it reminded Ms.

Collins of something because she
had a, they were asked if a girl

had died here and she says that
in fact, a girl did die here.

It was her younger self.

You see, Jack threatened to kill her.

Threatened to slit her throat.

So she stabbed him in the
fucking throat and hid the body.

And then she kept seeing the clients
that he had set her up with and

murdered them and stuck them in the
walls and the floors of this house

because it's what they deserved.

But she knows Ellie, isn't going
to tell anyone else this, because

she has poisoned Ellie's tea.

John came to, as he stumbles up to
the front door and asks for Ellie

Ellie summons enough strength to warn
John that she is going to kill him.

John does the exact same thing as handsome
boyfriend in Crimson Peak, gets stabbed

in the stomach and proceeds to bleed
for the rest of the climax of the movie.

Sandy then tries to stab the
fully hallucinating Ellie, who's

seeing a creepy eternal staircase.

The hands of the dead men buried in
the walls are grabbing her from all

around, pulling her down on the bed.

They are begging her to help
them uh, and to kill Sandy.

Help she refuses.

Now the house is on fire
and the cops are on the way.

Sandy refuses to apologize for what she's
done, and Ellie doesn't want her to.

Ellie gives her a hug and tells
her she knows about all the things

that happened to her and uh,
you know, apologizes for them.

But uh, the cops are on their way and
Sandy ain't going to no fucking jail.

So she tells Ellie to get John
and get out and then sits down on

the bed and proceeds to burn to
death in the middle of her house.

We jump forward in time to Ellie
having a successful fashion show

inspired by these designs of Sandy.

She's friends with all the
girls now except Jocasta

who's still the fucking worst.

Everything is good.

Except also Ellie is still seeing
her visions of her mother, but now

Sandy is in the mirrors as well.

And that's the end of the movie.

The end?

Yes.

Emily, I see you have your hand up.

Emily: Yes.

Okay.

So one of the things that struck me about
the end of the movie- the models who were

wearing Ellie's outfits were trans women.

British media is such a shit
show right now, when it comes

to the trans conversation.

That's important to me because I know
that like some of the stuff in space,

which is where I first really encountered
Edgar Wright and his Uber was pretty

transphobic, but, you know, it was 1999.

Not that that's an excuse, but it was
heartbreaking to see at that point.

But it was really cool to see that
representation, even though it was

like very, very small, in the film.

And also the presentation of these trans
women in these outfits was like really

incredible and like body positive.

That was actually one of the things
that affected me the most emotionally,

cuz I'm like, thank God, cuz you
know, these days, all of our favorite

British actors, you never know.

And it's not just the British.

Ben: Or anybody, just people.

Anybody.

People just- havn't we learned by now that
just anyone could be a fucking monster?

Emily: Yeah.

Well when Diana Re's character, when Ms.

Collins first showed up, I'm like either
this woman is amazing or she's a TERF.

Ben: Okay.

Emily: When I see old
British ladies in media...

.
Ben: This is a movie starting
Anya Taylor-Joy and Matt Smith.

This is Thomasin McKenzie in a star making
leading performance, but the MVP, the

eternal star of this movie and my heart,
the forget Captain America, the true

first Avenger, Diana fucking Rigg in her
last performance being a goddamn legend.

Jeremy: And this came out posthumously
so, you know they, they filmed it and

she, she died before it was ever released.

Ben: Like when this movie started,
I was feeling myself like, okay,

Diana Rigg is like old landlady.

Hey, okay.

woulda wished for something
grander for Diana Rigg's last

role, but it is what it is.

And then when they revealed that
fuck off Diana Rigg's the killer!

I'm like, hell yes, this is everything.

Diana Rigg, as the killer was incredible.

That's like Scream movie level
reveal where it's like, yes.

Now this incredible actor
gets to go buck fucking wild.

Emily: It was awesome.

And I was really afraid cuz like
there was a lot of back and forth.

There was a lot of emotional
like, pong being played.

Ben: I have a drink here to you.

Diana Rigg salud tu familiia.

Fast and furious.

Emily: Salud.

Skol.

Jeremy: Yeah.

I, I have to admit, there was a point
in the climax of this movie where

they revealed that like Sandy, the
character we've been following, who has

been victimized throughout is a serial
killer that I was like, I don't know

if I like where we're going with this.

The point I think that sold it for me
is, you know, when she, after she chases

Ellie upstairs when like these dead
men are like begging with her to kill

Sandy because, I guess, they're trapped
there haunting the place and El who's

experienced all of this is like, fuck,
no, like you guys are the bad guys here.

Like, yeah.

She did something terrible, but
like you guys had it coming.

Ben: Now, how can you not be a thousand
percent on board for killing Jack?

That's straight up self defense.

That's permissible in fucking
legal, even in legal terms.

And I get what you mean about, Ooh,
what does her killing all these

other people do to her character?

Do to the themes?

But I have to be honest, for me,
at least that all takes a backseat

to, Ooh, this is what gets us
to Diana Rigg being the killer.

And yeah, fucking yeah.

What, whatever gets us to Diana
Rigg straight up, like again,

Ghostface style, stabbing people.

Holy shit, am I in for.

What- whatever it takes to get
Diana Rigg to this, I'm in.

Joe: Yeah, there are so many
things to talk about this movie.

For me, I've seen this before I
saw this in theater, so this was

the second time I've seen this.

And um, there's some stuff going on.

Like it's well, shot, well acted.

But for me, there were some elements in
the script, like you were saying where it

was kind like, Ooh, where's this going?

And some of those moments where
it's like, oh, she's killed.

Like one thing that like, it's
like two seconds and I kind of

wish they took it out of the movie.

It's a quick clip.

In that room, like in her room is a
picture of her looking exactly like Sandy.

And the thing that kills me about that
is I'm like, Are you, I hate in, hate's

a strong word, but in movies it could
be frustrating for me sometimes when

there's that little thing where it's
like, so you're telling me if she, at

any point in living there knocked on her
door and just like asked to borrow sugar

or something she'd've figured it out?

Like that, that kind of stuff is like,

Emily: I mean, she could've figured
it out when she was like remembering.

Joe: Oh yes.

Yeah, sure.

But like-

Ben: I also love.

Joe: Yeah.

Ben: Now again, I don't know if this
is a Cinema Sins style plothole.

Oh, dunk!

Or just a great fucking dig on
French people from an Englishman.

What I love that they're excused
for covering up the smell of

corpses is French bistro next door.

It's not rotting human flesh.

Just French food.

Jeremy: Yeah.

That's-.

So that's one of the things in this
movie that, that I wanted to talk about

in that, it has these like Poirot, like
telltale things in the movie that it's

like, oh, if you've been paying enough
attention, you would've known this.

You would've seen this thing.

But you don't know that you're supposed
to be looking for those sort of things.

You don't know that there is a
mystery until about 15 minutes

from the end of the movie.

Joe: Yeah.

Jeremy: And even then you
don't think it's a mystery.

Um, But they've put in like
things that I don't know, explain

or hint at things throughout.

And there was just a little bit of like,
I wasn't sure some of the stuff landed for

me because it felt like the movie didn't
know what the genre of the movie was?

They- They have the recurring Terence
Stamp character and nobody ever says

anything about that until like, she is
just suddenly sure that he's Jack like,

yeah, obviously, you know, as a, as a
person watching it, you're like an old

creepy man who's thin and a ladies, man?

Hmm.

Ben: Also Terence Stamp
at 85 looking great.

Jeremy: Oh yeah.

Emily: Yeah.

Jeremy: And of course the, the moment
you see Terence Stamp in a movie,

you're like, that must be a villain.

So there there's a lot of stuff like that,
that it's like they would be earmarks.

They would be things that, you know,
you could say, oh, I, I solved the

thing early, cuz I saw this thing and
I realized this and figured this out,

but then you don't like, you don't know,
you're supposed to be figuring it out.

Just like, yeah, you don't know that
there's a picture on the other side of

that, you know, door of, of her as Sandy.

And like you, you have no reason to look
for it or see it until it's it's there.

Ben: I think why, and this might
be real presumptuous of me, I think

there's one particular reason why for
this movie, as much as it has great

directing great acting killer vibes,
I've never seen Euphoria, but I'm pretty

sure, is this a Euphoria, especially
the bed with the crystal staircase

that has to be a Euphoria, right?

Never seen the show.

But anyway, I feel like there's a bit
of a mismatch between the plot and the

theme and why I think while this movie
is really satisfying and good in a lot of

ways, I think, again, having just seen it
a few minutes ago and still processing I

think it kind of maybe misses its Mark
A little bit or why it's not a fully

satisfying experience is- and again,
this is my super subjective take on it.

I might be totally off fucking
tell me I'm a piece of shit if I'm

like just totally misreading this.

I think that, the main theme
of the movie is the male gaze.

And yet despite that being the
threat, the overwhelming presence,

the theme of the movie, it is not
what the antagonistic force actually

is in the climax of the movie.

It is a completely different threat.

Jeremy: Yeah.

I There, there's some things about this
movie that I don't think completely

gel and that's that's one of them.

There's so much menace from men
in this movie and an entirely

realistic and justified way.

It's not somebody inserting
things that aren't there.

This cat, Jack, is very real to me.

And like that scene
plays very fucking scary.

Ben: Jack is so insidious and scary.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Jack feels very real to me.

Like that's a real guy.

Ben: Oh yeah.

Jeremy: Also like I love Edgar Wright,
and this sort of um, coy, fun, vibe of

his, where he loves to like match music to
every scene and just give like chill vibes

in the same way that you get'em in, you
know, Baby Driver, it kind of works cuz

it's an action movie and they just like,
they time everything in the action to

the, the music and it's like, okay, cool.

But this is like, these fun sixties
rock songs and it, feels like very

chill, but then it's like also this is a
movie that is substantially about rape.

And it's like, when you get to
that, you're like, I don't feel

like that chill vibe was right.

Ben: It's a bit of like a, oh yeah.

Now here comes the fun music for the soul
crushing non-consensual sex work montage.

Jeremy: Yeah.

And there's a lot of like me wanting
to punch people in this movie.

Like the moment that that dude
pulled the headphones off of her

head and was listening to her music.

And then like, was like,
you like this shit?

I was like, I want to hit that guy!

Ben: Okay.

So that-.

Emily: How dare he?

How- I'm sorry.

I'm sorry, Ben, I just have to
say: how dare he fucking shame

her for listening to The Kinks?!

That dude should-.

That dude's in fucking art school.

That dude needs to go home!

Ben: That's the thing!

I spent a lot of nights of college
doing nothing but smoking weed and

listening to music with my friends.

Anyone who's rocking like sixties
classic rock that fucking deep cut is

getting nothing but pure fucking respect.

Emily: Fuck yeah!

Fuck.

Yeah.

I mean, I get Jocasta why she's
mad because she's like, oh shit,

I'm dealing with a real one
here better step up my game.

Ben: When Jocasta came in, I
really thought we were getting.

Nightmare on Elm Street 2 scenario
where it's like, Ooh, it's gonna

seem like a bully, but really
be a homoerotic friendship.

And then like five minutes away.

I'm like, ah, no, she's
just the fucking worst.

Emily: Absolutely.

Well, did you notice that Jocasta and
her crew at the Halloween ball were all

dressed up as characters from The Craft?

Ben: Amazing.

Emily: Yeah.

Yeah, she was of course.

Jocasta was um, Nancy.

Jeremy: it's Jocasta would think
Nancy's the hero of that movie.

Emily: Nancy is the hero of that movie.

Are you kidding me?

We had a whole podcast about it.

Jeremy: I know, I know.

Emily: Yeah.

But-.

Jeremy: Nancy should be
the hero of that movie.

She's not because she takes a weird
180 degree turn in the third act.

Emily: That's true.

That's what happens in this movie
where it's like, You have this

movie that is a conversation about
problematic nostalgia and usually a

movie that has, that is about, this
takes a lot longer for that to happen.

You know, that's what the movie is.

This movie is a lot more than that
because the problematic nostalgia thing

is like the end of the first act, right?

Or the beginning of the second act like
you, you know, she has this dream and

she's so involved and then like dream
two or three that's when she's like,

oh fuck, this is not what I wanted.

um, And then we get into
this, mystery thriller.

For me, it didn't take
me out of it so much.

One, because I had an inkling,
well, a, I knew it was a horror

movie, but two, a lot of the music
that they played was very specific.

And especially when I'm listening to
music that Edgar Wright puts in a movie

I know that there's a message there.

Like he's talking to me, he's
talking to other people too.

It's not just like my psychic connection
with him, but that's a different thing.

Um, But those specific songs are
meant to evoke bitter sweetness.

Ellie's character is so involved with this
idealized version of the sixties and Soho.

Jeremy: Yeah.

I think, I think you're dead on about
the, like the message of this movie

being about sort of this toxic nostalgia.

That is, that is almost a thing that, Like
you said, it's, it's hit almost in act.

One is like, she is so
excited about the sixties.

She's like, can you imagine living in
Soho in the sixties, it would be so great.

And like, this movie is, is very much
about the way that like those systems,

chewed people up and spat 'em out in,
you know, the same way that London in,

I guess the eighties chewed up and spat
out her mom and then like, you know, or I

guess probably the nineties given her age.

Joe: Yeah.

Jeremy: And then, you know, it's, it's
trying to do the same thing to her.

It, it's a very interesting switch of
it going from like, oh, I love London.

And I wanna reclaim this like sixties cool
vibe to like having to find this, this

way to embrace and, and love this person
who was, who was chewed up by that system.

. The parts that were most effective
to me were both of the hugs.

You know, there's a moment where Sandy
is like just going completely numb in

the, the club, talking to these guys.

And like, Ellie gets so upset that
she like punches her way through

this window to to grab Sandy.

And then like, she, you know, she does
the same thing literally in the end.

You know, Sandy is convinced that she
is going to see her as a monster and

that she's going to want to turn her in.

And that Ellie is like, I
know what you went through.

Like you're not a monster.

And hugs her is like, it's
a really affecting moment.

As I was watching that last scene and
I was like, I don't, I don't know.

And then, you know, she makes that
turn and just like tells, it, tells

the ghost to go fuck themselves
and hugs the murderer instead.

I was like, all right.

All right.

You got me I'm back.

Emily: Yeah.

Yeah.

Ben: I like, like, I really liked how
Eloise at no point ever, even while

being poisoned and slashed at ever
loses just utmost empathy for Sandy.

Joe: Now, when they reveal that, you
know, Sandy is the, this killer and that

she's presumably a serial killer that
she's killed a lot of guys throughout

the movie, we are under the impression.

At least I was, I think what they were
getting across was that a lot of these

people have money or in power can like
sort of buy and sell women as they please.

And yet she's successfully able
to wipe out like a percentage.

She might have murdered like 1%
of the like elite men in like the

Soho area who, who were doing this.

Ben: Sandy might have single
handedly contributed to like

fighting wealth inequality.

Like the wealth gap might be smaller
in the Soho area solely because of

like how much of the 1% she murdered.

Joe: So it's like, so for me-.

Ben: Murder as a way of economic
redistribution, wait a minute.

I feel like someone's tried this before.

Joe: We're basically told, and,
historically accurately that someone

like Sandy wouldn't have any agency,
and yet she's able to pull this off

without any repercussions until another
woman gets involved in her life.

And for me, this is part of where,
things kinda get a little muddy,

like, like we were talking about.

So I, I'm just curious what you all
think in terms of it, does it, is it

hard to suspend your disbelief that
she got away with it, considering

the people that she did kill?

Cuz she apparently killed a lot
of people with a lot of money.

Or...

does this provide a subversion that
works because it's a fictionalized Soho.

Ben: For me, at least, a, The movie
runs so much on vibes that my suspension

of disbelief towards just about
everything is higher than normal.

This movie was less scary
than just vibey for me.

To me that wasn't a distraction that
she got away with it just because

of how utterly disposable and
forgettable she was in their lives.

It made sense to me how easily she'd
be able to just like disappear.

I mean, maybe it's a little
UN unrealistic, but I

don't know I was vibing!

Jeremy: Yeah.

I think we get a, a picture of this,
like underworld in these alleyways

and these clubs of like, her her
time in Soho, that like anything can

happen and people can just disappear.

You know, people will intentionally
disappear to go, you know, visit her

or to go, you know, get, get blow
jobs backstage that like, you know, by

the time that somebody realized they
were missing, there would be no way

to tell where they had gone missing.

Ben: I feel like there'd even be
like a misogynistic element to it

where it's like, oh, well, surely
not this like young blonde woman.

Like she surely couldn't have
overpowered and killed all these men.

That's ridiculous.

Emily: I mean, it's a good point.

You know, a lot of white men going
missing, you know, the Bobbies

would probably take notice of
that if somebody, but I mean also

were in a, a little bit more of an
underbelly, as you said, Jeremy.

Because, you know, she wanted to
be a star at Café de Paris and she

became a variety show backup dancer
and ultimately an unpaid sex worker

or, you know, exploited sex worker.

Ben: One of the other sides of the
story is just the fil- is just Terence

Stamp's character having a straight
up fucking film noir, realizing that

Sandy is the killer and then deciding
what to do with that knowledge.

Emily: Yeah.

That was a whole different movie.

He like came in from a different
movie over here and he is like,

oh, you're in this commentary.

Sorry.

Sorry.

Well, I'll see you.

I'll go die later on my
fucking misogyny over here.

Ben: Somewhere the film noir podcast
is doing like real weird how Terence

Stamp just like met this lady
from a ghost movie and then got

hit by a car in the movie ended.

Emily: I looked up the castlist before
I watched the movie just to see what

I was going for because I had only
heard, I, I had heard one thing.

No, I had heard two
things about the movie.

One had Anya Taylor-Joy in two,
Matt Smith is evil and that's

only all I knew about it.

And so I jumped in there and I
saw him listed on the cast list

as Lindsay and I was still.

Wondering like, oh, was it Jack Lindsay?

Ben: Also, like Jack just
feels like such a generic name.

That it felt so easy to be an alias.

Emily: Oh, they, they would
not have cast that dude.

As older Matt Smith.

Ben: I went into this movie knowing
only enough to go, oh, so is this like

midnight in Paris and spoiler alert?

It was not like midnight in Paris.

Emily: Yeah.

Even though he was not Jack, he was
still a shitload of fuck, like that dude.

Ben: Oh, so much.

What this police officer who
just goes around, like what, what

would you even call what he does?

He was very obviously police
flirting with prostitute??

It's like, I don't, I
don't know what call this.

Emily: He was Captain Save-a-Hoe
and if hoe didn't wanna be

saved, then that was her problem.

And, and no one else.

And like, he couldn't
do anything about it.

Ben: Yeah.

Like there there's just
something like, he thinks he's

one step better than the worst.

And that makes him great.

Emily: Yeah.

Ben: And that's the energy he had where
it's like, Ugh, like it's it was, you were

better than Matt Smith that doesn't make
you, that's not a high bar to clear dude.

The only man who isn't an
utter piece of shit is John.

Emily: Yep.

Ben: And John's an angel.

John is a goddamn
wonderful cinnamon angel.

Emily: Good makeup, good clothing.

Ben: Oh, tho those ghost costumes,
he busted those ghost, that

ghost makeup outta nowhere.

And I know they're both fashion
students and yes, it does bother me

that he didn't, we didn't also get to
see his fashion show final at the end.

He was also a student.

Joe: I wish there was like one more
pass on this script, cuz I felt like we

were missing a moment that, you know,
Eloise was like really kind to him or

did something that made it so he would
put up with a lot of what was going on.

Ben: He did put up with a lot.

He is such the anti Chip.

He takes everything in utter
stride and is completely ready

to step up from the word go.

He is delightful and wonderful
and I'm real glad he didn't die.

Emily: I was so scared.

I was so scared that he was
gonna end up being a soft boy.

But no, he's not a soft boy.

He's, he's genuine.

Ben: Also the way he just fucking grabbed
like the scissor wrist and saved Jocasta.

That was some like, Hey,
that's some quick thinking.

Emily: Yeah.

And Jocasta [unintelligible].

Ben: It really wasn't until the end.

Like this was, this was a movie very
late into the movie where I didn't know

how much was actual time travel ghosts
and how much was like Black Swan style.

Like, oh, it actually is in like her head.

Do you feel like we got a good
resolution with the mother or does

that just, or did you, were you just
waiting for there to be some reveal

to what happened to the mother and her
time in London that just never came?

Jeremy: It's less that to me as this
movie makes a feint at addressing

issues of, of mental health.

It's like, yeah, mental
health is a problem.

And people who, you know, come
to the city don't get help.

And the grandma says, you
know, your mom didn't get help.

You can get help, like talk to me.

And, there's a moment of like, oh,
they're going for something here.

But the movie ultimately just seems
like it doesn't have time for that.

Emily: I think it's
better that way though.

Otherwise I don't know, it would, it
would be too much about the character

being defined by her tr like her tragedy.

She's trying to get through the
tragedy and she's also trying to get

through this, the current tragedy.

This isn't a, a Midsummer situation
where the current tragedy is, further

breaking her from the last tragedy.

This is something that she's, she's
learned from her experience with her mom.

The whole trauma competition that happens
with the shitty roommate is- God it's

so- like, I've seen that shit go down.

Ben: I feel like there's another
great movie in this premise, like

from the grandma's point of view.

Just this three generation struggle
with like mental illness and like fa-

and a love of fashion and the way that
unites like three generations of women

and like the real lows, but then it
all comes together in an inspiring show

of grandma and granddaughter at her
successful London, like fashion college.

Like a real kind of, I don't
know, like a Fried Green Tomatoes,

meats, Forrest Gump kind of thing.

Joe: Sure.

Ben: I think, I might not know what
Fried Green Tomatoes is about to be fair.

I might have pulled that
reference outta my ass.

Emily: It's the Forrest Gump one that
I take umbridge with, but continue Joe.

Oh okay.

Ben: Well, I meant that taking place over
a long period of time while being folksy.

Joe: Yeah.

This is a part where again, I wish there
was just like that one more pass on the

script because- this is far from the
worst example, but I feel like it could

have been tightened up a little bit.

When they're talking about mental health
issues, which are, you know, it's a

theme through the movie, it doesn't go
at, like, it doesn't go as like over

the top problematic as other movies
do, but it kinda touches on that.

Like, boy, it's a good thing
that, you know, I have untreated

mental illness or else I wouldn't
have been able to stop this.

Like.

Murder thing kind of, but not really.

Emily: Yeah.

You know, that's a good point
because , they do kind of blend

the issue of mental illness with
her ability to see dead people.

It would be really great if at
some point they disagree was like

these two things don't have much
to do with each other at all.

You know, she's just can see dead people.

Ben: Not to defend the police
in this movie, cuz fuck that.

But it definitely doesn't help Ellie's
case when they ask her you were out

LA at a party last night, is there
any chance someone spiked your drink?

And then she goes uh, has a flashback and
after a long pause follows up with no.

Can we appreciate the massive
fucking brass balls on Ms.

Collins to rent out the room
where she hid all the bodies in?

Emily: That woman?

Has balls of steel.

Ben: I just can't get over the gall
of not only letting people stay

in the corpse room, but charging
money to stay in the corpse room.

Holy fucking shit, Alex Collins.

Like that's crazier than the murder part.

Emily: I mean, there's a lot of
like, Intense badass lady landlords

in the, the Edgar Wright situation.

I, I do appreciate Edgar Wright being
like this old lady will fuck you up.

Ben: I feel like the worst thing
Sandy does in the whole movie,

definitely isn't any of the murders.

It's not telling someone beforehand
before they rent a room and oh, by the

way, there is going to be a giant neon
flashing red, white, and blue light.

That's going to pour into your room
even when the curtains are closed

all night long, fucking diabolical.

Jeremy: That's a no for me.

Ben: If I- imagine, like, I,
I can't fucking diabolical.

Jeremy: I remember-

Emily: Get a goth cloth.

Just get a goth cloth.

Jeremy: No, you can't
change anything in the room.

She doesn't want anything changed.

But I, I remember going to, to Heroes
Con a few years back, and for anybody

who has never been to Heroes, Charlotte
is organized thusly: convention center,

NASCAR Hall of Fame, several hotels.

And there's sort of hotels all around
them, but I was in this hotel next to

the, the NASCAR Hall of Fame and we were
turned towards the NASCAR Hall of Fame.

So there's just like racing lights
around the outside of the NASCAR Hall

of Fame all day and all night long.

So like, it's just, you know, at
the end of the night, no matter

how many blinds you close, there's
still like red and white flashing

lights going by uh, in the night.

And uh, that was hell.

So I can't imagine like
that sign being right there.

Emily: Yeah.

Ben: Well, that was the other thing based
off everything else they've given us,

based off her apparent history of mental
illness with visual hallucinations,

given that she is like credibly, probably
drugged at one point during one of like

her worst experiences, given the giant
flashing hypnotic lights, I'm like if

this is just straight up Black Swan style,
mental breakdown, I would still buy it.

Like, even if this is just her
interpreting her own world through

the stress breaking of 1960s
world, and she's making the whole

thing up, I'm still on board.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Ben: If that's the direction they go.

As it turns out, ghosts are real.

Jeremy: I was thinking
the same sort of thing.

And I was also thinking
about good ol' John, man.

John is down to accept anything.

She is like, I'm seeing ghosts
and I see spirits and shit.

And he is like, you know, my aunt
sees some weird shit sometimes

and like that shit's real.

So like, let's figure this out.

He, he feels like she's saying
that, you know, she, she

doesn't feel like she belongs.

She's, you know, a girl from this
little part of Cornwall and he's like,

yeah, man, I don't feel like I fit
in, in, you know, North London at all.

And she's like, oh, where are you from?

It's just like, oh, South London.

Like, yeah, I'm from literally
the other side of the river.

Ben: Okay.

No, I'm pulling out the, I lived in South
London for a time card that line like,

oh, it's like a whole different world.

North London.

Where are you from South London?

Both very funny and
incredibly fucking accurate.

Jeremy: I also was not sure
whether that was deliberately a

reference to Attack the Block.

Ben: It's just London geography, like
I lived and mostly went to school

in the South London, but I had some
classes in North London and holy fucking

shit, like just different worlds.

If you were from South London, North
London is very, very different.

Emily: You know how in Discworld,
they have Ankh-Morpork and Ankh is

like pretty and Morpork is shitty.

That's what it is.

Jeremy: For people familiar with
the geography of Discworld, but

not the geography of London.

Ben: I guess if you need a New York
comparison, I guess you're comparing

like Queens to the Upper East Side.

Joe: This kinda segues into some of
the like, class elements that get

touched on here, and to some extent,
some of the racial issues as well,

a little bit when it comes to, you
know, John's character, but Ellie is

just sort of like, you have a car.

Like I had no idea like,
why would you have a car?

And he's like, I'm from
a different part of town.

You know, I live all the way there
and she, she doesn't get it at all.

And I kind of enjoy that scene in the
sense that they don't dwell on it.

It's just, she's like
that and then moves on.

Ben: I will say I did have my notes.

I'm like, you could just take The Tube.

It it's great they'll get
you everywhere in that.

Even in the beginning, when she takes
the cab, I'm like, don't do that.

Take The Tube.

Jeremy: I mean, but she does live
in a village in corn wall where

she would not need The Tube.

She would just be able to
walk to everything she needs.

Ben: That's true.

But then she's in London
start learning The Tube now.

She's gonna need it.

Joe: The most jarring sequence with them,
for me, I think was right towards the end

where like, I think I did a double take,
like both times I've seen this movie.

Where, you know, she was just like,
you can't go into that, you know, house

again, because she will murder you.

If I don't come back in 15 minutes, I need
you to go into that house and find me.

And it was like wait, do what?

Like.

Jeremy: Yeah.

There's- I mean, not, not speaking
personally as a black man, but in

this case this white woman has already
chased you out of this place once.

And like, there's a very real chance
that like, if you pop up in here,

whether it's her or the police, like
something bad is gonna happen to you.

That really struck me in the scene
where like she hallucinates, but he

ends up like running through the glass
shards and outta the house barefoot.

They don't really address what happens
to him between that and the next day

when, like they show up in class, but
like, that's a bad fucking night for him.

Ben: Well, that's a,
that's a terrible night.

Emily: That little bit where
the callin says, oh, I'm gonna

call the police and you see his
face drop and his like gut drop.

And he's like, Fuck.

I was expecting him to go out the window
at that point and just climb down.

But he took a lot of that in stride.

And uh, maybe he's going through a
similar story where he's just, you know,

trying to, fit in and you know, dealing
with a lot of this crazy North London shit

He does stick his neck out quite a bit.

And I mean, also at least he,
he did survive that stabbing.

Ben: Yeah.

He takes that knife to a
gut, like a goddamn champ

Joe: As Eloise is drinking poison.

Yeah.

Right.

Ben: She just walks that off.

Joe: Whatever.

Emily: Adrenaline.

Ben: There.

It is a great moment though.

Like cuz I figured there was more
to what was going on with Sandy and

Jack, I figure like, okay, there's no
way it's as simple as just Jack killed

Sandy, got away with it, the end.

It's like there has to be more than that.

I definitely wasn't expecting and
then I killed everyone I ever like

was forced to sleep with and it
really changed the, when she said, if

I see you here again, I'll kill ya.

Because at first you're like, ah,
tough, cute old woman, but also white

lady threatening a black man that,
oh, that doesn't feel that feel.

I get what you're going for.

I'm not sure about it, but
eh, cute old, cute old lady.

And then at the end, then
after you get through, you're

like, oh, she really means it.

She will straight up murder
him and not think twice.

Emily: Remember kids, British
women, especially old white

British women can be evil too.

Ben: Maggie Smith'll cut a motherfucker.

Emily: I want to be her.

When I grow up.

Ben: That the, is that the episode
title, Maggie Smith cuts a motherfucker?

Emily: Maggie Smith could
and ha- could and did.

I 100% believe it.

Ben: Like there is no way some
fucking actor didn't get mouthier

handsy of Maggie Smith and she just
had to fucking just show him how

sharp a prop knife can still be.

Emily: So , I just have to go
back to that end scene because

there was so much whiplash there.

And, I had some buddies over while I was
watching it and they were just hanging

out and then my face, they had like
commented on how my face kept changing.

Cuz it, when I found out that she killed
all the guys, I was like, fuck yes!

Fuck yes!

And then she's like, and
I'm going to kill you too.

And I'm like, no.

Oh no.

Ben: As soon as she said, and I know you
won't tell anyone my, I blurt it out.

Oh no, the coffee.

Yeah.

Or tea,

Emily: Tea.

Hello.

I thought you were in London.

Ben: People drink a shitload
of coffee in London.

I was surprised.

Also I still didn't drink coffee.

I just got real drunk.Then ate like
chicken and mushroom pies at 1:00 AM.

Emily: Did you have pasties?

Ben: I mean, they were there.

I, I usually didn't get.

Emily: Okay.

My family way back is from Cornwall,
but that's a different situation.

Jeremy: Yeah, so I, I feel like talking
about some of our, our points here.

We, we hit these sort of like moments
of it, it makes a feint, I think at

just about all of them at some point.

It doesn't necessarily
connect with all of them.

Like we talked about the mental
health stuff and how, like, it handles

a lot of the trauma stuff really
well, but there's this weird line

of like, is, is she mentally unwell?

Is she having like, uh, issues that she
should be seeing a psychiatrist for?

Or is she a ghost hunter?

It's a little UN uncertain
throughout the thing and you know,

it's, a little dicey in there.

Ben: This one, I feel like played
its cards close to the vest.

Especially cuz there's this
element of just like, oh, well

is she just viewing the past or,
oh no, there's ghosts involved.

Like it's not even clear that like
ghosts are what's going on so much

is just like, oh, it's a time room.

Emily: The, the ghost thing
is definitely her sensitivity.

The grandma acknowledges the,
that she can see dead people.

um, And is supportive about it.

Jeremy: Or has seen dead people.

Ben: Well , the dialogue again
is like, did you see her again?

Which I feel like is just ambiguous.

Like at the time, like when I was
watching I'm like, oh, because you

don't believe her and you think
it's just like hallucinations

or are you cool with ghosts?

And is it ghosts?

Like now in the hindsight, but I
feel like it was an intentionally

ambiguously worded line.

Emily: I mean, I think it was
it, there was a lot going on.

So I think that they didn't
wanna load it up too much, but

I mean, it was already there.

Right?

Ben: I was distracted most for
most of the beginning because I was

obsessed with the newspaper dress.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Emily: Right?!

Ben: It was wonderful.

I loved it.

First I thought, oh my God, the
pen, everyone was like, oh my God.

Actual newspaper.

And then I'm like, is
she an origami wizard?

Jeremy: She is.

It's some real project runway way shit.

It's it's real nice.

Emily: Yeah.

Um,

Ben: Yeah.

I, I feel like, disclaimer, I
don't know how origami works.

Emily: You fold paper.

Ben: That makes sense.

Jeremy: it feels the same
way as it addresses race.

I mean, you have people of color
in the movie specifically, John,

I think is the most prevalent.

He's a very caring and empathetic person,
but to have gone through what he does.

He really takes that in stride in
a way that seems implausible to

me, me in a way that I'm like, I
want to know what happened to him.

I am concerned about this, man.

Ben: He feels a little bit like a
character in a WandaVision loop.

Yeah.

Joe: But, but to sort of add to your
point Jeremy, it, it's interesting.

There are aspects of that that are
well thought out and then aspects that

aren't where they kind of drop the ball.

It's thought out enough that
you get that feeling of tension

when he's caught in that room.

To make it very clear.

That's a problem that could potentially
be even life ending, but then

you don't have that same feeling.

Like again, when you, when you see him
in class the next day acting normal

and not still, you know, recovering
from cut up feet and all of that.

And then Ellie doesn't feel like,
oh my God, I'm so, so I cannot even

imagine what I put you and like, yeah.

So like that's, that's missing,
which then again, adds to why

is he putting up with this?

Like, even if he is empathetic to
the fact that she is going through

something or potentially mentally
ill, that he is not doing more you

know, self care and kind of like.

Hey, I, I wanna be there for you, but I
also have to like, not put myself into

constant life threatening situations

Ben: I think a movie that we watched not
too long ago that maybe did the college

romance in a more and had a couple that
was a little more believable reciprocate

and like, felt like more well-rounded
characters was uh, maybe Happy Death Day.

Emily: It's not Quite as bad
as tokenization, but I think

that they were like, we're
trying to avoid certain tropes.

Do you see the tropes we're
avoiding, please acknowledge

that we're avoiding these tropes.

You know, they, they went a little bit
overboard, which is why I also felt

like he was, you know, I was worried
that he was gonna be, become a soft boy.

Ben: Yeah, there's definitely
also like class dynamics, even in

this fashion school is kind of,
poor kids, good, rich kids, bad.

Like mononymed Jocasta and her
friends are just like your classic

mean girls who also maybe spike
drinks or maybe not, who knows.

And it's very much like,
oh, well there's Ellie.

And we see her whole rural
background and all that, like really.

And the one person who is presented
totally likable, who is her.

Friend and ally is John who is also comes
from South London and also, doesn't live

in the dorm has to travel like still lives
at home, like is still like clearly of um,

a different class than the other students.

I don't know what it's saying, if it, I
don't know if there's a deeper message

other than a pretty surface level, like
way of dividing, some of these characters.

Emily: I mean, in order to live in
a really nice cottage, you know,

Cornish village, you can't be poor.

You can't be the same...

Ben: I know, but that's definitely how
they play it, where they talk about,

we went to London and we couldn't
afford the clothes, but they didn't

know we could make 'em ourselves.

Emily: Well, they, I mean,
that's what that was then.

Jeremy: I mean, it's also like,
that's probably a, a house and

everything that's been in that
family for several generations.

So, you know, they don't have
to worry about paying for it.

Ben: It's been in their
house for 600 goddamn years.

Emily: Yeah.

Which is a different class.

Jeremy: You know, it, it is unclear
to some extent what Ellie's financial

situation is because she does have,
presumably it seems like is fine for

money as far as moving out of the dorm
and moving into this old lady's house.

And it does not until she bangs up
a $500 receipt for clothes that she

is like, I need a part-time job.

Emily: Yeah.

And that's a lot of that is probably
because she doesn't want to rely on her

Gran for these excesses because she's
trying to kind of keep that life separate.

So, you know, she doesn't wanna be
like, Hey Gran, can you buy me these

like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

You know, she's like, okay, I gotta, you
know, make my own life here in the city.

And you know, now I've found
myself, I found my vision.

I found like what I'm about.

Ben: Yeah, that's a whole sequence.

That's another aspect of the movie.

That, again, it, it's not bad.

I just wonder if was fully fleshed
out and explored was the sequence

where she changes her hair to be
like Sandy, she starts wearing uh,

the kinds of clothes Sandy wore.

I wonder if it's, all still just wrapped
up in this glorification of the sixties?

Is it just part of the deconstruction
of that, or is it also this element?

She wants to be Sandy to the point
of losing her own identity, which if

that's what they're going for, I don't
think that's an aspect that's explored.

Emily: I feel like there, you know,
she's also, she's thrown into this

situation that immediately rejects her.

You know, she's miserable with
Jocasta and she's, she's having

trouble putting into the college
life and all that kind of shit.

So I feel like her finding herself and
being like, okay, this is my confident

self in college, you know, that's a
very relatable thing and, you know.

Ben: A very relatable college thing.

Emily: Yeah.

And so in this case, it has to do
with these dreams that she's having

that are sort of like a dream come
true when it comes to, especially

that first dream that is just so
romantic and glam and is so beautiful.

And I am not usually a guy
for, for Maxy dresses, but Anya

Taylor-Joy rocked that shit.

Ben: She looks incredible.

All of her looks in
this movie are amazing.

Emily: For someone just draped with
like a beautiful satin curtain,

like, or what, it's not satin.

I don't know fashion shit very
well, but like, it's good.

It's some old cloth.

And she is draped in it and she looks like
a beautiful majestic goddess, like, you

know, with her bouffant and everything
like it's * mwah* also the, the

outfit that Ellie brought to the school
that she was wearing was fucking fly.

I love that shit with the pattern and the
little like, overall zone in overalls.

Yeah.

So cute.

Anyway,

Jeremy: emily mentioned the trans
models, but it doesn't do much

to attempt to address is any
sort of LGBTQ stuff in the movie.

I mean, and Edgar Wright does not
have maybe the best record on that,

but like, there was definitely moment
where it felt like there was going

to be some sort of uh, attraction
between, the two leads Yeah.

but it, it stays very uh, she cares
about her and empathizes with her

rather than a, like she is into her.

Ben: And I think that ties into that bit.

I was mentioning where it seems
like she was becoming like

obsessed with her and wanting to
look like her and dress like her.

And I, I know exactly the moment you're
talking about when she's like asked

her to look at her in the mirror.

Yeah.

Cause, but I do again, if that's not
the direction the movie goes with, which

maybe that's for the best, because.

I really like the direction it
does go, which is just Ellie,

no matter what Sandy does.

Ellie just never stops having this
radical and profound empathy and

kindness and understanding towards
Sandy that I think is probably

like, honestly, like one of the most
powerful part of the movie, maybe.

Yeah.

Emily: Yeah.

And, and also Ellie doesn't lose
her enthusiasm for the sixties.

Like she still goes ahead with those
dresses and then does makes her own thing.

You know, I

Jeremy: think it switches, I think it
switches from being a tribute to the

sixties and this idea of the sixties to
being a tribute to Sandy, like, yeah.

And she, she cares deeply about Sandy at
the end of this movie, rather than this

fake idea of what the sixties were like.

This, this girl who did get
chewed up and spit out by what

the sixties were like, but

Emily: I mean, she still,
she, she doesn't completely.

Give up on her idea, you know?

Jeremy: I guess I'll, I'll start with Joe.

Uh, Joe, do you, would you recommend
people check this movie out?

Should they watch it?

Yeah, no.

Joe: Um,

I, I really, I, I enjoy pretty much
everything Edgar Wright's done.

I, uh, yeah, I mean, visually the score,
the actors, the direction, you know,

my, my only complaints are really with
the script and I think if there was

like another pass or something like that
it could have tightened some stuff up.

So yeah.

You know, I'd, I'd
absolutely recommend it.

Jeremy: A true editor's take.

you know what, this needed more editing

uh, What about uh, what about you?

Ben: Yeah, no, I definitely recommend it.

Like I said, it does a lot, really
good it's super well directed and shot.

Some great acting.

I think it explores really well,
a lot of great themes and ideas,

you know, definitely a feminist
movie without a doubt, I think.

Very topical, poignant and thoroughly
explores the male gaze and its predators.

I don't think it fully lands.

I I think it bites off a
little more than it can chew.

Not my favorite Edgar Wright
movie, but overall, you know,

still a really well made ambitious
film that I definitely recommend.

Jeremy: Yeah.

What about you, Emily?

Emily: I love this movie.

I would say: don't expect
an Edgar Wright movie.

Okay.

This is, this is very different
from, because I saw that-

Ben: That's fair.

Emily: Right?

Ben: Yeah, that's fair.

Emily: And I was like, oh?

And then with the music, I saw that, but
it was very, very much a serious piece.

And Edgar Wright is really great at comedy
and, you know, I could see him branching

out in something that's a little bit more
intense here, but I still love the movie.

And I think that, you know, all of our
critiques can get as, as sharp as they

are because the movie was that good.

There were so many things that
could have made it just like.

Fucking fantastic.

It's like when I'm working with my
students and I'm like, okay, you have

the anatomy down now, you know that
when I get picky, you're doing well.

Right?

Like as a, as a teacher, when
I, when I start nitpicking, that

means that they're doing well.

And I feel like there's a similar, similar
relationship with this movie is that, you

know, it, it doesn't quite dunk it, but it
is just a beautiful, it's very poignant.

It's, it's very cool movie.

And again, I, I totally agree, but
it's all, I think that movie just

bit off, more than I could chew.

Jeremy: Yeah.

I, I think for me it it's much the same.

Like I would definitely
recommend people check it out.

I, I do have some reservations about it.

I think it's worth noting that this
is the first time Edgar Wright has, is

written and directed a movie with a female
lead mm-hmm he's usually got you know,

some, some fairly bro-y but fun leads.

You know, they usually Simon
P and Nick Frost, honestly.

But I think Edgar Wright has a,
has a tendency to make movies

that move like clockwork, where it
seems like everything is considered

and everything works together.

I think Baby Driver you know, even though
I think there are definitely people that

don't, don't love that movie the same way.

There are people that don't love.

Scott Pilgrim has like all
the pieces worked together.

It's, you know, literally
written in time to the music.

And everything just kind of
works is one it's smoothed down.

It's varnished.

It's, it's the best version of that thing.

But like, this feels like it has a
lot more rough edges, a lot of like

things that aren't quite like that
are alluded to or thought about, but

not really followed up on But for, for
what's there it's, it's pretty good.

There's nothing.

That's, that's outright
bad about it to me.

I think Joe is right.

That it, it could have used, you know,
one, one more pass, another few thoughts

trying to get it, get it just right.

Some other eyes, maybe looking at it
than, you know, the, the two of them.

I will say I have it.

I bought it a while back on voodoo and
I hadn't watched it, but with voodoo,

it has the special features on it that
might not show up on stuff like HBO, max.

I know it's on.

And they do have behind the scenes, like.

Shots of like them doing the steady
cam dance routine with with Matt

Smith and the two female leads.

And that is fun to watch because like, you
can see him dancing with, Anya Taylor-Joy

and like, Thomasin, hunched down behind
the camera and then just like, you know,

sort of, running into frame and, you know,
taking the spot and then switching off.

So like, it's, it's really
interesting to see just how

well put together that scene is.

And that that's where Edgar Wright excels
the most is not necessarily nailing

themes and difficult stuff, but like
crafting scenes where like you come

away from the movie and you're like,
remember that scene where this happened?

I think that's his strong point.

Ben: I mean, I definitely appreciate the
relatability of this movie and Ellie is a

character because if given the chance, I
would also choose to be Anya Taylor-Joy.

Oh God.

I definitely understand
where she's coming from.

Emily: There is some kind of deep
relatability of having those really,

really I intense vivid dreams about
being a person who is your ideal self.

I certainly really related with
that waking up and being like,

oh, this is who I am, gotta go do
this and this and this and this.

Ben: I haven't had those dreams, but I
did have a fucking Slenderman nightmare

after our marble Hornets episode.

Well, that is real.

Me and, and my friend were on a
vid chat and Slenderman was there,

but we could only see Slenderman
in each other's vid screens.

Emily: So you and The Host.

So it was J Host and Slenderman.

Ben: Yeah.

It was Host with Slenderman..

Exactly.

Emily: The guys in this movie also
were very evocative of Slenderman.

I was like, oh, Hey, like,
like Slenderman anyway.

Ben: Well, I did love the explanation
for why they don't have faces is

because Diana Rigg, Sandy, like in
her head to get through it, like

took away their faces in her mind in
order to like disassociate with it.

I don't know it that definitely worked
like, look, I always love a good, like

creepy, spooky reveal and Diana Rigg
just fucking crushed that reveal scene.

Jeremy: She's really good.

Speaking of really good,
let's do some recommendations.

Uh, Joe, is there anything
you'd like to recommend to,

to people listening this week?

Joe: Sure.

The other day I watched uh, Umma.

it's It's streaming on Netflix right now.

It stars uh, Sandra O from killing Eve
and um, it's, it's all about You know,

she sort of lives in isolation, like in
the middle of nowhere with her daughter.

uh, She finds out that her mother had
passed away and things get bad quickly.

It's like a generational
trauma kinda story.

Jeremy: Yeah.

I'm excited that's out on streaming.

Cause I, I really wanted to see that
when it was coming out and it yeah,

it wasn't in theaters very long.

Joe: But it's, it's very good.

Jeremy: Ben uh, what have
you got you wanna recommend?

Ben: Oh man, I am so unprepared for this.

I'm gonna say the devil wears
Prada cuz it also has fashion.

Jeremy: All right.

Ben: And nailed it.

Jeremy: Sure.

Yeah.

Emily, what did you get?

So

Emily: I'm gonna go
pretty far afield here.

If you are interested in learning
about how the, the British music and

the sixties became punk and grunge and
all these things, like, you know, this

history of music, especially in, in
the sixties, Britain there's a really

great podcast called No Dogs In Space.

And it's Marcus Parks and his wife,
Carolina Hidalgo talking about

music, various bands that we grew up
hearing about, but didn't really hear

when they were first out, cuz it's
mostly the sixties and seventies.

And for anybody who is really interested
in the like, The language of these

movies, it's a really good podcast
and it's a lot less rowdy than the

Last Podcast on the Left, which is
where Marcus parks usually appears.

So check it out.

No Dogs in Space.

It's on all platforms and that's
Marcus Parks and Carolina Hidalgo.

Ben: Oh, and if you want a really accurate
and well researched 1960s period piece

definitely check out Austin Powers too.

The spy who shagged me,

Emily: I'm crying now.

I'm emotional again.

For different reasons.

Jeremy: I feel like you could
probably set your calendar by what

I'm recommending because uh, this
week a uh, new film came out uh,

called Nope, directed by Jordan Peele.

And uh, my, my wife and I managed
to get in an afternoon off and went

to the small AMC theater near us.

And uh, we're literally the
only people in the theater for

the 11 o'clock showing of Nope.

Uh, Which meant uh, that we
got to act up in the theater.

Um.

Emily: Nice.

Jeremy: And it is, I mean, if
you've listened to this podcast,

do you know that I, I adore the
two previous Jordan Peele movies.

I, I love Key and Peele.

I love Keanu for that matter.

And this movie, I did my best to avoid
knowing things about it beyond the

first couple trailers, because I was
like, well, I'm going to see this movie.

So, the less of that I see the better.

It's got a knockout cast.

And I will say this.

The one thing that I think a lot of
people are reacting to, cause I've

seen some negative reviews of it.

Is that in some ways, especially
like after the like first act or so

it's not as much of a horror movie
as a lot of what Jordan Peele does.

It's much more of a Spielberg
type movie, a big fun action,

comedy drama set, piece thing.

You know, I said after we watched
it that I've my five year old has

gotten obsessed with Jurassic Park.

So in the last like couple of months,
I have seen all six of the Jurassic

Park movies and Nope reminds me more of
how the first Jurassic Park feels than

any of the sequels to Jurassic Park.

In that it is a movie that like, moment
to moment you are just, I am awed by it.

I don't know what's gonna happen.

I'm excited.

Like, I'm just trying to guess.

And I, I don't know.

But it has a, a sense of awe
and scope and excitement.

That like, I don't feel like
a lot of movies have anymore.

I, I really enjoyed it.

Uh, I think if people are going in
expecting to be uh, scared shitless,

they might be a little disappointed,
but it's a fantastic movie and I

absolutely recommend people check it out.

You know, if, if you can't go to
the movie theaters or don't want

to go to the movie theaters right
now, I fully understand that.

But you know, when it is available
to you, I would recommend checking

it out and finding out as little
about it beforehand as possible.

Emily: Yeah.

I, am so looking forward to
seeing it, I don't really know

anything about it, so I am, stoked.

Joe: Yeah.

Yeah.

I, I think I agree.

I saw it this past weekend as well.

All I knew was like the first
two trailers or whatever.

I didn't look anything else up.

And that is, that is absolutely the
way you should go into it if you can.

Jeremy: My wife, Alicia, who's our editor.

Uh, Who's not always
crazy about horror stuff.

But loves Jordan Peele's stuff was was
uh, reacting very positively to this

movie because it is a movie in which
the black people in the movie are black

people who've seen horror movies before
and are like, oh no, I shouldn't do that.

Like the name Nope it has said
repeatedly throughout the movie.

Uh, There's just characters
that are like, Nope.

Not gonna do that.

Nope.

Nope.

Nope.

Walking away.

It's fantastic in that regard.

Well that, that wraps
it up for us tonight.

Uh, Joe, can you let people know where
they can find you online, where they

can find out more about your work?

Joe: Sure you can find me on Twitter at
Joe Corallo uh, it's uh, you know, J OE, C

O R a L L O and on Instagram @CoralloJoe.

And I currently have The Never-Ending
Party coming out, which I

co-wrote with Rachel Pollock and
is illustrated by Eva Cabrera.

The th first three issues are out
on you know, Comixology originals.

So if you're an Amazon prime
member, you get it for free.

So, you know, feel free to check it out.

Jeremy: Nice.

All right.

As for the rest of us you can find emily
@megamoth on twitter and @mega_moth

on instagram and at megamoth.net.

Ben is on Twitter @BentheKahn and
on their website at BenKahnComics,

where you can pick up all of
their books, includingImmortals

Fenyx Rising and Renegade Rule.

And finally for me, you can find me on
Twitter at J Rome five eight, and at my

website at jeremywhitley.com, where you
can check out everything that I write.

And of course the podcast is on
Patreon at Progressively Horrified.

Our website at
progressivelyhorrified.transistor.fm

and on Twitter @ProgHorrorPod.

And we would love to hear from you.

Speaking of loving, to hear
from you, we would love any

rating and reviewing you can do.

Uh, We would love five star
reviews that helps more people

find our podcast and check it out.

And so we can uh, reach
a alar, a larger base.

Thanks again for joining us.

And thank you so much for
Joe uh, Joe, for coming on.

This was a, a fun conversation.

Joe: No problem.

Uh, Happy to come back.

Emily: Yeah, this was a good one.

Ben: Yeah.

Thank you so much, Joe.

Always good.

Uh, Taking a tour of jolly old London.

I didn't, I didn't even try to do
an accent because I care about you.

Emily: Why not?

Ben: Because that.

Jeremy: And, and thanks.

Emily: It's so charming.

Jeremy: Thanks as always to
Ben and I guess less so to

Emily for after that accent.

We will see you all next week
and until then stay horrified.

Alicia: Progressively horrified
as created by Jeremy Whitley

and produced by Alicia Whitley.

This episode featured at Jeremy Ben,
Emily and special guest Joe Carollo.

All opinions expressed by the
commentators are solely their own

and do not represent the intent or
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represent the employers, institutions,
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If you like this episode, you
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You can also get in touch with us on
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Thanks for listening.

Bye.

Emily: Bless.