His House (aka The Offscreen Deterioration of Matt Smith) w/ Alicia Whitley
Jeremy: About his house.
I said it's a very, very fine
house and it's in the middle of
his street So it's good to know
we're all on the same page here.
Alicia: Who's all, you're
Ben: right.
I am gonna,
Alicia: I'm not on that page.
I'm off that page.
Ben: Yeah.
This is gonna be another not
very snarky comedy episode.
Alicia: All right, I'm ready.
Jeremy: All right.
Alicia: What's up?
Horror fans you're listening
to Progressively horrified.
A k a a horror movie, book club.
That's what I'm renaming it.
So second, you
Ben: like that's true to the
spirit of the environment.
We aim to foster on this show.
Something where you can just, you
know, grab, pour Yourself a nice
big glass of Perseco and Gab with
the gals about your latest movie.
Jeremy: As long as those movies
involve horrible impaling and,
eating people and whatnot.
Ben: Oh yeah.
Alicia: All right, jar Bear.
Get us started.
Jeremy: Okay.
Good
Ben: it.
Chair bear.
Jeremy: with different
energy for this one.
good evening and open to progressively
horrified the podcast where we hold
horror to progressive standards.
It never agreed.
Tonight we're talking about
the extremely affecting British
immigrant horror drama, his house.
I am your host Jeremy Whitley.
And with me tonight, I
have a panel of Shils Enes.
First, they're here to challenge the
sexy werewolf, sexy, vampire binary.
My co-host Ben Khan.
Ben, how are you tonight?
Ben: I hope y'all are ready for an
emotional story about uh, the questions
of immigration and assimilation
that we will draw upon personal
histories for emotional discussion.
Jeremy: Yeah, this
one's gonna be a stitch.
Ben: Yeah, this one's gonna be real heavy.
Jeremy: California had weather tonight,
so Emily's not able to join us.
But we do have a special guest editor,
educator, and pH student coming to
you from about 20 feet away from me.
It's Alicia Whitley.
Alicia, welcome.
Alicia: Thank you.
Am I supposed to say more?
I don't,
Ben: yeah.
No, that's good.
Jeremy: Right.
Alicia: good.
Ben: We watched a movie
and it was heavy as fuck.
Alicia: And you know what else I
just wanna say about this movie that
we watched that was really heavy.
So Jeremy was like, Hey,
watch this movie with me.
And he knows that my number
one, no, I will not do in
movie is child endangerment.
And what is the first thing
that I see child endangerment.
Ben: Yeah,
Jeremy: mean, I mean, to be fair, I
watched like the first five minutes of
this movie and it was apparent to me that
the child was already dead, so it wasn't
Alicia: Exactly.
That was the excuse for Well,
I didn't think it would matter
cuz the kid was already dead.
Ben: Oh, so we're going
with the ginger snaps.
Excuse for why it's okay to
have like a dozen dead dogs.
It's
Alicia: Right.
Cuz they're already dead so
you don't have to see it.
And I'm like a, the, the child
has been endangered, but I
was like, I've persevered.
I was like, I'm gonna push through because
the, the worst has already ha- happened.
Ben: that way you fucked up
flashback.
Alicia: Exactly.
That was the time when he got up
and said, I'll just go ahead and
get the divorce papers ready.
Jeremy: Yeah.
Uh, this, this was a heavy one and
sometimes heavy and unexpected places.
It is, I wanna say off the
top, an incredible movie.
It's very good.
You know, as, as far as we're concerned
in the US it's a Netflix original.
It's a b BBC production.
And it's uh,
Ben: very good.
Jeremy: it's got a doctor who in it,
but, you know, not in like a fun way.
Ben: Yeah.
Fucking Matt Smith.
Is it just me or is Matt Smith popping up?
everywhere.
Everywhere.
I fucking turn.
It's Matt
Smith.
Alicia: Matt
Smith wants us to know that Matt Smith is
a fantastic actor don't get it twisted and
just think that he's just doing the Doctor
Who
Ben: saw him a few months
ago in last night in Soho.
He
Alicia: and he's the
targ
Ben: in Morbius.
Alicia: who was a targ.
Ben: a tar.
Jeremy: See is
Prince Phillip
Ben: just bringing all the drama.
Bravo reality show.
House of the Dragon.
Alicia: killed it as Prince Phillip
Ben: Fucking, that's right.
He was in the crown.
Alicia: He was
Ben: killed it in his Prince
Philip, just like time did,
Alicia: Yeah.
My Matt Smith is like,
seriously, don't sleep on me.
I may not have eyebrows,
Ben: took Jeremy a second to
get that one, but it got there.
Jeremy: Yeah.
Ben: He lived to be 99.
There's, and there's a fucking royal,
nothing I can say that can hurt him.
Alicia: And he would
probably agree with you.
Ben: You can always insult
the British monarchy.
It's the definition of punching up.
Alicia: Yeah, but you can't insult Megan
Ben: No, absolutely
Alicia: So if you were
thinking about doing that,
Ben: Fuck no.
Not on this
Jeremy: busy collectively
trying to do that, so,
Ben: Mean things about Megan, Merkel,
or Harry, that those are fucking
fighting where it's on this show.
Alicia: Speaking of people who don't
like Megan Markle, I made the mistake
of, I was listening to a podcast called
Maintenance Phase and they were talking
about what a jerk Pierce Morgan is.
And I was like, yeah,
Pierce Morgan's a jerk.
And they were talking about specifically
how obsessed he is with like anti-fat.
And I made the mistake of deciding
to look up an interview where
Pierce Morgan did with a fat model
and I hate him all over again.
Ben: Yeah, cuz I'm sure fucking
Pierce Morgan is just fucking like
chiseled abs and like huge pecks.
I'm sure that's a
Alicia: she, the model points this out.
She was like, I'm not gonna pretend
that I'm super healthy, but also who are
you to sit here and say anything about?
And he was like, well,
I'm not as fat as you are.
That was his basic defense.
And he was like, don't
get defensive about it.
And they were like, she said you were fat
and you like literally lost your mind.
Pierce Morgan.
Anyway,
Ben: Yeah.
Fuck, fuck.
Pierce
Morgan.
One of the, possibly the last
British man who makes a, who can make
Americans go, oh yeah, I remember
why we fought an war and not be you.
Alicia: Yeah.
Ben: Cause we fucking love British shit.
It, it takes so much to reawaken
those ancient like, oh, we'll
fucking fight a motherfucker.
Alicia: yeah.
I'm definitely an GL Anglophile, But
Jeremy: not Pierce Morgan.
Fuck that kid.
Alicia: Not Pierce
Ben: No.
Alicia: Anyway,
Ben: Anyway,
Harry's
ours.
He's in the
Pantheon with John Oliver, he's ours now.
We're not giving him back.
Alicia: Who?
John Oliver.
Of
Ben: Bo, both of them Princes of America
Jeremy: Ben drew the short straw on
trying to recap this movie tonight.
So, uh, take it away.
Ben: this one's gonna be a
pretty short one just because.
Just a pretty fucking dramatic,
serious movie with not a lot of
like, oh, why'd they do that?
Fucking, that was a weird decision.
So we're just gonna kind of, uh, you
know, give you the plot and then we
will dive into what should be a very uh,
heavy discussion on a pretty heavy movie.
Jeremy: Yeah,
Ben: All right, so his house
focuses on Bol and Rio, a couple
that has fled South Sudan and
sought refugee status in Britain.
They lost their daughter Nyagak on
the boat crossing the English Channel.
After three months in detention, they're
granted asylum and Matt Smith brings them
to their new house, a not very nice house
in a bad neighborhood that Matt Smith just
does his very best to put a good spin on
Jeremy: it's not very nice,
but there's so much of it.
Ben: like, they keep repeating that
like, it's bigger than my house.
Jeremy: a big, horrible house.
Ben: It's a terrible house where they
keep acting like the bigness of the
terrible house mitigates the terribleness.
also, I don't doubt that Matt
Smith lives in a shitty apartment
like somewhere in London.
Like, look, look, the London housing
market, that's a whole other theme.
Alicia: especially because they're
a family of two people, so great.
It's
Jeremy: Yeah.
This is the Amityville Row house.
Like it's just
big and
Ben: Oh, well it's so big.
I, I like, he can have his home office
and she can have the art room on
there 74 pounds a week that they're
not allowed to supplement in any way.
Which I kept waiting for that to be
a plot point just because they're
constantly showing Bol buying things.
And at first I kept trying to
like add it up in my head how
much he was spending at with this.
But then it turned out to not
actually matter to the plot at.
Jeremy: There's a whole other horror
movie within this horror movie about
how awful it is to be a refugee and all
the like, restrictions and everything
that are put on them that almost
doesn't matter until like the end of
the movie when they're like, Hey, if
you guys continue to just fuck up your
entire house you are gonna be sent.
Alicia: And also there's not
really good electricity here,
but you can't start fires or cook
Ben: there's a whole movie that is just
straight up psychological horror that has
nothing supernatural beyond just trying
to navigate a refugee like an asylum
application process like that could have
been a whole horror movie all on its own.
Jeremy: That's where I thought this was
going in the early going, but it, it did
not, it went a very different direct.
Ben: You gotta admit this movie.
It really is something if you just watched
them at Smith scenes where it's like,
okay, here's a couple, go out to work.
Oh, and now he's back lying to
me about rats breaking glasses.
Apparently there's a witch.
The house is now being destroyed
two days later, everything is
fine and they killed the witch.
Okay, fine.
I'm not putting any of that in a report.
Not dealing with any of this
paperwork, which is gonna take
the box and say they're fine.
Like this is just a real topsy-turvy
week for Matt Smith who looks like
he is the protagonist in a whole
other movie where the theme is still
Man's life falls apart around him.
Alicia: That's absolutely, I
kept looking at it from his
point like, anyway, I'll let
Ben: Yeah.
Like Matt Smith is in a whole
other movie, charting his.
Mental decline in like
psychological episode.
And this is just an aspect of like,
here's a quirky character that keeps
showing up at work for a few scenes.
Jeremy: He's like, he, he looks
like his wife has left him and his
mistress has stolen all of his stuff.
And like this, just every time we
see him, he's in worse condition.
Like he starts off barely well shaved,
kind of weird, awkward Matt Smith.
But that's about it.
And by the end of the movie, you
know, he, he looks like he's just been
through it and he's just like, guys,
could you please just like not destroy
the entire house and like, maybe lie
enough that you don't get sent back.
Cause I'd feel really bad about that.
Ben: Matt Smith in his journey is
at the Life Falling Apart montage
that comes at the end of Act one.
That's where we catch
Matt Smith in this movie.
Like, he's awful and definitely like
xenophobic and classic and all the ist,
but his main overriding thing is he seems
very, very tired at his job and just
doesn't want there to be any problems.
Like he doesn't want to deal with anything
that he doesn't have to deal with.
Jeremy: he does ultimately
seem to care about them.
But like he, he doesn't really know how
to, he doesn't know how to address things.
Ben: no.
So anyway Bol and Rial deal with
life in London and take different
attitudes towards dealing with the
xenophobia and racism they face.
Bol wants to assimilate to British
culture as much as possible.
He learns football, chans, and
dresses like a white person.
He only wants to speak English at home
and use a fork and knife at a table.
And there's a great scene where Rial says
that she can only taste the metal of the
fork, which just made me realize how much
I take for granted that I'm putting metal
in my mouth with like every bite of a meal
and don't even think about it.
And, you know, just one of
those makes you think moments.
Also made me want some of that food
cuz it looked good what they had.
Yeah, so wall Bol uh, very
much seeks to assimilate.
Rial is more apprehensive about going out.
And she sticks to the customs and
possessions she took from Sudan and,
you know, sticks to her manner of dress.
and really only goes out
to visit the doctors.
Jeremy: and has a terrible time at that.
She gets lost in all the like
backyards and gardens of this apartment
complex in London and can't seem to
get to the street she wants to get
to, and then has some, you know,
shitty teenagers be shitty to her.
Ben: she meets she some shitty
teenagers uh, who are real,
real xenophobic towards her.
And then, and this was one of the,
probably one, the biggest like fake outs
of the movie is they give her directions,
but in a delivery that feels very fake.
And they even like have to like, urge
each other on to like stick to the
story and they change their minds and
be like, oh, oh yeah, yeah, no, that
is where the doctor's appointment is.
And then it's smash cuts
to the doctor's office.
Jeremy: It does get there.
Ben: Like I was not expect.
Like it really sets it up like, oh,
she's being set up and she's gonna go.
And now it's like just something awful
about life in London is gonna just like
hit her in the face and instead, I guess
these weird, sketchy teens actually
gave surprisingly helpful in directions.
Any who teens decide?
The, while they're both experiencing
strange vision visions of phantoms
and of na Naga and a mysterious man
who hides in the walls Bol is freaked
the fuck out because of course, and
goes all hammer happy on the house but
is just triply chill about the whole
ghost thing and even treats ghosts
like a friend and has tea with them.
Rial figures out that it's
an a ape a night witch.
She tells Bol the story of a man
in her village who stole from
an ape and got cursed by him.
Rial says if they repay their debt,
yay, G will come back to them.
But it's left vague as to what they stole.
Bald thinks the apep will leave them
alone if they burn everything they
brought with them, but all he really
burns is the health of his marriage.
Things go really downhill
for Bol after this.
He freaks out and breaks a
glass, his hands, trying to
get a new home from Matt Smith.
He tears the house apart looking
for ghosts and he locks Rial
in the house when she says she
wants to go back to South Sudan.
Just some real bad dude energy
and just being a real danger
to himself and everyone around
him.
Alicia: can I just add that, uh, after
she told the story of the epi, he
said that he was thinking about how
they could start a family and like
she was talking about their missing
daughter, you know, at that point.
And then he's talking about, I thought
maybe we could start a family and that
just seemed really callous and cruel.
you know, while she's mourning the
loss of her child still wearing this
Ben: Right, Right, right.
Alicia: Like I was I was really
like ready to hate him for forever.
Ben: I mean, I'm not sure that
hating him forever is the wrong
attitude towards this character.
I, I think it could be
definitely be argued that he
deserves to be hated forever.
but,
Alicia: part
though,
Ben: Yeah, well, we'll get
to that spoiler in right now.
So, uh, Bol summons the a f himself and
the Night Witch tells him that he'll
bring his daughter back to life if Bol
gives the ape his body Bol refusing
the ape can't hurt him, but the Night
Witch does make him piss his pants.
So, point a path.
Rial escapes the house but ends in up in
a vision of a classroom in South Sudan.
Uh, And she sees all her old friends
who we learned were killed in a
massacre that she escaped by hiding.
And we get the big twist of the movie,
which is that Niga wasn't Bol and
Rial's daughter, she was a child.
They stole during the chaos of
trying to get on a bus so they
could uh, escape South Sudan.
Jeremy: Yeah, it's, it's,
definitely wrong, but also like
the intensity of the situation.
Like, you kind of get what Bol
is like where he's coming from in
that moment, because like we all
gets on the bus and then they're
like, oh no, there's no more room.
We can just take kids.
And uh, he's like, oh,
I gotta get on there.
And he, she's like, Nope just kids.
And there's this little girl next to
him who doesn't seem to have anybody
with her, and he's like, she's a kid.
This is my daughter.
We gotta get on here.
And just like
grabs her.
Alicia: It did seem
like she was alone, like
Jeremy: It does.
Until the mom starts banging
on the door of the bus
Alicia: Yes.
At which point he doesn't say anything,
and that's the really
Jeremy: yeah, the mom starts just banging
on the side of the bus and screaming for
her daughter, and the daughter is crying
and screaming and he doesn't say anything.
And Rial kind of sits there and looks
at him and doesn't say anything.
And it's super fucked up.
Ben: Oh, it's so fucked up because
the whole movie, you're going like,
well, what could Bald had stolen?
I could have warranted this.
And you're like, he's stolen kid.
And it's like, oh my God.
Alicia: and he stole a kid and then
baby got killed going overboard.
Ben: Yes.
Alicia: You stole somebody's
child and then did not
Jeremy: Well, yeah.
So I mean, what happens is the,
when they're going over the, the
channel, the boat jumps and rial and
the girl fall off the back and he
grabs rial and seems to be unsure
whether he can get the girl as well.
So, pulls her back.
She meanwhile is screaming
to go get Thek, the girl.
And like he, he pulls her away
anyway onto the boat and they leave
the little girl out there in the
middle of the sea which is why
they're haunted.
Alicia: I have told this to Jeremy
multiple times and I know that
he knows it, but if it is ever a
choice between me and my child and
you choose me, you're going to die.
Like that was the wrong choice.
You shouldn't have chosen me.
Ben: but what if it's
the choice between you?
And a random 10 year old, he just kind
of grabbed to get a seat on a train.
Alicia: right?
Which again, like you
grab a random 10 year.
To get a seat on a train next
to me and her mama is screaming
out the, I'm not sitting there.
I'm
Ben: It's so fucked up.
It's such a
Alicia: It's so and like, and so I
understand like up in like at that
point she feels like she has taken
this child on and it almost seems
like she has convinced herself
Ben: No, it she has,
she like this is
Alicia: Like
she has absolutely blocked out the
fact that they have stolen this
Ben: because even in her dream
she's like, where's my daughter?
And they have to be like,
you don't fucking have
a di.
Alicia: yeah.
Ben: We
Alicia: women are
like, Uhuh
Ben: and we have to tell you the twist.
That is the one bit of movie where
like the movie really relies on real.
Having repressed her own
memories into believing
Alicia: Yeah.
Ben: that she had a
Alicia: point, you know, so at that
point she's still in, I'm a mom.
and I will 1000, a hundred
thousand percent say.
If you save your life or my life and
not my child's life, it's over for you.
I'm coming for you.
I'm gonna haunt you for the
rest of your natural life, and
I will haunt your descendants as
well until I have retribution.
Now, what I couldn't figure out
is what was in it for the ape?
Ben: He just seemed to like,
I mean, I got that he wanted
Bol's body because I don't know,
he wanted to watch football games
and dress in fucking slacks.
Jeremy: Who doesn't?
Alicia: maybe some ta.
He just wanted a little, a little melanin.
He just needed a little, cuz this ape
Ben: Oh, very ashy.
Very
Alicia: Very waxy and, I don't, I
don't, it just flesh looked like
it was just hanging off of him.
Jeremy: you know, the
ghosts in this are amazing.
Like this.
Miss a path is spooky and, and like the
way that he attempts to take over Bol's
body by like literally sticking his
hand through the cut in his arm and like
Alicia: Is this another movie in
which a white guy is trying to
wear black people like a puppet?
Jeremy: I mean, he is, he
can't possibly be a white guy.
He's just, he's just a really ashy ghost.
Alicia: Okay.
All right.
Moving along.
So what happens next then?
Ben: feeling remorse for
the whole, stealing a child
and letting her die thing.
Bol decides to pay his debt to the Abe
and bring ya G back by slicing his arm.
And the night witch starts taking
over Bol's body by just fucking
sticking his hand in the wound.
And it's oh, it looks so
fucking painful and awful.
And, ugh, he beche but Rial decides
to save Bol instead of resurrecting
her not daughter, and kills the a
a sometime while later, Matt Smith
comes by to inspect the house and Bol
and Reil have it totally fixed up.
And, you know, Matt Smith asked
about the witch and they're
just like, Rial killed him.
No worries, bro.
Kobe, Dr.
Hill or spend last nights in soho.
And then we end with the image of
Bol and Rial together holding hands
saying they've decided to stay that
this is their home and they will
live with the ghosts of their past.
And the literally as we just, just
so, oh, just so many fucking ghosts.
Alicia: but these ghosts at the
end, so the ghosts that he was,
that Bol was seeing were drowned.
They were disgusting.
They had on masks to indicate that they
were like part of the spirit world.
They were peeking out through the
walls and they were incredibly
disturbing and incredibly scary.
And when they accepted what had
happened and they decided to live with
their ghosts, the ghosts all appear
as, they're not frightening anymore.
Jeremy: like they're friends.
Alicia: there.
Yes.
Jeremy: the ghost that's, that
they identify as naac several
times is incredibly creepy.
She's got a
you know, little mask.
She jumps around and tries
to stab him a few times.
She is wild.
Ben: Like, ugh, the scene where just
all the ghosters grabbing it, Paul
Zaga can just have like an unobstructed
view to slitting his throat and he is
just reaching for the light switch.
Like, oh, that was fucking tense.
This movie has some real,
Alicia: didn't, I didn't know what
that light switch was gonna do because
the girl already turned on the lights.
One time he, he turned off the lights
to see the ghosts and then turned
them back on cuz he was scared.
And then the ghost looked at him,
like, stood in the light and looked
at him and turned the light back
Ben: oh, I love that.
That was
Alicia: no.
that was
.
Ben: Again,
Alicia: Um, But I thought it
was interesting the moment where
he said, you can't touch me.
That's why you need me to do this.
You
Ben: cause those ghosts seemed like
they were gonna do a really good job of
do, of touching
him.
Right.
Those ghosts seemed like
they had no fucking problem.
Jeremy: I mean, but they, they don't
really, I mean, they, they spend a lot
of time getting very close to hurting
him and spooking him and making his
life generally difficult to live.
But ultimately, like they can't, they
don't seem to be able to do anything
to have, except show him visions.
And he's like, you can't
hurt me with pictures.
And then it, you know, makes him feel
like he's out in the middle of the
ocean again, surrounded by dead bodies.
And he pisses his pants,
Ben: Was a real bitch you thought moment.
Alicia: You know what that reminded me of?
speaking of guilt and sin and ghosts,
it reminded me of Lady Macbeth.
So.
If you're not familiar with Macbeth,
Macbeth is supposed to be the king and
his wife convinces him to kill the king.
And then he goes on a murder spree.
He just like Walter whites it
down a rabbit um, of murder.
But at the beginning of the
play, she tells him to go in
there and plant the evidence.
And he says, I can't go back in there
and plant the evidence because the
king, you know, he, he's all dead.
And he's staring at me and she
said, the sleeping in the dead.
our butt is painted pictures like, what
are you, what are you even talking about?
Okay, he's dead.
It's just like a painting.
Calm down.
The painting can't get you.
And then by the end, she is
completely racked with guilt.
She is, you know, scrubbing and
scrubbing at her hands because she
can't wash the blood off of her hands.
From all this guilt.
Ben: I mean, it did seem like to be a
very interesting message of the movie to
be like, you just have to accept your.
Alicia: Hmm.
And honestly, that was the part where
I turned towards this character.
So the entire time I was like, you stole
a baby and then you lost that baby.
And like, I can understand in
the situation, like he was doing
everything he could to save himself.
And he wasn't even thinking coherently,
like he wasn't doing things with intent.
He was desperate and he was
trying to save himself and he
was trying to save Rial Right.
So it's like, I get it,
you picked up this kid,
Ben: I can get picking up the kid
and gang on the bus, but God, when
the mom is banging on the window
Alicia: Yeah.
and he's like, I can't say
anything or else we're, you know,
you know, he's like, just shit.
It's gonna all be over.
It's gonna all be over.
Because he's thinking that
mom's gonna be dead soon anyway.
Right?
Like they stopped the, the
guns were right behind them.
Right.
So they stopped the truck.
What, what are they gonna do?
Stop the bus to put the mom on there
and then they're all gonna be dead.
So like I can kind of see his reasoning
and his validation for what he did.
But it wasn't until he was able
to say, I did do these bad things.
I am a bad person.
That I was like, okay, now
we can begin to move on.
Ben: yeah.
Well, I mean, it definitely does
change the movie a little bit or
makes me rethink like, you know,
Bol and Rial's relationship.
Because, you know, at first I was
watching it through the lens of, oh,
these are two people who are grieving
the loss of a child in different ways.
That isn't what the other needs.
But then I look from a boss's perspective.
Now it's every time we all mentions
our daughter who we lost, he must have
been looking at where it's like, okay,
but she wasn't like it was traumatic.
I'm having nightmares about every night.
But,
Alicia: like when
he says, so his comment about,
I was thinking you and I could
start a family, and her looking
at him like, what is your problem?
And him looking at her like,
yeah, wouldn't that be great?
You know, like he's.
Trying to deal with what happened by
embrace it, by throwing himself into this
new life and embracing this new life,
she is refusing to let go of the past.
And it turns out that there needs to
be a balance between those two things.
They do need to hold onto those ghosts.
They do need to be grounded in their
history while accepting what happens
so that they can move forward.
Ben: I mean that aspect I
think will be very relatable.
anyone who is an immigrant or is
the child of immigrants or comes
from like a family driven by, you
know, heavy immigration because.
Look, I sure as hell do not have
any ancestors from South Sudan.
I don't have any an relatives
who lived in live in England.
But this question of, you know,
assimilation versus hanging on to
native customs and culture is a very
fundamental one to, to any, anyone
who's, you know, immigrated or has
experience with as a family of immigrants.
That is a question and a balance that
every family has had to find for herself.
It's one I know for a fact, like as
American Jews my family has had to
deal with, and I know it's something
that my family has for the most part.
Come on the side of assimilation.
Like last names have been changed.
Uh, To be less overtly Jewish.
You know, really like doing our
best to adopt just like practices
and customs to a large degree.
I mean, uh, my mother is uh, the
daughter of Israeli immigrants.
They did not celebrate
Hanukkah growing up.
That was how like hard
they tried to assimilate.
And it wasn't until, you know, she
grew up and as an adult and the next
generation that trying to bring some
balance back, you know, raised me, not
celebrating Christmas, but celebrating
Hanukkah and Jewish holidays instead.
So this question of assimilation versus
you know, holding onto the past and the
extremes and trying to find the balance
between them, that is something so real
and something so many families will
wrestle with, like for generations.
Alicia: Jeremy, that was the
case with your family, wasn't it?
Jeremy: Yeah, I mean my, you know,
grandparents are immigrants and you
know, they, they left England Post
World War II and, and moved here.
And they all sort of split up
and drifted around the country.
You know, and, and did their best to sort
of become American other than, you know,
short of, short of the accents, really.
Alicia: I was thinking
Jeremy: well, my, I I was actually
thinking in the case of uh, my mother's
parents, Roy and Janice, it, it's
actually kind of similar to this and
that, you know, he sort of, rushed out
there and was, you know, trying to do
whatever to you know, make money and
be part of this world and everything.
And she was very much a
stay-at-home traditions person.
She didn't really go anywhere the
entire time that I, I knew her.
She was at home most of the time.
she cooked and cleaned and did
her best to find all the British
stuff around that she could.
But yeah, I mean, my, you know, my,
my grandfather on the other side is
uh, Mexican immigrant and he ended
up in the Navy because, you know, it
was, he was given the choice of either
going to the Navy or going to juvie.
And so, you know, it's sort
of integrated that way.
I think a way that a lot of folks
who've immigrated from Mexico and
South America end up doing, joining
the Army or some armed services.
Ben: Oh yeah,
the promise of assimilation
and social mobility in
exchange for military services.
A whole other fucking college discussion.
College level discussion.
Alicia: I was gonna say, but
your family didn't speak Spanish.
Like
Jeremy: I mean,
Alicia: like it seems.
Jeremy: yeah, I mean his, his whole life,
he He very rarely spoke Spanish once,
you know, he moved here and also insisted
that he didn't speak Spanish, he spoke
Mexican uh, which was a whole other thing.
Anytime any of my cousins tried to you
know, learn Spanish in school and decided
to try and speak Spanish to him he would
tell me to get that shit outta here.
He didn't speak any Spanish.
She spoke Mexican.
Alicia: Yeah, but I mean, I'm just
saying like he did, it didn't seem like
it was a really big priority to him
to maintain any non-American customs
Jeremy: I mean there, there's,
you know, cultural stuff yelled on
through, but not, yeah, not with
any like aggression, stubbornness.
Ben: It's very, it's interesting that,
you know, picking my words carefully
and it definitely feels like a choice.
And it's interesting that the
most overt xenophobia that Rial
Encounters is uh, from a Black
Britain team, black British teenagers.
And it kind of feels like in a
way by making that choice, she's
almost being confronted with
her greatest fear slash Bol's.
Greatest hope is that anything they
like do create is just becomes like so
divorced, so separated from the culture
that Rial all came from and is clearly
still holding onto and treasuring that
they are actively hateful against it.
You know, these characters, these
teenagers who are delivering this racist
abuse on someone who probably has an
accent pretty similar to their mother
or grandmother and I mean, hell, you
see it all the time that that part of
the cycle of assimilation is you get to
a point where you're assimilated, where
you can now start being the one punching
downwards at the people who haven't.
And I don't know, it's just very
interesting to see them as this
potential manifestation of kind of
what Bol hopes for them to become.
Alicia: I had a note about that, about
how my heart just, it absolutely broke.
When she went to these young boys for
help and they mocked her, you know, they.
Her to speak English.
Um, And it was just a reminder, that,
you know, just because people are
skinfolk don't mean that they're kinfolk.
And one of the other things I was thinking
about, and I think I think about this
often, is about the ways in which, you
know, in America, and I recognize that
this is taking place in England and
so it might be different, you know,
obviously like, I think the history of
British colonialism in Sudan and like the
divide and rule, policy that they had in
Sudan and then her coming back and, Bol
keeps telling her to speak in English.
And she said that she's gonna
speak her mother tongue, right?
She's gonna use her mother tongue
because she had something to
say and she needed to say it.
Like, you know, with emphasis
she didn't have time to waste.
Speaking English.
Ben: That's when the connection
between the two really hit me as
this whole, like, is these kids being
English, like speak English, and then
Bol being like, let's speak English
too, just made me, that's when it,
that's when the connection between
them like kind of was like, oh fuck.
Alicia: and it absolutely made me think
of, like in America, you know, one
of the figures that we love to Santa
Claus-ify, you know, we talked about
the Santa Clausification of Martin
Luther King, but we also like to Santa
Claus-ify Harriet, Harriet Tubman.
And what did Harriet Tubman do?
You know, Harriet Tubman led, refugees
from violence to another country to
become immigrants to that other country.
Right.
And she did so while wielding a gun
and threatening to shoot anybody who
was going to thwart those efforts.
So we're like, Harriet Tubman
is like this hero, right?
There's like this big push to put
her on the money, put her on stamps.
She's such a hero.
But at the same time, some of my
skin folk have disdain for refugees
from other countries or refugees,
who are also fleeing violence.
And it's, it's just the irony of that.
Holding those two thoughts in your head
at the same time that the Underground
Railroad was heroic and good.
It was good that people were fleeing north
to Canada to flee this violence or fleeing
south to Mexico to flee racial violence.
But at the same time, in today's time,
, we want to close borders, we want to
limit immigration, and it, it bothers
Ben: it's people are dumb,
like, and they're bad at
Alicia: yeah, and I mean, just seeing
that reflected in those teenagers,
like, for asshole teens, you know, they
say stuff, they do stuff, but, like,
it was absolutely heartbreaking and
something that I recognized and just.
I think earlier you said it felt so real
and that was something that felt so real.
The actress who plays Rial- Wunmi.
Jeremy: Wunmi Mosaku.
Ben: Wunmi Mosaku.
Alicia: Thank you.
Wunmi Mosaku.
Her, her eyes are so incredibly
expressive, but her body,
like her physical body is so
different than the white English
people that they had in here.
She's very tall, she's very
thick, and just, she physically
looked otherized in this world.
. And then when they do the flashback where
she's sitting with her friends in the
school and they're just sitting with her
and like gently stroking her hands and
her legs, and it was emotional for me and
Those are not my people, but like,
I just, you know, I don't know.
It
Ben: that feeling of connection
and home and being in a place
after a whole movie, so clearly.
being in a place that
she doesn't feel is home.
I mean, just almost like this
tragic catharsis of it is
hard not to get swept away
Alicia: them massacred.
To see them massacred right after
Ben: and and you're so
right about her eyes.
Like you can have a whole
emotional journey with just like
her facial, like just her eyes.
Alicia: Yes.
And oh her eyes.
Like, I just, I can't get over
all the work that she did, and
she doesn't speak that much.
Jeremy: Yeah.
Alicia: like In the doctor's office,
you know, the, the doctor or the
nurse, uh, who is like taking her blood
pressures, trying to like, kind of make
small talk and, you know, just, you
know, get to know her a little bit and
she's like, oh, what a pretty necklace.
I just, ugh, I can't, I, I'm out of words.
I have
Jeremy: Yeah.
Both of the leads in this
movie are, are so incredible.
uh, Wunmi Mosaku I think the main thing I
have seen her in other than this is Loki
Ben: yes, you, yes.
You at home probably
recognize her as hunter.
Hunter b 15.
She's Hunter B 15 in loki.
Alicia: Oh, I love her so much.
In
Ben: Yes.
And she's also great in that she was
also in one of the series of Luther, if
you're a Luther fan out there for all you,
Alicia: Oh, that's the one where?
That's the one where Idris goes, Zoe, Zoe.
Ben: Yes,
Alicia: Is that that one?
Ben: the one.
Jeremy: she, she's also in Lovecraft
country, which I don't think you
ended up watching any of Alicia,
but I've watched a few episodes of.
Ben: she's great.
Uh, Sope Dirisu I haven't
uh, hasn't been as much.
It seems like his biggest credit
has been in Gangs of London,
a British crime drama show.
But yeah, he is also very, very good.
They are both really
fucking good in this movie.
Alicia: Yes.
Oh, and the scene where
he's talking to Matt Smith.
This is where I was like, if
this movie were from Matt Smith's
perspective, like I don't know what
I would even do if I were Matt Smith.
Cuz the scene where he's talking
to Matt Smith and he's like, yes.
Uh, We have.
Yes, they're verman.
Yeah.
Bugs, brats.
We gotta move, we gotta get out.
And the smile that he has, like the
forced, I'm gonna smile and I'm gonna say
whatever it takes to convince this man
to move me, where he's just looking like
really on the brink, you know, of a break.
And then he crushes
the glass in his hands.
Ben: Oh, and Matt
Smith's reaction is real.
Like, fucking, I got rats.
I love a new house too.
Alicia: and he was like, my
guy, you have got to adapt.
And he was like, oh, adapt.
Um, Like he was like, you, I can't, I
ha I cannot just like overlook this.
Like
Ben: And, and then I love him
Alicia: from Matt Smith's perspective,
this looks real dangerous.
Like
Ben: from Matts smith's perspective.
From Matts Smith's perspective, someone
who looks afflicted with joker toxin
has it come in, just gone back and
forth on whether or not there are giant
rats that are or are not a problem.
Then broken a glass in
his hand and stormed out.
And then when you go to check there
are hammer holes all over the house.
All the wallpaper has been
stripped out and the wife tells
you that there is a witch living
with them who has cursed them.
Alicia: Yeah.
Just like, oh, there's a witch.
Yeah.
And . And he is like, you
look bad and you smell bad.
My guy like,
Ben: is a fucking hell of
a thing to tell somebody.
Alicia: right, like you, he
must have really smelled bad
for someone to just straight up
say like, you're not doing okay.
Like, I can see that
you're not doing okay.
Ben: Yeah, it was, there
was a bit of concern there.
It, it wasn't a full parasite.
But yeah, no, from Matt's Smith
perspective, he's going around being
like okay, there's a witch in the house.
I don't know what form that is.
I don't know what paperwork
to fill out for witch in for,
like, there's a, for witches.
Jeremy: Yeah.
It's, it's rough for him because his
reaction to a lot of the stuff which
is, is ultimately unhelpful to the
other characters is like, Hey, if I
tell anybody who can help you, any of
this stuff, they're just gonna send
you back to the country you came from.
Like, they're gonna be like,
these people are clearly crazy.
We cannot continue to have
them here and send you away.
And, and he's, he's just like,
look man, I , I wanna help you, but
there's like, give me something I can
Alicia: credit?
He didn't say oh, there's no witch
.
He didn't say, ah, you're, you're, what?
You're crazy.
He was just like mm.
I.
Ben: he does legitimately seem
like he is trying his best, knowing
that he is part of the system as
designed to just fuck them over
at every
turn.
Alicia: Yes.
Jeremy: He, I don't know.
It, it's, it's interesting to me
because, I mean, he, it's hard
to get a read on him throughout.
He seems like he's really trying and,
you know, when the other two people come
to sort of index all the stuff that's
wrong with the house, he's sort of
hanging back and, and talking to them.
And, and he has this moment to, like,
in the last scene there where he's like,
so, uh, what happened to the witch?
The witch still here?
And you know, he is almost jokingly.
And Bol was like, oh no, she killed him.
He's dead.
Not a problem.
And, And, he does not seem to
know what to make of that either.
He's like, all right.
Ben: like,
Jeremy: Good to
Ben: again, I think he's just
happy that he is like, oh, okay.
Sounds like a problem.
That solved itself.
Alicia: Yeah,
Ben: I guess I don't have to
deal with a witch anymore.
That was been on my to-do list all week.
Alicia: Yeah, I really, I really
understood his character there.
Like, I don't really know what to do about
Ben: Oh my God.
Just mad Smith being like both
overwhelmed and not wanting to deal
with it is a very relatable, like,
again, he talks about like, yeah, I used
to work at a bank Life ain't working
out the way any of us thought did it.
I'm like, I need to know everything about
Mad Smith's character in this movie.
Alicia: I wanted to know
about the upstairs neighbor,
Ben: Yeah.
I thought she was gonna be a bigger part.
Like she just kind of came out and
was like, Hey, how would you like
a little racism in your coffee?
Alicia: Yeah, just a little
Jeremy: this
Ben: we haven't had
enough racism yet here.
We're just gonna sprinkle
a little more racism.
Okay.
I'm out of the movie now.
Bye.
Jeremy: this movie is
chock full of red herrings.
Like there are real things in real racism
that would exist in this situation.
And frequently you think they're
going to be something more and it's
like, oh no, they're just, they're
just there for the, you know,
general sense of horrible ambience.
Like when she is trying to get to the
doctor's office and she is wandering
through these back streets, she sees a
lot of white folks who just like give
her death stares and she does not engage.
She just keeps her head
down and keeps going.
And like when she finally sees
these black teenagers, this seems
to be like the opportunity where
she's like, oh, them I can talk to.
Like, that'll be okay.
They might be able to help me.
And you know, it just turns out to be
Ben: It's such a real, like you said,
Alicia uh, Skinful can, kin falk
Alicia: Mm-hmm.
.
Ben: and again, that is so, it does
make it a little heartbreaking that she
is just getting the most fullthroated
abuse from these people who, like you
could, the relief she feels is palpable
only for her to just be like, as soon
as she lets her guard down for it
to just be like, get the worst of it
Alicia: And it honestly, like, know, it's
sometimes people feel like, you know, they
get racism and they get guff from like
the people you know, I don't, I'm trying
to think of the best way to say this
Ben: culturally down.
Alicia: exactly.
Like, I mean, like, it's like these
black teens are gonna be looked down
upon by, you know, white English people.
They're gonna be looked at like,
you're the immigrant, you're the
foreigner, you have the weird
accent, you don't talk, right?
And so instead of turning
around to somebody else who.
Fits that they just turn around and give
that same abuse to that other person.
It, it kind of reminded me of, and I know
why the Cage bird scene, Maya Angelou
talks about how they moved into a space
that was vacated, during World War II by
Japanese people who were forcibly removed
to internment camps and their families
moved in and took over these businesses
and she was like, we probably should have
been more, concerned about what happened
to the people who were here before us.
But we were busy.
Like, okay, well now it's our turn
to you, like, have an opportunity.
You know?
And so it's like people who
have been oppressed don't.
Turn around and assist those who
are also in their same position.
Instead, they take that opportunity
to kind of like assimilate
whiteness themselves and to
adopt whiteness themselves.
Like, I'm different and I'm other,
but at least I'm not like that.
And it's a frustrating thing
Ben: I mean, it used to be a,
a joke we used to tell in high
school when I was in high school.
I remember tell is uh, nothing
represents the American dream more
than going from Irish need not apply
to Bill O'Reilly complaining about
immigrants within three generat.
Alicia: Absolutely.
And then using that that, well,
I, my people were discriminated
against badge of honor to say,
Ben: Oh.
And
Alicia: Well, my people were discriminated
against too, but my people are different
because your people did, you know?
Ben: and I don't know how, and again,
this is a British movie, and I don't know
if this is more of a specific American
phenomenon, but the way conditional
whiteness is used as a way to perpetuate
anti-blackness and keep marginalized
groups like pitted against each other.
This idea that like if you-
Alicia: Yeah.
I think that's the term that I was looking
for was like conditional whiteness.
Ben: Like if you just like, if you
just hate the right group, you can be
that much closer to being in the club.
I mean, um, there's on Hulu and
stuff right now the show uh,
welcome the Chippendales and a big
theme of it is the racism that this
Indian business owner encounters.
But instead of making that, that racism
encounters and making him any kind of
more empathetic person, it just gives him
ideas on how to perpetuate that racism.
Alicia: No.
Ben: Yeah,
Alicia: Oh, I guess hurt people.
Hurt people,
Ben: it's a real hurt people.
Hurt people.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Alicia: Oh, that was just
absolutely heartbreaking.
Ben: Hey.
Hey y'all.
Listeners, we warned you this
was gonna be a pretty heavy.
Jeremy: Yeah.
I think part of what makes this
movie so heavy too is, is the
structure of it, which I think
we've talked a little bit about.
It deals mostly with stuff going on
in England with them having already.
Left the Sudan in Sail La Cross Sea.
We get a little bit of a picture of,
of what happened that, you know, they
lost their daughter at the beginning.
But like we get a lot of them living
and trying to get by with like, them
saying, oh, all the stuff we've been
through, do you really want to go back?
Do you remember all the
things we've dealt with?
Do you remember where we've been?
And they save the actual facts and
images of that till the end, till like,
you know, they're sort of trapped in
this nightmare of like, what actually
happened to them that you, you know,
see you know, all of her, her friends
and family just, get slaughtered in
that schoolhouse and you see them.
you know, hiding up on top of this
house while these, you know, men are
marauding down the street killing people.
And you, you know, see all these sort
of narrow escapes that got them there.
There was a, point in this movie
where I was getting really like,
angry with the ghost that I was just
like, what the fuck did this guy do?
Like, punishing him for surviving?
Like he's, you know, he is stolen a life.
Well, like, you know, he,
he fought to get here.
Like, that's not, that's not
stealing, that's just surviving.
And then, you know, you get to
this point where it's like, oh,
this is the horrible thing he did.
And you're like, oh, oh
no, that is horrible.
But then even then you're like,
Ben: I think
Jeremy: God, I don't.
Ben: I didn't, I wasn't expecting him
to have straight up stolen a kid if
only because like, Rial's like fake
memory uh, red Herring was enough to
throw me off that particular scent.
But yeah, no, I had the
same thought as you.
I'm like, well, look at this guy.
Possibly have fucking stolen from someone.
Was it like, he had to push someone out
of the way to get like a spot on the boat.
Like was that, and like he stole the spot.
I wasn't expecting straight up
steal a child, which, but yeah,
no, it's like, you're right.
Alicia: Billy zaed.
Ben: Yeah.
Like it does.
He did.
He fucking, he did
Alicia: Za did in Titanic?
Ben: This, This, is, if Billy
Zane was our protagonist, like,
Jeremy: The protagonist of Titan.
Alicia: as bad as Billy Zane.
Ben: Huh?
Jeremy: Isn't Billy Zane, the protagonist?
Titanic.
I'm remembering this
Ben: No, I'm saying this movie is
if Billy Zane was the protagonist.
Alicia: I don't think he
was as bad as Billy Zane.
I mean, he actually really cared for real.
Ben: Yes, look the part,
look, the part where he locked
her in a house is real ugly.
that part
Alicia: was real ugly.
That was, that was real
Ben: That, that, that was
Alicia: bad.
One of the things that I also thought
was interesting, that this story
made me think of is the fact that
the ghosts needed to be remembered.
there's an idea that people don't
die until you forget them and
Pushing them out of mind or trying
to put them out of mind, was just
another violent way of killing them.
And his confronting what happened, his
confronting the ghosts, their decision
that we are going to live with the ghost,
but we're also going to move forward.
Like they, that happened at the same time.
Right?
She decides to move forward by killing
the a path he decides to confront the
past by admitting to what he's done
and, and paying for what he's done.
Um, It made me think about the
story Beloved by Tony Morrison,
which she's my favorite book, so
I will talk about it all the time.
But Beloved is a ghost baby who
is disremember and unaccounted
for, and she comes back to
like Kind of haunt the living.
And, the nightmare that is
this baby coming back is, you
Ben: Tony Morrison delivering
Alicia: But
Ben: Gothic.
Alicia: that good, good
southern magical realism, gothic
just all mixed up in there.
It's so scary.
And so- you should read Beloved, don't
watch the movie for this podcast,
Ben: Just read.
If you haven't read any Tony
Morrison, just read by Tony
Alicia: just read some Tony Morrison and
then read it again because I guarantee
you missed something the first time you
Ben: Better yourself as a
person by reading Tony Morrison.
Alicia: At the end, she says,
this is not a story to pass on.
And that is just an
amazingly interesting phrase.
Like it's not a story to pass on.
Like, and it's the story, this
memory of slavery and, and death
and murder and, and horrors.
And it's not something that you want to
pass on, like not something that you want
to propagate or continue, but it's also
not a story that you want to pass on.
Like, you do need to confront that story.
You do need to know it.
You do need to see it and rememory it,
um, in order that it doesn't happen again.
And also, it's not a
story to allow to pass on.
Like if you ignore it,
these people will die.
You know, . And this is not
a story that will just die.
It will not just pass on.
It's going to stay with us.
So I kept thinking of that as.
The little girl comes back to her
and holds her hand, not in a physical
sense, but in a spiritual sense.
The little girl comes back and all of the
family is, all of the family is there.
The, the house is just packed.
Ben: I, I really enjoyed how
a big part of Bol's efforts to
assimilate was learning football.
That was fun.
If anything, I would've liked
more football song singings.
Like where, where were
Bol's, football buddies.
They would've been fun, silly, supporting
characters in a movie that really had no
need or use for fun or silly anything.
So it's probably good they weren't there.
Jeremy: Start making our own horror
movie chance and just start throwing
into these things as we're watching them.
Ben: I'm trying to think of what our
horror themed like Chance would be like.
Like a pin here, A pin there.
A pin, like a pin all over the head.
Oh, oh, oh, that bad.
Oh no,
Jeremy: I mean, the Roy Camp
one kind of
Ben: I'm allowed in
Jeremy: Meyers already.
The the Roy,
Ben: I do gotta give credit to the
cinematographer because man, between
this and train spotting, nobody knows
how to make the UK seem like just
the worst fucking place to live.
Like people from the UK like man
to, they did such a good job making
London just seem utterly inhospitable.
Jeremy: my God.
The, the, like, the fact that they
tell them, okay, we're gonna put
you in a place, but you have to.
, you know, you have to live wherever.
And they pack him into a taxi
basically and drive them to the
place and just drop them off.
And to the point that Bol like
when he goes to the barber
is like, Hey, where are we?
And the guy's like, oh,
you're on High Street.
And he is like, in London.
And he's like, yeah.
It's like, it's so horrible that like
these, these people who have already
been through so much, they're just
like allowed to be so disoriented
and, and unwelcome in this place.
Ben: I mean, it's a good thing.
There's no elected leaders
who would be as thought so
thoughtless, callous, and uncaring.
As to take fleeing refugees and just pack
'em into a motorized vehicle and then just
ship 'em off to a completely, to a unknown
location they know nothing about, with no
resources on the ground prepared for them.
But that would just be Cartoonishly evil.
So no governor's named Greg Abbott
would ever think to do that.
Right.
Alicia: Hmm, hmm.
Jeremy: Can't imagine.
Alicia: Poor a mustache.
Ben: Not to get too political,
but uh, go fuck yourself.
Straight to hell, Greg Abbott.
Jeremy: yeah.
Alicia: So when does the story take place?
Oh, absolutely, yes.
But, um, when did the story
like take place, do you know?
Ben: So I know the movie came out in 2020.
I mean, just a quick look.
It says, I mean, I would guess sometime
in the 2010s it's meant to take place.
Alicia: Yeah, I was looking at the,
Holocaust museum's, uh, writeup of
genocide and South Sudan, and this says
that, um, since gaining independence
in 2011, the new nation of South Sudan
experienced civil war and mass atrocities.
Um, And between 2013 and
2018, over 400,000 people were
killed as a result of the war.
In March, 2017, the UN determined
that ethnic cleansing was occurring,
and though the Civil War has
formally ended in 2020, there was
an increase in both intercommunal
and politically motivated conflicts.
So very, very recent
Ben: This is definitely meant
to be a present day uh, story.
Alicia: and it's just something that
I feel like since 2011, like since
independent, like getting independence,
I don't remember hearing anything about
Ben: Yeah.
I mean, how fucked is it that
there's been a decade long civil war
Alicia: Mm-hmm.
Ben: we know nothing about?
What a damning indictment of us,
our culture and the news media.
Alicia: Mm-hmm.
Ben: but especially us
because self-loathing just
comes so naturally to me.
Alicia: Why?
Why is that?
Ben: you know
Alicia: where do you
think that comes from?
Jeremy: So,
Alicia: Yeah?
Jeremy: Ben, you were talking about
the uh, cinematographer on this one.
Which we have have seen them as the
director of photography previously
on Hard Candy, which is another
very difficult movie to watch.
They also,
Ben: we?
Jeremy: they also were the cinematographer
for Outcasts Rose's video among other.
Ben: Hell yeah.
Okay.
Speaking of just standout
filmmaking, have to talk.
The scene where it's Bol eating, so much
sound effect on like focus on the clanking
of the fork and it just zooms out and
it's just him against like the, like a
chunk of the wall cut out and they're
on the water, and, and Rial disappears.
Like how just ugh creep
Alicia: Woo.
Ben: was that
Alicia: And the, orangey
colors and the smoke
Jeremy: yeah.
Ben: They're very almost
stranger things with the
Jeremy: along with the moment of her,
like crawling out the window into this
classroom and then like the, the switch
of the classroom from being full of loving
people to being full of dead people.
Both of those moments are just so.
Insane.
They're just so intense.
And so like they're at a point that
like, at first you don't really know what
you're looking at, and then it, blows
it up in a way that you can't not, you
can't not know what you're looking at.
It's a lot.
Ben: This movie is uh, it really
heaps it on you, doesn't it?
Alicia: Does absolutely.
Ben: But,
Jeremy: Joe Williams.
Ben: oh, I mean, great job.
I mean, the scene where uh, Bol confronts.
The ape and like the candle turns
into the fire and it's just them
talking across shadows like, and
yet it's chilling or, Ooh, God, no.
The scene that I could not fucking tear
myself away from that just gave me all
the chills was the dinner on the floor
scene where she tells him the story of
the ape from her village and then ends
with her, calling him a liar when he says
he doesn't know what she's talking about.
Like that scene and oh my God,
again, I just have to give
such praise to Wunmi Mosaku.
She is electric in that scene.
Yeah,
Alicia: I realized I was just
like nodding and shaking my
head in, in an audio medium.
So
Ben: I.
Again, I, once again, I don't have snark.
This is a very good movie
with such heavy themes.
Like the only thing that I could
possibly like knock points off it
for is that a lot of the plot and
misdirect rely on, you know, Rial's
false memories that she gave herself
over the, like, within three months,
Alicia: I don't even know
if I'd knock it for that.
That's
Ben: I guess just like in that fucking
anal retentive hitch, me not uh, you
know, cinema sins honest, his trailer
kind of way of like, it's a bit of a
contrivance that the plot needs to work,
Alicia: That's true.
Ben: but, well if, if that's enough
to, you know, dampen your enjoyment
of this fucking haunting, intelligent
experience, then go fuck yourself.
I guess.
This movie's amazing.
Alicia: won a lot of awards,
Ben: Good.
It deserved them.
Alicia: not enough awards.
That won Best Director and best
Performance by an actress from the
British Independent Film Awards,
Ben: at the uh, British Academy
Film Awards, it won outstanding
debut by a writer, director of
producer, and was nominated for
best actress and outstanding British
Jeremy: First full length film.
Alicia: Sorry, this was a debut.
Jeremy: Yeah.
This, this
Ben: this is Remi Weekes's debut,
which I mean, that's very exciting.
I mean, just think about what, just
think about what he can do, like, you
know, in the future as a filmmaker, like
if this is his debut film, holy shit.
Alicia: wow.
All right.
Y'all get to
Ben: Yeah, good movie.
Alicia: Jeremy.
Ben,
Jeremy: Yes,
Alicia: you can do this, right?
your debut film can be this good, right?
Ben: I've got, I mean, I I wrote
the, I wrote an issue one to
a horror script, we'll see if
Alicia: Hmm?
Ben: can do the rest.
Jeremy: yeah.
I'm gonna write a, a horror movie all
about the uh, terrors of being a lower
middle class white man in America.
So it's what the people are
really longing for right now.
Ben: I'm, I'm gonna write a horror
movie about the travails of being
a mid-tier horror podcast host.
Alicia: Aw.
You think we're mid
Ben: I mean,
Alicia: Aw,
Ben: look, I think our quality
is high, but the numbers are who?
The numbers?
We we're gold.
We're gold, we're
Alicia: to us.
Ben: people.
But the masses don't
understand how great we
Alicia: That's, that's what the
Jeremy: masses are not aware of us.
That's,
Ben: the, i,
Jeremy: they don't like
us, it's just that they
Ben: who will, I'm not out of touch.
It's the children who are wrong.
Alicia: His house is 100%
fresh on Rotten Tomatoes.
Ben: Again, who, who's gonna
be the fucking asshole that
gives this a negative review?
An asshole.
That's
Alicia: audience members, let's see,
Ben: I,
Jeremy: I mean, it's, it's a phenomenal
Ben: fucking.
I'm really surprised, even like
the sun didn't give it like a bad
Alicia: Peter m Peter M says Boring.
Made no sense.
Ben: Peter
Alicia: this is the only thing that
Jeremy: Peter
Alicia: m has ever rated.
Ben: Touch some fucking
Alicia: Carol.
One and a Half Stars.
This is not a horror movie, it's
more of a social commentary.
Carol
Ben: as if,
Alicia: I came by four stars.
Ben: our entire show
Alicia: Carol gave, Carol gave, I came by.
Four stars.
It has an audience score.
46%.
Carol.
Question your taste
Ben: Carol voted for Brexit.
Alicia: Abigail S gives it two stars.
And here's what Abigail s says.
It was good at first, but then it kept
getting harder and harder to understand.
It also dragged on a lot.
And I started watching it at
1.5 speed, halfway through.
Like how did it get a
hundred percent legit?
The best movie ever will get
like a 6%, but this gets a
Ben: is she watching that she
thinks her the best movie ever made?
Got a 6%.
Alicia: Abigail has rated nothing else.
This is the only thing that
Ben: That's racism right there.
That's the racism.
Jumping
Alicia: be
Jeremy: abigail's a Gen Z
kid watching things at 1.5
Ben: 1.5.
Are you fucking with
Alicia: I, gotta say, I don't
feel like this dragged at all.
This is one movie.
.That was, it's like an hour 30, an
hour, 33, and I absolutely felt like
Ben: Very well-paced.
Th this is a good movie.
I do not have bad things
to say about this movie.
Jeremy: Yeah.
Ben: got
Alicia: get that they're refugees
with P T S D, but they really could
have built a really horror film.
Doesn't even
Ben: I, I I feel like once you admit
to like, oh, I watched this movie
at 1.5 speed, like your letter box
account should just be deleted.
Alicia: Oh, Chama, rotten Tomatoes.
Jeremy: Well now that we know what
Olive Rotten Tomatoes thinks about
it uh, it sounds like we would
recommend people to watch this, right?
Ben: Hell yeah.
Hell fucking yeah.
Alicia: don't know because it's beautiful.
It's well-acted.
I think it was well-paced.
I think it, the themes were interesting.
I think the topics were very interesting.
But child endangerment is,
like I said, my big trigger.
Um, And I made it through.
I made it through, but.
If that is a big trigger for you, then
this may be one that you just want
to hear someone else tell you about.
Jeremy: Yeah, I mean, I, I would say as
with so many things that we talk about on
this show, mind the trigger warnings but
like, it is an incredibly well made movie.
There's no wasted space in this movie.
Everybody that's in it is great and
it's, it moves quickly and has a lot of
interesting stuff to do and say in it.
So like, if it's a question of
qualities, whether people should see
it or not, they absolutely should.
If, you know, it's a question of
like, do you wanna see war crimes
in genocide and uh, children being
endangered and, and or killed?
Well, you know, maybe , maybe keep that
in mind, but as opposed to last week
where, you know, we were talking about
master and that was like, nah, skip it.
This is one that it's
like, yeah, definitely,
Ben: I mean, I did so and sounds
like I made the right call.
Jeremy: I think
Ben: Oh, I, I'm sorry for y'all.
Uh, Missing last week's, but uh, my
publisher sure likes scheduling a
lot of deadlines during the holidays,
Jeremy: Yeah, it's funny
cause they're not even there.
Ben: yeah, but I'm back now.
Jeremy: Sneaking of being back
now that you are back, what
do you wanna recommend, Ben?
Alicia: That was a smooth transition.
Speaking of being back,
what do you wanna recommend?
Ben: So if you want a movie that, mm,
maybes tackles themes a little less
intelligently and a lot less sensitively,
but does continue the general theme of how
a spaced horror check out poultrygeist.
Alicia: Hmm Hmm hmm.
Jeremy: Should you gonna recommend
house to go with his house?
Very different movies.
House and his house.
Ben: yes.
I mean,
of course we need now the
crossover, his Haus, who.
Alicia: y'all are better than me
because we said his house and you
started singing our house, but all
I keep thinking about is flory.
Jeremy: Oh, to my house.
Alicia: Yeah.
Yeah.
Jeremy: Hmm.
Alicia: Sorry about that
Jeremy: you
wanna
recommend,
Alicia: Alicia, cut
this, cut this, cut this.
Cut this.
Cut this.
Jeremy: Is that what you
wanna recommend Alicia?
Flow writer.
Alicia: No, I absolutely
Ben: Yes, we all, we always recommend
Jeremy: Hmm.
Ben: Flory on the show.
Alicia: Although I will say that Jeremy
and I were talking about how mu, how
little we think about Flo Writer for Flo
writer to have so many hit songs like,
Ben: As a society, we
don't think about flory
Alicia: but we don't think
about flow right enough.
Um, I would absolutely recommend
that everyone read Beloved, and
that is, that one is a child
endangerment as well and it is very
heavy and it is very beautiful and.
. It, it, it is a lot.
Um, But the other thing that I
wanted to recommend that I haven't
listened to a lot of yet, but it's,
um, a podcast called Crossings,
the Refugee Experience in America.
, it's really interesting, but
again, it can be pretty heavy.
Jeremy: Yeah.
Ben: What would you like your
recommendation to be, Jeremy?
Jeremy: I was tempted to just recommend
something fun because this movie is
so heavy, but instead I'm going to
recommend something just as heavy which
is uh, the film Under the Shadow which
has a lot in common with this movie.
It takes place in uh, Tehran just
sort of like post-revolution in
sort of this, this war torn Tehran
that's being bombed and everything.
And it's about a, a woman who is
who was previously training to be a
doctor who post-revolution is sort of.
Cooped up in her house with her, her kid,
you know, having to wait for her husband
to go out and make money and have a job.
But simultaneously, like the city is being
bombed around them and also she is being
haunted by djinn that are also very like,
closely related to this same kind of idea
of like ghosts of the past and of, you
know, your society sort of haunting you
and, and needing to be remembered, but
also, you know, doing horrible stuff.
It's a really good movie.
Uh, I believe it's also on Netflix now.
That's where I saw it.
But yeah, it's uh, it all takes
place in Iran and it's really good.
I'd recommend checking it out.
I'm sure we'll talk about
it on here at some point.
Um,
Ben: We, this has been a big, fun,
heaviest fuck discussion today.
Jeremy: Yeah, absolutely.
Alicia, if people wanna have
more heavy discussions with you,
where can they find you online?
Alicia: They can find me at Alicia Whitley
on Twitter for however long that lasts.
Where I mostly talk about school
stuff now that I am a student.
So I don't talk as much about
teachings, well, I guess it's still
about teaching cuz I'm in school to
learn more about teacher education.
But yeah, it's, it's a very
boring Twitter account.
I don't know that you wanna go there.
Jeremy: I'm sure they'll be,
Alicia: I know.
I just need to get better
at saying pithy things.
I'm, I'm gonna wor that's
Jeremy: you just say 'em out
loud to me and you waste them.
You know?
You gotta put 'em on the internet where
everybody can see how pithy you are.
Ben: Yeah, that's
what Twitter's there
for.
Pithy, stray, pithy.
Alicia: That's what we should say.
What are our 2023 resolutions?
Mine is more boundaries and more.
Ben: That's a good resolution.
Jeremy: gonna get piff off.
Alicia: Do you know what pith is?
Jeremy: It's a helmet.
Alicia: That's the spongy white
tissue lining, the rind of an
orange, lemon, or other citrus fruit?
Jeremy: How does that relate
to the helmet with the
Ben: podcast like you hear
about, you hear discussion
about movies, and now you learn.
Citrus Facts shows a complete package,
Jeremy: Welcome to the
Citrus Facts Corner.
It's usually Emily's part of the show,
but you know, Alicia's filling in
Ben: It really is
Alicia: welcome to Citrus
Jeremy: is
Alicia: That's what we do here.
Jeremy: is usually industrial
music corner, but now it's citrus fast.
Ben: No lemon facts Fax.
Alicia: I'm sure there's
pithy industrial music.
Jeremy: Yes.
Um, And just because nobody
has said it this episode.
Neon Genesis Evangelion.
Alicia: Oh yeah.
And Man.
Jeremy: Yeah, Emily will be back
to say all those things next week.
Uh, In the meantime you can, uh,
Alicia: Ben hasn't said jojo's
Jeremy: oh, yeah,
Ben: Well, I did bring up
the spinoff with Rohan Keisha.
Alicia: That's true.
All right.
Um, Jeremy, where can
people find you online?
Jeremy: Uh,
Well, they can find me on my Twitter
and Instagram at j Rome five eight, and
on my website jeremy whitley.com, you
can uh, see everything that I write.
Alicia: And you're also gonna make a
TikTok for progressively horrified, right?
Jeremy: somebody
is, that's what the kids
are into these days.
Alicia: I don't know where
the kids are into these days.
Jeremy: What about you, Ben?
Where can people find you online?
Ben: Oh, I was gonna say, I think
the kids are in tab Bakugan.
I, I, I'm gonna go with Bakugan.
You can find me online on Twitter, at
Ben Con on Instagram at ben Con comics.
And do you mind if I do a little
little pluggin away for stuff?
Jeremy: Let's do it.
Plug it.
Alicia: Is there anything
we should pre-order?
Maybe
Ben: there is something
you should pre-order.
My debut uh, novel, a middle
grade adventure called l
Campbell wins their weekend.
It coming out from Scholastic October
17th in bookstores everywhere.
So mark your calendar.
It is available for pre-order Now.
Alicia: Middle
Ben: Yes.
Jeremy: a word.
You said novel.
You didn't say graphic novel.
Is that
Alicia: Yeah.
you said you missed the word graphic.
I
Ben: I did not, this is, this is pros.
There is the only art is on the cover.
And then it's just like, just words.
Just fucking so many words.
You just look at it and
it's just, oh my God.
Words.
Jesus.
Fuck.
Is it anything but words?
It's not, it's just words.
Alicia: I'm ex, I'm so excited to read it.
Ben: Oh, I, I really hope you enjoy it.
You know, it's about uh, a uh, spunky,
non-binary seventh grader going on
a real adventure of a day, hoping
to find uh, the one person that can
help 'em figure out how to stand up
for themselves and their identity.
Alicia: I love it.
Ben: Yeah.
So that is, again, El Campbell wins their
weekend out October 17th from Scholastic.
Jeremy: But you can pre-order it.
Na na, na na.
Now.
And of course, the podcast is on Patreon.
It progressively horrified our
website@progressivelyhorrified.transistor.fm
and on Twitter at Prague Horror Pod.
We would love to hear from you.
And speaking of loving to hear
from you, we would love it if you
would rate I review this podcast
wherever you're listening to it
right now, hit those five stars.
Leave us a nice review.
It'll help more people find us
and help us to continue to grow.
Thanks again for to you all for joining
us, and thank you for Alicia for uh,
stepping in for our third share today.
Alicia: Thank you so much for having me.
Um, You know, usually I just get to
listen to y'all talk and then yell
at your dumb opinions from my safe
space behind the computer screen.
Ben: My opinions
Jeremy: Now you'll have
to yell at yourself.
Alicia: Oh yeah.
I forgot that.
I'm mad at you a little bit
for like, bad hair is really
that low on your rankings list.
Like there was some talk of putting
no face Benny over bad hair.
What,
Jeremy: I mean, I feel like you
feel the existence of Vanessa
Williams forgives a lot, but
Alicia: I do indeed.
I do indeed.
All right.
I'll let you finish the podcast.
Go ahead.
Jeremy: well, thank you for that.
And until next time, stay horrified.