Alicia: Hey, just a heads up the episode
you're about to listen to is about crimes

of the future directed by David Cronenberg
and written by David Cronenberg.

Some relevant trigger warnings for this
movie include extreme gore and self-harm

and our host ranked this movie as scary.

If you'd like to learn more
about the movie, discussed this

evening please visit our website.

Progressivelyhorrified.transistor.fm
for show notes and a full transcript.

After the spooky music, we'll
talk about the movie in full.

So be forewarned.

There will be spoilers.

Now let's get onto the show.

Jeremy: Good evening and welcome to
Progressively Horrified, the podcast

where we hold horror to progressive
standards it never agreed to.

We're starting off a month of
talking about the works of director

David Cronenberg, and tonight
we're talking about his latest

outing Crimes of the Future.

I am your host Jeremy Whitley and
with me tonight I have a panel

of cinephiles and cenobites.

First, they're here to challenge the
sexy werewolf sexy vampire binary.

mY co-host Ben Kahn.

Ben, how are you tonight?

Ben: Well, I'm real worried
that this movie is just a real

elaborate advertising campaign for
Cronenberg's new line of Ikea stores.

Jeremy: Furniture is special.

Ben: You've got the Cronenberg
beds, the Cronenberg's chairs.

They give you orange goo
and purple candy bars.

Emily: This is definitely not ikea.

This is not austere enough, although it
is as uh, perplexing as the IKEA set up.

So, you know, Yes.

Jeremy: Yeah.

And also the Cinnamon Roll of
Cenobites, our co-host Emily Martin.

How are you tonight, Emily?

Emily: Feeling great, Feeling Cronin's.

Got a berg.

This movie has everything that you
expect out of a, out of Cronenberg, all

of the organs, the human organs, the
furniture organs, the PlayStation organs.

They're all there.

And uh,

Jeremy: new church organs.

Ben: This movie feels like if
someone made a film out of a Stefan

Sketch from SNL weekend update.

Jeremy: Oh God.

Ben: It's got everything.

mer, like sarcophagus, autopsies,
Scott Speedman, toxic candy bars.

Emily: It's a lot.

Jeremy: And our guest tonight,
writer, editor, and noted Kristen

Stewart stan, Megan Logan.

Megan, how are you tonight?

Megan: I'm feeling good, feeling
weird after watching this movie.

Worried that some of my organs'
registration might be overdue.

So I feel like that's something I need
to check as soon as we get off of this.

But yeah, feeling pretty good overall.

Ben: God, that would be how it works.

Like your lungs are overdue,
go in and renew your lungs.

Emily: That's what,
that's DMV sticker is now.

Ben: Yeah.

I love Kristen Stewart's character in
this movie because it's the kind of

like greasy mousey, inappropriately
horny, utter creep show of a character.

But it's played by Kristen Stewart.

Emily: She's so fantastic.

It's like, you see characters
like cartoon characters.

You see like anime characters
doing the Senpai Notice Me thing

and it's cute, but it's also like,
it always feels kind of weird and

offputting and this is that energy.

This is that what that energy should be.

It's not cute.

It's terrifying.

It's scares Viggo Mortenson.

It scares you.

It scares everybody.

Even though she is small and very awkward.

Jeremy: She is going to put
her hands in your mouth.

It is not good.

Emily: Yeah, I mean it almost
went all the way around for me.

Like there was her, her performance
was so good in this movie that I'm

like, do I want her hands in my mouth?

Ben: I mean, maybe do, do
you want me to answer that?

Cuz I, I mean, I can give
you my answer for that.

Jeremy: That's definitely a
situational question though.

Emily: Yeah.

Yeah.

Context is really important.

Ben: Yeah.

If you say so.

Emily: I do.

In fact.

Jeremy: You can't look of
Viggo Mortensen in the mouth.

It's inappropriate.

Well, Ben has John drawn the
short straw on this recap tonight?

So, they're gonna try and attempt to
tell you what this movie is about.

Take it away, Ben.

Ben: Well, this movie's mostly vibes,
so we're gonna really just tear into it.

So really, Crimes of the Future
is your run of the mill, dime a

dozen, biopunk, Art Noir movie.

Movie starts with a child eating
a garbage can and then getting

murdered by his mother with a pillow.

You know, nothing you
ain't seen a hundred times.

Real cliche.

Emily: Yeah.

Ben: We got our main couple, Saul Tenser
and Caprice, AKA Viggo Mortenson and Lea

Seydoux, a pair of performance artists
who do super artsy surgery on Saul's

freaky spontaneously created organs
cuz this is a world where humans are

evolving all weird and there's no pain or
infections and it's all very Cronenberg.

They register, the organ Saul makes
and Caprice cuts out with the National

Organ Registry, which is run by just
the most sketchy little fuckers ya

ever done see, including one played
by Kristen Stewart, who wants that

weird asset surgery, sex with Aragorn.

Unbeknownst to Caprice, Saul has started
working undercover for Detective Cope.

There's where their nu noir part comes in.

This undercover work has him meeting
with various figures in the performance

art scene, like a dancing poser covered
in ears, and a guy who puts a sex zipper

in his stomach and enters into a neo
organ beauty pageant, which never ends

up actually factoring into the plot.

After a surgery show, Saul is
approached by the father of dead

garbage can eater boy to do an autopsy.

It's Scott Speedman and he's the leader
of the evolutionary revolutionaries that

Saul is supposed to try and infiltrate.

They wanna change the world by modifying
themselves to eat plastic, and the kid

at the beginning was born eating plastic.

And even this movie knows that's
not how science actually works.

But also, fuck it, it's a movie.

At the autopsy show, which Scott Speedman
thinks will show the world that his son

was born being matter eater lad, they
lean, they learned to their fucked up

horror that the kid's corpse has already
had all of his organs surgically replaced.

Now it was Kristen Stewart who did it.

Scott Speedman takes a drill to
the head, and the secret of plastic

eating evolution is successfully
covered up cuz, you know, noir.

The movie ends with Saul deciding
that after all this maybe

evolving is cool after all.

He decides to leave his
new, new organs inside him.

And the movie finishes with him
eating a plastic candy bar that's

fatal to nonevolved humans.

And he just looks into the camera
and smiles, you know, vibes.

Emily: And cries.

And cries.

Ben: Yeah.

One- one single tear.

Yeah.

Very, very artsy.

Emily: Did he die?

Jeremy: Now, I do wanna, I
do wanna point out that Scott

Speedman doesn't get one drill.

He does get double teamed by
two ladies who both drill him.

Ben: Yes.

Emily: Yeah.

Jeremy: In the back of the head.

Ben: Which, you know, go to porn hub and
type in like dude drilled by two ladies.

Like normally you're in for a good time.

Scott Speedman does not have a good
time getting drilled by these ladies.

Emily: The ladies have a good time though.

Ben: Ladies have a great time.

Ladies are having a good
time this whole movie.

Jeremy: When you work for a company
that is implied to be sinister, but

that never factors into the movie.

Or at least we never find out what's
up with that in a way that like feels

weirdly Lynchian like, yes, there are
evil organizations, they're doing stuff.

Ben: So here's why all of the things that
the movie doesn't explain or don't end

up mattering kind of really don't bother
me about this movie, cuz I think the

movie just does such a great job of just
throwing you into what it's all about.

Like when you're, when it starts with
like, and now this small child is

eating a garbage can and his mother
just murders him with a pillow.

I'm like, cool.

That's the kind of movie we're in.

Like whatever the fucking weird
ass direction we're in, we're

going for like, we're starting
with artsy, surreal child murder.

Let's just buckle up wherever
the fuck this ride goes.

Like I guess we're there.

Nothing feels weird in a
way that breaks the movie.

It all feels weird in a way where it's
like, yep, this is what everything

else proceeded in this movie has
led me to believe would be the vibe.

It

Emily: is consistently weird.

Ben: Yes.

Emily: And you know, this movie
does not throw any like curve balls.

I mean, cuz it's one ex, one long-

Jeremy: It's all curve balls.

Emily: Curve balls.

You know, there's no, this is, it
is a weird installment in Cronenberg

because usually Cronenberg movies have
kind of a tongue in cheek thing, and

this one is like meta tongue in cheek.

And I would put it right up there
with a lot of the other art movies

like Susperia and Velvet Buzzsaw
that we've seen as being very

accurately- How should I put this?

I'm gonna- it is a very astute
parody of the art scene in its way.

Ben: It's a good capturing of
the feeling of art is gonna art.

It feels very metaliteral in this
way of storytell, you know, art or

creation as digging into yourself and
showing what's inside you to the world.

I think there's a viewing of this movie as
being an extremely, extremely literal form

of his vision of the creative process.

Megan: Yeah, I mean, I think one of
the things that really struck me is

immediately I felt like I had to put aside
whether or not I was enjoying the movie

I think you just had to, whether or
not I was enjoying it, immaterial to-

Jeremy: It's an experience.

Megan: Yeah, to whether or not
it had something to say or you

could learn something from it.

I think what I found most impactful,
what I took away from it, was kind

of what you're talking about, like
the, you know, the way that you enter

into this movie and you immediately
just have this sort of unflinching

acceptance of the utterly bizarre.

There are things that characters
flinch at and that does give you

sort of your calibration within
this world, but, You know, the

camera work is pretty pedestrian.

None of the words that are coming
out of people's mouths are so crazy.

I feel like when you get something
that is specific to the world, it's

easy to, to sort of grasp mm-hmm.

So you're not encountering anything that's
so out there that it feels alienating.

Cronenberg has kind of took, taken you
by the hand and said, Okay, all of your

touchpoints, all of your world stuff
is, is there, but I'm your North star.

Everything is based on this
thing that I am telling you.

And trust me when I say that this
weird digestion chair is normal.

This orchid bed isn't normal.

There are technicians for it.

They come like plumbers and it is normal.

Yeah, I just, I loved the sort
of normalizing of really strange

stuff, but not in a way that
felt to me really heavy handed.

Ben: This movie in a way
reminded me of like Yu-Gi-Oh!

in its way of combining like the
fantastical and the mundane where it's

like, no, this is gonna be like pretty
recognizable to like, you know, we're

gonna treat this the way like, you
know, you would treat like mega sports

stars, but it's children's card games.

This is like, no, we're still in the
world of art and fine art and super

bougie, like fine art and performance art.

But now it's all surgery.

Like instead of Yu-Gi-Oh!

cards, it's crazy surgery machines.

Emily: But it's not-

Jeremy: Time to d-d-d-d-d- do surgery!

Emily: Oh God.

Ben: Like just that way of being like,
you know, it's sim like we're gonna give

you the familiar but a version of the
familiar that's really obsessed with

this one thing I wanna do a lot with.

Emily: It is one of those things that you
see a lot in like anime, where you have

this one like super crazy world conceit
that everybody just accepts and then is

like so fully co incorporated, you know?

And that does come from the, the
very heady science fiction stuff

from the eighties and in some
cases back from Cronenberg himself.

So, you know, sort of,
self-referential system there.

But the way that this movie is so
genuine about everything and everybody's

performance is really amazing.

Like, you really do get involved with
these characters because they are

cartoony, but, the actors perform
those cartoony roles with such

like real genuine portrayals that.

It's sold.

Like it's, I, I'm so, like senpai notice
me, girl sells it to me, even though she

seems like a fucking cartoon character.

Ben: Viggo Mortensen is physically
incapable of being ironic.

Emily: Yeah, I guess.

Jeremy: So I'm, I'm gonna be like the
dissenting voice on this one, I think.

Ben: Be the hater.

Let the hate flow through you, Jeremy.

Jeremy: There are Cronenberg movies
that I like and we're gonna talk

about some of them later this month.

And there's one person that
makes a lot of movies that

almost none of them do I enjoy.

And I have to say this is
Cronenberg at his most.

David Lynchian.

Like his most, Like, this is the weird
shit I want to do, so I'm gonna do it.

Fuck you if you don't like it.

Kind of.

Emily: That's what I
have stuff love about it.

Jeremy: And like I watched this movie
consciously trying not to hate it

as I was going through it, and by
the time I got to the end, it ended

and I was like, God, I know what
you're doing with that last shot.

But also I feel like I missed something.

So like, let me go back and try and
like, look at some, you know, some

summaries, some explanations of this.

I went back and pulled up like what
happens in this movie and looked

at different people explaining
the themes and everything.

And I was like, No, I got it.

I just don't care.

Like, I just-.

Like.

That's literally my reaction to, to
this at the end is just like, so what?

I feel like David Cronenberg cut
open his stomach, pulled out his

weird extra organ and was like, Look.

And I was like, Gross.

I don't wanna see that.

I don't care.

Emily: I'll, I like it.

Jeremy: I'm not into it.

Ben: I, I knew this movie
was extremely my shit.

When you've got Viggo Mortensen just
writhing on this insane bio rotating bed.

And then Caprice just walks up
and being like, "How's the bed?"

I'm like, Oh, like that level of
weirdness taken completely at face value.

I'm like, Oh, I am in, this is,
oh the fucking energy I love.

Jeremy: So much of that energy
in this particular film is

just fucking discomfort though.

Like, and I don't, I don't
wanna watch two hours that's

Viggo Mortensen going *grunt*.

Ben: Good, like grunting!

Jeremy: Like it's not fun for me.

And that anytime he was in that fucking
eating chair, which just like, basically

just rocks him back and forth and
throws 'em all over the place and looks

like every Cronenberg flesh machine
that's been in, you know, this and

exist ends and everything else I was
just like, Oh, I hate this so much.

Okay.

I want this scene to be over.

Ben: I'm not gonna lie, that chair
absolutely looks like something

the CIA would force people into
in get know a hundred percent.

Like that chair legitimately
looks torturous.

Like I'm desperate to ask Viggo Mortensen
what filming in that chair was like.

The bed I could see being kind cool.

Maybe they put in some like,
massage chair technology into it.

That chair looks legitimately like some
like kind of fucking Gulag torture chair.

Jeremy: Yeah.

And I, I feel like the only, the only
aspect of this movie that I found

particularly interesting, well, I mean
not the, the one that I found the most

interesting was like these two women
that work for the repair shop that like

are super fans of this like Chair and
of Saul and are like sexually into this

idea of cutting people apart in this
thing and turn out to also be some sort

of uh, assassins who it never explains
to us who they are and what it is

they're working for behind the scenes.

Like why they murder this dude.

like, That was the stuff that I was
like, No, I, I'm interested in that.

No, we're not, we're not
gonna talk about that.

We're gonna go back to Viggo Mortensen
sitting in his fucking chair.

Oh my god.

Ben: Energy.

Like, they're in a completely
different kind of media.

And that media is a David
Cronenberg HGTV show.

Emily: Yes, Yes.

Jeremy: Now fucking that I would watch.

Megan: Yeah.

Agreed.

Yeah.

I would watch the, the orchid
bed technicians all day long.

Jeremy: I get this picture of
David Cronenberg, like remodeling

people's house and it's like, yeah,
I put a curtain here, May, it looks

like it's made of human flesh.

That'll be fun to like go from
one room to another through that.

And I'm like, Cronenberg, stop.

Emily: Cronenberg builders.

The, this old Cronenberg
house this old berg.

There you go.

I mean, Berg is just a
city, but it's a cronan.

Anyway.

Ben: The Cronen suburbs.

Emily: The Cronen 'burbs.

That's a good one!

Yeah.

Ben: The, what do you think the
plastic candy bar tastes like?

It has to have flavor.

The one guy like, who like was killed by
it, like fucking chewed and swallowed.

So it clearly couldn't have been so
gross that he would've just spat it out.

Now maybe it's just the purple and the
flakes in it, but I like to imagine it's

got like a wildberry type of flavor.

Like a real blueberry.

Emily: Yeah!

Yeah.

Like a, like a fruit gusher.

Ben: Yeah!

Emily: Blueberry blue flavor.

Jeremy: Like did Scott Speedman
trick this man into eating his toxic

candy bar just because he was rude?

Like-.

Ben: Did he- did he even trick him or
was it just like, I take your candy?

Emily: I think part of me read
that as him just trying to

like natural selection people.

Jeremy: Well, like he was, he was
listening to the two women and like

invested in their conversation and
this dude just like sort of came

in and elbowed him out of the way.

And so he was like, Well, let's
see what happens when this dude,

when I put down my candy bar, I
bet this dude will try and eat it.

Emily: You know, I think
that's quite likely.

Ben: We later learn is an undercover
police officer, which is just like,

Well, I think that's fentanyl.

Quick.

Let's put it in my mouth to make sure.

Emily: He, Yeah.

I don't know.

There's a lot going on.

Jeremy: Police undercover
subplot in this thing.

Like I didn't need any of that.

Ben: I really think that was all
Cronenberg trying to be noir.

Like I think Saul is meant to
be like a noir protagonist.

He is Cronenberg Sam Spade.

Emily: This movie is definitely
one of those, like if you're

into it, you're into it.

And one thing I will say at the
top here is we talk about all the

Cronenberg organs and shit like that.

But the one thing that this movie is
going to be a deal breaker for those of

you who are not into it, is Mouth sounds.

This is a, a very mouth,
sound heavy movie.

It's probably a really important
part of the sound design

and the point of the movie.

But there's very intimate mouth sounds and
various other bodily sounds in this film.

Nothing.

So, droll as like, the humorous bodily
sounds, the mostly uncomfortable

which I think, you know, again,
is the point because this movie

to me is a lot about the body.

More so than a lot of the
other Cronenberg stuff.

You know, with maybe the exception
of like Videodrome where it's

like all hail the new flesh.

Okay.

That's definitely a about the body.

This movie has surgery as the new sex.

Ben: Yeah.

Now he, he has moved on
to all Hail the New Sex.

Emily: Yeah.

Which-.

Ben: It's like, this movie is horny.

This movie is crazy horny.

Emily: But all of his movies are horny
with the, like the crazy flesh shit.

Like that's, it's, they are all-.

Ben: Not a complaint.

Again, love this movie.

Like, like this movie sets itself
up from the beginning to have the

energy of, and then Viggo Mortensen
and Lea Seydoux get naked in the

sarcophagus, like alien pod and then
just gets sliced up for a few minutes.

And it's like, okay.

Jeremy: It's in a fun, sexy way.

Ben: Yeah.

Sexy cutting.

It's like fucking, Yeah,
you do you Cronenberg.

Like this movie invites you to just
vibe and it's a dark vibe, but it's, I

feel fun vibe if you can get with it.

Emily: Yeah.

Well I feel like there's, there's
more to it than just the vibe for me.

Like I was seeing the commentary about
the body and progress and our relationship

to our body, which, you know, again, I
feel is proliferates David Cronenberg's

work, but none of it really discusses it
as much as this movie discusses it with

these characters, the way that they do.

With them being artists.

And then them also being in the midst
of a, you know, the evolution revolution

and then this like decay that's all
around them and trying to, you know, how,

what the progress looks like for them.

There's body standards certainly, but
the idea of accepting or rejecting the

changes in your body, which also has
to do with how the inve environment

is affecting our bodies and aging.

Ben: I love what you said about like
the environment around them, because

I love that there are no like nice
clean surfaces like in this world.

Like everything is rusted, everything
is like, kind of falling apart.

And there's that element of like,
there are no infections, so no one

washes their hands, which gross.

Emily: Yeah.

Ben: Wash your hands.

Avoiding infections shouldn't be
the only reason you wash your hands.

Jeremy: Especially if you're gonna
get putting 'em in people's mouth.

Kristen Stewart.

Emily: It feels Yeah.

More like cutting each
other on the street.

Ben: It feels very death and rebirth,
that this is a movie all about human

evolution set against the backdrop of a
world that is so clearly in visible decay.

Emily: Right.

Ben: And also, I mean, when you look
at just how fucked up and janky that

world is you, makes you like, Man,
maybe we should evolve to eat plastic.

If we're gonna keep polluting,
maybe we should eat pollution.

Maybe that's a pro- maybe we
solve on the problem of ourselves.

Maybe I am insane for looking at
Scott Speedman's plan and being

like, Well, maybe let's hear him out.

Emily: No, I think that it's,
it's very pro His decision.

It's, you know, it's
about the, the corruption.

What's, what's your take on the
uh, the evolution revolution, Megan

?
Megan: Well, I think to me, one of
the, one of the core, I guess even

most confusing- I'm not even gonna
call it confusing, it's actually,

it makes perfect sense to me, but I,
if I'm remembering correctly, and I

should have just done a tally, but I
think the only people who are actually

allowed to evolve or to like, to push
evolution forward from within are men.

So that sort of like gender
politic was really odd to me.

I feel like Cronenberg had
something to say about it.

I don't know that he said it.

And I don't know that he said
it deftly, but it was odd to me

that like, you know, at least.

From what we saw, which was Viggo
Mortensen, Scott Speedman, and

the ear guy everyone who was a
part of this inner beauty pageant

or like evolving was, a man.

It was a man who was doing this.

I didn't know if it was intentional.

I, I assume it had to be
because everything in this

movie was so intentional.

Emily: Yeah.

Megan: But I don't, like I said, I
don't know that he really got his

point across in that specific area.

Ben: Yeah.

Like, I know there's the one woman
performance artist who has like all

the scars, like across her face, and
that seems to be Caprice's character

arc is her wanting to take in more
active role in this evolution and

stuff, which I wish I had more focus.

Like more on but it definitely feels
intentional and gendered that it's

only Saul and Brecken who we see as
internally and truly biologically

evolving humanity to the next level
while like it's only these two male

characters who do it and everyone else
is just doing surgery or modifications.

Though I do love this society
that seems to be on its way to

just being a planet of cenobites.

Of XYs, ah, , sorry.

This population that seems to
be halfway on its way to being a

planet of cenobites from Hellraiser.

Like they've already
got torture equals sex.

Like they are already, they like give
them a thousand years and they will

be like, Yep, we've got our planet.

We are all crazy pain-free
torture sex people.

And we invented puzzle box based
portal technology to spread our crazy

violent sex surgery to other planets.

Emily: Yeah, there's, there is
certainly that commentary about

the d disappearance of pain.

Ben: Hellraiser is actually a
time loop movie and it's cannon

with Crimes of the Future.

Emily: I mean, that would
be really interesting.

But I think Megan,you make a really
good point about how all of those

characters that are leading in this
conversation about evolution are male.

You certainly have male detractors
but the female characters

are not incredibly involved.

They're, the artists that are
working on things, but they are not

creating things like the men are.

And I, That does bother me a little bit.

Ben: But Totally.

Yeah, you're totally right.

Like it's too, this movie is too

Jeremy: intentional for that level.

Had any, it's never been accused of having
any gender issues in his movies before.

Ben: yeah.

This movie is too intentional for
that level of genderedness not

to be, if not intentional, then
too heavy on the subconscious.

Jeremy: There's a part of me that, you
know, I was saying the whole undercover

and cops plot kind of doesn't work for me.

Like, I think like the character
of cope, the cop I don't know

what he wants or what he's doing.

He seems surprised that like,
Saul even wants to be part of it.

Like he genuinely says he's
surprised that, you know, the Saul

Tenser wants to be undercover.

And then like every information,
every bit of information that Saul

brings him he's like, Oh yeah, we
kind of already knew about that.

Oh yeah, we've been working on
that, you know, underground.

We just didn't feel like providing
you with any information whatsoever.

Ben: I mean, that's where, to me,
where the noir elements really come

in is this element of all the things
the protagonist did didn't matter.

Yeah.

Like the plan failed, like
that felt very noir about it.

Yeah.

Like nothing he did
actually had that impact.

Right.

I don't know, there's just
something very chinatown about

it that this detective like wins.

That he completely gets his way that
he won without Saul even knowing what

his objective was, which was just
like, keep this secret of this kid

being born eating plastic which was
like, yay conspiracy successfully kept.

You have kept us from having matter
eater lad and thus the legion

of superheroes will never form

Jeremy: Yeah.

I mean, the other thing just for me
is that I think some of this movie

working hinges on your like investment
in this underground revolutionary

conspiracy of, you know, these, these
guys changing the human body to be able

to digest plastic and like all this.

But like, I don't find Scott's
Speedman to be particularly compelling.

Especially not as like-.

Ben: That's a noticeable
character of this movie.

I will say that's a very noticeable
theme I found in Scott Steinman's career.

That he is not compelling.

Yeah.

Jeremy: Like I feel like-

Ben: I will make you
watch underworld one day.

He will not be a memorable
part of it world.

He will be a very major, he is
a very major part of underworld

and is very forgettable.

Jeremy: I feel like Saul is so much
like weirder and more sinister as the

protagonist of this movie than Scott
Speedman, who is supposed to be the

like weird underground revolutionary is,
it's just like he's a very like pretty.

Hollywood attractive looking man
who's like, Yeah, we're gonna,

we're going underground and
we're gonna change the world.

And uh, for all that we've talked
about, like how dirty and ugly

things look in this movie, it is full
of nothing but skinny, attractive

people, I would like to say.

Yeah.

Ben: Extremely feels like he is- yeah.

Scott Speedman feels like he is the
overwhelmed every man thrust into a world

beyond his comprehension, not the leader
of the world beyond his comprehension.

But I will say, to me, from a
transhumanist exploration level, I

really like the idea of this movie is
exploring like, what is the official

line between human and not human from
a true biological and legal standpoint?

What will the power of the state
be in trying to maintain, like

in or to uphold human biology?

Who will try to advance human biology.

I just find it very, even if it's
not the themes or like aren't super

pertinent to our, like, everyday life
of 2022 I still find it very interesting

concepts and very well explored.

Even if not fully explored, it still
gives you enough to make your mind wander.

And this movie doesn't have much to
do with politics, but yet it's very

political just for the political
situation of super into the future.

Emily: Yeah.

Megan, I have a question.

Megan: Mm-hmm?

Emily: Are you in New York?

Megan: I'm not, I'm in LA.

Emily: Oh.

Oh, okay.

So that's good to know because
I want to ask, have you been

in any of those art scenes?

Or I should say, have you
witnessed any of those art scenes?

in either city?

I

Megan: mean, not really.

And I, I think I'm probably a
little bit too norm core to like

go to any kind of performance
art place and like feel normal.

I mean, not that you're
supposed to feel normal, but

-.
Right.

Uh.

Ben: Just show up with your
eight millimeter camera and

you'll be fine according to
this movie, you'll fit right in.

Emily: Every camera ever.

Ben: Everybody with their eight
millimeter in whatever year this is.

Megan: Right.

Definitely.

Yeah, I mean, I haven't, done that
much exploring of like, any kind

of performance art space here.

I mean, like a lot of people, I think
I did a lot more of that in college.

I went to college in Iowa City, which
is a little liberal enclave in Iowa.

Emily: Oh, nice.

Megan: But yeah, I mean, weird
performance art spaces there.

I've done like some weird festivals
and played in like backroom of bead

shops and weird people doing weird,
you know, human sculpture stuff.

So it's not unfamiliar, but not, not in
the New York, LA like quite serious scene.

Emily: I mean, the scenes every
scene, whether it be art or

whatever, media or sport or whatever.

I mean, there is the gatekeeping and
then there's the jadedness and the

general jaded jadedness and I, you
know, this movie does pick that up

specifically with that art scene in mind.

But I feel like there's a, there is that
commentary about the scene culture and

that is relatable to most niche scenes.

Although this one seems to be pretty,
like, we're pretty uh, popular.

Ben: That's where the YugiOH
connection comes from.

This niche thing is the most popular.

This entire society is based
around this niche interest.

Emily: Yeah.

Well, I mean, it's like you, like any of
these kind of Shōnen thing, which is weird

because like Shōnen stuff is very sport.

You know, like this guy has these
powers and that guy has those powers

and yeah, you can, quantify fine
art scene kind of stuff with that,

which I think is really hilarious.

And it goes into that with Velvet
Buzzsaw does a really great

job of, of discussing that.

Ben: Even if you're
not in performance art.

We are all in art and comics.

Yeah.

And so I think we could
all relate to this.

I felt this to be the most relatable
moment of the whole movie, and it's

when Saul is going to see the ear guys
dance and he is both simultaneously

dismissing him as a poser, while being
visibly jealous of his crowd size.

Emily: Yeah.

Megan: Yes.

Emily: Yeah.

Ben: That felt so fucking real.

Jeremy: They're not even real
hairs that he grew on his face.

They're just sewn on.

Ben: That sense of both like professional
jealousy and a need to overcome

it with this arrogant superiority.

I'm like, as a defense mechanism,
I'm like, that felt really fucking

real and made me really like Saul.

Emily: And that's the genuineness
of this, of the, these portrayals.

You know, even though the situation
is so crazy, but it's so, you know,

the characters act in really relatable
ways, which makes it a lot easier

to accept these crazy conceits.

In terms of the character, I feel like
there's a lot of Cronenberg himself

here, which, you know, the, you can say
that about a lot of his movies because

he has such a big part in the craft.

Go ahead.

Ben: Are you saying there might be
something of himself in the gray haired

character who dresses an all black and
is a like absolute pioneer in his medium,

focused on body horror, who is spawned
a legion of imitators he finds lacking?

Jeremy: But also kind of hates himself,
which is why he's working undercover

we find out because he is like, Yeah, I
kind of hate that my body's like this.

I wouldn't stop.

Emily: Does Cronenberg actually
like dress, like bristo warden?

Does he dress, does he go around with
a hood and like a I mean I'm sure he

has a face mask cuz you know, pandemic.

But like-.

Jeremy: I assume he just, I
assume he just dresses like,

uh, his character on Discovery.

Emily: I forgot he was on Discovery.

Ben: He is, he has show, he
has some scenes with Michelle

Yeoh and it's still delightful.

Emily: Oh my God.

Thank you for remind-.

Now I have to watch the rest of
Discovery cuz like that spaceship,

that the fricking mushroom ship is
pretty Cronenberg in and of itself.

Ben: The, mycelial network.

Jeremy: He's a recurring character
in the last few seasons, so.

Emily: Beautiful.

Jeremy: He's showing up.

Emily: Oh, bless.

Bless this mess.

Jeremy: With his, with his crazy glasses.

And, very serious mannerisms.

Ben: We're in like the year
3000 now and people still got

fucking Coke bottle glasses.

Emily: Yeah.

So yes, I do think that this movie
is very much like very personal to

David Cronenberg, which is why it
does, it didn't bother me as much the,

the weird disparate gender portrayal
because it felt like it was so much

about bodies and not just, not about
gender in terms of those bodies.

Even though, like you have to admit,
any transhumanist conversation or, or

body modification conversation is going
to evoke a gender conversation if you

really want to talk about representation
in film, or I should say in media.

So, you know, I can't
dismiss that entirely.

Ben: I, I don't know about representation,
but I do feel like this movie represents

one end of the Kristen Stewart Spectrum

I, I, I think it's Crimes of the Future
on One End, and like her as Princess

Diana on the other, and every other
movie and every other performance falls

somewhere in between these two characters.

Emily: Megan, what did you think
specifically as a Kristen Stewart stan?

How, how do you feel about this
character of, what is her name?

Tri Tim Timlin.

Timlin.

Timlin.Timlin, yeah.

Ben: Which is just such a fucking
squirrly ass name for this squirrly

ass motherfucker of a character.

Megan: Really.

I mean, truly.

You know, the note that I have here
is that in a movie where people are

digging around in their own bodies
and taking out tattooed organs.

The thing that made me the most
uncomfortable was Kristen Stewart's

apparent heterosexuality and
attraction to Viggo Mortenson.

That I found disgusting.

Okay.

In a, in a way that I was not
disgusted by, by some of the, like,

gore and, and kind of surgery stuff.

I mean, sort of kidding.

But her performance was amazing.

Jeremy: Incredibly uncomfortable.

The scene where they actually
kiss, I was like, Eh.

Megan: It's so-.

It's-.

Ben: I'm like, Whose idea was this?

It's like, I love Viggo Mortensen.

He gives a great performance.

I look at him.

I'm not, I'm not seeing much of
the Aragorn swagger these days.

By design.

I love that his attitude has
been like, I know how Hollywood

stars are supposed to be.

Fuck you.

I refuse.

You and you will have
my regular human body.

Deal with it.

Emily: Yeah, there was this, also very
personal kind of element to it that I was

reading from that about Viggo Mortenson's
uh, con or his character's condition,

Saul's condition, and this weird idea
that Timlin was fetishizing him so much

and he wasn't sure if he was into it.

And then he decided that he really, really
wasn't like the whole thing where he was

like, I'm not really good at the old sex.

Like he really wasn't into.

The sexuality.

Like he never seemed that aroused
by anything except for when he

was getting the organs taken out.

The only thing that was arousing for
him was pain, which was that commentary

on the, the general jadedness of
humanity and also this microcosm

of the, the scene where, you know,
everybody's talking about that jadedness

and trying to really push limits.

And in this case, you know, the, the
physical sensations are incorporated

with the ideal, which is the whole thing
with performance art, the sort of, the

whole definition of performance art.

That comment about fetishization and
her character being that uncomfortable,

I thought was really interesting.

Because so much of his character
was about him being sick.

And there was a whole commentary that, it
was a, the thesis that she said about how

he was gaining agency over his own body.

And that's why his
artwork was so profound.

Ben: She meant that she thinks
that he's actually willing

himself to grow these organs.

Emily: Yeah.

And that's sort of the question of
his artistic career as all these

people have this theory that he's like
growing these organs as a statement

where he's like, No, these are tumors
and I just want them out of my body.

And, you know, if that can be something
that I can have agency over, then

Ben: I think-.

Emily: Awesome.

Ben: I think there's also with
Kristen Stewart's character, I

think there's also like kind of
an element of like the toxic fan.

Like She's fetishizing this
parasocial relationship she

has with this famous artist.

Megan: Mm-hmm.

Ben: But no, I think it's also the
way that you know, they kinda have two

conversations, so to speak, about sex.

And one of them is this new sex, which
he goes like, Ooh, I'm into that.

Yeah.

New sex.

And him being, I'm not
good at the old sex.

I think it's in addition to all the ways-.

Jeremy: Could you just
cut me open instead?

Ben: Yeah.

Like in addition to all the ways, I
think the elements that I think uh,

Timlin represents, I think it's also
just representing of that Saul's

character is something that must
exist completely of this new evolved

humanity who can no longer even
do the old sex, who can no longer

exist in the old modems of humanity.

Megan: Yeah, and I think, for me,
I do think that there's a moment,

there was a turning point for, for.

I think my relationship with this film
that was driven by Kristen Stewart and

it wasn't, wasn't the hands in the mouth.

It was, it was much earlier.

And like I said, for me, at a
certain point quite early on,

whether or not I was enjoying the
movie became kind of immaterial.

I've seen, you know, I had to take
a few film classes in college.

I've seen plenty of movies that I
didn't enjoy but learn something from.

Right.

So I think you get to that
point where I feel on this

movie, very comfortably middle.

I'm like, I don't think I enjoyed it.

I have not stopped thinking about it.

And I watched it a little over a week ago.

Which is for me, I think, you
know, artistically a success.

Whether or not I enjoyed it,
but the specific point that I'm

talking about is in the very first
performance that Timlin attends.

And you see her with the organ
registry guy, the kind of very strange

man who she ends up outs stranging,
but it doesn't seem like that's

gonna be at the, the case at first.

Ben: They're both real, real strange.

Emily: Real strange.

Jeremy: His name is Wippet, I believe?

Emily: Wippet.

Yeah, Wippet.

Megan: Yeah.

So she's like watching this and while
everybody else looks kind of thrilled

by what's happening, she looks a
little bit disgusted and I think we

learn later that it was, it was more
jealousy than any kind of, you know,

actual kind of recoiling at, at what is
happening conceptually or physically.

But that was the moment that I think
takes you and drives you a little

bit further into a further circle
of Cronenbergian Hell, if you will.

Yeah.

Where you kind of think, you
know, you're like, Okay, okay.

I, I think I'm getting kind of
an audience proxy here where

something is strange about this.

And then we find that it is her
attraction to him that is so strange.

And you're, you realize that
things have gotten stranger on you.

And it's driven by Timlin and that ends up
being the case throughout the film, right?

She's kind of, your race to the
bottom of fucking weirdness.

And that is, in and of
itself, really impressive.

And I, I think, like you were talking
about Emily her performance and most

of these performances are really
fine tuned, which is impressive.

There's an incredible amount of
control, over scene and performance.

And I think that's the thing that
really, really stuck with me,

whether or not I, I really liked
the film or enjoyed watching it.

Emily: Right.

Jeremy: I think like going off of that
and talking about, the disgust you

mentioned at Kristen Stewart being
attracted to Viggo Mortenson in this,

like, I find it so interesting and odd,
and it may just be that we've all sort

of passed David Cronenberg by on this
point, but like that his movies are so

obsessed with weird sex and kink and
things like that, but are extremely

heteronormative and extremely binary.

Emily: Mm-hmm.

Jeremy: Like everybody is, is
very male and or very female.

And there's like very, my everybody,
everybody's straight, despite the

fact that they're all into like
weird surgery shit with each other.

I don't know why gender would enter
specifically into that relationship, but-.

I don't know.

It's weird.

Ben: What I.

My queer reading of this, and by
queer reading, I mean my absolute

refusal to see a Kristen Stewart
character be heterosexual.

Is that her fetish goes so far
that what she's attracted to isn't

Viggo Mortensen himself so much as
she is attracted to the organs and

that like, and his changing body.

In her fantasy, it's not that she
is his new Caprice, it's that she

becomes him and he becomes the Caprice
and she becomes the one generating

like the organs and the newness.

So, again, this is me being like,
trying to rationalize it and find

just that like, nope, I can't
accept straight Kristen Stewart.

Is that she is, is that it is
the fetish is the organs and the

evolution regardless of the gender
associated with that evolution.

Emily: Yeah.

Megan: I think you're exactly right.

We're gonna, I'm gonna go with that.

Yeah.

That's much more comforting.

Yeah.

Jeremy: Well I think that's, that
is absolutely a valid reading of it.

But that also then raises the
question of why in these in the

stories it is always a very strict
uh, gender binary for Cronenberg.

Like where the, the guy is the one
that's, you know, seeing this stuff

and being horrified by what's going on
while women are frequently monstrous

or dangerous whether it's rabid or
brood or in any number of his films.

Emily: A lot of the David Kornberg
movies that like The Fly and Dead Ringers

was another one that was really weird.

Where there is like kind of a,
you know, this objectification

of the female character.

Seeing those, those movies as
opposed to movies like The Brood

or this movie, which are a lot more
of about the the sexuality and the

gender of like the female characters
are, are talked about in that way.

And they seem kind of monstrous.

Jeremy: They just want something from him.

Emily: Yeah.

Jeremy: They all want to be able
to produce things like he can.

They, they just want to
take this ability from him.

If only it's so very I'm
a genius and everybody-.

Ben: If only all these creepy
lessers could make things of

true originality and beauty like
Cronenberg- I mean Saul Tenser could.

Emily: I mean that's, and that's very
specific to this particular movie that,

that envy that is seen with a lot of these
characters that are especially female.

But I feel like the weird flesh
monster aspect of his movies is

really does invite a queer reading.

Like Ben, you were talking about.

Where, And that's, that's a weird
thing to say, but um, the- the

fact that you have all this-.

Ben: That I was right?

I mean, I'm, I I'm not-.

Emily: No!

Ben: I mean, I usually don't
believe myself either, so I get-.

Emily: No, I'm saying like-.

Ben: I get you, I'm on
your side with that!

Emily: No, dang it.

I'm talking about like the monstrous
flesh part invites a queer reading, but

I mean, in the way that a lot of these
horror movies talk about the other, Right?

And then a lot of, when you have a lot
of queer viewers that relate to the, the

other in, in these horror movies, and I, I
kind of put myself in the, in Cronenberg's

shoes in this case where I'm like, if
I wanna talk about like weird monstrous

sexuality and some weird flesh shit and
like very off putting shit, I don't wanna

incorporate like the actual literal,
emotional, and very profound queerness

of actual people's queer relationships
because it's more than just the sexuality.

And I feel like in a lot of cases the
queer identity has been equated with this

monstrous sexuality with people who are
very homophobic and very queer phobic.

So I feel like it would be really,
really weird to incorporate the kind of

flesh monster essence that Cronenberg
discusses with his like weird horny

flesh monsters and have characters
literally be queer unless they were

like completely unrelated to whatever
the flesh monster situation is.

Does that make sense?

Ben: If I'm understanding,
you're saying pretty much that.

It's maybe a good thing that there
hasn't been more queer characters

given what else he explores it
could come across real easily.

Is queerness being monsterized.

Emily: Yes.

Thank you.

Yeah, exactly.

Jeremy: I think it's a fine balance
cause I think there is something to

that, but also David Cronenberg has
been making movies for a long time and

at some point it's like, Oh, the first
50 years of X-Men, it's a metaphor,

but at some point it seems like
maybe you should have a queer X-Men.

Ben: Also, I know queer audiences.

I absolutely believe we will reclaim
like the Flesh Monster and like

call it a Queen and tell it to slay.

Emily: Yeah.

Ben: Did you see what we did with Scarlet
Witch after melody of melody of madness

Emily: Merry Melody Of Madness?

Can someone do that?

Please?

Do you like a LooneyTunes version of that?

I mean, we already have uh, Sam Raimy.

Jeremy: The scene where they're
throwing musical notes at each

other is basically that, isn't it?

Right.

Ben: Look at what we
did with the Babadook.

And that's not even the movie.

That's just a Netflix glitch
that we ran away with.

Megan: That- don't forget about M3GAN.

I mean, I don't know if you guys have seen
that trailer that's what's on the horizon.

Emily: Oh yes.

Megan: That's for queer audiences.

Ben: You, you just know that's
gonna be covered on this podcast.

Emily: Oh my God.

I can't wait.

Megan: I'm getting, I'm
gonna get a fake idea.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna change my name
to M three GaN and I can't wait.

I'm gonna embrace it.

I'm gonna learn the dance.

I'm ready.

You gotta find,

Jeremy: Oh yes, that dress somewhere.

Megan: Mm-hmm.

Ben: So I like that this punk
movie explicitly brought.

Lamarckian Inheritance and
how it is absolute nonsense.

Just so it could then
go, but shut the fuck up.

Emily: Actually.

But it happened though.

So.

Ben: Cause you know, like, I feel
like Cronenberg was writing this movie

and he had a moment where he is like,
Fucking God damn Neil deGrasse Tyson

is gonna fucking tweet about
Lamarckian inheritance as if I

don't know that it's bullshit.

So I better write a fucking
scene or that, that asshole's

gonna start tweeting at my movie.

Emily: Neil, Neil deGrasse
Tyson is a physicist.

He's not a fucking genetic scientist.

Ben: Neil deGrasse Tyson is a
full-time Twitter party pooper.

Emily: What?

Let let him do his thing.

I don't care.

Jeremy: Guys.

You remember when Neil
deGrasse Tyson was cool.

Ben: Now he's just like, Actually
Tom Cruise was moving too fast

out of the airplane and he
would've died in Top Gun Maverick.

And it's like, Cool.

Thanks Neil.

Emily: Yeah, I know stop's was wrong.

But it's okay because it's gay.

Like, I don't care.

Ben: Guys, did you know Antman
couldn't breathe at that

because he is being too small.

It's like, Thanks, Neil.

Emily: He made the air molecule
smaller too, as part of it.

Yep.

As part of it.

Ben: We should probably cut this
weird rant about Neil deGrasse Tyson.

Keep the initial joke.

I feel that was solid, but
then after that, maybe.

Jeremy: No, I'm ready to start
our beef with Neil deGrasse Tyson.

I think podcast has gone too long
without a beef with a major physicist.

Ben: Neil deGrasse Tyson.

Emily: Yeah.

Ben: Come back on the show.

We'll do Event Horizon again.

I will totally do Event Horizon
again with, with Neil deGrasse Tyson,

just him screaming the whole time.

What if we save sunshine for when we
can get Neil deGrasse Tyson on the show?

Emily: Oh God.

There's so many more movies.

That would be, but he's
probably already done that.

Anyway.

I do wanna know what Neil deGrasse
Tyson thinks about like these chairs.

And this furniture.

Again, this is more of a biology
standpoint, but like I get that the chairs

are constantly moving to make it so like
you're constantly growing cancer organs

or whatever are like in the right spot.

Ben: No, I think it's like supposed
to be like he's just in so much pain

and he struggles with stuff that it's
like, I think, again, I might be totally

wrong, the same idea that certain like
Parkinson's treatment equipment is

supposed to like reduce or compensate for

Emily: Oh yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Ben: Shakes and Tremors.

I think it's supposed to be that
idea to like a system in the

shoeing and swallowing process
that he otherwise struggles with.

But also my big thing with those scenes
is that orange and green goo looked real

gross and Viggo Mortensen puts it in his
mouth quite a few times in this movie.

What was that actually?

Like what did they actually
make Viggo Mortensen eat?

Emily: It looked like an omelet
or, No, actually it looked like,

like a creme brulee or something.

Or some kind of like, uh,
custard with salmon eggs in it.

It may have been leche bobba
though, which are actually sweet.

So that would've been less like upsetting.

Ben: Again.

I have a lot of questions for Viggo
more cuz I feel like so much of

filming of this movie just must have
been like, physically uncomfortable.

Emily: And that that's where the,
commentary on comfort with one's own

body and aging and the effects of I don't
know, changes whether they be external

or internal and your agency over that.

You know, I, I feel like that's where
that connected with me also, because-.

Ben: Oh shit movies about puberty too.

Fuck another theme.

Emily: I mean, Sure.

Ben: I'm just, just body going
through changes as you can't control.

Emily: Yeah.

But I mean-.

Jeremy: I'd like to say, apparently,
like reading up on this, apparently

Viggo Mortenson was, was injured for
most of the making of this movie.

He had quad trauma due to being kicked
by a horse at the Kentucky Derby.

Ben: Okay.

As if that doesn't raise
a hundred other questions.

Emily: Right.

Jeremy: A non-participating
horse at the Kentucky Derby.

Ben: Well, I'm sorry.

Another of like 50 questions!

Jeremy: Apparently as a result of
that, he couldn't stand for more

than two minutes at a time, which
is why he is constantly kneeling and

laying and sitting in this movie.

Ben: It works really well for
the film and really sells this

like tortured artistic genius.

Like, I really like that In this world
where no one feels pain, the most

famous is like this artist who does.

And also, again, so many questions.

What was that horse doing
at the Kentucky Derby?

Why was Viggo Mortensen around that horse?

Who started it?

Who fucked with who first?

I have had so many questions!

Emily: I will say he's
perching throughout the film.

And then like everyone else
started perching with him and I'm

like, is this like, is this just
part of the the future crimes?

Jeremy: In the future we
just perch everywhere.

Emily: Everyone perches?

I'm screwed!

Ben: That like this guy is just so
constantly like at war with whatever

his body is trying to become, that
he is just like constantly like

hunched over, can't quite walk,
needs all this specialized equipment.

So to me, like I interpreted and
now partly because the one like

non-evolved human we saw eat the
plastic candy bar started vomiting

and dying like immediately.

So to me, just like the length
of seconds that go by before like

where without him vomiting and
exploding from the purple candy bar

makes me think that he survived it.

But to me it just reads as like,
This guy's rejection of himself and

what his body is wanting to be is
like, it's not the organs growing

that's making him feeble and in pain.

It's him constantly cutting them out
and forcing them to regrow that's

making it do so, and that, you know,
the smile and the single tear that him

embracing whatever it is he's becoming
is this relief from that pain that he's

just been physically and emotionally
just so racked with the whole movie.

It certainly, apparently for real,
because Viggo Mortensen filmed the

whole thing in, in excruciating pain.

Emily: Yeah.

I mean, it, it does feel like
a moment of freedom, which I

think is carried pretty well.

Like I, I get that pretty clearly.

Ben: Which maybe is meant to be
relief and dying, but I don't know.

I just feel like, I know it's supposed
to be Inception, ambiguous ending, but

I read it as a little bit just like.

Well, the other guy definitely
started vomiting by now.

So , uh, Megan, how'd
you interpret the ending?

Megan: Yeah, no, I, The ending for
me was one of the most frustrating

moments because I, like I said,
the one thing that I took away

from this was how careful it was.

And I know that he was
being careful in the ending.

I know it was considered, but I was
like, You're gonna really, you're

gonna choose this opportunity to just
like, leave it kind of ambiguous.

You're gonna just choose
to not say the thing here.

So I think that was a little
disagreement that David Cronenberg

and I have about his movie that he
made and spent a lot of time on.

But, you know, I, yeah, I , I
was a little frustrated by it.

I understand why it was there.

I understand the function of it.

I understand what he thought about it.

Yeah, that didn't work for me.

And the other thing that really didn't
work for me, Ben, was something that

you touched on, which was the inner
beauty pageant never coming back.

I did-.

Ben: Never came back.

Never had any relevance.

Megan: Yeah.

I, I finally made peace with it because I
was, I was like, I don't think it's what

David Cronenberg is trying to say, but
what I think I got of it, got out of it

was like, no matter what you're doing,
there's always gonna be this one really

weird guy who's just making it weirder.

Emily: Yeah.

I

Ben: Like that's like, Yeah.

The big twist with Willit, Is that like
I'm running it and it's like, Yeah, okay.

Emily: Running what?

This thing, That's weird.

Okay.

Like in her beauty
page, apparently it sus.

Ben: Part of me wants to think like, Oh,
maybe this was like from a plotline that

was in like a longer like original cut,
like assembly cut that again got cut down.

But I'm like, I don't think
Cronenberg fucking cut a

goddamn thing from this movie.

Emily: I think that there
were things that were cut.

I will, I will say that there were
probably, there were ideas in the

very, very early stages of the story
because there is a huge, there is

a lot of things going on in this
movie that we sort of barely dip

into that still I feel are important.

Like the, the inner beauty pageant
is probably the, on the bottom

of the list of things that are,
that are relevant to the story.

But the noir thing I think is important.

You know, the, the
zipper guy is important.

The one thing that-.

Jeremy: The zipper guy doesn't
end up mattering either.

Ben: Like for Yeah.

Jeremy: Doctor-.

Emily: I think he, he
matters was just it, but.

Ben: That was just to facilitate
one fucking weird as hell Sex scene

.
Jeremy: That one was the only part
of this movie that I had trouble

watching was her un zippering him
and licking his internal organs.

I was looking around.

No, thank you.

Emily: Oh, and him being like,
Don't let him fall out or whatever.

Jeremy: I, it, it's interesting you guys
talking about the structure of this movie,

cuz that was one thing that I was thinking
of coming out of it because I think what

the movie is, feels like it's trying to
be, especially in those last minutes, is

like, The Biopunk version of Blade Runner.

Like it wants to be the version
of, of that where it's like, maybe

I am this thing that's sort of the
replacement of humanity as we know it.

Like May, Maybe that's
the thing I I've become.

And it wants to leave it
ambiguous in the same way.

But also I think like you were talking
about, there's a lot of aspects to

this movie that feel like it's a
much bigger world that he cares a lot

about and wants to do more stuff with.

And it feels like this world should be
David Cronenberg's Twin Peaks and instead

it's like, he just made fire walk with me.

Like that's the only
thing he made is a movie.

Ben: That's a great way of putting it.

Emily: That is a really
good way of putting it.

Ben: This feels like a world that could
be, and honestly probably should be

subject to so much more exploration.

Emily: And this German expressionist
backdrop of everything.

Like , It's so good.

The setting is so good.

All the art direction is so good and
it's like it so visually it is a feast.

Ben: Oh yeah.

Jeremy: It does seem like Terry McGinness
Batman Beyond May drop into this movie.

At any moment though,
I feeling every the summer

Ben: the ear guy.

So I think it seems like for as much
as this movie is very thoughtful and

deliberate and does have a lot to say, I
think we're kind of, of the consensus that

for as much as this movie has to say, and
as deep as it goes on certain subjects

issues of gender and feminist issues
are a bit of a blind spot for this film.

Emily: Yes.

This is not a feminist film.

This, this is a film with no
LGBTQIA plus representation.

Unless you count.

Ben: Except, except what you force
by virtue of Kristen Stewart.

Emily: Yeah.

Except for, for what you project.

Jeremy: It certainly doesn't have
anything thoughtful to say about race.

Yeah.

Like we do have a black character.

Emily: Yeah.

Yeah.

At least.

But it's not, there's not, Yeah.

There's no, like, who's right?

I,

Ben: I enjoyed Detective Cope.

I thought he was a, a fun-.

Emily: Detective cop?

Ben: D Oh, well his name
really is Detective Cop.

Well.

That's why you get paid
the Big Bucks Cronenberg.

But no, I did very much like that actor.

I just felt he was a, a very uh,
charismatic presence in the role.

And yeah, again, serve that very,
that noir puppet master kind of,

you can't face of the system that
can't be beat kind of character.

Emily: Actually with the, with Detective
Cup and Whip It and Saul Tensor and

Caprice, the names of these characters
are all really tongue in cheek.

So there's our classic
Cronenberg humor right there.

The rest of the movie is decidedly
unfunny, unless you're talking about

like those kind of peep show awkward.

And I'm talking about the, the television
program, Peep Show awkwardness that

is like almost bad enough that you
want to crawl out of your skin.

So that's that.

We haven't talked about child very much.

We think that we should because it's
kind of a really important part of

this movie that's really upsetting.

Ben: Oh, the kid dying.

Emily: Well, we have, We, this movie
starts out with the, the mother murdering

her child and blaming the child, saying
that the child is a creature that was

created, invented by her ex-husband.

Ben: Look, she really hates Legion of
superheroes as we've established that.

Sure.

Had either allowed, had to go.

Yeah.

Her.

Okay.

No, that's not me defending child murder.

That's not very progressive at all.

Jeremy: Yeah, I feel like, I mean,
we'll certainly talk about this in

brood and probably other things, but
like women having cold detachment

from things they should feel emotional
towards, including their own children

is kind of a Cronenberg thing.

Emily: Um, Yeah.

Jeremy: That like I don't
know that it means anything

in this movie other than that.

Like it's just the thing he needs to do to
set the plot in motion at the beginning.

And though the mom, even though
she shows back up, does not

prove to be much of a character.

And honestly, neither is Scott
Speedman and I don't know how much

of that is to do with him being Scott
Speedman and how its the right thing.

Ben: That's the thing though, like
the mom and Scott Speedman, like you

could switch those roles very easily.

It's a very deliberate choice to have
the mother be the destructive force

and the father be the loving supportive
presence who like passed on the future.

Like that's, that's fucking it.

Like if it wasn't intentional,
it's too much of a blind spot.

Emily: Yeah.

Yeah.

The, the mother being this
character with very little she's,

again, her performance is great.

Ben: Well, she has agency.

She's had plenty of
agency murdering Oh, sure.

In her child.

Emily: Yeah.

But she, she isn't terribly explored.

She's just unremorseful about, and
she's completely dehumanizing of her

child, which is also, like it's weirdly
aside, like I, I feel like there's a

lot of commentary, but there's the,
the whole evolution revolution is

so kind of aside from the character
driven stuff that's going on with the

Saul and uh, Caprice and everybody.

I think it's really cool.

I, in terms of like just a different
perspective on that, it does water

down any sort of message about that.

Other than how, you know, that has managed
to get through to Viggo Mortensen's

character, despite him feeling so
detached from it and in certain ways

actively separating himself and, being
aggressive towards that as he is like

working with the uh, the new vice.

Yeah, it's complicated.

And I love that shit, but again,
I cannot say that it is saying

anything progressive in any like,
really profound or, or powerful way.

Jeremy: Um, Yeah, I wish I had been
in the room when David Cronenberg

found out about how fly spit
disintegrates almost anything.

And how that's how they eat because
apparently that had a lasting effect

on him, which has shown up several
times of his films to be a fly on

the wall when he found that out.

Ben: I see what you did there.

Emily: I would not wanna be a fly on
the wall cuz he would be looking at

me more than I'd be looking at him.

Ben: Oh.

To be a Jeff Goldblum on the wall.

Emily: You know how I
feel about that, but.

Ben: It's still crazy to me.

The first time I saw Annie Hall
and Jeff Goldblum just shows up

for like a fucking 22nd appearance.

And I thought it had to be like, he's
already famous and it's a cameo, not

like way before he was famous, like
he, like nothing of an actor because

he is just so immediately hysterical.

You can't see him in that movie,
in that one scene he has without

being like, Who the fuck is that?

Um, Sorry, that's my little Jeff
Goldblum aside, even though he has

nothing to do with that episode.

And I should have just saved
the Annie Hall bit for The Fly.

Oh, that's, Oh, well I shot my shot early.

Emily: Well, you can, you can always edit
and we can do it through the fly episode.

Ben: There you go.

Emily: Now, how do, how do we
feel about the, the climax of

this film being the grotesquely
displayed organs of the dead child?

Ben: I wish they'd put
underwear on the child.

Yes.

Yeah.

Jeremy: That was no big one's.

Really not, not what I'm here for.

I mean, presumably at that point
it wasn't the real child anyway.

But still, I mean, I
don't, I don't need that.

Ben: Yeah, I hope so.

Otherwise that, like, if that,
if that was the real child and it

didn't violate any labor laws, it
a thousand percent should have.

So I'm gonna say that it had to
have been a dummy, but also-.

Emily: And that was absolutely a dummy.

Ben: I didn't wanna see
also, I, I don't care.

It was a good enough dummy.

Put underwear on it.

Emily: Yeah, these movies are so erotic.

And we got a lot of naked ladies
and a lot of the male gaze, but we

don't have any hogs of like, Viggo
Mortensen, or I don't know who else.

Jeremy: I mean, we see all
of the, Except for his hog.

Ben: Yes.

Which is unacceptable
when you think about it.

Emily: Yeah.

I think that, that is, is unfair.

You know, that's, that's not
good representation right there.

Especially like, again, we talk about

Ben: we should have gotten
to see it's a binary.

I mean, that's like my only, like
my second Lord of the Rings joke.

I've been pretty like
austere about them tonight.

I could've been way worse.

You don't

Emily: toss it.

Jeremy: I mean, we don't, we don't get
to see his shirts of nale, so, you know.

That's good.

Anyway, guys what do we think is, do
we recommend people see this movie?

Is it worth watching?

Ben: Oh, fuck yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, maybe you gotta be on
absolute fucking weirdo, but I

sure as fuck had a great time.

Emily: If you like Cronenberg, watch it.

If you don't like Cronenberg.

Yes.

Ben: Is this a thumbs up or a thumbs down?

End of the day?

I guess, I know enjoyment
didn't matter, but-.

Megan: Yeah.

To me, to me that's, that's my metric.

If you're somebody who can go into
a movie and be like, My enjoyment

is separate from whether or not, I
will feel like I got something out

of this, then yes, give it a shot.

Maybe you'll be one of those
people that walked out.

Like all the people at the film festival.

Emily: When did they walk out?

Ben: Checks out.

That?

I believe that.

Emily: I wanna know when.

Ben: Did hear, I didn't hear about that,
but I find it extremely believable.

Jeremy: I don't know who goes
to a Cronenberg movie and then

walks out because it's too weird.

Like.

Ben: There is a certain element
of you should know what you're in

for, but people are dumb like that.

So.

Emily: If they, if they walked out
during the, the child autopsy, I would

understand though, which is kind of
interesting because that's sort of the

point, which I think, I can't tell.

I can't decide.

And I think this is, again, like you
said, Megan, like the, when you're not

sure, you know, when, when you're still
thinking about the movie at this point,

I think that that's an artistic success.

Whether it's an important or
profound artistic success, you

know, we're not sure that mm-hmm.

The, that whole bit of the movie
being the most upsetting part of

the movie and it being about the
art being incredibly upsetting.

I feel like it's either it was
either smart or it was a cop out, and

I'm rapidly going between the two.

But either way, I feel like
it's worth considering.

Ben: If people are walking out though.

Again, that's why I love this movie,
Beginning with Incomprehensible

Garbage Can Eating slash Child Murder.

Cuz right away it's like either
you're on board for this,

like Carnival of Weirdness.

Or just like, you just
gotta get the hell out.

And I appreciate that.

It lets you know right off the
bat and doesn't try to lull you

in or waste too much of your time.

Like, I imagine that like if
you're walking out, you're being

like, I'm three minutes in.

Cool.

Thanks for saving me like an afternoon.

Mm-hmm.

Emily: I will say that, that that whole
60 seconds of that kid on the beach

was basically like, that was all of
the, the scariness that Old tried to

create and failed with an entire film.

I don't know.

Yeah.

Ben: Old failed.

I feel like failure.

That should just be the
quote on the DVD box.

Emily: This is bad.

I think like called bad

Jeremy: for me with this movie.

It's like you said,
it's a lot of vibes and.

Ultimately it didn't work for me.

It's one of those things that like,
were there not a near infinite number

of movies and TV shows and things coming
out almost constantly at this point.

And I'd be like, Yeah, you know,
it's worth your time to check it out.

But like, I think, I think if, if
you've to us talk about it or you, you

know, at this point you probably know
whether or not it's it's for you or not.

And yeah, if you if those first
few minutes uh, you know, tick

a box for you, then that's it.

For me.

Like it was, I was rarely like,
disgusted by the movie, but

like it didn't click for me.

And especially early in the movie,
I found it to be pretty sleepy.

And maybe some of that is the
like very slow and stylized

delivery of a lot of the dialogue.

Maybe it's Howard Shore's slow pulsating
score underneath all of it that,

like, didn't do it for me either.

But like ultimately it was like,
yeah, it's, it's not for me.

And I'm sure like there are
people for whom, for whom it is.

But yeah.

Not not my thing.

I wouldn't, I would not recommend it.

But going from there we should find
some things to recommend beyond this.

Megan, what, what do you
have to recommend to people?

Megan: You know, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna
go a little bit of the obvious route

and go with the other Kristen Stewart
movie that came out recently this year.

And if you haven't seen
Spencer go see that.

I do feel like you might get
on more out of it than than I

did from Crimes of the Future.

But another very deliberate
performance by Kristen Stewart.

A polarizing one for sure.

But something that I found that I
enjoyed a lot and got a lot out of.

Emily: So talented.

Nice.

Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

Jeremy: And I've heard
interesting things about that one.

Emily, what about you?

Emily: Cronenberg is Cronenberg and
you could check out a Cronenberg

movie, but if you want a movie that
incorporates all of the Cronenberg

weird flesh monsters, but is like a
fun little slice of life, high school

story check out the movie Funky Forest.

It's a Japanese film and it's a bunch
of vignettes about people or these

kids in a high school and they just
are doing various high school like club

related things, but it's all involving
some weird Cronenbergian monsters.

It is unlike anything
else you will ever see.

except for maybe Cronenberg.

But the delivery is really deadpan and I
just look it up, look it up on YouTube.

There's a bunch of clips on YouTube.

Hideaki Anno Is in it as
an as, as a character.

It's like a cameo, so
you know, that's a thing.

But yeah, it's called Funky Forest.

And it's very weird.

So, you know, watch out.

Jeremy: Right on.

Ben, what about you?

Ben: I also recommend Funky
Forest, but I'm referring to Forest

Whitaker's seventies tribute album.

Emily: Is it Safe?

Ben: Yeah.

No.

I recommend AMC's new show,
Interview with the Vampire.

It is wonderful.

It is bloody.

It is queer.

It is sexy.

It is real, real gay.

It is funny.

It is dark.

It is the messy gay gothic vampire
romance that if you're listening to

this show, I know you need in your life.

So AMC's interview of the Vampire.

Jeremy: Nice.

So yeah, I had uh, I've been doing
scary movie month stuff, watching a

lot of horror movies and boy I hit a
slew of horror movies this last week

that were very much not my thing.

I, I seem to remember Emily uh,
loved mad God very much not my thing.

uh, I watched the Poughkeepsie
tapes, which you'll, you guys might

remember STS recommended to us way
back when they were on the program.

Yes, I hated that movie.

Didn't, did not dig.

I even got mad at the, or watch the
original Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

It's like a beloved, one of the, you
know, top horror movies of all times.

And the ending doesn't make a damn bit
of sense just to put that out there.

So finally, I, like, I was getting
mad and depressed at my series of,

of movies that I did not enjoy.

So I took to the internet and I was
just like, Hey guys, I just want a

movie where like a creature tries to
kill some people and it's a horror

movie and it's kind of enjoyable.

And uh, our friend, Benito Sereno
recommended the uh, Shutter

original dead stream to me.

Now Dead Stream is about a guy who is
a uh, online streamer who has a channel

where he uh, goes on and does a bunch
of crazy stunts to face his fears.

And he has at the beginning of the
movie uh, been canceled for something

that he has done on one of his He's
been demonetized and he is just now

getting back into like having sponsors
and being able to make money streaming.

And the only way he is doing this is
he is putting himself in a position

where he is uh, going into a haunted
house and spending the night there.

So goes in and sets up a bunch
of like cameras and uh, decides

he's gonna spend the night.

At this, this haunted house
and try and make it through.

As you might guess,
things go horribly wrong.

This movie is incredibly funny and still
has some like, jump scares in there.

The main character is enough of
a asshole that like, it's fun to

watch the house torture him to some
extent even if you will eventually

find yourself like rooting for him.

But it's a ton of fun.

It's all of like 87 minutes.

It's like that relief of like, if
you've seen one too many you know, one

too many Baba Dukes and Poughkeepsie
tapes and Crimes of the Future through

your, your holiday watching Uh, this is
one that's like a nice, very palatable

87 minutes and, and you'll come out
of it like having had a good time.

Emily: Festive.

Yeah.

.
Jeremy: Yeah, it's, it's Halloween.

But yeah, that was that's it for us.

I do want uh, Megan, can you let people
know where they can find you and find

out more about what you do online?

Megan: Of course.

Uh, The easiest way is probably Twitter.

I'm just at Megan Logan, spelled without
any unnecessary vowels or consonants.

Emily: Straightforward to the point.

Megan: I am gonna change it to M three
GaN though, so, get me before I do that.

Okay.

Yeah.

.
Jeremy: Awesome.

As for the rest of us, you can find Emily
at Mega Moth on Twitter at mega underscore

moth on Instagram and at megamoth.net.

Uh, Ben is on Twitter at Ben the Kahn and
on their website at benkahncomics.com.

And uh, finally as for me.

You can find me on Twitter and
Instagram at JRome five eight and

on my website at jeremywhitley.com.

Uh, And of course, the
podcast is on Patreon.

At progressively horrified our
website, progressively horrified

transistor.fm and on Twitter at prog
horror pod where we would love to

hear from you any feedback you have.

If you wanna tell me how wrong I
am about uh, Crimes of the Future,

you're more than welcome to.

You won't be the first one.

Emily: You could tell us we're wrong too.

You could tell Ben and
me that we're wrong.

I mean, it's valid.

Yeah.

Ben: Yeah.

I mean, My self-esteem is not high.

You would win an argument with me.

Emily: I, I will totally throw you though.

I will keep eye contact and, and
nod and just not say anything.

Ben: Oh, I'm real good at giving
there's like the blank, like dead

eye stare where it's like, no
reaction and just wait, just for.

Just the no reaction to creep 'em out
until like I get myself out of the jam.

Jeremy: Honestly, that horrible eating
chair is the best representation I've

seen of what it's like to be on Twitter

.
Emily: That's.

Jeremy: Just trying to eat.

And speaking of love to hear from you.

We would love it if you'd
rate and review the podcast

wherever you're listening to it.

Give us five stars, help us
find more listeners out there.

And thanks again to Megan for joining us.

It was great to have you.

Megan: Of course.

Thank, Thanks so much, Y'all.

This was a great.

This was more fun than
the movie by a lot for me.

Emily: Ah!

That's why I like doing this show.

Ben: Yes.

Yeah, that does tend to happen a
lot, especially with the movies you

don't enjoy so much of the movies.

Jeremy: I'm glad that we were
doing this for the podcast, cuz I

did feel the need to talk about it
with somebody after watching it.

Emily: Agreed.

Yeah.

Megan: I watched this while my
girlfriend was out of town and

I was like, I have never felt
like I had made such a good move.

she would've hated it.

Emily: Ah.

Jeremy: Yeah.

My wife wouldn't have made it
through uh, the boy being killed

in the first five minutes.

She would've been like, Right.

Ben: Alicia.

Alicia would've been out immediately.

Emily: Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Jeremy: Yeah.

Thanks to all of you for listening.

We will see you next week and
until next time, stay horrified.

Emily: Oh.

Alicia: Progressively horrified
was created by Jeremy Whitley

and produced by Alicia Whitley.

This episode featured Jeremy
Ben, Emily, and special guest.

Megan Logan.

All opinions expressed by the
commentators are solely their own

and do not represent the intent or
opinion of the filmmakers nor do they

represent the employers, institutions,
or publishers of the commentators.

Our theme music is epic darkness
by Mario Coolo six and was

provided royalty free from Pixabay.

If you liked this episode,
you can support us on Patrion.

You can also get in touch with us on
twitter at ProgHorrorPod or by email

at progressivelyhorrified@gmail.com.

Thanks for listening.

Bye.